Beyond The Commons

Aaron Wherry covers all the goings-on in and around Parliament Hill. Follow Aaron on Twitter: @aaronwherry

Categories: Beyond The Commons, Capital Read

'Greater social goods are at stake'

by Aaron Wherry on Friday, July 23, 2010 12:36pm - 0 Comments

Archdeacons Michael Pollesel and John M. Robertson wrote to Industry Minister Tony Clement earlier this week on behalf of the Anglican Church of Canada. Here is their letter.

As you are well aware, a great deal of the charitable work carried out in this country is done in support of the sick, the poor, the marginalized, and on behalf of the hundreds of thousands of men, women and children who are in dire need of a loving human response on a daily basis.

In spiritual terms this loving human response comes by the Grace of God, but in practical terms it is emboldened and upheld by reliable information and sound methodologies that are pillars of our social infrastructure. The Anglican Church of Canada recognizes the power our country’s statistical information has to help transform thought into action in profound and life giving ways. Indeed to potentially compromise the integrity of a system – one that is recognized as global leader – without a broad consultation with other levels of government, nonprofits and the private sector seems unnecessarily risky, particularly when greater social goods are at stake.

Tags: Anglican Church, Anglican Church of Canada, census, Statistics Canada, Tony Clement

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http://intensedebate.com/people/Stewart_Smith Stewart_Smith

Ok so it is fairly clear that God is on side with a mandatory census. Which raises a question.

Question: Who is on the other side?

http://intensedebate.com/people/Stewart_Smith Stewart_Smith

Answer: Stephen Harper.

Does anyone recognize that odour?

Emily

LOL okay, I nearly fell off my chair on that one.
http://intensedebate.com/people/ZestyMordant ZestyMordant

It's more likely that Harper is a Sith lord.

Eliminating the mandatory census means we won't know how many Jedi he assassinates or turns to the dark side.

CAPS

Since it is from the Archdeacon of the Anglican Church of Canada the for the So-Con/Conservatives it is not the right God.

The only thing that would be even lamer for them would be if the United Church came out against this … oh wait, http://www2.macleans.ca/2010/07/22/one-more-for-t….

Emily

Yes, I can't imagine a SoCon being a member of either church. Not their 'cup of tea' so to speak.

http://intensedebate.com/people/Geiseric Geiseric

It was a mandatory census that put Bethlehem on the map.

Emily

Good point!
Amateur Hour

You get a star and a smiley face for that one!
wsam

The Romans wanted to know how many bedrooms that little trollop Mary "God made me pregnant", had.

http://intensedebate.com/people/Douglass Douglass

Well said. If this whole thing was to placate his base, I don't see how so many of Canada's churches coming out against the changes helps that goal.
Gaunilon

I'd have to say, this (and the prior thread on similar clerical statements) is the first time I've ever seen commenters here not react with outrage and ridicule to a Christian religious authority weighing in on a political question. I mean, just imagine how clearly it would illustrate the erosion of the separation between Church and State if these clerics were weighing in on Harper's side.

The term of art used on right-wing blogs for this sort of phenomenon is "strange new respect", for everyone here who has never ventured outside the left-o-sphere.

http://intensedebate.com/people/Scott_Tribe Scott_Tribe

As an aside, It's amusing to me to see the Fellowship of Christian Evangelicals and the Canadian Jewish Congress come out against this – because those are representatives of voter blocs that Harper actively courts for votes.
http://intensedebate.com/people/Stewart_Smith Stewart_Smith

If you note, even with the Grace of God line they did not present their view as either the Lord's ( I did however) or as coming from a higher moral authority.

The basis of their argument was, we do good work, we make use of the census data to do that good work, you are proposing to screw up a world class system, please don't.

If they had argued that Clement was doing something immoral and would burn in hell for his actions, the response you seem to be looking for would have followed.
http://intensedebate.com/people/doug_rogers doug_rogers

If they're organized, they must be communists, therefore they don't count.
Mike T.

On the other hand, churches most often gain attention for their views on their more noxious positions. Obviously it's more than just gay hate and anti-abortion demonstrations, but still…
wsam

I have to say it is entirely unsurprising to see Gaunilon focus on what he perceives as more Liberal failings, rather than the Conservative idiocy at this issues root.
Emily

No one here gave 'a Christian religious authority' a pass, or praise…they simply pointed out that SoCons aren't likely to be members of either of these churches.
http://intensedebate.com/people/YYZ YYZ

My read, Gaunilon, is EVEN the church (whose opinion we normally don't care about) has a problem with this.

Your point is valid of course.

http://intensedebate.com/people/Scott_Tribe Scott_Tribe

churches – not church. The Christian religion is not 1 big monolith.

http://intensedebate.com/people/YYZ YYZ

Nor is the media, the government, the left, the right, the working class, the elite etc. etc. etc.

I make that point to agree with you. I shall endeavour to be more careful with language going forward.

http://intensedebate.com/people/BGLong BGLong

This is all to the good and I eagerly await the flood of public of public/organizational indignation when
the feeble efforts at affirmative action are eradicated. Surely should rank right up there with the outrage
at interference with pay equity. Yes ?

wsam

As a white male I find affirmative action ridiculous and unnecessary.

Emily

Of course you do.

wsam

Hurumph!!!

Emily

LOL okay, I mistook your meaning. Muy bad!
wsam

Double harrumph!!!

Also: Scottish Canadians are the best and all other civilizational groupings are total crap. Everyone should have to admit it, or study it in school, or swear an oath to Scottish-Canadianess.

Screw multiculturalism.

Scottish people built this country despite being totally discriminated against by the Irish (who are our traditionally enemy right after the English, the Germans, Yorkshiremen, Mark Steyn, Estonians, left-handed Haitian Opera singers, Italians and Old Etonians). How many Scottish Canadians have managed to get into positions of power in this country? Not enough!!!! Barely any, in fact (If you take barely to mean a lot). Maybe 14 Prime Ministers, a few thousand MPs, every business person active before 1978 (excluding the province of Quebec where the number is half), a couple hundred TV presenters. Basically nothing.

Considering how much we have done for this country and stuff, etc … that makes us under-represented.

I won't rest until every seat in Parliament is held by a Scottish Canadian!!
http://intensedebate.com/people/Halo_Override Halo_Override

[X] I find your views intriguing and would like to receive your newsletter.
http://intensedebate.com/people/BGLong BGLong

Unfortunately it seems to be written on rocks in a variant form of Pictish.
http://intensedebate.com/people/Halo_Override Halo_Override

S'okay, there's Google Translate.

Trass

Over here! look! a distraction!

http://intensedebate.com/people/BGLong BGLong

Not really. Just another item to check off from the same list.

Anon 001

Archdeacons Michael Pollesel and John M. Robertson

Damn these bleeding heart liberal elites!
Trass

Freakin' special interests
http://intensedebate.com/people/amherstvw amherstvw

These gentlemen are from the older "elite" style churches which help the poor.

Modern churchgoers all know that God wants them to be rich and prosperous.
If the poor are poor, they must have bad habits and must hate God … it's their own fault !

So if elite churches want to "play socialist" then I think the new calculation would be that they can pay for their own surveys.
There is no need for taxpayers who play by the rules, pay their taxes [I forget the rest] … to pay for elite church activities.

(Having written that as angry sarcasm … I still feel really dirty for thinking it long enough to write it. We can all understand this government … just eliminate everything that makes you human. React more like a reptile)
http://intensedebate.com/people/WDM WDM

It seems odd to me that God would hate the troops.

Mike T.

Who will they praise now when they pass the ammunition?

wsam

It's a trick. God hates statisticians. Who hate the troops. So God pretends to hate the troops so the statisticians relax and then he smites them, for hating the troops. Simple, really.
http://intensedebate.com/people/Halo_Override Halo_Override

Peter MacKay.

Philanthropist

The 'greater social good' crowd is being marginalized by economic prosperity and this is another cynical attempt at fighting back to protect their own economic and righteous self-interest. These people want government to be involved with every aspect of people's lives so that they can exert greater control over others and get paid for it, screw them.

Emily

You have mistaken us for some other country methinks.

Ariadne

You are just naive.

wsam

Why do you hate the troops?
http://intensedebate.com/people/DerekPearce DerekPearce

Philanthropist, you're so misanthropic.
lenny

If you want to advocate for less social good, at least have the guts to do it in the face of the data. For example:
"Oh look, literacy rates in Medicine Hat are the lowest in the country and dropping. Oh well, who cares."

http://intensedebate.com/people/Halo_Override Halo_Override

That would be tremendously refreshing.

Jan

Is Conrad Black gracing the blog? For a guy with no cash flow you certainly are keeping your edge.

Ariadne

It is so funny reading pretend libertarians force government to hold a gun against their head to fill out a form. When the said government refuses to hold such gun, they call such government "evil" with sulfuric smell to boot. Amazing Canadian Logic. Only in Canada eh! In Europe they are actually eradicating census, as it is unnecessary – for such data are already available through many government agencies. What they are working on is consolidating those datas to be made available for the stats agency to work on. But then Canada always logs behind in innovation, I wonder why that is? Is it due to people who cling on the old ways before computer was invented, or they just can't think outside the box without being threatened, or they just believe that computers are just made for blogging? And for US, do you know that they shorten their mandatory census also? Now, who really is the true ideologue?

Charles H.

"such data are already available through many government agencies": However, in Canada such data is not available, since we do not have the same level of cradle-to-grave style government scrutiny and privacy laws prevent such sharing. (And imagine the hue and cry should such a system be suggested.)

"What they are working on is consolidating those datas to be made available for the stats agency to work on.": If such data was available, then I'd agree. However, even if it was it takes time to do so. (I'd tell you about a project I worked on that had started several years before I joined it, didn't hit anywhere near the level of integration that would be necessary for this suggestion, and which last I heard still wasn't completed. However, NDAs and security restrictions apply, so I'll just say that what you're suggesting is a particularly large undertaking that would likely take years to properly design, let alone implement.)

"Is it due to people who cling on the old ways before computer was invented" 1946? (Before anyone argues dates: yes, other computers existed prior to that. I'm using the first general purpose digital computer as the date, as opposed to analog computers or digital ones that could only perform a specific task.) You do, of course, realize that the census can be filled out online? It's not nearly an agency as resistant to change as you suggest.

"And for US, do you know that they shorten their mandatory census also?" It's been discussed in the context of "If you don't think the government needs to ask these questions, why not drop them instead of scrapping the entire mandatory long form? There is a process for doing just that."

Blacktop

When I did a study in 1973 I found that most European countries (and Israel ) had what is termed a "Central Registry". Even then every move of a household, hydro, change of job etc etc had to have a permit which reported the incident to the Registry. In fact, the City of Bologna, Italy had a very complete system of its own (but then it was a communist govt)

If a study, say a social study, was to be done, the registry was combed for a random sample and then the appropriate health, motor vehicle, or whatever files were searched for the data. It was almost real time then; imagine what the improvements to search methods and computer memory and ppower could do now. Our civil libertarians would fill a bucket of kittens.
This sort of thing was the greatest deterrent to having a unique number for health purposes, that it would be used for things never dreamed of by other agencies. Actually this fear was misplaced as it was already being done by matching variant data such as name, initials, address by Dr Howard Newecombe at AECL where it was used researching fallout data and the effect on nursing mothers as well as milk from dairy cattle. Even then the match rate was 100,000 records a second.
People who worry aboy the privacy of census data should understand there is NO SUCH THING as privacy anymore.

So the long form should remain mandatory for the sole reason that it is cheaper and more positive than the other approach.

I understand cross-file matching is done all the time now both in the commercial world (subscription offers) as well as surreptiously in certain governments.

Alberta passed legislation/regulations that data gathered for one purpose (say health) coould not be used by other jurisdictions. Fat lot that does if the data is stored outside of Canada where anything goes, despite contract protection. It's old hat.

I guess the churches don't have computers.
Blacktop

Just saw Minister Day on CBC being interviewed. He says long form will not be mandatory saying that immigrants are suspicious of such info requests. Ha! They should be very familiar with them I wouldl think. After all we don't pull out fingernails as do some jurisdictions to get "data."

http://intensedebate.com/people/Halo_Override Halo_Override

Nah, we're first-world, we outsource that stuff.

frobisher

Cheaper, really. We should all applaud the efficiency. Oh, the accountability, too.

http://intensedebate.com/people/Halo_Override Halo_Override

Glad we dodged the unions on that one.

Brad Sallows

Maybe the churches could try community outreach in their communities.

Either the slightly lower confidence levels of data obtained via the voluntary forms is going to prevent all the whinging organizations from carrying out their functions, or it is not. If it is not, their beefing is just so much tiresome noise.

We don't need ironclad long form data to see the Kashechewans and other obvious problems of Canada. Has anything been done about such problems? No? Then stop whining about trivial changes in data quality and get on with solving real problems. Once those are solved, we can look into whether the quality of data is preventing us from seeing the next problems that should be in the queue.