How can a Bloc MP take this oath?

by Andrew Coyne on Wednesday, June 16, 2010 10:53pm - 169 Comments

Okay, so in order to see the Afghan detainee documents, members of the ad hoc committee set up by agreement between the government and opposition parties (minus the NDP) have to subject themselves to a long list of security measures. They have to sign a confidentality undertaking. They have to get security clearance. They can only view the documents in a “secure location.” They can’t bring staff with them, or any recording device, can’t remove any material or make copies. They can make notes on what they’re reading, provided they leave them on site, and destroy them in six months.

And they have to swear an oath. It’s described as an “oath of confidentiality.” But it’s not only that. Here’s the text:

I, [name], swear (or solemnly affirm) that I will be faithful and bear true loyalty to Canada and to its people, whose democratic beliefs I share, whose rights and freedoms I respect, and whose laws I will uphold and obey. I further swear (or solemnly affirm) that I will not communicate or use without due authority any information obtained in confidence during the review of documentation.

The second sentence is the oath of confidentiality. The first is something quite different: an oath of loyalty. Nothing remarkable in that. These are Members of the Parliament of Canada, after all. And the information they are being permitted to see, as the tight security rules imply, is of the most delicate nature. Nothing less than the national security of the country is at stake. Of course you’d only extend that right to people who were loyal to Canada, and had Canada’s best interests at heart.

Except … the Bloc Québécois signed this agreement. As such, it is entitled to nominate a member (plus an alternate) to sit on the committee. If you’re like me, you have a problem with people who are openly dedicated to the destruction of Canada being privy to our most sensitive national secrets. Still, I realize in this benighted country there are those who disagree. There are even people who think the Bloc should be allowed to participate in the executive government (as opposed to the legislature) of Canada.

Fine: except the terms of the agreement says no committee member can see the documents unless they swear to “be faithful and bear true loyalty to Canada and to its people.” Regardless of whether you think there should be such a loyalty test, there it is. Regardless of whether you think it is fair to subject the Bloc to such an obligation, they agreed to it. I’ll put aside my objection in principle to the Bloc seeing any of these documents if the Bloc can explain how they can possibly swear that oath.

“That I will be faithful and bear true loyalty to Canada and to its people”? Is this not an explicit repudiation of their party’s central purpose? If they swear such an oath, then, they can’t possibly mean it. And if they don’t mean it, what good is the oath? If they are taking one part of the oath, as it were, with their fingers crossed, who’s to say they are not doing the same with the other?

How, in good conscience, could the Bloc agree to swear an oath to one thing when it believes the exact opposite? Or never mind conscience: are there no legal consequences for swearing oaths in bad faith? Oaths aren’t just words on paper. They are legal documents. They are intended to ensure people make honest statements, where honesty is a vital necessity, as it surely is in matters of national security. And yet any Bloc MP who takes this oath must, by definition, be lying.

I realize the separatist movement has confronted this question before. It is a constitutional requirement, not only for Members of Parliament but for members of the National Assembly in Quebec, to swear an oath of loyalty to the Queen, and somehow they have managed to work themselves around to doing that. I recall Gilles Duceppe pointing out that there are members of the British Labour Party who don’t believe in the monarchy, and yet are permitted to swear a similar oath before entering their own Parliament. But this is something else again. There is no possible way to square “loyalty to Canada and its people” with membership in a party whose stated objective is to tear that same country, and its people, apart.

In which case, if we permit any Bloc MP to take this oath, it is not only the Blocquiste who would be committing a fraud, but us. And yet the oath speaks of upholding the laws!

ADDENDUM: Here’s the oath Members of Parliament (and of the provincial legislatures) are obliged to swear before taking office, as prescribed by Section 128 of the Constitution Act 1867 and set out in the Fifth Schedule:

I, [name], do swear, that I will be faithful and bear true Allegiance to Her Majesty Queen Elizabeth II.

In French:

Je, [nom], jure que je serai fidèle et porterai une vraie allégeance à Sa Majesté la Reine Élisabeth II.

But what do solemn and binding oaths mean in this country? What does anything? We are so used to looking the other way at the Bloc’s sincere and determined enmity that I suppose we will do the same with their mocking professions of loyalty.

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  • Phil KIng

    Hate to disagree with Andrew Coyne, who is probably one of the few sensible conservatives I know, but to "…be faithful and bear true loyalty to Canada and to its people…" is in regards to this particular situation, and is not intended to preclude future considerations of a political nature.

    Being faithful to the process and its results is all that is intended here obviously, the point being that they agree not to abuse the information and abide by the terms.

    If democracy is to mean anything one cannot start out by assuming that a political position that is legal and supported by the populace is somehow treasonous or infers a lack of basic respect for others or the rule of law.

    You're seriously reaching here Andrew.

  • Loraine Lamontagne

    There is nothing in Canadian law that forbids one from pursuing changes to the constitution of Canada. There is even a law that explains how secession is to be negotiated. There is nothing undemocratic or un-canadian about pursuing these goals, within the framework of Canadian law.

    Actually, Gomery in his report stated that the Prime Minister has an obligation to protect Canadian unity, or something to that effect. I've been wondering where he got that from – if anyone knows, please pass on. I would tend to agree with Mr. Harper's view that it doesn't matter whether we have one, two or several national governments.

  • http://intensedebate.com/profiles/tigerinexile Ben (The Tiger)

    Coyne, here's a question.

    I agree with you that all the Bloc MPs have been perjuring themselves since that by-election win in 1990. (Previous members of parliament could claim to have taken the oath in good faith as Progressive Conservatives or Liberals in 1988.)

    That being said, what should be done?

    The old remedy was to expel members for that sort of act — as has happened a few times in Canadian history.

    I'm guessing the reason why it wasn't done in 1993 is that expelling 60 Quebecois members of Parliament — the Official Opposition — would have tossed gasoline on the national unity file that was then on fire.

    Do you suggest that we should expel the entire Bloc caucus?

    If not, what would you have us do?

  • Anon Liberal

    From a Bloc point of view they are not "dedicated to the destruction of Canada". They view their political project as emancipating Quebec, which, as another commenter noted, they think would be positive for both Quebecers and Canadians. I know this is hard for people like Andrew Coyne to understand but for your average sovereigntist the movement is not nearly as much anti-Canada as it is pro-Quebec and they have no interest in unduly harming Canada.

    Also since René Lévesque the movement has been highly democratic. Coyne cites the possibility of declaring a UDI as evidence against this, and he has a point, but that would only follow after a "winning" referendum vote, at which point we would all be improvising, Clarity Act notwithstanding.

    It is not in anybody's interests to treat Blocistes as "traitors". Treating them like that may end up producing the very effect you are trying to prevent.

    • Anon Liberal

      Further to my earlier post, here's an analogy that might help. Imagine that you, as a Canadian, were somehow elected to the U.S. House of Representatives or the Senate. Now you might not feel the same sense of loyalty to the U.S. as Americans do but at the same time you're not DISLOYAL to them, you have no interest in harming the U.S. and you understand that your role is to serve your constituents, all your constituents, and, in a certain sense, the larger polity as well.

      Now you might be called upon to pledge a loyalty oath to the U.S. constitution at some point. As a Canadian you don't have "loyalty" to the U.S. per se but you kind of like this job and it's just one of the things you have to do to keep it so you mouth the words without taking the sentiments too seriously.

      The only time you might have a real problem on your hand is in situations where their is a direct conflict between your Canadian loyalties and your role as a U.S. legislator (perhaps some kind of bilateral trade dispute) but I don't think the Afghan detainee case is one where there is likely to be this kind of conflict.

    • http://intensedebate.com/people/VinceClortho VinceClortho

      emacipating French Quebecois to be exact. They arent interested nor would they claim to represent anyone who isnt French speaking…..and they struggle with the "pure laine" thing, but I actually think they are mostly over that and are focussed on language….well thats because the old stock can dominate for the moment. See the accomodation debate for how close to the surface that is.

      • Anon Liberal

        Hi Vince,

        Certainly there is still an "ethnic" element to Québécois nationalism but I don't think there's ever been a nationalist movement that didn't have this aspect to it. But what does that have to do with Coyne's post?

        • http://intensedebate.com/people/VinceClortho VinceClortho

          In response to your Bloc point of view argument, that they really arent destroying anything. They are destroying something and it is for not particularly noble reasons.

          The link to Coynes article would be support for the notion that the Bloc's goals and core are at odds with the oath.

          • Anon Liberal

            I'M not saying that they're not destroying anything. I'm a federalist and believe a Canada which includes Quebec is worth fighting for. But I'm saying from a BQ point of view they wouldn't see what they were doing as destructive.

            The challenge of living in a bi-national (or multi-national if you count First Nations and Newfoundland and the Acadians, etc.) country is to place yourselves in the shoes of others. That takes imagination and empathy. And it's not only the sovereigntist side that is lacking in those virtues.

          • http://intensedebate.com/people/VinceClortho VinceClortho

            Wonderful realtivsim on display. sovereigntists are just Canadians with another point of view. But I think it is imperative to know and understand their agenda and who and what they are at their core. Last week, as if on cue Duceppe sent a letter out to other governments saying a referendum was coming soon and Quebec would be independent. And the point of that was to build up a unified Canada? Oh yeah, its just another Canadian viewpoint and I am lacking sufficient imagination to walk in his shoes….if defending this is what passes for Federalist Liberals these days then they should fold tents and leave the field.

            I dont think you really have walked in their shoes, because I dont think you get their objectives. Thats not a failure of imagination, thats just plain denial.

          • Anon Liberal

            Ah so now empathy and imagination is "relativistic"? Ha! Perhaps you should join the Republican Party south of the border.

            First of all, just because I sign off as "Anon Liberal" does not make me a spokesperson for the LPC. There are a variety of views towards the QC sovereignty movement within the LIberal Party and mine is only one of those. It happens to be informed by the fact that I am bilingual and bicultural and therefore it is relatively easy for me to see things from both points of view.

            Secondly I am completely aware of Duceppe's objectives. EVERYONE is aware of Duceppe's objectives. They are hardly a state secret. It's the entire raison d'être of his political party. And sending letters to other governments promoting QC sovereignty is entirely consistent and predictable with those objectives. You and I might not like those objectives or letters but so what? He has a right to do it. Just like the Government of Canada would have a right to respond to those letters. Would you deny him that right?

            Canada has been very smart not to over-react to the sovereigntist movement and to practice tolerance. I think that's the main reason Quebec is still part of the country and why the sovereigntist movement has never became extremist or violent like so many secessionist movements have in other parts of the world. But I get the feeling if guys like you or Andrew Coyne were in charge of Canada Vince that tolerance would have been on much shorter supply. That might be emotionally satisfying for you but it would not be in Canada's interests.

          • http://intensedebate.com/people/VinceClortho VinceClortho

            Empathy isnt relativistic, holding all things as equivalent and never critically evaluating is. What this leads to, or possibly comes from, is a constant sense of accomodation in the mistaken sense that appeasement is tolerance. That isnt empathy and imagination, it is a feather in the wind.

            Tolerance isnt at issue here. What I have said is that the nature of sovereigntists and their agenda be recognized and dealt with on that level. I am saying one would be a fool to blindly trust a group whose open and stated ends are counter to the oath they are taking. You might be forced to "trust", take them at their word, but that doesnt mean you dont verify or protect yourself. By your argument then the Bloc should be allowed into the executive branch and you would have no trouble with them serving as intergovernmental affiars, or in the defence portfolio….I mean they swore an oath, what could possibly go wrong.

          • Anon Liberal

            Appeasement really? That's the word you want to use? Whatever dude.

            Keep trying to force people to pick sides and I'll keep trying to keep the temperature down.

          • http://intensedebate.com/people/VinceClortho VinceClortho

            None of this makes them any less legitimate as representatives of their ridings. It just severely limits what you believe from them, and what aspects you rely on them for and where their interests lay. You claim to have your eyes wide open about the Bloc, yet you insist on turning it into group therapy where if only we understood them more they would share our interests. They dont at a fundamental level, any alliance is temporary and transactional.

            How you turn this into being about a lack of empathy is beyond me, its wooly headed emotionalism.

          • Anon Liberal

            I never said "if only we understood them more they would share our interests". What I was trying to say is that if we only understood them more we wouldn't think of them as "traitors".

  • RagingRanter

    Interstingly, whenever Sinn Fein candidates (i'm probably spelling that wrong) have been elected into the UK Parliament, they've always refused to take their seats, because doing so would require an oath of loyalty to the Queen. But I'll take Gilles Duceppe and his far less principled stance any day of the week. Our seperatists only seem problematic until we start looking at other countries.

    • http://intensedebate.com/people/VinceClortho VinceClortho

      I comented above, they take their seats but cant vote. They can speak but no voting, the SNP take the oath and get to vote.

  • Lord Kitchener's Own

    So, I most certainly don't want to come off as a Bloc apologist, but I do think a few commenters above have made an interesting point.

    If (and perhaps it's a big if, but go with me for the sake of argument) a Bloc MP honestly and truly believes in his or her heart of hearts that the political separation of Quebec from the rest of Canada is in the interests of BOTH the people of Quebec AND the people of Canada, would not the "loyal" thing to do be to advocate for that result?

    Again, that may take a leap of belief on the part of non-separatists, but it would, at least on the surface, seem consistent with the oath.

    Arguments against that hypothetical?

    • http://intensedebate.com/profiles/tigerinexile Ben (The Tiger)

      If you can tell me how that allows him to "be faithful and bear true Allegiance to Her Majesty Queen Elizabeth II" — well, you're a smarter man than I.

      Separatism = loyalty, up = down, left = right.

      • Lord Kitchener's Own

        Good point. That would indeed be a trickier oath to square with this understanding, perhaps impossible.

        I was only really looking at the oath at hand for the sake of this argument.

        • Loraine Lamontagne

          By the by, the 1995 referendum proposed that Quebec maintained its link with the Commonwealth.

          • http://intensedebate.com/people/VinceClortho VinceClortho

            Surprisingly, Parizeau is quite the anglophile. I doubt it was sincere or high priority, just something else to get upset about when they were inevitably booted out.

          • http://tigeronpolitics.wordpress.com Ben (The Tiger)

            I wouldn't be shocked if Parizeau actually wanted to keep the Queen — which would have squared him, at least, with the oath to the Queen, had he ever decided to become an MP.

            But he'd've been overruled by the rest of the movement, I'm sure.

          • Lord Kitchener's Own

            Maybe, maybe not.

            There's definitely an antipathy towards the monarchy I think (and not limited to separatists), but I think there's also a feeling that the monarchy is arguably a big reason that French culture in Quebec didn't go the way of French culture in Louisiana.

          • http://intensedebate.com/profiles/tigerinexile Ben (The Tiger)

            Support for the monarchy is somewhere south of 25% in Quebec, and has been for decades.

            So, sure, there are more Quebecois monarchists than just Jean Chretien, say, but it's pretty clear that an independent Quebec would be a republic.

    • http://intensedebate.com/people/sourstud sourstud

      See, but you're separating the people of Quebec and the people of Canada. They're not separate groups of people, the latter includes the former. By advocating the separation of one province from Canada, you're advocating the separation of all provinces from Canada, which means Canada ceases to exist.

      • Lord Kitchener's Own

        By advocating the separation of one province from Canada, you're advocating the separation of all provinces from Canada

        Well, first, by "advocating the separation of one province from Canada, ONE would be …" Keep in mind thatI am certainly in no way whatsoever advocating any such thing. That aside, I'd also argue that your first premise is not necessarily followed by the other.

        Also, the people of Canada does include the people of Quebec, no doubt, but if you then simply re-word the argument to argue that "the political separation of Quebec from the rest of Canada is in the interests of BOTH the people of Quebec AND the people of rest of Canada", I'm not certain that your objection, on that ground, doesn't go "poof!".

    • Lord Kitchener's Own

      The crux of this argument would seem to be that the belief that the political separation of Quebec from the rest of Canada would be of benefit to both Quebec and the ROC. Of course, I think that's hogwash, however, I'm not sure I'd go so far as to claim that it's somehow metaphysically impossible for that to be the case. I certainly leave open the possibility that a person could honestly believe such a thing, even if I think it's idiotic.

      If one honestly believes that the separation of Quebec from Canada would be the best possible outcome for all concerned and (now, this one's tougher to accept as realistic) one was equally concerned with the well-being of both the people of Quebec, AND the people in the rest of Canada, do you suppose one could take the oath above AND be a separatist, and not have the two be in conflict?

  • http://intensedebate.com/people/Maplesoon Maplesoon

    The real question should be why does the Conservative Party feel that an Oath of Loyalty would do anything to prevent leak from occuring? If you are going to break the Confidence of the House, don't you think that individual believe they are acting the the best of the democratic beliefs and processes of Canda, whose rights and freedoms I respect, and whose laws I will uphold and obey?

    Might as well ask them to swear not to eat babies for breakfast. How any MP take that oath?

    • http://intensedebate.com/people/VinceClortho VinceClortho

      Swearing to tell the truth doesnt make you tell the truth either. But there are consequences if you are caught lying after you swear. Same here, you get booted off the committee.

      But as I said the more important element, and I hope much more rigorously enforced element, is the Security clearance to Secret. There is a background check done and I believe you sign similar kids of things. I can only hope that the appropriate agencies will be proactive in holding all MP's on that committee to their responsibilities including for the 6 months or more following its conclusion.

      Isn't the better question, how can a Bloc MP obtain Secret clearance after all checks are done….including checks into their political background yada yada.

  • http://intensedebate.com/people/SunshineCoaster SunshineCoaster

    Andrew give it a break. You are starting to sound like Norman Spector, who can't stand the Bloc because he helped Mulroney create the conditions for the Bloc to be created.

    You say " If you’re like me, you have a problem with people who are openly dedicated to the destruction of Canada being privy to our most sensitive national secrets." Doesn't that rule out Stephen Harper as well?

    The Bloc Quebecios and particularly Gilles Duceppe have consistently accomplished their goals by garnering the support of their consituencies and adhering to the democratic rules at play in Canada. That is far more than you can say for Stephen Harper. Altough I disagree heartily with the Bloc position, I don't think they deserve the bashing you have written here.

    • http://intensedebate.com/people/VinceClortho VinceClortho

      yeah its all Norman and Brians fault. Lucy Bouchard just woke up one morning after he felt betrayed and formed the Bloc and all those MP;s decided it was a good idea to follow.

      There was more betrayal than Canadians really know and has been reported.

  • Dick Richards

    Don't all the Bloc MPs already have to swear the 'Oath of Allegiance'

    "I, [name], do Solemnly swear (affirm) that I will be faithful and bear true allegiance to Her Majesty Queen Elizabeth the Second, Queen of Canada, Her Heirs and Successors according to law, forever. So help me God"

    What is the difference?

  • http://intensedebate.com/profiles/michaeltripper michaeltripper

    Perhaps we are getting over-reactive and the idea of destroying Canada is hysterical? I mean even if they did leave would not Canada exist in some form or another?

    As long as they are part of Canada they can take the oath as Quebec is part of Canada as of right now.

    Don't see a big conflict really. I'm sure a lawyer would see it my way, not that that is going to endear me to anyone here :D

  • Dick Richards

    Don't worry about it Andrew, as soon as Harper gets his majority, MPs will all be saying the 'Oath of Allegiance to Stephen'

  • Canuck in USA

    FINALLY, someone who takes that oath seriously. But we are in a post modern Canada where there are no absolute standards and nothing means what it says. In short, the oath is considered an anachronism. What are we going to do with them? Try them for treason?

  • http://intensedebate.com/people/PeteTong PeteTong

    Stephen Harper is more dedicated to the destruction of Canada than Gilles Duceppe. Sometimes Andrew you are just way too Torontonian.

  • Ida

    My MP is Bloc Quebecois. I did not vote for him, but he is my representative and represents my riding's voice in the Federal legislature. That is how a representative democracy works. How dare Mr. Coyne suggest my democratic rights are somehow less worthy and that I should be disenfranchised just because of the political party affiliation of my MP!

    How undemocratic.

  • Olivier B-C

    In Quebec, we have voted like every canadiens for our MPs. Why would the Bloc MP have differents privileges than the others? Why the MP from place X would have rights that the MP from place Y doesn't have, Bloc MPs are not terrorist, they defend an ideal for Quebecois and they have full right to look at those national security documents… unless we are not living in the same country… I am sorry Mr. Coyne but I am sorry that ROC still uses Quebec bashing.

  • grey gal

    The Bloc should have nothing to do with the Government of Canada. They should be a Provinical Party only. I thought we had clever people in Governement….obviously not or the Bloc would be ousted from parliament. It is clear to me that the Bloc is interested in one thing and one thing only…… to separate! How can they in good faith make any decision about what's best for the whole country when they only think about themselves and what's good for Quebec?

  • http://cdntaxlie.blogspot.com John Halonen

    I, [name], swear (or solemnly affirm) that I will be faithful and bear true loyalty to Canada and to its people, whose democratic beliefs I share, whose rights and freedoms I respect, and whose laws I will uphold and obey. I further swear (or solemnly affirm) that I will not communicate or use without due authority any information obtained in confidence during the review of documentation.

    Sure does seem proper however i expect it is just not the Bloc.

    What about former PM Brian Mulroney, who not only sold out for himself but for his country also.

    The Bloc is not the only ones who betray Canada`s interests!

  • Red River Rogue

    I can remember our loyal, patriotic and righteous Peter MacKay signing an agreement with fellow Conservatives vowing to never make a deal with the Reform Party. Shortly thereafter, he did. The point is that Gilles Duceppe (I strongly disagree with his separatist orientation) has probably more personal integrity than MacKay or indeed Stephen Harper. Both have demonstrated a willingness to sacrifice national interest for personal political gain. At the least, Duceppe will try to keep them honest, something that appears to be more and more difficult to do. I suspect Duceppe will not be selling state secrets to Iran or North Korea. I also suspect that his intention is not to "tear our country apart", but rather to promote a different political structure. I disagree with this, but it is a position that seems to have some resonance in Quebec, judging by the number of BQ members elected. Using the same logic of exclusion, perhaps the Conservatives should also be barred from the committee based on the numerous unpatriotic examples of contempt of parliament. Being a democracy, we will just have to hold our noses and let them both participate.

  • jonboy

    People of Canada who believe in Canada believe in its laws including the the clarity act.A BLOC member swears loyalty to Canadians if he/she recognises that the will of Canadians is to maintain or adjust the size of the present federation is to be done by adhering to rules prescribed by the clarity act.
    It is Andrew Coyne who could not swear loyalty to Canada because he is not able to swear to uphold the clarity act.
    It is Andrew Coyne that does not recognise the laws and rights all Canadians enjoy.
    If Ontario wishes to leave Canada and is committed to adhering to the clarity act would Andrew have a problem with a MP from Toronto?
    If you are not willing to trust our democratic institutions how can you say that you believe that you have Canada’s best interest at heart.
    In my view Andrew is not qualified because he is undemocratic and therefore could never have Canada’s best interest at heart.
    If someone is committed to the elimination of the monarchy and follows the democratic procedures to attain their goals are they allowed to be members of parliament even though they wish to remove the monarchy?
    In Coyne’s world they are not worthy Canadians in my world they are true Canadians because they believe in the rule of Canadian law.

    I detest the goals of the BLOC. however if the rules created to protect the will of the people are followed then I’ll support their right to utilise their freedom. Having only anti democratic people in parliament is not good Canada or Canadians.

  • FVerhoeven

    I'm perplexed by your sudden awakening, Mr.Coyne. Have you not covered Canadian politics for some time now? Seriously, how can you be so dumbfounded by these recent developments if the BQ has been participating within federal elections for over 20 years??!!

    Yes, the BQ: a provincial/seperatist party fully participating within Canadian federal elections (who knew?) and you, Mr.Coyne, like so many other Canadians, think nothing of it untill now!

    Just a simple question, but when you, Mr.Coyne, attended your post secondary education, were you unable to grasp logic or was it simply not taught any longer. Either way: too bad!

    we permit any Bloc MP to take this oath, it is not only the Blocquiste who would be committing a fraud, but us.

  • Rudiger

    The Part of the OAth in Question

    bear true loyalty to Canada and to its people, whose democratic beliefs I share, whose rights and freedoms I respect, and whose laws I will uphold and obey

    I know the point you are trying to make in regards to the Bloc trying to split up Canada. But you can very well be a speratist and recite this post. Lets look at the laws of Canada. Nowhere in the Consitution of Canada does it say Canada is indivisible. Actually in Re Sucession of Quebec, the Supreme Court of Canada held that Quebec could legally and constituionally seperate, if it was done under the proper procedures and negiotiations.

    Now while I am no seperatist, the Bloc can very well advocate for sucession, but still swear to uphold the laws, the consitution and the princples of Canada The Oath and succesion are not mutually exclusive after the Supreme Court of Canada's decision in Re Sucession of Quebec.

  • Anonymous

    So are they committing an independent Quebec to being a Commonwealth Realm under the leadership of the Queen? Because that actually would satisfy the oath, but somehow I have my doubts. 

  • Anonymous

    This is true of any and all separatists who have taken oaths of allegiance to Canada. I can’t think of any such group besides the Bloc MP in question, but if you expand it to include oaths of loyalty to the Queen, it’s a much larger group, including all BQ MPs and PQ MNAs past and present. 

  • http://intensedebate.com/people/SeanStok Sean

    Without having any sympathy for the separatists, I suppose one could argue that they can swear loyalty to Canada so long as that remains their nation of citizenship (despite their long term goal of establishing a separate nation). They swear loyalty to Canada until Quebec is no longer a part of Canada. Congative dissonance, sure. But it's not exactly lying. I don't see it as qualitatively different from swearing to the Queen.

    I suppose one downside of the Clarity Act is that it gives a certain credibility and acknowledgement to separtist aims. Since we have laws on the books governing the terms of separation, it makes it a bit harder to say separatist platforms are completely irreconcilable with ad hoc loyalty to the current federation.

    I don't like the separatists one bit. I frigging hate Quebers for clogging the House with BQ members. But unless we want to make separatist parties illegal, I guess we have to live with the representatives Quebecers send to Ottawa.

  • http://intensedebate.com/people/SeanStok Sean

    And I'd be open to making separatist parties illegal in Canada. It'd be more honest than the 'residual sin' approach the country takes currently.

  • jarrid

    … or we could cut their federal subsidies which is insane.

    The Bloc used to have major problems getting their own members to vote in federal elections because most of them had a "why should I vote in a federal election" mentality. Now the Bloc can use their federal subsidy very efficiently by flooding the Quebec market with adds while the other parties have to use their resource across the whole country.

  • Bonko

    "I frigging hate Quebers (sic)"

    Ooooh, we're openly expressing and inciting hatred against ethnic groups now, contrary to sec. 318 of the Criminal Code of Canada? Iiiiiiiiiinteresting, tell us more about your racial hatred. And they are a race, and were referred to as one up until very recently, every PM from Laurier to Pearson spoke of "two founding races" and never "two founding nations", but that was back in the days when we were Darwinists here in Canada…

    This – the supression of free expression – would be one of Canada's "rights", a positive one, that I oppose; I guess that would disqualify me from taking this oath too.

  • http://intensedebate.com/people/hollinm hollinm

    Sean….you say you hate Separatists but you have no problem defending their "rights" in your post.

    That's like Liberals who say they were Conservative supporters but because of the actions of the Conservative party no longer support them.

    We do need to pass legislation forcing any party who wants to sit in the federal party to run candidates in a majority of ridings accross the country..

  • http://intensedebate.com/people/SeanStok Sean

    I've got no problem with cutting federal subsidies. But it's ultimately a rather roundabout (and timid) means of addressing the problem. At some point, we have to stop treating the BQ like some force of nature that comes from nowhere, and start pinning responsiblity on the voters of Quebec. While it may currently be their right to elect separatists, the rest of the country should exercise their right to call them on it – vehemently and relentlessly. And we should seriously consider expanding our understanding and legal treatment of treason to include parties like the BQ.

  • http://intensedebate.com/people/PhilCP Phil

    The BQs election results have been fairly consistent……where is this correlation between subsidies and electoral results?

    The BQ gets roughly $2.5 million per year, ostensibly to pander to about 7.5 million people (~33c/person).
    The CPC gets roughly $10.0 million per year, ostensibly to pander to about 30.0 million people (~33c/person).

    Do you have access to different numbers?

  • jarrid

    I agree with your sentiments but not your tactics on this. Turning down the temperature on the volatile "nationalist question" is almost always a good idea. Outlawing the BQ would play in the separatist's hands. On the other hand, cutting their election subsidy would make them squawk in outrage but once their outburst would be over the withdrawn subsidy would take its course and the BQ would be back to the old get the vote out the hard way approach. It would be all to the good.

  • http://intensedebate.com/people/PhilCP Phil

    I'm not following this 'residual sin' line of thought…please expand a bit.

  • http://intensedebate.com/people/SeanStok Sean

    You're right, it's not all that self-evident an analogy.

    I was referencing the older Christian belief that individuals – no matter how virtuous in their lifetimes – still possessed some degree of sin (by way of being human, if nothing else). (Pergatory was where the residual sin would be expunged, so even the virtuous could expect to spend a little time there).

    In terms of how Canadians treat the BQ – or at least how the Ottawa political culture treats them – they tend to enjoy a fairly positive reputation, are legally allowed to have a separatist party, and so forth. But their separatist platform is always something that can be held against them when folks get peeved, or if it suits political strategy. In that sense, their separatist aims are treated as a form of residual sin.

    There's probably a much better way to express the same idea.

  • http://intensedebate.com/people/SeanStok Sean

    It's true that I'm probably too antagonistic in this case. And were separatist parties to be outlawed, there would be nothing to stop Quebecers from simply electing some other rump party (sans separatiste) and clog Parliament in the same way.

    The benefit of cutting per-vote subsidies is that it would discourage parties that are too concentrated (BQ) or too thin (Greens) in their support, and favour more grounded, grassroots relationships between parties and voters.

  • http://intensedebate.com/people/SeanStok Sean

    " I frigging hate Quebecers for clogging the House with BQ members. [typo fixed]" was what I wrote, you moron.

    Be angry, or be stupid. The combination is intolerable.

  • Gaunilon

    "I was referencing the older Christian belief that individuals – no matter how virtuous in their lifetimes – still possessed some degree of sin (by way of being human, if nothing else). (Pergatory was where the residual sin would be expunged, so even the virtuous could expect to spend a little time there)."

    I realize this was just intended as an analogy, but it's pretty confused nonetheless. "Older Christianity" (i.e. Catholicism) has never held that all men have "residual sin" to atone for at death by virtue of being human. There is "original sin" that we inherit from Adam, and "actual sins" that we commit ourselves, both of which can be easily expunged in this life, and many people have always been believed to die in a state of grace (i.e., without sin left unatoned) rather than being in need of purgation afterwards.

    Anyway, I think your analogy works if you use "original sin". Bloc MPs may do many good things and be effective in many ways, but they always have that inherent problem inherited from their party: they're fundamentally separatists. They can only truly be redeemed if they let this go…. I suppose the analogy to baptism would be "crossing the floor".

  • http://intensedebate.com/people/PhilCP Phil

    Thanks!

    My bottom line wrt the BQ is that I really can't get very motivated to worry about them. I say this on the basis of their actual behaviour rather than their stated aims. If I thought that their actions in Ottawa were actually being destructive, then I would be willing to expend more effort to "counter" them. Ie there is absolutely nothing that the BQ could accomplish (destructive or otherwise) without the willng participation of at least one truly federal party.

    The fact that the BQ regularly takes 40 to 50 seats out of play for both the CPC and the LPC, which then means that either of those two parties needs to win 60% of the remaining seats so as to reach a clear majority isn't destructive, it's just annoying (for some), and that is an annoyance that isn't that difficult for the other parties to work around if they really felt the need.

  • http://intensedebate.com/people/SeanStok Sean

    I was hoping someone more educated on the subject would jump in! Thanks. And my apologies to all for throwing such a confusing wrench into the works.

  • http://intensedebate.com/people/SeanStok Sean

    I simply recognize that the BQ has the legal right to exist as a federal party, and that we've pragmatically allowed them to do so for some time. We should avoid selectively using their separatist aims as a potential reason to exclude them from participation available to other MPs.

    As I said, I'm open to the idea of outlawing separatist parties outright, but in the absence of that we should question the coy game of only occasionally calling them out on it. It's part of a larger 'walking on eggshells' habit we have with Quebec, and one that I increasingly think has outlived its utility and justification.

    I'm not fully comfortable with mandating a certain level of candidacy for federal parties – such a law could prevent the future creation of parties from humble roots.

  • http://intensedebate.com/people/PhilCP Phil

    The benefit of cutting per-vote subsidies is that it would discourage parties that are too concentrated… or too thin…

    Huh? It favours the status quo? I'm surprised to read that you are "against change". Please tell me I've misinterpreted your thoughts!

  • Gaunilon

    Dollars per person may be similar, but dollars per riding is much higher. Within Quebec ridings the Bloc therefore has more money to spend than any other party. Without the per-vote subsidy they would lose this advantage and would likely win fewer ridings.

  • http://intensedebate.com/people/SeanStok Sean

    I'm not against change, and in fact I want to see change in the form of moving away from a perpetually fragmented parliament. Per vote subsidies make it easier for both the Greens and BQ (for different reasons) to survive (and help ensure minority parliaments). The subsidy provides less incentive for the BQ to expand its appeal beyond Quebec (I know, just pretend they're a regional, but non-separatist party for a moment). And it provides less incentive for the Greens to actually hunker down and focus on winning a seat or two (May's bizarre choice of ridings seems proof enough of that).

    I'm not saying it's the sole cause of these strategies or the fragmented parliament, just that it represents a well meaning idea that has spawned unintended consequences.

  • http://intensedebate.com/people/PhilCP Phil

    Are you sure?

    The BQ gets roughly $2.5 million per year, ostensibly to pander to 75 ridings ($33K / riding).
    The CPC gets roughly $10.0 million per year, ostensibly to pander 308 ridings ($33K / riding).

    Just to compare, the LPC, NDP and Green numbers are $23K, $16K and $6K respectively.

  • Gaunilon

    You're right, I stand corrected.
    I still think the Bloc would be crippled without that money to spend (it would have essentially none, as I understand it, without the per-vote subsidy). But your point is a good one: why are the other parties unable to compete effectively with the Bloc when they have the same per-vote money to devote to its ridings?

  • http://intensedebate.com/people/PhilCP Phil

    Prpetually fragmented? It might seem that way, but it hasn't really been that long, and it is unlikely to last. At basically any time the ROC can "decide" to coalesce behind either the CPC or the LPC (or the NDP or the Greens for that matter) and elect a majority. For now the voters seem to be unwilling to hand any federal party a majority, and that's what Parliament needs to work with.

    Your desire to move away from a perpetually(?) fragmented parliament seems like you are in favour of finding an expedient solution rather than buckling down to do the hard work that might be required to get things done in a parliament that is basically representative of what the various parts of our country want.

  • http://intensedebate.com/people/PhilCP Phil

    I'm not even 100% convinced that removing the per vote subsidy would cripple the BQ.

    I say that on the basis that the BQ has existed (ie been elected to the HoC) since 1993, and have netted between 38 to 54 seats in the 6 elections including that one in 1993. I don't recall the exact timing of the per vote subsidy, but I thought that it was near the end of Chretien's 3 terms, which means that the BQ was arguably just as successful in the 3 elections prior as compared to the 3 elections since the change.

  • Lord Kitchener's Own

    why are the other parties unable to compete effectively with the Bloc when they have the same per-vote money to devote to its ridings?

    Because the people of Quebec prefer the ideas and policies that Bloc candidates are putting forward?

  • RagingRanter

    He was multitasking.

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