Beyond The Commons

 Beyond The Commons

Aaron Wherry covers all the goings-on in and around Parliament Hill. Follow Aaron on Twitter: @aaronwherry

Categories: Beyond The Commons, Capital Read

Libertarian if necessary, but not necessarily libertarian

by Aaron Wherry on Friday, July 9, 2010 12:42pm - 0 Comments

The research and social planner for Calgary—that bastion of nanny statists—voices his objection to the census changes. Stephen Gordon wonders if the government will do away with the coercive and intrusive Labour Force Survey (source of those job growth numbers that Conservatives are only too happy to celebrate). And now Dan Gardner gets his kicks in.

Yes, the staunch libertarian principles of the government. The Harper government. The government that thinks marijuana decriminalization is a Marxist plot, an adult who agrees to consensual sex in exchange for money should be imprisoned, the police did a fine job at the G20, and Omar Khadr can rot in a tropical gulag.

But requiring citizens to fill out a form which is absolutely essential to sound public policy and social science? An outrageous violation of individual liberty.

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  • http://intensedebate.com/people/bergkamp bergkamp

    I agree with the snarky first paragraph but think second is ridiculous. Census is all about control and nothing to do with sound public policy (have no idea what Gardner is referring to about social science). Any adult over the age of 21, say, has been asked a million questions, and filed out endless forms, from the government.

    Government already has way more info about us than it really needs and if Con Government was really serious about libertarian principles the census would be abolished because The State has no legitimate reason to know anything about me if I have not broken the law.

    • Lord Kitchener's Own

      have no idea what Gardner is referring to about social science

      I would have thought you'd want to understand the many ways in which Census data is used before deciding it's fine to screw it up.

      • http://intensedebate.com/people/bergkamp bergkamp

        I was trying very hard not to get into the merits of the social sciences. I am not a big fan of argument that I have to provide lots of personal info to strangers for the nutters in Sociology or Women's Studies to mull over and pronounce on.

        • Emily

          Yes, by golly. Someone might find out you have 3 bedrooms in your house. Quelle scandal!

          • bergkamp

            I am curious to know your salary, where you live, who you live with, how many tv's you own, and did you finish high school?

            Everyone who is pro-census should have no problems/issues with providing us that info here at Macleans blogs because it apparently does not matter if strangers know all about you.

          • Emily

            Well your salary is on your tax return. Your address is in any of a dozen phonebooks, or on the web. Look yourself up sometime. I live with my family…most people do you know.

            School records are also available, and it's no state secret how many TVs I own.

            Strangers know all about you anyway….ask your neighbours. They even know how many times and how loudly you argue.

            Are you ashamed of any of your information? Then why are you doing it?

            As to how any of this is used to 'control' you….well, that's a mystery.

          • Guy

            So we don't really need the census then. Thanks for the confirmation!

          • Emily

            We definitely need the census. Even Calgary is complaining about this.
            http://www.winnipegfreepress.com/canada/breakingn…

          • Guy

            But if none of my life is a secret, then why a census? We already know that the pencil-pushers in Ottawa think they know everything already.

          • Lord Kitchener's Own

            Do you have any idea how long it would take to data mine all the thousands of places where your personal information can be found, collect it all together, separate the wheat from the chaff, collate it, and then combine it together with all of the data found on all 33 million of your neighbours??? I mean, I think it could be done. If you don't want an armed forces. Or hospitals. Or roads. Or tap water…

            No, leave that to the groups with big money and the data mining and algorithmic expertise. Like Google.

            Canada needs the census.

          • Guy

            Since we already collect the necessary data provincially, you're talking EDI. So, it's a matter of agreement of software and format and voila, aggregate data on a monthly basis. This is already done to some extent already.

            Not all of the data in the census is necessary for good governance.

          • Emily

            Because it puts all the info needed for planning and building in one form, and allows for a full and valid report. You wanna pay for the kind of data-gathering you suggest? LOL

            You really think anyone cares about your 'secrets'? They see thousands of these things.

          • Guy

            So one less shouldn't matter.

          • http://intensedebate.com/people/Thwim Thwim

            One less doesn't.

            However, when a whole bunch of those "ones" are all from similar demographic backgrounds then it adds up.

          • Guy

            You're right. And this is what has been happening on the mandatory form. Hundreds of thousands of unreturned, missing, incorrect and coerced forms. Lets add to this the massaging of information done by StatsCan and you have garbage for information.

            As an example, my provincial electoral district was recently changed based on the 2006 census. However, a large portion of the district did not exist in 2006. The next redistribution will be in 2019, based on the 2016 census. The next election after that will be in 2022. Since the last provincial election was in 2007, this means my area will be significantly under represented for 15 years. Useless.

            The city has just approved building a new fire hall in a new sub-division near my home. This sub-division was not approved in 2006 so absolutely no data existed from the census to aid in the decision making. However, the city knows how many houses will be built in the sub division and how many houses are within an effective distance of the new fire all. No census information was used and none would have been needed. The city bases infrastructure decisions based on its own information, not the census. Again, the census is useless.

            I make these points( and there are more) to illustrate that the information for good governance exists in other places and that this information is more accurate and not dated. Whether the long form is mandatory or voluntary is moot, the information is useless in any case.

            Now again, why would you threaten to throw me in jail because I don't want to tell the government how many toilets I have?

          • Lord Kitchener's Own

            Yes, because everyone knows that StatsCan has a public website where everyone's name is attached to every detail from the Census they've ever provided to StatsCan, and it's freely available for anyone to look at. 'Cause it's not like it would be totally illegal for Statistics Canada to do that.

            So you're right, filling out the Census long form is exactly like posting all of that information on the Macleans blogs right next to your real name.

          • http://intensedebate.com/people/bergkamp bergkamp

            Lord Kitchener's Own is your real name? Poor you.

            The point is you are providing personal info to strangers and have no idea what they are doing with it. I see no difference between me knowing your salary and who you live with than anon bureaucrats at StatsCan.

          • Emily

            Well what COULD they do with it?

            What could YOU do with it?

          • Guy

            Canvassers for StatsCan have access to your completed form with your name still attached. So, the canvasser has access to your personal information attached to your name and address. I am certain parents with young children are one demographic that would not be too thrilled with that.

          • http://intensedebate.com/people/doug_rogers doug_rogers

            Oh! Think! Of! The! Children!

          • http://intensedebate.com/people/Stewart_Smith Stewart_Smith

            I have good news and bad news for you Mr. Kamp.

            The bad news is that virtually all Maclean's readers know your favorite colour, bank and World Cup soccer team.

            The good news is I think you're team is going to win.

          • http://intensedebate.com/people/bergkamp bergkamp

            Are you Netherlands fan as well? They are playing well but not great and Spain are looking good. I can't wait till final on Sunday.

          • http://intensedebate.com/people/Stewart_Smith Stewart_Smith

            I would be more of a fan if they were still playing total football, but yes I went with them because I still find them the best to watch. I agree, Spain is finally coming around so it should be a great final.

          • http://intensedebate.com/people/Halo_Override Halo_Override

            I'll trade that information for the geolocation of your fortified cottage in the woods.

          • Marion

            You are welcome to have the information for my census tract:
            http://www12.statcan.ca/census-recensement/2006/d…

        • Anon

          And what about the Canadian Association for Business Economics or the Canadian Economics Association? They're up in arms over the changes to the census, as well. Are they also just a bunch of leftist "nutters'?

        • Lord Kitchener's Own

          If we keep the data hidden from the sociologists and the scholars in Women's Studies departments, would you let us keep collecting it for the economists and the geographers and the urban planners and the historians and the anthropologists and the linguists and the political scientists, and the people studying health policy, and transit policy, and industrial relations, and marketing, and housing policy, and doing recruitment…

          • Bob

            Wait, is that an option? Because that sounds awesome!

      • Stewart_Smith

        bergkamp's world must be an interesting place.

        Queen: Prime Minister Harper, I am greatly enjoying this visit and find it remarkable how Canada has grown since my last visit. What is the population these days?

        PM: Well your majesty, our best information is about 50,000.

        Queen: Why I thought it much more… where are these Canadians living?

        PM: The men in Kingston, Milhaven, Donnacona, Beaver Creek, Frontenac, Port-Cartier and Kent , women at Nova, Joliette, Vanier and Grande Valley.

        Queen: You keep them all separate?

        PM: Believe me Queen, it is for their own safety.

        Queen: I note that the men's places outnumber the ladies.

        PM: True for every female Canadian we are aware of we have almost 20 men. I guess that would be good news for the women if they ever got out.

        Queen: Well then, I hear you're an economist, what are current Canadian employment rates?

        PM: This is a little embarassing, 0%. However, my new Canadian government is going to bring in hard labour for at least some of them.

        Queen: Well, you seem to have your hands full, any other problems.

        PM: A big one, our figures are showing that the number of Canadians is dropping. However, we are confident that our new law and order bill will resolve that tout suite.

        Queen: Don't get fresh with me and who are you calling toots.

    • http://intensedebate.com/people/ZestyMordant ZestyMordant

      Census is all about control? What a ridiculous statement. The only way census is used as a control is in the statistical sense. Can you give any examples of how census data has been used to "control" you or anyone else? Sounds like a paranoid fantasy to me.

      One can only hope the government will eventually come to their census.

  • http://intensedebate.com/people/NorthernPoV NorthernPoV

    So the chattering classes all agree on the stupidity of this census debacle.
    Trouble is:
    * this plays to Harper's base,
    * increases government ability to make decisions that are in their own narrow interest but are bad for the
    country
    * the folks who are really upset were never potential Harper voters
    * the 10-15% of actual voters that are "swing voters" will view the controversy as more "squabbling politicians" and reinforce a bias to the status quo

    Over all, a big-win for Harper and his thugs

    • Lord Kitchener's Own

      I guess I still hold out hope that enough pressure can be brought to bear for the government to reverse this asinine decision. I can't even see how this is a big win for Team Harper. Sure, maybe it plays to the base a bit, but if it's true that most of the people who are upset about this wouldn't vote for Harper anyway (which I disagree with, but I'll stipulate that it's true for the sake of argument) I'd say it's even MORE true that anyone who supports this decision wasn't ever going to vote for anyone BUT the Tories.

      Unless this is really about a deep seeded desire by the Tories to implement a bunch of policies that they KNOW aren't supported by factual evidence and that the think they couldn't pass if confronted with evidence from the "reality-based" community, I just don't see why they'd stick to their guns if there's enough of a stink made.

      • Guy

        If Harper was really a control freak, he would be asking for MORE information. He is not just pandering to his base. There is a significant faction of Canadians out there against the census, all across the political spectrum. It was manifested quite strongly in 2006 and from what I have seen, opponents will be more motived in 2011 to disrupt the census.

        I will point out again that the information provided by the mandatory form is not very good at all. WIth a non-return rate of 5%, any margin of error has already been eliminated. Add the thousands of responses with honest errors and the thousands with intentional errors and the confidence level of the data is too low. If you ignore the 5% non-return rate, you are self selecting the data, which apparently is the argument for keeping the long form mandatory in the first place. Let's add the fact that StatsCan will "project" results where there are hole in the data, based on "methodological" notes developed for the census. And, finally, it takes 2 years for StatsCan to process and analyze the data. So the 2011 data will not be available until mid-2013. Now if you need to make a decision in late 2012 based on census data, the information you are looking at will be based on 2006 data, or projected to 2012. Using this information is poor governance and explains all the screwed up social policy in this country.

        Real, current and accurate information already exists both at the Federal and Provincial levels. Use that instead.

        • Guy

          P.S. If the Liberals and NDP try to make this an election issue, they will get their heads handed to them. Politically, there is no good argument for making a bureaucracy more powerful and larger. I'm sure Harper and the Conservatives know this and they have already framed the issue (I suspect the Liberals & NDP know this too; that's why they've been so quiet). And make no mistake, this is all politics.

          • Emily

            Yes, it's all politics….it has nothing to do with the good of the country …because it's not good.

            And yes, a great many people care about this stupid move, and they add it to every other stupid move Harper has made.

          • Guy

            And then vote for him because his stupid moves are less stupid than what Ignatieff and Layton would pull off.

          • Emily

            No, Harper is in a field of stupid all by himself.

            Now stop being partisan, and focus on the country's future.

            The world runs on information these days….and you want to play North Korea.

          • Guy

            North Korea keeps far better tabs on their citizens than Canada does right now. A mandatory census is pushing us closer to the North Korean model.

            I do not understand why you would rather throw me in jail for not telling the government how many toilets I have than respect the fact I prefer my privacy.

          • Lord Kitchener's Own

            A mandatory census is pushing us closer to the North Korean model.

            How is continuing to do something we've been doing since 1871 pushing us closer to the North Korea model? Have I unknowingly been putting up with a North Korean style government for my entire life?

            Oh, and even the long form of the Census doesn't ask how many toilets you have.

          • http://intensedebate.com/people/doug_rogers doug_rogers

            Watch! Out! A! Slippery! Slope!

        • http://intensedebate.com/people/Jenn_ Jenn_

          Wait a minute. So in the interests of personal privacy you would have government departments and crown corporations hand out personal information they have collected on citizens for a purpose other than a census? And this makes sense to you, does it?

        • http://intensedebate.com/people/Thwim Thwim

          Okay.. in order:
          1. You don't need more information to enact more control. Having less information indeed makes it easier presuming that you have to deal with anybody who has real concern for people's freedom.

          2. A lack of perfect information does not imply that the attempt should not be made to the best of our ability. And in fact, your arguments all points to problems that would be best solved with *increased* penalties for not filling out the forms and stronger enforcement of this.

          3. Make up your mind. Is the problem people in the government sharing information or not?

    • tedbetts

      On the contrary. I think this is one of those issues a party thinks they can quietly slip through to bolster a part of its base thinking no one else cares including the rest of their base, and then get surprised by how much the rest of their base actually does care, like the link to Calgary up above.

      When, according to EKOS this week, about 50% of decided voters and 70% of undecided voters think that Harper's government is headed in the wrong direction, this has boneheaded move all over it.

      • Guy

        Although in the same poll 52% of Canadians believe the country is headed in the right direction. EKOS must be using that fantastic StatsCan data to weight the poll.

        • http://intensedebate.com/people/Thwim Thwim

          I think the words "in spite of" may be used here.

  • Emily

    Well sees, ya picks and ya chooses….little pander-goodies to everyone in your base…even when the directions contradict each other, and harm the country.

  • Steve M

    "The research and social planner for Calgary—that bastion of nanny statists"

    I'm assuming that Aaron is trying to be sarcastic, but actually, despite the conserative lock on Alberta's Federal and Provincial seats, City Hall in Calgary is mostly made up of people who would be solidly Liveral or NDP in Fed/Prov politics. It was one of many things that surprised me when I moved out here.

  • keith

    This was an apparently sound and consistent Tory strategy, in keeping with Tory principles. Unfortunately, it was also political interference with an agency that produces valuable stats used by both private business and governments. Having worked on the last Census, and for very little money (it averaged two dollars an hour), I know how unpopular the long form is. Sad to say, but it is immigrant and lower socio-economic groups who object the most to filling it out, because they don't understand why the data is needed: to assess future needs in infrastructure, hospitals, social programs, etc. They are voters and they are entitled to object to the intrusion (and it is an intrusion); the irony is that they are disenfranchising themselves, even marginalizing themselves further. And the Tory govt is only too happy to exploit their ignorance.

  • Lord Kitchener's Own

    If any of these people who are so paranoid about the Census ever get an inkling of how much Google knows about them, I think their heads might explode.

    And I just have to assume that none of them owns a cell phone (And hey, if any of you owns a cell phone, especially one that's less than 10 years old, turn it off, remove the battery, and throw it away somewhere other than at your home. If you're this worried about Statistics Canada there's NO WAY that you should be walking around with a cell phone, even if its turned off most of the time.)

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