Beyond The Commons

Beyond The Commons

Aaron Wherry covers all the goings-on in and around Parliament Hill. Follow Aaron on Twitter: @aaronwherry

The grab bag

by Aaron Wherry on Thursday, July 15, 2010 11:53am - 0 Comments

Ned Franks takes on the blight of omnibus legislation.

In far too short a period, the House and Senate finance committees examining C-9 had to inform themselves and vote on changes and innovations to taxation and other financial measures. They had to consider amendments to the laws governing pensions and the Federal-Provincial Arrangements Act. They had to examine a Canada-Poland agreement on social security, a proposal to eliminate Canada Post’s monopoly over mail to be delivered outside Canada, provisions to permit credit unions to act as banks, and legislation permitting to sell off much of AECL. Other provisions of C-9 permit fundamental changes to the environmental review process.

This is only a few of the topics in C-9. Many of these sections have little if any relationship to the budget – they should have been presented to Parliament as stand-alone bills and examined by the appropriate specialist committees.

This could all be dismissed as somehow arcane, but, as noted a couple months ago, a suggestion from the Liberal leader at an event here in Ottawa that Parliament cease with the practice of omnibus legislation won fairly substantial applause from the brothers and sisters of Canada’s trade unions. Note too, roughly along these same lines, that when Mr. Ignatieff took questions yesterday, two Kingstonites rose with questions about relatively obscure bits of legislation.

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  • Bob

    "This could all be dismissed as somehow arcane, but, as noted a couple months ago, a suggestion from the Liberal leader at an event here in Ottawa that Parliament cease with the practice of omnibus legislation won fairly substantial applause from the brothers and sisters of Canada’s trade unions."

    It got applause from unions and so isn't arcane?

    • sbt

      I laughed at that too. Especially since the applause was probably specifically aimed at stopping this particular omnibus bill and not stopping omnibus bills in general. If there was an omnibus bill containing stuff the unions largely supported I suspect the applause from them would likely be be more muted.

      • Orson Bean

        Exactly. And if the federal government was led by the NDP, I suspect that their brethren in the Canadian Labour Congress would have no problem with omnibus bills proposed and passed by that particular government.

    • http://intensedebate.com/people/lgarvin lgarvin

      Tony Clement, the minister in charge of Statistics Canada, said: “I don’t accept that every time you make a change on every matter of government business, you have to shout it from every rooftop.”

      Dalton McGuinty was not available for comment.

  • http://intensedebate.com/people/LynnTO LynnTO

    So is this why are we talking about this now, after the omnibus bill has been given royal assent? It just wasn't cool enough when it was threatening our entrenched institutional processes, but it is now that it's trampled them?

    • http://intensedebate.com/people/Stewart_Smith Stewart_Smith

      The temporal relationship between escaping horses and the closing of barn doors comes to mind.

  • http://intensedebate.com/people/WDM WDM

    If Iggy had such a problem with omnibus legislation, he could have stopped it. Budget came out in March, and the Tories had a prorogation head wound. If the Liberals said they'd pass the spending, provided the non-budget elements were dropped and re-introduced as stand alone legislation, I can't envision a scenario where the Conservatives refused in the context of what was the issue of the day (respect of Parliament).

    • http://intensedebate.com/people/tedbetts tedbetts

      Well they did. And threatened an election over it. And the weak opposition so fearful of being out-messaged on any issue, folded pretty quick. They did not do their jobs, but Harper is circumventing Parliament and damaging the country and democracy knowing he can get away with it. Had Iggy said, no, we need to act responsibly here, you can be sure that either the NDP or the Bloc or both would have caved out of fear of an election.

      So we get bad governance as a result. Call me so ticked off with all of Ottawa.

      • sbt

        "Harper is circumventing Parliament and damaging the country and democracy knowing he can get away with it."

        Parliament approved the changes, Ted. Either something is worth fighting over or it's not. Apparently the Liberals didn't think this was. A choice they made. Not Harper, not the NDP, and not the Bloc. Quit trying to make it out like everyone failed democracy when it was arguably only the Liberals. And I say arguably because many Liberal supporters likely support (or are at least ambivalent to) the changes that were made in this omnibus bill. If they were overwhelmingly opposed, then the Liberals would have voted it down. Democracy isn't that complicated.

        • http://intensedebate.com/people/tedbetts tedbetts

          Circumventing is probably the wrong word. Abusing process and the weakness of the opposition.

          But it was not Ignatieff who chose to put this dogs breakfast of a bill together. It was Harper who decided we don't need to vet some very non-budget items that are very significant changes. It was Iggy's decision to let him do that.

          There are problems in this bill. Problems that have been identified. Problems that will arise because these changes were not properly vetted through the normal committee work that would be undertaken had they gone through proper channels. Canadians will suffer for Harper's decisions. And we will suffer for having a weak opposition.

          Harper is the PM though and so he should be judged as PM and is he providing good governance. The obvious answer is no and most Canadians and an increasing number of Canadians agree.

          Iggy should be judged as opposition leader and is he providing good opposition. The obvious answer is no and most Canadians and an increasing number of Canadians agree.

          • sbt

            I am sympatethic to what you are saying about process but am also sympathetic to the need to get legislation through a minortiy parliament that people will largely agree on (although there probably is some stuff in that bill Liberals surely don't like) but would result in gridlock for the sake of politics.

          • http://intensedebate.com/people/tedbetts tedbetts

            At least three of the items covered by this "budget implementation bill" were introduced several times before as stand alone bills and were defeated. This dogs breakfast gambit was designed to circumvent individual bill approval and individual bill scrutiny of its contents. Politics over policy again.

            I am thoroughly disgusted with both Conservatives and Liberals on this, but obviously moreso the government because they are the government.

          • sbt

            "I am thoroughly disgusted with both Conservatives and Liberals on this, but obviously moreso the government because they are the government."

            I honestly don't see why. Presumably the Conservatives supported this legislation when they were stand-alone bills and still support it now as an ominbus bill. It may be sneaky ramming it through as an omnibus bill but at least they are being consistent in their support of the legislation. All they're doing now is using the advantages they have in terms of political position versus the Liberals to advance their agenda. You describe this as politics versus policy but it's really just politics. If you disagree with the legislation, then you should be more upset at the people who claim to be opposed to it but didn't oppose it because they could have stopped it.

          • http://intensedebate.com/people/tedbetts tedbetts

            1. They are the government and it was their decision to combine these items into this omnibus bill after failing to get them through on their own.

            2. By combining it with this dogs breakfast, they chose to play the brinkmanship game. The budget includes a number of important spending bills that need to get through. It is manifest bad governance to piggyback off of needed legislation that would get held up if this was voted down. And of course voting it down would cause an election. Over procedure.

            3. The bills, by being rammed inappropriately into the omnibus bill and rushed through the House, do not get properly vetted by experts in committee or explained to the public. Errors result. The damage caused to those affected by the bills not worked out. Bad governance. Whenever this government has rushed bills through for political reasons in the past, the result has been a mess and Canadians suffer.

          • http://intensedebate.com/people/tedbetts tedbetts

            [cont]

            4. The bills themselves are not supported by Parliament or Canadians and it was cowardly and undemocratic of the Conservatives.

            So no. I am not more upset with those who didn't oppose it. I am more frustrated with the government – any government – that so crassly puts its own interests ahead of our interests. They set the agenda; the opposition reacts to it; we always end up suffering.

          • sbt

            " I am more frustrated with the government – any government – that so crassly puts its own interests ahead of our interests."

            Yet, they all do.

          • http://intensedebate.com/people/tedbetts tedbetts

            Gead I hate that answer. "That's just the way it is so you little citizens should just take your lumps quietly and not ask for "more please, sir". You'll get what we think is good for you."

            Such a healthy view of how democracy is supposed to work.

          • sbt

            Hey, don't blame me for stating the obvious. But the citizens on the whole do have the power to stop the government if enough of them think that the governments interests don't match theirs.

          • http://intensedebate.com/people/tedbetts tedbetts

            Unless the government prorogues yet again or the opposition caves in the face of a confidence vote.

          • sbt

            1 – Yes, it's a brinkmanship game but can you really blame a political party for advancing their interests. That's why they exist. If anything, you should be arguing for laws to end this behaviour not saying that a political party (that you just happen to disagree with) shouldn't use every power it has to advance it's agenda.

            2 – Elections are the price of democracy. It may hve been the dumbest election trigger ever but if the Conservatives were prepared to go the polls over it and the Liberals weren't then the Conservatives get their way. That's politics.

            3 – The bills have been vetted in committee as stand-alone bills before they were voted down, no? So this examination has happened to some extent so I think the whole error thing is overblown. This was a disagreement on the policy not the mechanics of the policy. The Conservatives wanted it more so they get their way.

          • http://intensedebate.com/people/tedbetts tedbetts

            1. Of course I can blame them. The moment we throw up our hands and say "nature of the beast" is the moment we give up on government and of ever getting good government. We citizens are entitled to good governance and good government. (It's also self-defeating: I truly believe if Harper had not been so always bent on partisan advantage, Canadians would trust him a heck of a lot more and would have given him a majority long long ago.)

            2. I don't buy the excuse that it is "just politics". See response above.

            3. I don't know whether they were examined or not; do you? I certainly don't know what has changed in those bills since then or whether they are exactly the same. I also know that some of those bills are brand new.

            It is bad governance, plain and simple. A bad way to draft laws and run a government. That is first and foremost a problem created by the government to serve its own end and not us. That the opposition let it happen makes them guilty of and blameworthy for support but not of cause.

          • http://intensedebate.com/people/tedbetts tedbetts

            Oh, forgot:

            5. By putting so much in an unprecedentedly large omnibus bill and setting such a short time period to review it, the government ensured that MPs would not have enough time to properly read through and understand all of the issues. It is abusing a "budget implementation" bill to make wholesale changes to many different areas of complex legislation and administration.

            It is, quite plainly, a very bad way to make laws.

        • http://intensedebate.com/people/LynnTO LynnTO

          Democracy isn't that complicated.

          You're absolutely right. In a democracy, leaders debate individual pieces of legilsation on their merits and don't call each other supporters of the Taliban or baby-killers if they disagree with one another. In a democracy, you don't prorogue Parliament when you don't like the way they vote. In a democracy, you recognize that you must govern by the will of the whole people, not just a strongly-oriented base. In a democracy, you don't make arbitrary (and illogical) decisions and then fail to reverse them when just about every reputable agency steps forward to call you on it.

          Democracy really is simple. And right now, she's getting the stuffing kicked out of her by a bunch of people who don't care enough to stand up for her.

          • AT1

            Ordinarily, in a democracy, one also expects that the key opposition member involved in lengthy discussions regarding a sensitive bill (ie immigration & refugee legislation) isn't suddenly forced to vote against his own proposals because his boss can't conjure up a spine to stand up to a couple of his own MPs.

            Seriously, after that episode, why would anyone bother with Liberal criticisms of legislation? They won't vote for things that they actually support.

          • sbt

            Only one of your examples actually mentions the people. The other examples you give are just things you wish would happen in our democracy. I agree it would be nice if our leaders didn't call each other names but I don't think it's fundamental to a democracy. It would also be nice if our leaders listened to experts on each and every decision before they make decisions and can defend them intellectually when they disagree with the experts. But is that really what the people want all the time? I'd cite the HST, the green shift, and Ontario's eco-fee as examples of when the people couldn't care less what the experts think. You want to guess who counts more in a democracy? Certainly not the experts.

          • sbt

            I'd also argue it's pretty clear the Conservatives have governed according to the will of the people (or at least are the people's choice to govern them). After four and a half years they're still the government. The polls haven't shown any real desire to get rid of them and the opposition gambit to turf them out by forming an everyone but them coalition was met with outrage by the people (something like 60% opposed to the coalition, IIRC). So, how about we stop pretending that the Conservative Party represents the narrow interests of 35% of the population who have diametrically opposed views to the other 65% (who would apparently all get along just peachy if one of those parties were governing and not the Conservatives).

          • http://intensedebate.com/people/LynnTO LynnTO

            “When a government starts trying to cancel dissent or avoid dissent is frankly when it is rapidly losing its moral authority to govern.”

            When you call someone a supporter of the Taliban in order to intimidate them into shutting up and stop opposing your bill, when you prorogue Parliament in order to avoid answering tough questions, you are circumventing the principle of democratic accountability set out in our constitution of peace, order, and good government.

            Furthermore, your selective use of polling leaves me smh. Canadians were also broadly opposed to prorogation, as I recall. And, I'm not claiming that the 65% of the population that either didn't vote Conservative or didn't vote at all holds views diametrically opposed to those of the Conservatives. I'm claiming that in many cases, the Census, the Gun Registry, and the "no debate" on Abortion, to name a few, the Conservatives are governing according to their base, not the needs of the country as a whole.

            In a democracy, governance is conducted by the will of the people, not the quid tacit consentit of the people.

          • sbt

            "Furthermore, your selective use of polling leaves me smh. Canadians were also broadly opposed to prorogation, as I recall."

            The only difference is that prorogation wasn't an issue that affected who was going to be governing the country. The people can think what they want on any particular issue. We choose people to represent us and render a verdict on their performance at the next election. My point was that when it came time to choose Conservative or coalition the polls overwhelmingly said the people chose Conservative.

            "the Conservatives are governing according to their base, not the needs of the country as a whole."

            That's true of every government.

          • http://intensedebate.com/people/tedbetts tedbetts

            They do not come anywhere near governing according to the will of the people.

            1. Only 20% of eligible voters voted for them in the last election.

            2. Fewer Canadians voted for them in 2008 than in 2006.

            3. Of those who voted, they only got 36% of the vote.

  • Emily

    Gosh, now we're just like the US.

    Omnibus bills…and we know how well it works down there, right?

    Pork, earmarks, backroom deals and special interest and often contradictory legislation.

    • http://intensedebate.com/people/Stewart_Smith Stewart_Smith

      Actually, we are just like Ontario in the late 90's… go figure.

      • Emily

        You mean with that other American, Mike Harris?

        • Orson Bean

          Oh yeah, I forgot that left-wing talking point: if you're a conservative in Canada, you're unpatriotic. Actually you're not even Canadian.

          • Emily

            The left-wing doesn't have any talking points, they're all over the map.

            Mike Harris wasn't a conservative, Ontario has always like conservatives. Harris was Reform in sheep's clothing.

          • http://intensedebate.com/people/Stewart_Smith Stewart_Smith

            No, Orson… that is not the point. Whether you are conservative or not is immaterial. (Actually I am fairly conservative on many issues, yet quite democratic as hell)

            The point is, if you bastardize the democratic process then you are not patriotic. Omnibus bills make some sense if there is a large area of highly integrated legislation that needs to be coherent. However, when disjointed components are lumped together it greatly diminishes the ability of the legislature to do their job. This isn't just the opposition benches, it makes friendly contributions from backbenchers virtually impossible. Moreover, since omnibus bills are frequently motivated by partisan political motives they have a track record of being poorly constructed. Parts are unworkable, parts are illegal, parts are incompatible with existing legislation. Fixing the unintended consequences are hell, because it is all tied together and pushed forward in a partisan fashion.

            Finally, by their nature, omnibus bills tend to make government big, complicated and inefficient. Is bigger, badder government what a true conservative such as yourself wants?

          • AT1

            And yet, the Liberals were afraid to make that simple argument during an election campaign.

          • http://intensedebate.com/people/lgarvin lgarvin

            You're missing his point. Calling people "Americans" because you dislike their politics is an offensive display of bigotry. Your points about omnibus bills are quite valid.

          • Orson Bean

            Stewart, I wasn't referring in any way to omnibus bills. I am quite receptive to the arguments as to why they're a bad idea. I was only reacting to Emily's reference to Mike Harris as an "American". It is indeed a standard Liberal and left-wing talking point, I find it deeply offensive, and I'm not even particularly conservative. On social issues, I'm about as liberal as it's possible to be. If I lived in the US, I'd probably be a liberal Democrat.

            It's just as wrong, offensive and slimy as when Republicans in the US try to paint Democrats as unpatriotic and un-American.

          • http://intensedebate.com/people/Stewart_Smith Stewart_Smith

            Sorry I missed that. I rather like Americans, Mike Harris not so much so I guess would have taken Emily's comment a different way.

          • http://intensedebate.com/people/lgarvin lgarvin

            I'm not surprised that Emily would say something that idiotic and bigotted – I know her, after all – but I am surprised that at least a couple of people thought it was actually intelligent.

            Mike Harris has been out of office for 8 years, but he can still inspire 2 minutes of hate among some folks.

          • Emily

            Well, I don't know you, but I'm not surprised you're using the 'hate' meme.

            Ontario is still living with the results of Harris's mismanagement. Some members of his govt even went on to wreck the fed govt.

            No more Reformers disguised as PCs, thank you.

          • http://intensedebate.com/people/lgarvin lgarvin

            Well, I don't know you

            Of course you do.

            I'm not going to argue with you about Mike Harris, I'm just pointing out that your bigotted slurs about who is – and who is not – a Canadian, are offensive to reasonable people who prefer discussion to ignorant ranting.

          • Emily

            No, I'm afraid I don't. Nor do I wish to.

            But since Cons have frequently labelled people who disagree with them as unCanadian, Taliban-lovers, traitors, troop-haters, not 'real' Canadians and the like, your point is DOA.

            Plus Harper said:

            The Reform party is very much a modern manifestation of the Republican movement in Western Canada; the U.S. Republicans started in the western United States.
            http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Stephen_Harper

  • http://intensedebate.com/people/amherstvw amherstvw

    Haroon Siddiqui today:

    Tony Clement, the minister in charge of Statistics Canada, said: “I don’t accept that every time you make a change on every matter of government business, you have to shout it from every rooftop.”

    Ain't it the truth … just Twitter incessant inanity.
    Policy should be based on feelings, hunches, prejudices … shhh.
    Incrementalism at work.

    • Emily

      Is Clement aware this is supposed to be a democracy?

      Shouting it from the rooftops is kind of a necessity.

    • http://intensedebate.com/people/Thwim Thwim

      I do hope the people in Mr. Clement's riding will take note of this.. Tony Clement does not think it's important that you know what your tax dollars are going toward.

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