How can a Bloc MP take this oath?

by Andrew Coyne on Wednesday, June 16, 2010 10:53pm - 169 Comments

Okay, so in order to see the Afghan detainee documents, members of the ad hoc committee set up by agreement between the government and opposition parties (minus the NDP) have to subject themselves to a long list of security measures. They have to sign a confidentality undertaking. They have to get security clearance. They can only view the documents in a “secure location.” They can’t bring staff with them, or any recording device, can’t remove any material or make copies. They can make notes on what they’re reading, provided they leave them on site, and destroy them in six months.

And they have to swear an oath. It’s described as an “oath of confidentiality.” But it’s not only that. Here’s the text:

I, [name], swear (or solemnly affirm) that I will be faithful and bear true loyalty to Canada and to its people, whose democratic beliefs I share, whose rights and freedoms I respect, and whose laws I will uphold and obey. I further swear (or solemnly affirm) that I will not communicate or use without due authority any information obtained in confidence during the review of documentation.

The second sentence is the oath of confidentiality. The first is something quite different: an oath of loyalty. Nothing remarkable in that. These are Members of the Parliament of Canada, after all. And the information they are being permitted to see, as the tight security rules imply, is of the most delicate nature. Nothing less than the national security of the country is at stake. Of course you’d only extend that right to people who were loyal to Canada, and had Canada’s best interests at heart.

Except … the Bloc Québécois signed this agreement. As such, it is entitled to nominate a member (plus an alternate) to sit on the committee. If you’re like me, you have a problem with people who are openly dedicated to the destruction of Canada being privy to our most sensitive national secrets. Still, I realize in this benighted country there are those who disagree. There are even people who think the Bloc should be allowed to participate in the executive government (as opposed to the legislature) of Canada.

Fine: except the terms of the agreement says no committee member can see the documents unless they swear to “be faithful and bear true loyalty to Canada and to its people.” Regardless of whether you think there should be such a loyalty test, there it is. Regardless of whether you think it is fair to subject the Bloc to such an obligation, they agreed to it. I’ll put aside my objection in principle to the Bloc seeing any of these documents if the Bloc can explain how they can possibly swear that oath.

“That I will be faithful and bear true loyalty to Canada and to its people”? Is this not an explicit repudiation of their party’s central purpose? If they swear such an oath, then, they can’t possibly mean it. And if they don’t mean it, what good is the oath? If they are taking one part of the oath, as it were, with their fingers crossed, who’s to say they are not doing the same with the other?

How, in good conscience, could the Bloc agree to swear an oath to one thing when it believes the exact opposite? Or never mind conscience: are there no legal consequences for swearing oaths in bad faith? Oaths aren’t just words on paper. They are legal documents. They are intended to ensure people make honest statements, where honesty is a vital necessity, as it surely is in matters of national security. And yet any Bloc MP who takes this oath must, by definition, be lying.

I realize the separatist movement has confronted this question before. It is a constitutional requirement, not only for Members of Parliament but for members of the National Assembly in Quebec, to swear an oath of loyalty to the Queen, and somehow they have managed to work themselves around to doing that. I recall Gilles Duceppe pointing out that there are members of the British Labour Party who don’t believe in the monarchy, and yet are permitted to swear a similar oath before entering their own Parliament. But this is something else again. There is no possible way to square “loyalty to Canada and its people” with membership in a party whose stated objective is to tear that same country, and its people, apart.

In which case, if we permit any Bloc MP to take this oath, it is not only the Blocquiste who would be committing a fraud, but us. And yet the oath speaks of upholding the laws!

ADDENDUM: Here’s the oath Members of Parliament (and of the provincial legislatures) are obliged to swear before taking office, as prescribed by Section 128 of the Constitution Act 1867 and set out in the Fifth Schedule:

I, [name], do swear, that I will be faithful and bear true Allegiance to Her Majesty Queen Elizabeth II.

In French:

Je, [nom], jure que je serai fidèle et porterai une vraie allégeance à Sa Majesté la Reine Élisabeth II.

But what do solemn and binding oaths mean in this country? What does anything? We are so used to looking the other way at the Bloc’s sincere and determined enmity that I suppose we will do the same with their mocking professions of loyalty.

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  • http://intensedebate.com/people/Mike514 Mike514

    Quick, someone cue the Bloc apologists on the Macleans comment board!

    • John D

      Quick, someone cue the jackasses!

    • http://intensedebate.com/people/Maplesoon Maplesoon

      I don't agree with the Bloc's position, but I do agree with the democratic principle of allowing anyone to form a political party for any cause. In the decades since independence was voted down, the Bloc has represented the interests of Quebec strongly. If any other party were willing to do this, then the electorate would support them in return.

      Why do you think the NDP does well in the Maritimes? The Liberals in metropolitan areas? The Conservatives in rural and the West? Because these parties respresent the interests and mindsets of the people that vote for them. Just because their opinions and mindsets are not yours, doesn't make them less Canadian. Just like you are not less Canadian if you disagree with me.

      • Pablo77

        I suspect the Bloc may view themselves as "less Canadian" when their "raisone d'etre" is one of becoming a separate and distinct country.

  • Marion

    How does this differ from the oath they take when they are sworn in?

    It sounds pretty similar to me, but I don't have the text at hand right now.

    • Marion

      And here you go: http://www2.parl.gc.ca/procedure-book-livre/Docum…

      The wording of the oath is as follows: “I, (Member’s name), do swear, that I will be faithful and bear true Allegiance to Her Majesty Queen Elizabeth the Second”.[221] As an alternative to swearing the oath, Members may make a solemn affirmation, by simply stating:[222] “I, (Member’s name), do solemnly, sincerely, and truly declare and affirm that I will be faithful and bear true allegiance to Her Majesty Queen Elizabeth the Second”.

      (watches Andrew's head explode)

  • jarrid

    Cutting the Bloc's federal election subsidy will correct the problem.

    Only last time that was talked about the Liberal and the NDP manned the ramparts in outrage – and in their outrage they then signed a deal with the Bloc to take over the executive government.

    If the Bloc can play the role of kingmakers in Parliament, signing an oath of loyalty to Canada despite their raison d'etre of destroying Canada as we know it is a mere irregularity in the grand scheme of things.

    In December 2008, the fox was on the verge of calling the shots in the henhouse. Lest we forget.

    • hollinm

      jarrid……..exactly!!!!!!!!!!!!!

      We need to cut the subsidy to all parties with the most important result being that we Canadians living outside of Canada do not have to support with our taxes the Bloc. The next thing is to pass a law which does not permit a party to sit in the federal House of Commons unless they run candidates in at least 75% of the ridings ( pick your prercentage).

      If we do not address this issue given the way the country has become regionalized we will end up with a number of protest parties i.e. Reform sitting in the House of Commons and nothing will get done which will benefit the country as a whole.

      • opine

        The election subsidy is directly correlated on votes counted. If you are not voting for the Bloc, you are not subsidizing them.

    • http://intensedebate.com/people/Maplesoon Maplesoon

      Sorry, I thought parliment was about finding the middle ground that's acceptable to the majority of Canadians, not about disabling those with an opinion contrary to your own.

      The Bloc still play kingmakers whenever the Liberals or NDP appear to be slacking. We have had 6 years of kingmaker ability in all the parties. The real question is who is willing to work for the advancement of Canada regardless of political affiliations.

  • Wassim

    I will be faithful and bear true loyalty to Canada and to its people, whose democratic beliefs I share, whose rights and freedoms I respect, and whose laws I will uphold and obey.

    The Bloc Québécois participates in the democratic process of Canada, as such, I would say it is safe to assume members of the BQ share those democratic beliefs, rights and freedoms that the rest of Canadians (including people in Québec) enjoy.

    As for the laws they will uphold and obey… Again, the Clarity Act is an official law in this land. Referendums are legal, provided the question and the majority is clear. The Bloc has never advocated any illegal manifestation of any kind.

    I see no contradiction.

    • http://intensedebate.com/people/andrewcoyne Andrew Coyne

      No contradiction? By what contortion can you make the Bloc bear "true loyalty to Canada and to its people"? I notice you don't even try.

      As for the Bloc never advocating any illegal manifestation of any kind, you're quite wrong. It is an article of faith among separatists — and some federalists — that Quebec is entitled to declare independence unilaterally. They might choose to negotiate the terms, so long as that proved advantageous (although Parizeau never believed in it), but they have always asserted the right to go to UDI if need be.

      That belief has never been recanted, even in the wake of the Supreme Court's ruling that such a rupture would be wholly unconstitutional. Nor have they ever accepted to be bound by the Clarity Act (though of course the Act itself binds only the government of Canada — it's the Supreme Court ruling that's binding on Quebec).

      • http://intensedebate.com/people/Ricard_S_Argent Richard_S_Argent

        Wait, are we now talking about separatists in toto or only Bloc MPs?

        • http://intensedebate.com/people/OlivierB Olivier

          It doesn't matter.

          Separatists are bad.

      • Mark

        I'm with you Andrew – and I fail to see how anyone who signed their name to a firewall letter in Alberta can be trusted to take this oath, either.

        • AT1

          Mark, perhaps you should actually read the contents of that letter before you embarrass yourself.
          (http://www.cbc.ca/canadavotes2004/leadersparties/leaders/pdf/firewall.pdf)

          The firewall referred to Fed-Prov jurisdictions, as noted in our constitution. In fact, some of the proposals, are already in effect in other parts of the country, such as provincially controlled pension plan, police force, tax collection.

          • Mark

            It appears that the only thing you people fear more than separatism is sarcasm.

        • http://intensedebate.com/people/hollinm hollinm

          Mark……of course lets make the discussion about Stephen Harper. You have to believe the man is some politician and an effective leader when all the discussion can never be about anything else but him. He truly has captured the imagination of the country for good or bad.

          You should read the firewall letter again. Hypocrit.

      • http://intensedebate.com/people/zamprelli4731 Zamprelli

        Separatists believe that their solution i in the best interests of both Quebec and the ROC, as they see it, and their respective people. I completely disagree, but that's what they think. THey are "loyal" in their eyes in that they treat the institutions with respect, and honestly believe their plan is best for all. Again, that's a load of bull imho, but their is no inconsistency in taking the oath.

        • Lord Kitchener's Own

          It's an interesting and not entirely implausible view, imho.

          If a Bloc MP truly believes that the separation of Quebec from the ROC would be best both for Quebec AND for the ROC, then, presumably, he or she would be being disloyal to Canada in NOT attempting to bring about the separation of Quebec. It's a twister, but looked at that way, I'm not sure it's logically inconsistent.

          • http://intensedebate.com/people/zamprelli4731 Zamprelli

            Indeed, these things are never as simple as they appear at first. A lot of people like to throw the word "treason" around when talking about separatists…until they actually meet one and realize that's not at all what's going on. They don't hate Canada – it's more that nationalism they feel for Quebec is much stronger then the nationalism they feel for Canada, which leads them to conclude that out model of federalism needs to be altered.

            Others Quebecers feel a stronger nationalism towards Canada than Quebec, and still others fee it more for Quebec then Canada but not to such a degree that it would require changing our federal model in any way (except maybe more consistent respect for the constitutional division of powers). Far from a black/white (yes/no) issue, there is a spectrum of opinion on the matter and a host of different views.

            For each individual Quebecer, the question is "does the nationalism I feel closely enough match the federalism under which I am governed?" The answer to that question might lead one to be a separatist, but it doesn't make him a traitor.

          • http://intensedebate.com/people/sourstud sourstud

            Except that there is only one Canada, and it includes Quebec. There is no Quebec and ROC in Canada. There is only Canada. Canada's a confederation of provinces, by advocating for the separation of one, you're effectively advocating the separation of them all. Which would be the end of Canada.

      • http://intensedebate.com/people/Thwim Thwim

        A person can be loyal to their spouse, and loyal to their boss, even if the two hate each other.

        Or are you arguing that anybody with dual citizenship can't be loyal to both countries? I don't see how somebody could not be both loyal to Canada and to an idea of a separate Quebec. Reconciliation between the two ideas simply means feeling that the separation of Quebec would be better for both Canada and Quebec.

        Whether you think such a belief is correct or not is irrelevant to the person swearing the oath.

        • justsayin'

          The analogy isn't great. Quebec can be loyal to the province and to the country (wife/boss) but not to a separate Quebec and to Canada (wife/2nd wife). As for dual citizenship….I've often thought that doing away with it would enhance loyalty to Canada. One wife.

  • Gaunilon

    "How can a Bloc MP take this oath?"

    Easy: they lie. It's not exactly a party of high-minded moral principle.

    • s_c_f

      On the contrary, if you desired to separate from Canada, then the moral way to do it would be the democratic way, by electing members to represent your desires.

      I'm not a BQ fan, but I don't think they're lacking morality, that's taking it a step too far. I just don't like their policies or principles. On the other hand, I consider some of the language laws they support to be lacking respect for human rights.

      • Gaunilon

        It's not their approach to separation that strikes me as immoral, but rather the social policies they espouse. Compared to those, I expect that lying under oath is small beans.

        Actually, scratch that. I think that gumming up the works of our nation's Parliament with the attitude that their province comes first strikes me as unethical as well. Like it or not, they are currently Canadian members of Parliament, and therefore they owe it to Canada to look out for the country's best interests first and Quebec's second.

        • http://intensedebate.com/people/s_c_f s_c_f

          OK, I agree that their social policies are immoral.

          therefore they owe it to Canada to look out for the country's best interests first and Quebec's second

          Not sure that's how the system works. MPs are intended to represent the interests of the citizens that elected them. They're not supposed to substitute the interests of others for the interests of their constituents (in theory, at least).

        • Richard

          "…gumming up the works of our nation's Parliament with the attitude that their province comes first strikes me as unethical."

          Others might argue that Ontario's MPs would similarly fit that bill.

    • Mike T.

      I can't see a party with seats that is, really.

  • jarrid

    "Easy: they lie. It's not exactly a party of high-minded moral principle."

    That's a pretty harsh assessment but it's hard to disagree. To the Bloc, everything is a means to an end. The end being political independance. They are completely single-minded in this endeavour, that single-mindedness should never, ever be underestimated.

    Holding seats in Parliament and gaining credibility for their cause amongst Quebecers is their short and medium term goal. To do that they have to lie about the oath. They'd wipe their behinds with that oath "dans une seconde". They reject Canada. Canadians should never forget who we're dealing with here. As the Liberals forgot in 2008 to their discredit. The Bloc are the enemy within. They'll behave only as long as it suits their utlimate goal: political separation and independance for Quebec.

    • MBToday

      I, [name], swear (or solemnly affirm) that I will be faithful and bear true loyalty to Canada and to its people, whose democratic beliefs I share, whose rights and freedoms I respect, and whose laws I will uphold and obey. I further swear (or solemnly affirm) that I will not communicate or use without due authority any information obtained in confidence during the review of documentation.

      I frankly believe some Conservatives of the old Reform fringe would truly have trouble with this Oath namely "faithful and bear true loyalty to Canada and to its people, whose democratic I share, whose rights and freedoms I respect" Namely they don't need to respect democracy cuz they are always right. Others would have had time with the rights and freedoms I respect bit. I suspect they would not respect my right and freedom to sing the National Anthem in the original lyrics oh well I guess they share that with the Blockers. Bonne nuit les amies et vive le Canada libre!

    • http://intensedebate.com/people/hollinm hollinm

      jarrid….I agree….I think because the Bloc has been sitting in the House for more than 20 years and has participated fully in our democratic institutions MPs and some Canadians tend to forgot that they have no interest in seeing Canada and the federation succeed. Their objectiive and only objective is to break the country apart.

      We cannot forget they are not some benign political party who has the best interests of the country at heart. Their job is to support the PQ in their attempts to gain power in Quebec and force another referendum.

  • http://www.macleansfordummies.blogspot.com Karen

    Loyalty is as loyalty does. If this writer wanted to fully explore the practicality of a loyalty oath he might focus less on The Bloc (who are Canadian, who ‘DO’ “canadian”) and more on Harper whose actions these last few days betray his greater loyalty to Israel than to Canada.

    • http://intensedebate.com/people/TwoYen TwoYen

      I cannot agree that criticizing an anti-Semite statement is considered betraying one's loyalty to Canada.

      • Mike T.

        There were anti-semitic statements by an MP? I'm horrified!

        Oh wait, you were talking about Libby Davies. Yawn.

    • ex canuck

      Karen, Deary, you're OTT.

    • hollinm

      Karen…..are you out of your cotton picking mind? This board is about the Bloc not about Stephen Harper. It goes to show that Harper, for good or bad, has captured the imagination of the country. He is one great politician.

      Not one discussion can take place where his name is not raised negatively. Your really need to get a grip. Canadians do not see Harper the same way you Libs/NDP ers do. They see a strong leader. They see opposition parties and their supporters who focus on process, strategies and tactics. To many Canadians this is all white noise and is ignored.

      That explains why the polls do not show any traction for any party. The country has been polarized but the fact remains that when an election comes there will only be two choices; a man who has led the economic recovery of Canada through a great recession and a man who has the political instincts of a knat and who has not shown any leadership. Guess who Canadians will pick. It won't be the feckless leader of the opposition.

    • RagingRanter

      Calling someone to task for musing about Israel's right to exist means he has a greater loyalty to Israel than to Canada? So loyal Canadians should also be musing about Israel's right to exist?

  • Pundits' Guide

    I believe the first part is the oath sworn by federal public servants when they join the civil service. Or very similar anyway.

  • http://twitter.com/LeDeenoe @LeDeenoe

    For god's sake, Mr. Coyne, can you focus on real issues, instead of trying to find twisted ways to discredit Gilles Duceppe and the Bloc Québécois – which we all know you love to do.

    I personally think that your interpretation of "loyalty" is skewed, at best.

    To this date, Québec is part of Canada. Quebecers are Canadians, that they want it or not. In a way – they are loyal to Canada, and even more, they are loyal to democracy in Canada, and they are loyal to their electorate.

    Federalists have this allergy to debate, it's almost unhealthy, and this is why Meech has failed, and it is also why separatism is regaining popularity – because federalists don't want to have the debate about the position of Quebec within Canada. If separatists wanted to be unloyal and commit treachery to Canada, we would have been in a civil war between Québec and Canada by now. The great rebellion.

    There is "loyalty" as in "I bend before thee and submit myself to my masters", there's loyalty in the sense in which our MPs, regardless their affiliation, are loyal to democracy and to the Parliament of Canada, and there's also loyal as a partner, as a brother. When Quebec separates – a matter of time – they will not turn around and burn the bridges down. They will stay loyal, as a partner. If somebody burns the bridges, it will some Canadians, especially those from Alberta, who will only rejoice and say "Good riddance!".

    • http://intensedebate.com/people/andrewcoyne Andrew Coyne

      Sigh. It's a perfectly simple concept. If you are loyal to something, you want to be a part of it. You are perfectly entitled to believe that Quebec should separate from Canada, helping itself along the way to one-sixth of the territory and leaving the pieces that remained to sort things out as best they could. But you cannot assert at the same time that you are being loyal to Canada. Your confusion on this point speaks volumes, or rather libraries.

      • TLG

        Mr. Coyne,

        It does not follow that if one is loyal, one necessarily wants to be a part of it. I can be loyal to my friend, but it doesn't mean that I will put that loyalty above any and all priorities. And one can be loyal to Canada while still wishing to leave it. Those concepts are not inconsistent; one can be perfectly loyal to an institution that has served you well (read: National Post) while leaving that institution because to form another for whatever reason (read: Macleans). Additionally, separatists do not seek the "destruction of Canada", they simply seek to separate it. I'm no separatist apologist, but you do yourself no favours by indulging in that intellectual shorthand.

        Further, to take your implied argument to its logical conclusion, if a person advocating separatism had to necessarily agree with your interpretation of the Parliamentary oath, then either a) a separatist could never serve in Parliament, or b) there's something wrong with this oath. I prefer the latter interpretation, particularly if the separatist were legitimately democratically elected.

        Finally, the purpose of this oath is to protect, in essence, the rule of law. It is asking those who swear it to respect the rule of law. Say what you will about the separatists, but they have proven themselves time and time again to respect democratic institutions and to operate within them (see: BQ, PQ, language laws and the Charter) and you ought to respect them as duly elected participants in the democratic process.

        I, like you, would prefer it if Ottawa were free from separatists. But it's not. Why? Because voters keep putting them there. And that basic democratic principle is more important, to me, than an archaic oath. Because voters are in control.

      • TLG

        My apologies for the second post. I realized something else I forgot to include in my prior, less than elegant comment.

        MPs have occasionally inconsistent mandates. They are frequently torn between what is "good for Canada" and what is "good for the constituency." Applying your argument, even if leaving Canada were in the interests of a constituency, or if a change to or even disobeying the laws of Canada were in the interests of a constituency, an MP would be conscience-bound to disregard the interests of her constituency because this oath demands loyalty.

        Surely it can't be that the oath requires an MP to disregard the interests of his constituency, can it? So why can it require an MP to disregard the interests of the voters who elected him, if those voters happen to be separatists?

        • http://intensedebate.com/profiles/tigerinexile Ben (The Tiger)

          Is being a separatist in Parliament consistent with bearing "true Allegience" to HM QEII?

          If not, well, the MPs are in violation of the oath.

          It's happened before — Louis Riel was elected twice to Parliament but never took his seat. Sinn Fein keeps on winning seats in the mother Parliament, but their members don't take their seats b/c they won't take the oath.

          Pretty simple language, and a pretty easy concept here.

          • MBToday

            Louis Riel was elected twice or was it three times? He did not take his seat because he was prevented from doing so! Orange dominated Ontario put a price on his head because they wanted revenge for Thomas Scott who was not very loyal to the duly elected provisional government of the Red River Settlement. He was more loyal to the Orange Lodges and his temper than anything else. I think Louis Riel actually signed the register for Members of Parliament but was prevented from proceeding to do anything else when he was recognized and fled before he could be arrested.

      • http://intensedebate.com/profiles/tigerinexile Ben (The Tiger)

        Coyne's getting negative votes for this simple statement of fact?

        Huh.

        +1.

      • http://twitter.com/LeDeenoe @LeDeenoe

        I notice that when somebody does not agree with you, they are confused, or simply don't get the issue.

        First off, I'm not pro-separation, or anything that involves Quebec separating.

        But the way I see it, Bloc MPs are in Ottawa to represent the interest of their constituents, like any MP on the hill – and you know what, they do their job pretty damn well. Whether they are separatists or not is not the question. RIght now, they serve the Parliament of Canada and the people, and, like I said, if they didn't want to work with Canada, they would of unilaterally separated by now. You will remark that, on some issues, the Bloc is able to speak with the other parties and with the Parliament, because they are issues where the interests of Canadians AND the interests of Quebec line up – such as in the afghan detainee issue. Your definition of loyalty and your attitude towards the Bloc speaks volumes, or rather libraries, on why Québec's place in Canada is an issue that has been dragging for so long.

    • jarrid

      "Federalists have this allergy to debate,…" As much as the separatist project is an unfortunate waste of energy on Canada as a whole, it's much worse for Quebec in particular.

      Instead of focusing energy on the many problems which plague Quebec society, such as an abysmal birthrate, a depressingly high drop-out rate in public schools which schools have lost the public's confidence resulting in the lowest education levels in Canada, chronically high public debt – et j'en passe – too much time and energy gets sucked into this nirvanic dream of separation where everything will be made right. Only it won't. The problems will still be there. And they will loom all the larger because of all the years they were festering while Quebecers indulged themselves in "debate". When action needs to be taken to adress real problems, talk and debate isn't the right thing to do. There is no real leadership going on in Quebec these days, only people who like to talk about rearranging the deck chairs on the Titanic

    • RagingRanter

      Federalists have this allergy to debate, it's almost unhealthy, and this is why Meech has failed, and it is also why separatism is regaining popularity – because federalists don't want to have the debate about the position of Quebec within Canada.

      So federalists are responsible for the seperation movement in Quebec. Got it.

    • Lord Kitchener's Own

      "In a way – they are loyal to Canada."

      Oh, well, as long as they're loyal "in a way" I guess it's fine then. Sorry, in this context, I'd say loyalty is like pregnancy. You're either loyal, or you're not. There's no way to be pregnant "in a way".

  • Crit_Reasoning

    Richard Nadeau is one of the two Bloc MPs who will swear the oath of loyalty to Canada. Here he is a few months ago, giving a rousing speech to hard-core sovereigntists. In this speech, he makes it explicitly clear that his only loyalty is to Quebec and the Quebec independence project.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vdkZwvZhbAE&fe…!

    • jarrid

      Good catch. More people have to be reminded where the Bloc's true loyalty lies. It's obvious but for some reason many english Canadians don't realize that political separation consumes the separatists quite literally day and night.

      We who live outside of Quebec have to help the majority of Quebecers who resist this waste of time and energy that is the separatist project. We do so not by not making life easy for the Bloc.

    • RagingRanter

      As long as the Bloc is what is keeping the Conservatives from a majoirty, and as long as the Bloc inhabits the left end of the political spectrum, we can expect progressives to defend them.

      • http://intensedebate.com/people/VinceClortho VinceClortho

        And yet I wouldnt say that all the MP's and certainly not all of the areas the Bloc represent would be "left wing" when released from the shackles of ethnic nationalism. Would a large chunk of Bloc seats go to the Liberals or the NDP if the Bloc ceased to be….yes….but a signifcant number would be conservative, probably more than enough to give the cons a majority if nothing else changed in other provinces.

        The Libs and NDP actually need the Bloc to keep the 20 to 25 Quebec seats from going conservative.

  • Andrew (not P or C)

    If Bloc MPs are traitors, why have they not yet been summarily executed?

    • TedTylerEzro

      Do we execute for treason these days?

    • RagingRanter

      Do you have any idea how hard it is to stickhandle and execution warrant through the courts these days??

      • Dick Richards

        Harper hasn't got is Majority yet

  • BradP

    I don't see as much of a problem with their oath of allegiance; it's to the Queen and it doesn't say "Queen of Canada." Legally, right now, HMERII is Quebec's head of "state," and all executive power in the province flows from her. She is, effectively, Quebec, and there's no problem professing loyalty to her with the understanding that it's in function an oath to Quebec.

    The new oath to Canada is another matter entirely. For the apologists, I could see their swearing it being okay if it were couched in "until such time as Quebec is released from its terrible bonds of servitude," but that's not the language. It's not conditional.

    One would wish that Parliament would say "sorry, you can't take this oath and be committed to the obliteration of the country you're swearing loyalty to," but that would be like hoping for the Libs to get a spine or something.

  • Loraine Lamontagne

    What concept of Canada are you loyal to when it is secondary in your opinion whether Canada ends up as one national government or two national governments or several national governments?

  • Jean-François Fortin

    Quebecers democratically elected should have fewer rights than Canadians democratically elected? This kind of argument explains why the independence thing will not die anytime soon.

    • http://intensedebate.com/people/VinceClortho VinceClortho

      I like consistent logic. So if Canada is divisible so is Quebec.

      • AT1

        Fair enough Vince, but remember how Parizeau was pilloried after the '95 referendum for even mildly musing that non-francophone were less relevant and that old stock francophones had their dreams stolen.

        I don't see this as any different. The Bloc have been responsible when it comes to dealing with national security issues and Quebecers would not tolerate it any other way. Remember that quite a few Quebecers serve in our armed forces. The Bloc, therefore, has a role to play in viewing the documents.

        • http://intensedebate.com/people/VinceClortho VinceClortho

          I think this statement is consistent with them having the same rights AND responsibilities as other Canadians. But this argument usually falls apart on the sovereigntist side when you say that there "country" is equally divisible as Canada was.

          How that relates to them on the oath. Well, my comment below addresses that. You have to take them at their word, but that doesnt mean the institutions that are charged with ensuring these promises are kept dont do their job. Trust but verify. So whether it is CSIS or the RCMp or an intelligence arm of the Forces who are the proper authorities but they would be wise to monitor ALL of those MP's for a couple of years on this very matter. To do otherwise would be irresponsible of them. Trust but verify. If the Bloc Mp's, or any of the MP's, are willing to submit to the scrutiny of having Secret clearance and all that implies before and after then fine. They are MP's, they claim to be making the oath honestly…..just make sure they are and they continue to fulfill their obligations. If they get a little extra scrutiny, I think you can say it is justified.

    • Pundits' Guide

      Are you the same Mr. Fortin who is the new Bloc candidate in Haute-Gaspésie-La Mitis-Matane-Matapédia, by any chance?

      • Jean-François Fortin

        No. And before you asked it: I'm not the hockey player who played with the Washington Capitals in 2001-2004. But it's a nice try.

  • jarrid

    One apparently unforeseen consequence of the December 2008 Coalition is how it has legitimized the Bloc Quebecois's image with the political center-left and left in Canada.

    The Bloc's "alliance" with the Liberal Party and the NDP was of course never going to be for long – it was only going to be an 18- month marriage. It was a purely tactical alliance by all three parties. The Bloc has clearly benefitted the most from this arrangement as it has given them a political legitimacy that it never had in the rest of Canada.

    The most stunning development to me in the whole 2008 December Coalition was the backing it got from the staunch federalist Jean Chrétien. He encouraged making a poltiical pact with peolple whose raison d'etre is the destruction of Canada as we know it. And that was the one thing I respected him for.

    • jarrid

      To be clear, I respected Jean Chrétien's staunch federalism, not that he encouraged the Coalition deal with Duceppe. Maybe I shouldn't be that surprised: this is the man after all who all but lost the 1995 referendum because of how the federalist side got mauled by the separatists during the referendum campaign. A federalist campaign which he himself directed.

      Canada came within a whisker of being destroyed under Jean Chétien watch and direction. He also, unwittingly no doubt, helped the separatist's cause with his contribution to the 2008 Coalition.

      Jean Chétien should stick to golf.

      • Mark

        To be fair – Chretien didn't have a hand in the referendum campaign until its dying days. That was a mistake, and a regret that he himself has expressed. The idiots in the PLQ insisted that "Ottawa" stay home.

        But jarrid, if you think the federalist side might have performed a little better under the leadership of Preston Manning, you are entitled to your own view.

        • jarrid

          Your point about Chretien being sidelined by the provincial Liberals until the 11th hour is quite valid. I'd forgotten about that.

    • DeanP

      Um, recall that Harper legitimized the idea of coalition with the bloc long before the Liberals did. And the Dec 08 coalition was only NDP-Liberal, with Bloc support.

      • jarrid

        "… the Dec 08 coalition was only NDP-Liberal, with Bloc support."

        The Bloc were the kingmakers in the December 1st Coalition agreement, without their support, signed on the dotted line, the coalition could not have gotten off the ground. Those 49 Bloc MPs were crucial to the success of the coalition.

  • Reverend Blair

    Er, like them or not, Bloc MPs are democratically elected by their constituents. Having watched them in parliament, I've found them to be honourable, respectful of our system and our rules, and willing to work with other parliamentarians. I have no problem with them taking the oath. In fact, indications are that they are more likely to live up to it's spirit than either the Liberals or Conservatives.

    Now if only they'd quit trying to break up the country…

  • http://intensedebate.com/people/Stewart_Smith Stewart_Smith

    Coyne, Can't one respect and be loyal to a couple and still recognize that they would be better off separated? Indeed, if one believes they would each be better off on their own, how could one remain loyal and not support their separation?

    On numerous occasions, Bloc leaders have made the case that not only would Quebec be better off as a separate country but that the ROC would benefit too. Indeed, many of the same group that will support you strongly in this will have written other posts under the general meme "why don't they just go already". In addition to the jughead argument, there have recently been several serious commentators arguing that the economic contortions that Canada goes through to appease Quebec may not be worth it.

    I don't personally buy any of the above. The Bloc leadership may or may not believe that the ROC will be better off as an intellectual argument, but I don't for a minute believe they actually care. Nevertheless, their signing of the oath is consistent with their previous arguments because always a true loyalist means being true to both the people and the institutions of a country. If those two interests come in conflict, (which the Bloc would argue they are) then the interest of the people must take priority.

  • http://intensedebate.com/people/OntarioTown OntarioTown

    An athiest has to swear on the Bible if he/she goes to court. Does that mean he/she can lie because they don't believe in the Bible?

    • jarrid

      "An athiest has to swear on the Bible if he/she goes to court."

      What planet do you live on OT, seriously?

    • RagingRanter

      They don't have to swear on a bible anymore. They just have to raise their right hand and swear an oath to tell the truth to the court.

      • http://intensedebate.com/people/OntarioTown OntarioTown

        I wasn't aware of that – thank you for letting me know. The issue is on my mind actually (I'm not insane) because someone I know will be called as a witness in a court case. This person is a devout athiest and some friends have been teasing him about swearing on the Bible.

        Just timing.

        • RagingRanter

          Your point is a good one. I agree, swearing on a bible despite atheistic beliefs does not make one dishonest or unprincipled in my opinion. It's just something they're expected to do because the system requires it (or used to require it as the case may be). As I stated below, Sinn Fein candidates who have been elected to the UK Parliament have always refuesed to take their seats specifically beacuse they woulnd't swear an oath to the Queen. Yet I do not believe this more "principled" stance is in any way favourable to the Bloc's.

          • MBToday

            Have you guys event been to court? A Canadian court? You do not raise your right hand and place your left on the Bible, that is an American thing. The Bible (If you so wish it) is place in front of you and you solemnly swear or affirm that you with tell the thruth etc.. etc..

  • http://intensedebate.com/people/VinceClortho VinceClortho

    It essentially means as much as oath all those wonderful soon to be Bloc MP's took after the 1988 election. Of more concern is how much the security clearance investigation means. Probabaly about as much as the one conducted on Marcel Masse when he became Minister of national Defence in 1991….remember he became the chair of one of the committees that went around Que leading into the referendum…not studying but propogandizing independence.

    Anyway, we dont have a brain scan to see if any of these MP's are committed to other struggles that would take precedence over their stated committments.

    The only answer with the Bloc members is the old Reagan statement, trust but verify. It would be irresponsible of CSIS or whoever the appropriate agency is not to be looking for leaks from anyone on that committee.

  • MikeB

    I'm no Bloc apologist, but I think your premise is wrong. The Bloc don't seek to destroy Canada, they only seek to take Quebec out of it. While this would certainly be disruptive, to state that Quebec separation automatically leads to the destruction of the rest of Canada as an entity reveals little faith in durability of our our society and institutions, and far too much weight to the importance of Quebec to the national fabric. Quebec leaves, and we all go boohoo, fold up tent, put away the flag and join the U.S.? Hardly.

    Anyway, you could probably argue that Bloc MPs are capable of being loyal to Canada right up until the moment they are no longer a part of Canada, if they achieve their aims legitimately and democratically.

    • John D

      If the Bloc want to "destroy" Canada, then by that logic all the "Please, we've had enough of your whining Quebec, just leave" Canadians are equally treasonous?

    • http://intensedebate.com/people/sourstud sourstud

      "The Bloc don't seek to destroy Canada, they only seek to take Quebec out of it."

      Thats tantamount to my doctor saying he doesn't want to kill me, he just wants me to exist with a few less vital organs. The fact is that Canada includes Quebec. Without Quebec, Canada becomes something different. There is no "rest of Canada" in Canada, there is only Canada.

      • Dick Richards

        So if Quebec does leave sourstud, will you be the first to throw yourself off a bridge? Life will probably just go on for me

        • http://intensedebate.com/people/sourstud sourstud

          Hehe, nope – not throwing myself off of anything any time soon (except maybe a good looking blond lady) . I wouldn't shed a tear for Quebec leaving Canada. Legally however, Canada still includes Quebec. Till that's changed, by whatever means, I still consider Quebec to be Canadian.

  • John D

    I think it's a little immature to say that the Bloc want to "destroy" Canada. But I have a crazy idea: Why doesn't someone ASK the Bloc MPs what they think of the oath? If only there were poeple who got paid to ask politicians questions rather than idly speculating…

  • http://intensedebate.com/people/WDM WDM

    What about anti-monarchists, should John Manley have been allowed to serve in Cabinet?

  • Mike T.

    Merits of the author's argument aside, it seems like the alternative would be to prevent certain elected members of parliament from taking seats or participating in certain government activities based upon an interpretation of a very general statement. Given these two choices, I think we go with the right one.

  • http://intensedebate.com/people/hollinm hollinm

    I had the same reaction as Coyne when I read the oath. I thought how could any Bloc member of the committee sign that oath? Obviously it is a farce and really doesn't mean anything.

    The Bloc will tie themselves into pretzels trying to explain how they can sign such an oath but we all know as Coyne says it is a lie.

    It really doesn't matter because the results of reviewing 40,000 pages of documents will take years and by that time Harper will have his majority, the Libs will have a new leader, Gilles will be still trying to break up the country and Jack will be on the outside looking in.

    • http://intensedebate.com/profiles/tigerinexile Ben (The Tiger)

      It sill matters in that seeing people perjure themselves so casually is destructive.

      Time was when traitors won seats in parliament, they would refuse to take them (or they'd be expelled) because they couldn't in good conscience take the oath.

      • RagingRanter

        Actually, I'm far more comfortable with those who just "go along with the oath because we have to" than with the more principled types who would refuse to take such an oath. I've provided an example of what I mean below.

      • http://intensedebate.com/people/VinceClortho VinceClortho

        Like Sinn Fein MP's….they wont swear the loyalty to the Queen oath. They are allowed to speak, they can ask questions but they arent allowed to vote. Perfectly reasonable.

        Now the SNP takes the oath and gets their vote, like the Bloc.

    • http://intensedebate.com/people/sourstud sourstud

      "Gilles will be still trying to break up the country"

      No, he won't. Gilles will be quietly collecting his massive pension from the taxpayers of the country he loathes so much.

  • Bonko

    You can't contract away legal rights, and you can't oath away UN recognized human rights, such as the right to self determination.

    Yes, the oath clearly contradicts the Bloc's raison d'etre. It also would be problematic for myself and a few million other Canadians who do not support Canadian positive "rights", which are arbitrary to begin with and arbitrarily enforced, and aren't rights but rather serious incursions of liberty which make us less free.

    • http://intensedebate.com/people/VinceClortho VinceClortho

      Great, so Quebec is divisible after all…..glad there is broad agreement on that…..well except from the sovereigntists

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