Categories: Need to know

Israel attacks aid convoy to Gaza

UPDATED: Israel claims self-defense as critics deplore violence

by macleans.ca on Monday, May 31, 2010 10:36am - 230 Comments

At least 19 people are dead and dozens more injured after Israeli troops attacked a convoy of ships in international waters bringing humanitarian aid to Gaza, Al Jazeera is reporting. The flotilla was attacked 65 km off the Gaza coast as it aimed to break Israel’s siege on Gaza. The flotilla left Cyprus on Sunday to reach Gaza by Monday morning, but Israel claimed the boats were engaged in an “act of provocation” against the Israeli military instead of providing aid, and that it issued warrants to prohibit their entrance, noting that the flotilla would be breaking international law by landing there. Organizers, mostly pro-Palestinian advocates from the UK, Ireland, Algeria, Kuwait, Greece and Turkey, rejected this claim. Israeli military spokesperson Avital Leibovich said: “This happened in waters outside of Israeli territory, but we have the right to defend ourselves.” Al Jazeera’s correspondent said a white surrender flag was coming from the ship and there was no live fire coming from the passengers.

UPDATE: The BBC is now reporting “at least” nine people are dead after armed Israeli forces boarded an aid vessel carrying 500 people overnight some 40 miles out to sea. Israel says its soldiers were attacked with axes, knives, bars and guns when they boarded the ship, with government spokesperson Mark Regev saying the activists onboard “were dead-set on confrontation.” “”Live fire was used against our forces,” Regev said. “They initiated the violence, that’s 100% clear.” The aid convoy’s organizers, however, say the attack by Israeli soldiers was unprovoked. “We heard some of them shouting ‘we are raising the white flag, stop shooting at us’,” said Arafat Shoukri of the Free Gaza Movement, who was on the phone with those onboard.

The incident was met with protests around the world, including a strongly worded condemnation from Turkish Prime Minister Recep Tayyip Erdogan, who called Israel’s actions “inhumane state terrorism.” Most of the nine dead are believed to have been from Turkey. Meanwhile, Greece, Egypt, Sweden, Spain and Denmark summoned Israel’s ambassadors demanding explanations for the violence, while Spain and France condemned what they called the disproportionate use of force. The UN Security Council is meeting to discuss the violence, with one Western diplomat suggesting council members may adopt a statement voicing their shock at the incident and possibly backing UN secretary-general Ban Ki-moon’s call for an investigation.

Rarsa

New line of defense for Somali pirates: "We boarded the ship and they attacked us, so we had to shoot"

Israel's arguments are as ridiculous as that.

The fact is Israeli soldiers attacked the ship, the people on board defended themselves.

The only argument here would be "who initiated the hostility?". Was it the ships bringing non-aid items? or was it the Israeli army boarding an aid ship?

Salims

So…. of 7 total ships, that were supposed to have the same agenda…. one ship just happens to have arms and attacks the Isreali soldiers, whereas all the others stood down. I don't understand how you can use that argument. That's just a close minded belief to try and portray, like everyone else, Isreal under a negative light.

rarsa

I'm glad that you have all the facts. I do not.

I do not know that one of the ship had weapons. I do know that the IDF boarded the ships with weapons and can be seen using them.

Again, its arguable who started the provocation. What is not arguable is that the IDF boarded, shoot and the people on board defended themselves.

That's not antisemitism, I am sure that many people in Israel are outraged that their government does something like that.

Jon

Israelis only acted after being attacked. IT IS A BLOCKADE. They boarded because thats what you do when a blockade is penetrated. Where does it ever say that the IDF shot first? That is something that is unfortunately assumed

Jon

there is a video that has been posted showing an attack on the IDF soldiers before the IDF attacked. [youtube bU12KW-XyZE&has_verified=1 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bU12KW-XyZE&has_verified=1 youtube]
Trent H.

Attacked,in international waters?They boarded a ship in international waters,that is not even theirs and they were attacked,haha!!
rarsa

Is this "Blockade" legal under international law?

Trent H.

Do you not get it?Antisemitism is when you say what the Jews and Zionists do not want you to say.It is also when you don`t do what the Zionists and the Jews do not hear or get what they want.Even saying is antisemitism.Anything you do they do not like is anti-semtism.Even saying this is anti-semitic,everything is.
les1958

Rarsa- Watch the videos of the IDF boarding the ship .They are attcked on the spot.Do you really think these so called peace activists would be attacking with pipes chairs poles and firebombs if the Israeli army was shooting first? They would be running and ducking for cover. What is not arguable from eveidence that I have viewed is that they soldiers were attacked before any violence .This lies squarely on the idiots on board who attacked the army thinking what? nothing would happen?

rarsa

We may be watching the same video but coming to different conclusions. That is the problem with personal bias even when we try to be objective.

Objectively I see the IDF boarding a ship in international waters carrying loaded weapons. The rest can be left to interpretation.

So would you put some blame on the soldiers boarding the ship, thinking, what? nothing would happen?

I do not know the facts so I haven't placed blame. Just saying what I see on those videos.

chet

See the video I posted below, of the "totally peaceable, peacefue peace activists" savagely beating IDF guys coming down the ropes, with pipes chairs (and according to accompanying reports gunfire).

A sixpack says you (and many others here) simply refuse to look at the video.

Jon

i forget who quoted this at the beginning of the comments, but, "Israel, the only country in the world not allowed to defend itself"

chet

i did

Kaya

Shame Israel!
Shame on you.

http://intensedebate.com/people/citizen_CA citizen_CA

Shame on the activists who were offered help by the Israeli government to deliver their "aid" vial a land route.
http://intensedebate.com/people/Viva_Vivian Viva_Vivian

Yes, shame on those soldiers who retaliated after they and their comrades were beaten down by the peaceniks with metal bars. For shame.
http://intensedebate.com/people/A_READER_ A_READER_

shame belongs with the provacures, the flotillia and the leftist idiot drones of MSM.

bahahahahahah dumb sheeple.

Jon

The only thing that succeeds in pissing me off the most is people ignoring following a belief without knowing the history of the conflict or the reasons for it. Read credible news sources, ones that portray many opinions, and then form your own.

Jon

this is directed towards KAyan

Jon

*Kaya

http://intensedebate.com/people/citizen_CA citizen_CA

When there is graffiti declaring death to the infidels, and non-Muslims are too scared to stand up to Muslims shouting death to non-Muslims, then yes, the country is slowly in the process of being taken over. I think it is more idiotic that you have placed a consonant after your "a" when one was not needed.

Holly Stick

I bet you know nothing about Scotland. Posting fromn Israel, are you?

http://intensedebate.com/people/citizen_CA citizen_CA

Have I been there? No. But I know several people from there. Yes you got me. That is why I have a CANADIAN flag as my profile pic. Following your logic, I must ask, are you posting from Palestine?

Holly Stick

Israeli agents and others have a habit of abusing Canadian passports:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canadian_passport#No…
http://www.thecanadianencyclopedia.com/index.cfm?…

citizen_CA

So, are you accusing me, or cautioning me?
Mark

Viva_Vivian… here you are calling citizen_CA a Israeli-hating… blah blah blah.

How can you justify blockading a country for 3 years… and treating the civilians like dogs.

Pull your damn head out of your rear already…..

Israel deserves a glove slap.
Mark – from Canada.
Minotaure

"How can you justify blockading a country for 3 years… and treating the civilians like dogs."

Really Mark? A country? You've got to be kidding, right? How can you be appologetic of a brutal terrorist regime's stranglehold on a civilian population which happens to have found themselves trapped in the coastal region designated as the Gaza Strip?
citizen_CA

Actually she was calling Holly that, and rightly so. As for the blockading, if the rockets and suicide bombers were not a constant threat, there probably would not be a blockade. What would you do if there was somebody shooting at your house every once in a while? I'm sure you would come up with measures to defend yourself. A blockade is better than the alternative: having an outright war with the Palestinians.
Holly Stick

What would you do if someone stole your land and destroyed your home and murdered your children? Israel should stop whining about being a victim and provide compensation to the Palestinians,
citizen_CA

1. I would not start murdering innocent people.
2. The land was not stolen, but won in a war. It happens all the time (ie. Canada, US, basically all of Europe and Russia have lands that they "stole"/won through war.
3. The Jews lived in the region prior to the Palestinians. So technically it is their homeland.
4. Israel has been providing aid, even though they are being bombed by the ones they are giving it to.
5. Israel has tried on numerous occasions to come to a peace deal, but it seems like Hamas always tried/tries to disrupt it (rockets/bombings), or the Palestinians change their minds and say they want more.
6. Maybe the Palestinians should stop whining, and accept that they lost, and that if Israel wanted to completely remove them from Palestine they could!
Viva_Vivian

Excuse me? Jews have been systematically driven from countries all throughout Europe and the Middle East for centuries, from Portugal to Germany and the rest. They have never asked for reparations for any number of the atrocities committed on them including the mother of all genocides, the Holocaust, which is second only to the dessimation of the African diaspora during slave-trading. Speaking of the African diaspora, I don't see the black community demanding reparations or repatriation to their home lands. The only group that demands these things, whether they are Palestinian or not, are the fanatical, Jew-hating Muslims — on pain of death! If we lived next door to any number of the Nations of Islam you would not be making these dead wrong assertions. But I guess it's easier not to put yourself in the shoes of the Israelis and point the finger.

Lastly, they stole the land, did they? That's a new one.
http://intensedebate.com/people/Viva_Vivian Viva_Vivian

I never called CA_citizen an Israli-hating anything. He or she is one of the few objective posters commenting here. I was clearly speaking abouy Holly Slick.

You're the one who needs to pull his head out of his rear.

Vivian – from Canada

http://intensedebate.com/people/Canuckguy Canuckguy

Holly, Holly, Holly, Citizen CA is right concerning the creeping Islamization thing. You, my poor stupid woman, are wrong. Please give your head a shake. I don't know about Scotland in particular but what he says is true for several of the European countries including the UK.

http://intensedebate.com/people/Viva_Vivian Viva_Vivian

It's true for the whole world. Demography doesn't lie.

chet

Video of the peacibly peaceful "peace activitsts"…

beating the he** out of the IDF guys with metal pipes (and throwing them overboard) as they board the ship to inspect.

Watch it here, because there's a snowballs chance in he** of this making the mainstream footage:
http://corner.nationalreview.com/post/?q=YTQ1NTY0…

les1958

Unreal- Video proof the "peace activists are anything but" This will never be shown to the MSM.It will get in the way of the the lies .
http://intensedebate.com/people/SunshineCoaster SunshineCoaster

It doesn't matter if or how the peace activists defended themselves. Their vessel was attacked by armed aircraft and warships in international waters. This is called piracy and any defence against pirates is justified under international maritime law. The fact that Israel seems to consider iteself above any law tells the whole story.

http://intensedebate.com/people/Viva_Vivian Viva_Vivian

Oh, their vessel was "attacked." Got any footage? Or is Boarding While Jewish reason enough?

http://intensedebate.com/people/SunshineCoaster SunshineCoaster

When ANY armed vessel approaches another vessel or attempts to board in international waters and refuses to stand off when asked to is considered to be perpetrating an act of piracy under international maratime law and ANY retaliation is permitted. The religious belief of the people involved is irrelevant.

http://intensedebate.com/people/Viva_Vivian Viva_Vivian

What international law do you gather that "fact" from? Or are you just weaving the straw man again?

http://intensedebate.com/people/iangwalker iangwalker

This loss of innocent life would not have happened if Israel had not been defending its 'counterproductive and unacceptable blockade' as UN spokesmen put it, which penalizes innocent women and children, causing immense human suffering.
It would not have happened if Israel abided by international human rights law, which it does not.
It would not have happened if Israel was obedient to the Law of God. Read, for example, Psalm 146, vv 5-7
"How blessed is he whose help is the God of Jacob, whose hope is in the LORD his God,
Who made heaven and earth, the sea and all that is in them; who keeps faith forever;
Who executes justice for the oppressed; who gives food to the hungry. The LORD sets the prisoners free."
Israelis are fond of saying that they have the land because of the promise of God to Abraham. Anyone who reads Moses or the prophets can see that this promise is conditional on obedience to the law. It was for disobedience that Israel lost the land before. They do not appear to have changed their ways.

les1958

It would not have happened if the peace activists had not attacked the Isreali army as they boarded the ship.Of which they were attacked on the spot with metal pipes chairs and firebombs.I have seen the video with my own eyes.

Not saying the army was correct to land on the ship but lets at least stop the lies that it was the army that started the violence.It was the so caalled activists

http://intensedebate.com/people/Thwim Thwim

If you're on my property without my permission, I'm going to do what I can to get you off. They started the violence when they landed there.

http://intensedebate.com/people/Viva_Vivian Viva_Vivian

If you attack a group of men with guns then do not be surprised when you end up dead. It's surprising to me that the so-called bloodthirtsy, murderous Israeli didn't kill the entire group that erupted in vicious violence before soldiers even alighted from their tethers. I guess the army should have just laid down, dhimmi-like, and accepted the beatings by your logic.

If I saw my comrades and friends being viciously attacked by so-called peaceniks shouting "ALLAHUAKBAR!" I would respond with the fire of a thousand suns. The Israeli army exercised restraint in my opinion.
Gaunilon

"If you're on my property without my permission, I'm going to do what I can to get you off. They started the violence when they landed there."

Someone steps on your property without your permission and you're totally ok with trying to kill them?
Good to know. Wouldn't help you one bit at the trial though.

The Left really is weird. Opposition to owning guns for self-defense? Check. Perfectly ok with mobs beating the crap out of Israeli soldiers as they board a ship? Check.

http://intensedebate.com/people/madeyoulook madeyoulook

G, on the high seas in international waters, the rules may be a bit different for defending your ship and crew against armed attackers, whether or not they are from a "legitimate" national armed force.

Except for that part about knowingly defying a naval blockade. Darn. That sticky thing called the TRUTH that seems to get in the way of a good Israel-bashing.

Anyone ready to call Israel some blood-thirsty evil country cannot put an additional neuron into service to comprehend that the last, the VERY LAST thing Israel wanted out of this was a single martyred casualty from within this dog-and-pony show.
http://intensedebate.com/people/Viva_Vivian Viva_Vivian

There's also that silly little absence of an "attack" on the part of the IDF. People keep blindly repeating that there was an attack on the "aid ship" and I have neither read nor seen any video depicting this straw man argument.

But then again the same people who eviscerate Israel also say the Gazan people are starving and hapless without international aid, a blatantly racist attempt at victimizating the Gazans if I ever saw one.

Jon

first of all, you cannot say that is Israel is not abiding by the rules that god set forth without realizing that in the Koran nowhere is it written that people should be bombed and blown up to get their way. nd the reason why Israel does not abide to international standards is that it cannot. People to not understand that it has to protect it's existence. No other country in the world is faced with Israel's problem, to try and be a democracy surrounded by countries intent on its destruction. Why can't israel protect itself. They are constantly having rockets fired into its territory while the UN does nothing. At some point, enough is enough and one must stand up for him/herself. Israel does not do this for fun, jews are not a hate mongering people, but they damn well have morals. No people should be belittled or massacred without reprucussion. If they were not antagonized, they would not fight. Its very plain and simple, stop launching rockets into Israeli territory and the bloackade will end. Why can't this stop? because quite a few Gazans are hell bent on destroying Israel. Why is it that instead of funding school, or instead of the government of Gaza giving money to people in Gaza not to work (for Israeli companies) instead of supporting homegrown initiatives?Stop thinking of the other side as devils, or The Satan and things can get a whole lot better.

rarsa

So in your mind, two wrongs make a right?

The people on the ship weren't the same as the ones launching rockets.
Trent H.

Istrael never abides by any rules and you think you should do whatever you want with impunity.Well,people are sick and tired of your whining and perpertual victimhood.When will you drag us all to next war that you can`t fight on your own,huh?

http://intensedebate.com/people/Viva_Vivian Viva_Vivian

Israel is a rogue state that is not a member of the United Nations, continually circumvents international sanctions, has a poor human rights track record, and persistently wages ideological and real war on select groups on the basis of their warmongering, women-hating holy book.

Oh wait, that's Palestine.

Trent H.

You failed at your sarcasm because everything you said is what Israel does.What passes for sarcasm nowadays.
Trent H.

Ask your self this,who gets kicked out more than 49 countries?Where have you seen that?Who has this ever happened to.Right now,surrounded by 23 countries,gets along with nobody and thinks everybody but themselves is the problem,if this is is not insanity,I don`t know what is.
http://intensedebate.com/people/Viva_Vivian Viva_Vivian

You can't spell and your grammar is atrocious. Don't respond to my arguments — you aren't fit to debate them.
Trent H.

If you don`t want to me to respond get off the forum and delete your account and your posts,stop posting.Who the hell gets kicked out of 49 countries,more expulsions that you can count and still everybody but you is the problem?You don`t get along with anyone and everybody but you is the problem?Surrounded by 23 countries,can`t even make allies with ONE country and everybody but you is the problem?If you get kicked out of two restaurants,then it`s possible that the restaurants are wrong,but more times than you can count,it means YOU are the problem.

Now comment on my grammar and spelling.How many marks did I get this time?I understand you are checking grammar and spelling,is that right?You are not insane for sure,because I would be insulting those who are.
Trent H.

That`s what I thought,is this what passes for an answer?If you get kicked out of two restaurants,mabe the restaurants erred,but more times that you can count,it means YOU are the problem.Again,why were you kicked out of 49 countries?Why can`t you even make friends with 23 countries that surround you,huh?The 49 countries were wrong?The 23 countries that surround you are wrong,everybody but you is wrong?Hahahaha.If you didn`t wnat me to respond you should stay off the comments section and delete your account, kabish?I would say you are insane,but that would be insulting those who are.

How many marks did I get this time on my grammar test?

chet

[youtube gYjkLUcbJWo&feature=player_embedded http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gYjkLUcbJWo&feature=player_embedded youtube]

Jon

my time has come, this conversation is turning my mind to mush. They say ignorance is bliss, so in this case, most of you must be very, very content. I will leave everyone with what Chet just posted. After all, a picture (or in this case, a video) is worth a thousand words.

Glitter

Ummm… You can't see who's hitting who here Jon. This grainy video imagery is blurred, which is why Chet has had to put big yellow circles around everything annotated with his own text. Whether those shady shapes really are anarchists beating up Israeli soldiers is debatable, it could easily be the other way round…

But, if you think the images are accurate, then I think these brave humanitarians should have hit those dirty soldiers a tad harder with those metal rods… and then perhaps they could have inserted said rods up the Israeli soldiers' back orifices, for a bit of variety and spice and to teach their arrogant arses a lesson.

http://intensedebate.com/people/Viva_Vivian Viva_Vivian

Disgusting.

Glitter

Actually Anthony, people don't "prosecute" Israel "becuase a few muslims acted the victim". I think you mean they persecute them, which, incidentally, isn't true. Israel has systematically endeavoured to destroy a whole nation. The Palestinian people have been forced out of THEIR country and THEIR homeland illegally, so please go and read up on the facts before sounding out your ill-founded, misguided, meaningless point of view. (And that goes for John as well – Israel isn't a legal state, so don't expect people to see it as one).

Jon

my time has comeA state is "legal" ( i think you mean lgitimate) if it is accepted by the majority of the woporld at its founding and that it was. And in case you need brushing up on history, these displaced palistinians are even rejected by fellow muslims (i.e. Egypt). Before you start preaching, why don't you tell me why fellow Muslims do not allow these people into the country.

Jon

adj.
Of, relating to, or concerned with law: legal papers.

Authorized by or based on law: a legal right.

Established by law; statutory: the legal owner.

In conformity with or permitted by law: legal business operations.

Recognized or enforced by law rather than by equity.

In terms of or created by the law: a legal offense.

This is The American Heritage Dictionaries definition of legal. In your opinion, why isn't Israel a legal state?

http://intensedebate.com/people/SunshineCoaster SunshineCoaster

The Israeli military approached vessels using armed aicraft and warships in international waters. This is generally called piracy. Maritime law allows vessels to defend themselves by any means when they are attacked by pirates. The Israeli military did this under a unilaterally declared embargo, which they call an international embargo. The only thing international about it is the universal condemnation by other countries and the UN. This incident will put Israel well on its way to losing the support of the USA which it needs to continue its existence. Oh I'm sure Stephen Harper will continue to support Israel, but that will only leave Canada isolated along with Israel.

Read more: http://www.nationalpost.com/news/story.html?id=30…
Fred Moro

The Guardian put out good articles today including a small list of people who were on the ships, http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2010/may/31/gaza-… a history of mistakes made by the Israeli military http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2010/may/31/israe… and how these actions did not help the Middle East peace process. http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2010/may/31/floti…

Tonight's edition of The World Tonight on BBC Radio 4 had an interview with the Israel defence minister about what happened and an interview with former SAS member author Andy McNab who analyzed the attack from the footage currently available. http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b00sj4f7
Fred Moro

The security council condemns "acts" in Israeli Raid http://www.nytimes.com/2010/06/02/world/middleeas… http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2010/jun/01/un-co… http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/world/middle_east/1020…

And here's the UN statement. http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/world/middle_east/1020…
chet

The comments here (now some even appauding the vicious beating of soldiers) and the various condemnations from the articles,

when juxtaposed to the actual video, show a startling truth about the world's approach to the Jewish state.

A country that is surrounded by radical regimes and their proxies vowing to destroy it, is apparantly not "allowed" to enforce a blockade into a terrorists hotspot right on its doorstep.

One wonders how much of a "let Israel be destroyed" mentality is at work here.

http://intensedebate.com/people/A_READER_ A_READER_

Exactly chet: It's "HATE THE JOOOS" non stop and I'm beyond sick of it.
Hope the next time they blow the illegally bound for Gaza ships right out of the water.
The condemnation will be the same, but there'll be a few less leftists scum trying to interfer where they have no business in doing so.
Chemical warfare from the Palis is next.
People need to wake up and see the Palis are puppets of their masters from these hate Isreal/America countries.
Even the jerks in Greece protested AFTER they burnted to death three of their own…for what?

rarsa

What does condemning an attack in international waters have to do with "jew hatred"? From all the posts and replies in this thread I can tell you that most refer to the IDF (Which is a military body, not a religious one) and to the Government of Israel, (which is not the same as the country of Israel).

Many Americans are against Obama, Does that mean that they are anti-american or anti black? Some others were against Bush, do they make them anti-american or anti-christian?

How can you equate criticizing the army/government actions with criticizing a group of people (the jewish) or a country (Israel)?

Your post is one of the few where I've read really hateful thoughts.

http://intensedebate.com/people/RunningGag RunningGag

An interesting interview with Jonathan Kay: http://www.am770chqr.com/Station/Episodes.aspx?PI…
Canucklehead.

Big SNAFU! The case of 2 rights equal 1 wrong. Isreal has a duty to defend itself. Jewish people did not do this during WW 2 and look at what happened. The people trying to supply aid to Gaza are just in their desire to help ( even if they may have being duped by hatefull people). Did they not know there was a blockade? I doubt it. So what has been acheived? No much needed aid reached the ones who needed it and another international poke in the eye for Isreal. The well meaning representatives of the aid givers need to cut out the middle men and deal directly with the Isreali government to have them help get the aid through. It just might work and for sure no one will have to die in the process. Lord give us strength.
Sam

The world and most of u people are so free to judge on a topic u probably know nothing about!
The blockade exists not to "terrorize" the Palestinians but to protect Israel's citizens from Hamas,a terrorist group that rules Gaza. Israel utilizes the right of every country to protect its citizens. In the past when the Palestinians where allowed free passage the results have been horrendous terrorist attacks which killed Israelis. Terrorist have taken the form of men,women and children who's aim is to blow themselves up and kill as many innocent Israelis as possible.
This is the reason every person coming into Israel from Gaza, and every ship coming to Gaza needs to be checked because, in the recent past conveys have been camouflage for weapons bearing ships.

As for the convoy from Turkey ,its main purpose was not to bring humanitarian aid to Gaza, but was a provication to get all your attention on their side of the story. If this aid was so important to get into Gaza why didn't they accept Israel's offer to check the ships and dilvery the goods to Gaza?
Why if the intent was peaceful, were steal rods and knives organized on the ship before Israeli soldiers even approached?
Why did the they try to beat to death Israeli soldiers?
Why aren't they accountable for their actions ?
Fact is, it only happened on one ship, ask yourselves why is that?
Anther fact, no Israeli solider opened fired until being fired upon by the so called "representatives of peace" from guns taken from the soldiers.
Go look up some of the recent past and u will see that the truth isn't as seems.
And just remember that 7 Israeli soldiers were wounded too, some seriously and some with gun wounds.
aylmer

isreal is a democratic country & should be allowed to protect its people against undemocratic terrorists which ever way it chooses.plus they just want to live in peace.
The Truth

The truth about the alleged humanitarian ship. No humanitarian aid group carries knives and uses firebombs.. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bU12KW-XyZE&feature=player_embedded” target=”_blank” rel=”nofollow”>.http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bU12KW-XyZE&feature=player_embedded
John Addar

Israel has the right to defend their country.
http://intensedebate.com/people/Thwim Thwim

So you're saying a ship out in open waters should have nothing to defend itself with if boarded by hostiles?

I mean, I could understand what you were saying if they were attacking the IDF ships, but they weren't, they were dealing with IDF soldiers that had been dropped via helicopter on to *their* ship. That's illegal boarding, and is an attack.
Jack

Go to BBC and see what really happened, like I take what Al jazeera say at face value.
http://thathero.com j.hart

In what percentage of cases does "pro-Palestinian advocate" mean anything other than "Israel-hating fellow-traveler of Hamas and Hezbollah?" Violence and death are always regrettable — and anyone who thinks this outcome isn't some variation of what Free Gaza wanted is kidding themselves.
Holly Stick

They do not have the right to starve the people of Gaza and to keep them trapped in a ghetto.
http://intensedebate.com/people/PolJunkie PolJunkie

"That's illegal boarding, and is an attack."

The very definition of piracy.
Gaunilon

"That's illegal boarding, and is an attack."

No it isn't. Israel is enforcing a blockade on Gaza to keep weapons supplies from getting to Hamas. Israel has the legal right to inderdict a ship in international waters if it is heading through the blockade and ignores warnings to stop, as this one did.

Even if we grant for the sake of argument that the boarding was illegal, that wouldn't justify trying to murder the soldiers as they drop to the deck. They weren't there to attack the passengers – they were there to take control of the ship (peacefully if possible) and turn it around.
chet

Go to YNET news for an account you won't find on the anti Isreali leftist news.

The soldiers were using paintball guns and took serious beatings, and were shot at before using live ammunition.

If this were an "attack" on a flotilla as portrayed, all of the ships would have been levelled.

Violence occurred on one ship, because there were terrorist related violent men on that ship. Isreal offered to take the supplied by land, but this flotilla had everything to do with provoking, and precious little to do with supplying.

Isreal, the only country in the world who doesn't have a "right" to defend itself.
Holly Stick

Soldiers using paintball guns. Isn't that an insane idea?
rarsa

Oh, so you know for a fact that Israel would have taken the building supplies by land? Even though the blockade prevents those items from going in?

I do not have all the facts, neither you do. I have to rely on analysis (Unfortunately biased by previous events).

So, Paintball guns? Really? So, now it seems that it was all just a game and the people on board didn't get the joke?
Mark

You mean the only country in the world to do whatever the hell it wants all b/c of what happened over 70 years ago… enough is enough….

I am sick of all their propaganda, I can see through it, and the Isreali government is no better then the suicide terrorists they help fuel through their continuous bull poop.
citizen_CA

They are not starving! Though, it's great propaganda!
David

Holly Stick, does not the elected government of Gaza have the DUTY to take care of their people versus paying terrorists? You have no idea what you are typing. These backward Muslim countries do NOT take care of their people, they do NOT have bomb shelters. Give your head a shake!!
JulianaIreneSmith

As someone living in the West Bank and sees the 12 meter wall and has friends in Gaza- this is not a joke. Israel attacked a ship with important supplies in International waters. Wake up Americans and Canadians! Israel stole this land and the people of Palestine are innocent. They have the right to have food and medical supplies. (from an American in Ramallah.)
http://intensedebate.com/people/citizen_CA citizen_CA

If you count something as stolen which was gained in a war, then just about every country on this Earth has either stolen land in their domain, or has been stolen from.
Holly Stick

Stolen land and stolen water; and Israel keeps stealing more land.
Hypocritics

But of course the ships where attempting to break a blockade, and the troops where there to enforce the blockade. The Boarding of blockaid runners is not piracy.

The main purpose of those ships was not to deliver aid, but rather to force the IDF into military action.
Holly Stick

An illegal blockade.
Hypocritics

illegal or legal it doesn't matter, a blockade is in effect.
Thwim

So any country.. by declaring it's set up a blockade, then gets free passage on to any ship in international waters that they like?
http://intensedebate.com/people/Gaunilon Gaunilon

So any ship, when told to stop by naval vessels and then boarded, has the right to try to kill the soldiers as they drop to the deck??
Charles

humanitarian ship ?????
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JvS9PXZ3RWM
http://intensedebate.com/people/madeyoulook madeyoulook

I suppose, in international waters, maybe they do. But, then, they can hardly cry about the resulting bloodbath. Well, actually, they can and they will, because that was quite likely the entire point of the exercise. But we don't have to be terribly moved. Think Rachel Corrie and her fatal defence of terrorist tunnels against an IDF Caterpillar.
http://intensedebate.com/people/Viva_Vivian Viva_Vivian

Step talking sense, Gaunilon.

If I put myself in the shoes of the people on ship, I would not begin assaulting the army! It's the equivalent of being pulled over for speeding and then attacking the officer who approaches your car. That's a person with a gun and they may use deadly force as trained. I'm not sure what the soldiers were supposed to do — fall down and bow at their Muslim masters?
http://intensedebate.com/people/Thwim Thwim

9 dead. None IDF soldiers.
Who's killing who here?
Ryan

Legal or not, these "activists" knew exactly what they were doing in provoking the Israelites to attack them. Their intentions were to be martyrs and they found what they sought.
http://intensedebate.com/people/Viva_Vivian Viva_Vivian

It's racist, David, to point out that the reason Israel is a prosperous country and neighbouring Gaza is an impoverished dreck is because of backward Islamic values entrenching Muslims in unchanged, 7th century cesspools. Just in case you weren't caught up on the latest dhimmi-influenced politically correct garbage — I mean values.
Steve M

If the soldiers were only expecting peaceful do-gooders (as they apparently encountered on the other ships), then paintball guns sounds like a reasonable, non-lethal option.
Minotaure

They saught and found martyrdom alright! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b3L7OV414Kk
http://intensedebate.com/people/Thwim Thwim

No, actually, it's more the equivalent of being pulled over by Hell's Angels and then attacking them when they climb in your car with weapons.
Thwim

So if Somali pirates declare they're enforcing a blockade they have the right to board any ship in international waters that is heading through it?
http://intensedebate.com/people/Gaunilon Gaunilon

Yes that's right. The Israeli navy, attempting to keep weapons out of Gaza and offering to let vessels through if they first submit to a search, is just like Somali pirates trying to loot passing ships.

And totally ok to respond to such an interdiction by beating the crap out of the soldiers as they land on deck, right? Do you hold the same opinion concerning weapons smugglers who decide to attack Canadian sailors during interdictions in the Persian Gulf?
http://intensedebate.com/people/Gaunilon Gaunilon

You've now compared the Israeli navy to the Hells Angels and the Somali pirates. You really just don't get the difference, do you?
Thwim

So you're saying that one organized group of people, if it's primarily black people, does not have the same right as another organized group of people, if it's primarily jewish, to randomly declare a blockade and then use that as pretext to board someone else's ship. I see.

It IS totally okay to respond to armed people illegally boarding your ship by doing whatever is necessary to get them off your ship. Or do you argue that civilians should not be allowed to resist when pirates board their vessel?

As for Canadian Soldiers during the Persian Gulf, in case you don't remember, they were enforcing UN imposed sanctions, not a random country's decision.
http://intensedebate.com/people/Gaunilon Gaunilon

Yep, you've got it – I must just be a racist. Well done.

"It IS totally okay to respond to armed people illegally boarding your ship by doing whatever is necessary to get them off your ship. "

No actually, it isn't. You have to respond with proportionate force. Going from "you're trespassing" to "I'm going to kill you" is a big leap, particularly in cases like this where it's quite clear that no one is going to get hurt and nothing is going to get stolen if people don't overreact.

Speaking of overreacting, I do wish you'd stop calling the Israeli Navy "pirates".

And as to Canadian soldiers, so far as I know there are Canadian frigates in the Gulf helping with interdiction to this day, both for the Iraq War and the Afghanistan conflict. I could be wrong, but I'm inclined to think it's not entirely sanctioned by the UN.
http://intensedebate.com/people/Thwim Thwim

Hm. A force armed with lethal weaponry comes on to my ship. What's proportionate? Do I have to wait until they actually kill someone before I'm allowed to hit them?

Nine people dead. None of them IDF members. Who's use of force was disproportionate here?
http://intensedebate.com/people/Thwim Thwim

Would you prefer it if I called them the Somali Navy?

Tell me, what do you call it if someone boards your ship in international waters with the intention of taking it from you? Happy times?

You really don't get it at all, do you?
http://intensedebate.com/people/madeyoulook madeyoulook

Thwim, if you are knowingly challenging a naval blockade at sea or an armed police checkpoint on land, you oughta have your head examined if you survive the encounter. The comparison to Hells Angels and Somali pirates is most definitely not apt.
http://intensedebate.com/people/Viva_Vivian Viva_Vivian

No, YOU seem to fail to understand that when you attack an armed force the consequences may include being shot dead. Gaunilon posted a video of IDF troops being attacked before they even landed aboard.

One of the tenets of Islam is that martyrdom is rewarded in the afterlife. You may be of the crowd that believes Christianity, which deplores suicide, is similar to Islam, which condones it as a means to "defending" Allah. You are wrong. For a woman in the video Minotaure posted above, for her happy endings include martyrdom. These are not crazy people — they are devout. You would be remiss not to understand the difference.
http://intensedebate.com/people/Viva_Vivian Viva_Vivian

I see you're getting the thumbs down for showing this video and yet no one has the guts to refute or counterargue what you've contributed. Although it is difficult to argue against the truth in colour, it's certainly not impossible or else politicians and armchair leftists would be jobless.
http://intensedebate.com/people/Viva_Vivian Viva_Vivian

What you are talking about is what is considered in criminal law to to be the salient factor in determining one's guilt or innocence as to assault. Was the assault provoked? Was it agreed to? Was the defendant defending himself? If so, he is not guilty.

Maybe this one will move you: pre-emptive war. That thing leftists hated on George Bush for. Iraq didn't attack the United States, but they may have nuclear weaponry so let's get in there and get them before they kill someone.

Do you understand now?