Beyond The Commons

Aaron Wherry covers all the goings-on in and around Parliament Hill. Follow Aaron on Twitter: @aaronwherry

Categories: Beyond The Commons, Capital Read

Stockwell Day, amateur statistician

by Aaron Wherry on Saturday, July 24, 2010 10:10am - 0 Comments

The President of the Treasury Board seems to indicate the census could just as easily be outsourced to 12-year-olds with Internet connections.

“We live in an information age where any 12-year-old kid can push any button on the Internet and find out any information he or she wants without threatening a citizen that they’re going to go to jail.”

Tags: census, Statistics Canada, Stockwell Day

More by Aaron Wherry

Andrew (not P or C)

Canadian Census, Facebook Edition.

These people are clowns.

http://intensedebate.com/people/Harbles Harbles

More Like Canadian Census Facepalm Edition.
"The Harper Government" tm Spending your taxes more and getting less!

Shiner

Silly statscan! Don't they know you can find everything on wikipedia?
http://intensedebate.com/people/Scott_Tribe Scott_Tribe

I told our Conservative parroters to wait before they started crowing about that 1 Ipso-Reid poll.

And now, we have a new poll out today from Angus-Reid that shows Canadians support keeping the mandatory longform census by a margin of 2-1… and 60% of Canadians think it yields very important data for formulating public policy.

Standing By

Actually, the unreported parts of the earlier poll also pointed to trouble for Harper.

This is from the Postmedia blog…

There are some other results from the poll that I think are interesting, but there wasn’t room for them in the story.

Exactly half of Canadians agree that the long-form census is “intrusive,” with 18 per cent strongly agreeing and 32 per cent somewhat in agreement, while 21 per cent of Canadians “strongly” disagree that it’s intrusive and 29 per cent somewhat disagree.

That said, most people (68 per cent) believe the intrusion is reasonable, and a slight majority (56 per cent) disagrees that “the government has no right to ask me personal questions about my family.” Almost nine in 10 Canadians (88 per cent) agree that “as a country, we should try to know as much as we can about ourselves” and three-quarters (77 per cent) also agree that “as a Canadian, it is my civic duty to complete the census with whatever questions are asked of me.”

&lt http://communities.canada.com/shareit/blogs/politics/archive/2010/07/21/deleted-scenes-from-the-census-poll-story.aspx>” target=”_blank”>;http://communities.canada.com/shareit/blogs/politics/archive/2010/07/21/deleted-scenes-from-the-census-poll-story.aspx>

So they think it's intrusive, but that everyone has a responsibility to provide information.

I now think Harper is in some political trouble on this matter. It looks to me like one of those issues where the more people know, the worse it is for the government.

(Y'know, as an aside, sometimes I despair about my fellow Canadians, but I'm always pleased when I see how hard it can be to give them crap and call it honey. This looks like such an occasion.)

http://intensedebate.com/people/danby danby

Filling it out can be perceived as a civic duty

http://intensedebate.com/people/Sir_Francis Sir_Francis

The President of the Treasury Board seems to indicate the census could just as easily be outsourced to 12-year-olds with Internet connections.

Is Mr. Day nominating himself?

wilson

Maybe that's a hint of where the govt may go on this..?

http://intensedebate.com/people/Sir_Francis Sir_Francis

Perhaps. And, in order to fully exploit the labour efficiencies offered by NAFTA, the census would have to be outsourced to Mexican 12-year-olds, I should think…

wilson

'52 per cent of Canadians think the government should reverse its decision and keep the mandatory long form census'

That is the only number that matters from that poll, because the survey is not being eliminated, it is changing to voluntary.
So Canadians opinions on intrusive, not intrusive are included and concluded in that 52%.

The media and elites have had full reign on the story, declaring it a crisis,
yet only 1/2 of Canadians agree with them.
Tuesday the government gets their story out.

http://intensedebate.com/people/Scott_Tribe Scott_Tribe

Um.. nice attempt at spin, but read the other number, wilson. Only 27% support the government keeping to its decision to make it voluntary. That's a margin of nearly 2-1 Canadians wanting the government to reverse this dumb decision.

wilson

52 want the decison reversed, all others polled are on the agree/don't care side.
52 is the only number that matters.

The media frenzy has only stirred half of Canadians.
And the rest of the story comes out on Tuesday.

And I would bet a good chunk of that 52% is more about Harper hating than stats collecting.
s_c_f

Correction: almost half of respondents (47%) oppose the federal government’s decision to scrap the mandatory long form census, while 38 per cent support it. 14% are unsure.

The 27% number is for a misleading question which basically asks them if they should reverse the decision because some premiers and statisticians wish to reverse the decision.

It doesn't ask them if the decision should be reversed directly. It gives respondents a lead-in to push them in one direction..

wilson

'Some Premiers'….Ontario and Manitoba, unless someone can find others who are against the change, these are the only two I could find.

Note too, the G&M reported (repeated by many as ALL the provinces against the change) http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/politics/prov…

http://intensedebate.com/people/Halo_Override Halo_Override

I was also guilty of that — I referred a couple of days ago to an article from which I inferred an official No from every province but Alberta, and I've since read more accurate and detailed summaries which has corrected my outlook.

(wilson, this is called admitting error. If you find the idea perplexing you might want to google it.)

http://intensedebate.com/people/Scott_Tribe Scott_Tribe

The federal government has argued that the long form census is intrusive and Canadians should not be forced to answer it. Only one-in-four Canadians (24%) agree with this assessment, while a large majority (58%) think the long form census yields data that is important to make policy decisions in all areas of public service, and should remain mandatory.

No matter how you spin it.. there's not a lot of good news for the Tea Party Conservatives in this poll.

Standing By

Moe bad news, wilson. Are you seated?

While respondents who voted for the Conservatives are more likely to side with the government’s argument that the long form census is intrusive (31%, compared to 19% for both Liberal and NDP voters), a majority of Tory supporters (53%) believe that the long form census yields data that is important to make policy decisions in all areas of public service, and should remain mandatory.
http://www.visioncritical.com/2010/07/canadians-b…

If they made the survey voluntary, and limited participation to American right-wing bloggers and tea party supporters, then I think Harper could conceivably get majority support on this. Maybe.

wilson

Why is that moe bad news SB?
It just puts in dispute everthing the media/elites/Harper haters have been spewing about the government throwing a bone to supporters. And that all Cons are hillbillies, stupid, ideological, far right bible thumpers….
You lose.

Many Blogging Tories are against the change.
Combined 38% of coalition LibDippers side with the government (hillbillies, stupid…).

Steve

So you don't particularly care about the issue either way, only its implications for party spin?

wilson

Perhaps if my census collector had not shown my partially filled out long form census to my neighbor,
I would be on the 'what ever, don't care' side.

But she did, and I do care.
http://intensedebate.com/people/c_9 c_9

That's terrible, and in fact illegal, behaviour. Was this reported to StatsCan? Did you then hear from StatsCan about it? StatsCan has an incredibly strong record on privacy, despite the rantings of current cabinet ministers, so if this had been reported I believe there should have been strong consequences.
http://scottdiatribe.canflag.com/ Scott_Tribe

Probably like Maxime Bernier, Ms. WIlson has erased her letter of complaint about this (if she ever did) We only have her word on this to go by.,, but you're right, if she saw that, she should have reported it.
http://intensedebate.com/people/s_c_f s_c_f

It's a little bit too late at that point.
http://intensedebate.com/people/c_9 c_9

Yes, the privacy violation has happened. But much like every other criminal code violation, we try to punish the guilty and improve the system so that the crime is less likely to recur, yes? So therefore, why would you ignore something that (judging by the comment she made) was troubling to you and was illegal?
danby

To be honest, that would annoy the hell out of me as well.
http://intensedebate.com/people/c_9 c_9

100% with you there.

Andrew (not P or C)

Math Fail. 19% of Liberal and NDP supporters = 19% of Liberal+NDP supporters, not 38%.

Nice try, Wayne.

http://intensedebate.com/people/Jenn_ Jenn_

The Conservatives dumbing down our population depresses me greatly.

But I take heart that a great many of the Conservative supporters are angry white men, who will die off soon as not. And the kids coming up behind them are mostly going on to post-secondary education–ergo, are the elites you so complain about.

wilson

LOL, from the 'they are stupid, we are smart' camp, better know as 'progressives'.

http://intensedebate.com/people/Jenn_ Jenn_

That's just the thing, Wilson. I am not a 'camp' I am an individual. An individual who, while never having gone to university, is at least smart enough to realize that going to university doesn't make you stupider!

wilson

''a great many of the Conservative supporters are angry white men, who will die off soon as not''
and who is dumbing down the debate?

Conservative's kids don't go to university because their parents think it makes them stupider?
Liberal voters are individuals whereas Conservative voters are borg?
http://intensedebate.com/people/Jenn_ Jenn_

Are you telling me a great many of the Conservative supporters are NOT angry white men? You will note, of course, I didn't say 'all' or 'most' or anything like that.

But you did discover a good wrinkle in that use of generalities so many Conservatives like to use, and read into others' comments, apparently. When it becomes as black and white as "us" against "them" even if "us" do something ridiculed when 'them' do it, 'us' still gets to be 'us'. Stepping back a bit, one might conclude that is hypocritical. But 'us' never steps back. The other unfortunate thing for Conservatives is that, many of the now-university-trained kids seem to think they get to use their mind by themselves. They might, for an example, step back and look at the whole 'us' versus 'them' thing.

I did enjoy the borg bit, by the way.
wilson

I think Conservative and Liberal supporters should be able to have a conversation or debate, in what should be a neutral environment, without the insults and generalizations.

I take my civic duties seriously, I do not cheat on my taxes, and I fill out government forms with honest and accurate information.
If my concerns are disregarded, one has to seriously consider the Church of the Jedi Knights, because the mandatory long form seems to carry no penalty, if you simply fill in the blanks.
Jenn_

I take my civic duties seriously, I do not cheat on my taxes, and I fill out government forms with honest and accurate information.

As do I, Wilson, which is why I enjoy chatting with you. I am not disregarding your concerns one little bit, I'm even following along with some of your arguments and expressing where I become concerned. Of course, you ignore those posts.

But I have to tell you–I believe my son is a member of the Jedi religion, and while I am neither supportive or unsupportive in his choice, I am becoming increasingly alarmed at the number of people disrespecting that religious choice. You'll note I don't slag Stockwell Day for his choice, either (but I will admit that one is harder for me to keep my mouth shut about. Still, I try very hard to do so.)

Just because it is not a religion as you would like to define religion, where do you get the right to define religion for others?
Loraine Lamontagne

Tell that to Tony Clement and Stockwell Day.

Ministers who lie to Canadians about what questions are on the census, who misappropriate Trudeau's state out of the bedroom of the nation quote and who claim that 12 year-old could do the work of StatsCan by searching internet are not encouraging debate without insults and generalizations.

We are being misled by our government.
http://intensedebate.com/people/Gaunilon Gaunilon

"An individual who, while never having gone to university, is at least smart enough to realize that going to university doesn't make you stupider!"

"Stupider" is the wrong word, but I think it's fair to say that going to university can render one less able to understand reality.

Someone who knows nothing, and knows they know nothing, is better off than someone who knows nothing and yet thinks they know something. This has always been a problem for universities (hence the name "sophomore" which translates as "wise fool"), but it is infinitely worse now that many university faculties are more devoted to indoctrinating their students in a particular worldview than in teaching their students how to think critically while introducing them to a wide array of intelligent views and arguments.

If someone goes to university and receives little but indoctrination in feminism and Marxism, for example, one emerges thinking one is educated when in reality one has no inkling of how to analyze an argument, no understanding of the faults or weaknesses of feminism and Marxism, and no familiarity with the opposing arguments. Such students often even emerge thinking that any opposition to their favoured view must be motivated by either evil or utter stupidity – one sees the product of this intellectual poverty on these boards all the time.

So, in that sense, it is possible for university to make someone "stupider". I would surmise that it happens more often than not in the non-technical faculties across Canada.
From_Winnipeg

I had to respond to your assertion that Marxist writing discussed in universities is "little but indoctrination." I have not been to school since U of T in the 80's, but I was introduced to a lot of excellent work in the political economy and Marxist tradition, of which I have the impression is still read in courses today.

A lot of the best work I have read on the economics of suburban development, mortgages and debt comes from so-called 'Marxist' geographers. I can only recommend that you pick up a copy of James O'Connor's 'The Fiscal Crisis of the State'. For 1973 it is quite prophetic.
http://books.google.ca/books?id=onvnIE4WF0wC&…
Gaunilon

I didn't say that Marxist writing discussed in universities is "little but indoctrination". What I said is that IF someone receives little but indoctrination in feminism and Marxism, FOR EXAMPLE, one emerges thinking that one is educated when, in fact, one has only been indoctrinated.

I too have studied Marxism. It's an important topic and one no educated graduate should have missed. But it should be examined from all angles alongside other important ideologies, not treated as an infallible worldview. Being made into a Marxist (or Socialist, or Feminist, or anything else being pushed in Canadian Humanities departments) is not the same thing as having an education that includes Marxism, Feminism, and Socialism alongside the many other key ideologies that have played a role in our society.
From_Winnipeg

True. And after rereading your initial post I have to agree with you that a tendency for students to come away with an engrained confirmation bias it is often a case of departmental inertia or anxiety. A faculty and general area of scholarship can get so obsessed with defining itself and its worth.. students are basically taught how to cheat by knowing the answers before the question.

I am half-jokingly attempting to convince my son to enrol into both a Political Theory and a Physics program in order to prevent any kind of specialization in his undergraduate education whatsoever.
Gaunilon

I'd recommend straight Physics, with electives to cover Political Theory.

But even better is to find a school that offers a truly comprehensive education in critical thinking and the Great Books rather than a brainwashing, and then restart afterward in his field of choice.

Gaunilon

"But I take heart that a great many of the Conservative supporters are angry white men, who will die off soon as not. "

I have to say, I did not expect that comment from you Jenn_. A great many supporters of every major party in Canada are white men, and a great many of the supporters of every major party seem to be angry (regardless of colour or gender). There is nothing wrong with either phenomenon.

The part about taking heart that they'll die off soon is completely beneath you and disappointing.

http://intensedebate.com/people/Jenn_ Jenn_

I am sorry to disappoint, Gaunilon. I am in a mood today, obviously.

http://intensedebate.com/people/Gaunilon Gaunilon

Fair enough – we all have days like that. I am no exception.
Let's put it aside and forget the comment was made.

Jan

wilson, you think Clement in front of the committee is going to help? Please.

wilson

I don't know Jan.
But hearing the other side would be nice, no?

hollinm

I got to give you guys a lot of credit. Everyday Wherry finds some excuse to quote something said about the census and you guys jump on the band wagon spouting your negative views. Keep up the "good work". Myself I am tired of the whole thing and will not write on it beyond this. I am sure this will make a lot of you happy.

If you guys think that Canadians fill it in because its mandatory then you are living in a dream world. Canadians fill it in because they know a lot of the information is needed. So whether its voluntary or mandatory, accurate or not , the census information will be as useful as it ever has been.
No fines or jail time to anyone yet simply means the form is already voluntary other than in name only.

The government is not going to chance its position on this issue. How do I know? They let the chief statistican resign. So keep going with the vitriol and name calling. You are only talking to yourselves anyway.

http://intensedebate.com/people/Scott_Tribe Scott_Tribe

When even Tom Flanagan calls this a dumb move, you know they're on the wrong side of opinion.

http://intensedebate.com/people/s_c_f s_c_f

What a stupid thing to say.

http://scottdiatribe.canflag.com/ Scott_Tribe

Nothing stupid about it . When the chief mentor of Harper speaks out on the issue and criticizes the Conservative government, you know they're way out in right field with this:

Tom Flanagan, a former chief of staff to Harper who has a long history with the Reform, Canadian Alliance and Conservative parties, is among those puzzled by the government's motivation behind the census decision. "It's just never been an issue in the Conservative movement," he said in an interview. "It just literally comes out of nowhere as far as I can see."

Flanagan, a political scientist at the University of Calgary, said while some of the privacy concerns may be legitimate, the way the Conservatives have handled this is completely misguided. "I think it was an exercise in bad government to suddenly spring this on the public without any previous discussion, no consultation at all," he said. "You don't deal with the public that way in a democracy."

Tom is a right-wing Conservative, but he is not a Tea Party one.

wilson

Love how the 'progressives' are embracing Churches and Reformers!
Kinda takes the 'scary bible thumping ideologs' out of 'Conservative', eh Scott.
Jan

I would have thought Harper would have been trying to shore up his base and attract new support with this. Apparently not. As someone said this isn't so much about ideaology – its more like kids playing with firecrackers.
s_c_f

Whether or not it's 27% in favour of the government, 38% or 49%, depending on the poll and the question, you can be sure there are plenty of Conservatives, and plenty of people in general that are in favour. Picking one person out on the against side means nothing. I don't care if that person is Gandhi or Luke Skywalker. There are clearly reasonable arguments on both sides of the debate.
Jan

Anytime the no side want to bring forward reasonable arguments, feel free. Thos holding back isn't working for you.
http://intensedebate.com/people/Scott_Tribe Scott_Tribe

"The federal government has argued that the long form census is intrusive and Canadians should not be forced to answer it. Only one-in-four Canadians (24%) agree with this assessment, while a large majority (58%) think the long form census yields data that is important to make policy decisions in all areas of public service, and should remain mandatory."

Thats a sizable number
wilson

It would be more meaniful if the first question asked was
'have you filled out the mandatory long form census'
http://intensedebate.com/people/Halo_Override Halo_Override

Just like every time someone complains about the intrusiveness of the mandatory long-form, it would be meaningful if someone asked them "have you read any long from that Canada has produced in the last thirty years? Do you have any idea what's actually on it?"

Would have saved us a three-day bathroom-talking-point cycle, at any rate, and we could have moved on to the Jedi that much sooner.
http://intensedebate.com/people/Stewart_Smith Stewart_Smith

You might want to help Stock with one of those reasonable arguments.

http://intensedebate.com/people/Ottawa_Centrist Ottawa_Centrist

Tom who? I do not know of this Tom fellow.

Steve

The issue of the census being mandatory or voluntary has very little to do with either accuracy or compliance.

Rather. It is important for matters of distribution in order to achieve randomness. The best way to achieve randomness being to make the long form mandatory for all Canadians, and then having a random 20% fill it out.

Standing By

Is it just me, or have we yet to hear the PM say a word about this in public?

I ask because it is obvious that he is the one who made the decision here. Given how the Harper government works, the idea that Tony Clement would make this change on his own is laughable.

I wonder if Tony and anyone else prepared to run headfirst into the propeller of this particular policy plane (hello Stock!) are expecting some kind of payback for the reputational damage they have signed up for?

wilson

PM has not been heard from, yet.

Holly Stick

He's hiding out. He was afraid someone would ask him about the trampling of civil rights during the G20, and now he's even more afraid that someone will ask him about his stupid, ignoratnt decision to ditch the mandatory long form census and his even stupider refusal to back down. He's not playing chess, he's playing hide n' seek.

Loraine Lamontagne

There are claims the PM and his family are vacationing in the south of France.

wilson

How is it StatsCan is world class in data collection,
when the vast majority of SC surveys are VOLUNTARY???

Are all those surveys that are voluntary sourced, junk now?

colin

No, they would generally be weighted based on…. guess what…. I know you can complete the sentence yourself so I'm no even going to bother…

s_c_f

Nice try, but that doesn't make sense. You can't accurately weight a voluntary survey based on the results of another survey unless they are both asking the exact same question.

The only thing you can do is determine whether the sample you got was representative, but only in the categories previously measured by the mandatory survey. If the numbers are not representative in those categorie, skewing the numbers to get a more general number can be done. But that in no way, shape or form reduces the sampling bias caused by the voluntary nature of the survey.

s_c_f

For instance, you might notice your voluntary survey had a lower proportion of aboriginals. So you go to the census to get the correct proportion and weight the numbers. This might actually give you a less accurate number than the original voluntary survey. That is because the voluntary nature introduced a sampling bias amongst aboriginals, and there is no way of knowing if there is something fundamentally different between the ones you sampled and the ones you did not sample. If there is a fundamental difference, weighting the sampled numbers can give you a less accurate overall result. So you cannot eliminate sampling bias that way.
wilson

s-c-f
Reports of Natives consistently being under represented and 'emails' encouraging over representation of French speaking groups, and the new found religion of Jedi Knights,
how did the statisticians skew the numbers to produce reliable data from the 2006 census?

http://intensedebate.com/people/s_c_f s_c_f

Well, regardless of the fact that the data can be skewed no matter how mandatory it becomes, certainly the data has a minimal degree of reliability, and that level is certainly lower when it becomes voluntary.

I guess they do the best they can with what they've got.

Still, I'm not interested in making their jobs easier by answering mandatory questions.
http://intensedebate.com/people/Thwim Thwim

So don't. Take your fine or jail time, and engage in the purist form of civil disobedience. I'll applaud you even. I've nothing but admiration for people who stand up for what they believe their rights are when they're understanding and willing to take the consequences of doing so.

I may still think they're stupid, mind you, but I do applaud them for their courage of convictions.

Steve

For someone so dependent on poll numbers (aka a party hack), you sure as h*ll do not understand the processes behind them.

http://intensedebate.com/people/TJCook TJCook

Even by Day's standards, this is a remarkably stupid statement.
http://secondthots.blogspot.com Dennis_F

It's not what he said, Wherry. Boy, are some of you leftists going ape over this census.

I just watched a movie yesterday that might be very timely. It's called Question 7. It's about a pastor living in 1960-ish East Germany whose son is forced to complete a questionnaire in school handed out by the Communist party. Failure to do so would result in exclusion from the best schools and opportunities that the state has to offer.

It's like some of you want that for us! In Canada! On our streets! In our schools! (with apologies to writers of Liberal party campaign commercials)

http://intensedebate.com/people/NorthernPoV NorthernPoV

"It's not what he said, Wherry."

ya callin Wherry a liar?
well are ya, Dennis-the-menace?

methinks
that without the links (to back up your accusation)
yer just one of the dinks

http://intensedebate.com/people/Dennis_F Dennis_F

This is exactly what I"m talking about. Some of you are losing complete coherence at the thought of not being able to know how many toilets in good standing people have in their homes.

Matlock

"not being able to know how many toilets in good standing people have in their homes."

For the umpteenth time, this is not a census question. Update your talking points. Maybe this morning's "Info-alert" has some good tidbits for ya.

http://intensedebate.com/people/Dennis_F Dennis_F

They want to know if the plumbing in my house is in good standing, right?

Look, I know this is like some kind of a bizarre religion to some of you leftists, but why can't people keep some information private from the government? Why do you want to get your hands on these things, then scream when you can't?
Greg

I find the Conservative obsession with toilets fascinating. Let this be a lesson to us all. Poor toilet training has consequences.
http://intensedebate.com/people/Dennis_F Dennis_F

I'm not the one who wants private information from Canadians at the threat of jail. You do. Does this mean you have anal problems? Next.
Greg

Your paranoia is your problem. I am just trying to figure out its root cause.
http://intensedebate.com/people/Dennis_F Dennis_F

What "paranoia?" You want private information from people at the threat of jail, right? And when some people disagree, you bring up their "toilet training," right?
Greg

That's because your objections are so absurd as to invite mockery. How many people have gone to jail since the first Canadians census was created? Bueller? Bueller? Enough with the paranoid fantasies of jack booted Stats Can police. They only exist in the minds of the demented and Conservative Party members.
http://intensedebate.com/people/Dennis_F Dennis_F

So you're not in favour of a mandatory census? You're in favour of people refusing to answer the census without penalty? Then what in the world are you going on about? Geez.
Greg

No, I am saying obey the law and you have no problem. And I am also saying that if you refuse to obey the law, history suggests you will be fined, rather than jailed. I am saying you have worked yourself into a frenzy for little more than a speeding ticket. By all means rant away.
wilson

'How many people have gone to jail'

none,
because the long form is not covered under the Statistics Act,
only mandatory surveys: population census and agriculture.
that's why with the stroke of a pen, Clement can make the change.
Greg

Hang on a second Wilson, how can the government say it is defending people from jail? Are you accusing Clement of lying?
Jan

Toilets, bedrooms and they've always talking about things being shoved down their throats. Weird.
http://intensedebate.com/people/Dennis_F Dennis_F

Ah, Jan, thanks for showing up and contributing like you did as "bc" on Bourque. What would the internet be without your types?
practical mom

Well, water supply is a real issue that needs to be discussed. How many toilets, and how many might be newer, low-flush, might be important information for designing water treatment and sewage treatment facilities.

These are vital, publically funded facilities and I wouldn't want them to be under capacity, causing problems, or over capacity, costing tax payers too much.
http://intensedebate.com/people/Dennis_F Dennis_F

This is all local stuff, isn't it? Why does the federal government need this info? And I'm sure even the locals can get an accurate idea based on current capacities and such. Don't know why bureaucrats want all this info unless it's for some kind of power trip.
Steve

The authority of municipalities in Canada is incredibly limited. One of the main reasons why the Federation of Canadian Municipalities was one of the first to balk at the Conservatives decision is the concern that this is another responsibility that will be downloaded to them without the resources to do it right. But why fix what isn't broken in the first place?

FCM's letter to Tony Clement
http://www.fcm.ca//CMFiles/TonyClementJuly81LZV-7…
http://intensedebate.com/people/Dennis_F Dennis_F

Wait a minute. To build local infrastructure, local governments need private information collected from federal bureaucrats? Why doesn't that seem right to me? As for the FCM, yes, it would be totally out of the question that they'd engage in a political dispute with the feds, wouldn't it.

It's funny how the only people ever accused of "politics" are the federal Tories. Every other institution in this confederation is completely in it for everyone else's sake, so altruistic are they.
Steve

I'm not sure that I understand your argument…

Why would it be a problem for municipal governments to get data from a public department at the federal level? Municipalities often have neither the authority or the finances to get this data themselves… I'm really not understanding where your finding the great moral fault here… Why shouldn't the municipality of Prince George, BC get statistical data from a better organized and national department?

Why did you bring in this distinction between "politics" and benign bureaucracy? Nothing in my post indicated any kind of division between municipal and federal governments along these lines, and I don't see how it contributes to anything…
http://intensedebate.com/people/Dennis_F Dennis_F

I just find it curious that the levels of government directly responsible for providing services would be so reliant on federal bureaucrats collecting private information on people.

Indeed, countries in Europe are considering scrapping mandatory censuses too. I mean, if the technocrats overseas can do without it, why can't we?

Regarding politics, I just find it curious that only one organization in the entire country is accused of practicing it, and that's the Conservative Party of Canada. Apparently all other organizations are in it for everybody else, right?

Then again, never mind.
http://intensedebate.com/people/c_9 c_9

Please research the countries without a census. Many have a gigantic "big brother" or "cradle-to-grave" database already about their citizens — there is no NEED for a census, they already have every detail they need about you.

Also, you ignored the question of finances. Should only rich cities (read: large urban centres) have the resources to send out surveys on information they need, while smaller or rapidly growing cities and towns have to just guess? Shared data allows all cities and towns to benefit in their planning.
http://intensedebate.com/people/Dennis_F Dennis_F

Wait a minute. You're saying that a big brother style database would solve our problems? Yikes, this is getting even scarier than I thought!
http://intensedebate.com/people/c_9 c_9

No, and my apologies if I gave that impression (which I really don't think I did).

I find it frustrating that some people simultaneously hold the view that government intrusion and knowledge of "private" information is bad, but that the Scandinavian countries with no census at all are somehow proof that we don't need the census.
Halo_Override

You put private in scare quotes! Are you a Communist?

– long rant about communism that in no way addresses your point –

And that's how I proved that the census crisis is a Liberal/msm invention!
Greg

In fact Dennis, he was saying the opposite. In fact it was you who suggested going all European on us. Make up your mind.
Andrew (not P or C)

You're saying we should emulate the European model of scrapping the census and replacing with a comprehensive government database of all your personal and private information.
Steve

Fine. These are relevant questions. The Economist had an interesting article this week on why the census might eventually go the way of the dinosaurs.

This would be a very different story if the Conservatives had said: "Hey, look at these northern European countries. They get by without the census, what can we learn from them."

But thats the exact opposite of what happened. Instead, they chose to imitate an experiment by the George W. Bush administration that was eventually rejected and cited as being more expensive and less reliable than the mandatory census. And now they are telling the public that they know something about statistics that the experts don't! Its the worst kind of populism you can get.

Unless the government comes forward with a report on how these European countries work without the census (my guess is that is a question of overlapping bureaucracies and little to do with libertarianism)… I just can't take this argument seriously.
http://intensedebate.com/people/Dennis_F Dennis_F

Somehow I doubt very much that anything the Conservatives would have said coming out of the gate would have silenced the left-wing outrage machine in this country. However, having said that, and in hindsight, could they have been more prepared for the outrage machine? Maybe.
Steve

At this point I think the one technique this government has mastered more than anything else is creating outrage. It is classic divide and conquer tactics. Because the Conservatives are betting that petty class warfare between a technocratic elite and regular Joe and Jane Canada will be electric. i.e., Good for Them. This is all the census shenanigans has been about, shallow politics in an uncertain election season. So yes, it is going to anger some people when the sitting government is willing to seriously risk undermining the integrity of what should be one of the most independent federal departments for such crass purposes.

And the more anyone points out the complete lunacy and mismanagement., the stubbornness of going about governing in such a piss poor manner, the better to frame them as elitists… regardless of the reasonableness of the government's actions. Its paranoid and divisive politics…
http://intensedebate.com/people/Halo_Override Halo_Override

Typo alert: I think you meant "internationally-maligned Marxist pamphlet The Economist".
wilson

Why can't the municipal governments simply take historical data, like oh say my water bill, building permits, dog licences, etc. and figure things out from there?
Greg

Cuz that would be really expensive and would be really inefficient and small towns and rural areas wouldn't be able to afford it. Are Conservatives throwing their rural base to the wolves?
http://intensedebate.com/people/Dennis_F Dennis_F

It would be really expensive to take information they already have and use it for other things they need to do? Or, why not give this info to the feds and let them sort it out? There has to be some solution that doesn't involve the obsessive desire for private information, at the threat of jail, doesn't there?
Andrew (not P or C)

You're suggesting every municipality should form a statistics bureau. That would be costly, and I think there is also insufficient qualified statisticians in the country, besides.

Or, are you advocating the government create massive, overarching databases of every scrap of information about you, accessible by any bureaucrat without competent privacy controls? Because, if every municipality maintained such a system, you better believe your neighbours would be reading up on you.
http://intensedebate.com/people/Jenn_ Jenn_

In Canada, providing statistics is a federal responsibility. As Canada’s central statistical agency, Statistics Canada is legislated to serve this function for the whole of Canada and each of the provinces and territories.

Statistics Canada website, "about us" tab.
wilson

''Service Alberta regulates the registration of all vital events that occur in Alberta such as births, deaths, marriages, and legal changes of name.
Vital Statistics also provides statistical information to governments and approved health related agencies for comparison and research.''

If every province is responsible for birth and death statistics,
wouldn't an accurate, even exact, count of Canada's population be found at these 'registers'?
Chris

No, because it doesn't take immigration and emigration into account. But even if it were possible, privacy laws in Canada are such that it's virtually impossible to link all these databases together.

http://intensedebate.com/people/NorthernPoV NorthernPoV

still waitin for da links…………….

http://intensedebate.com/people/Dennis_F Dennis_F

To what? Stop hyperventilating over the census and start articulating a coherent thought, will ya?

Wherry said that Day made a claim about children doing surveys, and that's clearly not what he said. Wherry posted the quote, and the link. What else do you want? Information on how many toilets I've changed in my house?
http://intensedebate.com/people/Jenn_ Jenn_

"that's clearly not what he said. Wherry posted the quote"

And there, ladies and gentlemen, is why we should give up on ever getting anything through to Dennis F.
http://intensedebate.com/people/Dennis_F Dennis_F

This is hilarious. Many leftists on here have this need to try to discredit opponents on here, rather than deal with their arguments. Yet this has to be one of the most incoherent and lazy attempts to that end. In fact, it seems pretty much par-for-the-course in this thread. Lord forbid anyone doesn't want to go to jail for answering questions about plumbing!
http://intensedebate.com/people/Halo_Override Halo_Override

I don't believe for a moment that you can't read, as your grammar and spelling are consistently laudable.

But you refuse to — whether it comes to other commenters or outside sources. You have no interest in addressing other people's points. You have nothing of substance to say, beyond a perpetual "NO U!" You have no interest in discussion, and are happy to repeat the same obvious fabrications over and over and over.

That is one of the reasons why I stopped bothering to reply to you quite some time ago (this post excepted). I expect I'm not alone in this.

Next.
http://intensedebate.com/people/Jenn_ Jenn_

Yeah, I'm on the "don't discuss with Dennis F" list too, so he is at least right in that my responses to his comments aren't debating him anymore.
http://intensedebate.com/people/Halo_Override Halo_Override

Well, one must allow for some fun in life.

Anon Liberal

"I just watched a movie yesterday that might be very timely. It's called Question 7."
—————————————

From the people that brought you the Left Behind movies…

http://intensedebate.com/people/Dennis_F Dennis_F

Wow, are some of you every desperate on this census thingy.

No. Question 7 was a feature film that received the National Board of Review Award for Best Film.

It was a time when Hollywood liberals weren't afraid to denounce communism! Go figure.

Actually, it was a pretty good movie. I was flipping the channels, came across this on, yes, an evangelical station, and was starting to roll my eyes and turn the channel, until I got hooked and watched until the end. Quite gripping.

Nowadays, Hollywood makes films about cartoons that were once TV shows, or something.

Greg

Census=Communism. Not too much crazy.

frobisher

And the census demands that you denounce your religion so you can go to music school? Who knew?

http://intensedebate.com/people/Dennis_F Dennis_F

No, but it does apparently attract a bunch of leftists who get really really mad if you don't answer an intrusive questionnaire.

Steve

So you think it would be wise for only 'leftists' to fill out the long form census once it is voluntary?

http://intensedebate.com/people/Dennis_F Dennis_F

No. Next.
Steve

Well. This is the conundrum that I've found a lot of opponents of the mandatory long form get themselves into.

The rational behind having a mandatory census given to 20% of Canadians is to ensure randomness.. Little to do with accuracy or compliance as some have suggested.

So this claim that only leftists would want to fill out the form, and principled conservatives would refuse because it is an intrusion, is logically going to lead to some very skewed data that is not representative of Canadians at all.

Hence many statisticians saying that the voluntary long form will be WORSE than useless.
http://intensedebate.com/people/Dennis_F Dennis_F

So this claim that only leftists would want to fill out the form, and principled conservatives would refuse because it is an intrusion, is logically going to lead to some very skewed data that is not representative of Canadians at all.

You know, for people who keep preaching about the need for accurate information to make informed decisions, it's rather ironic that you're resorting to such inaccurate reading of information provided here, and responses therein.

Where in the world are you getting this stuff about leftists and conservatives responding? Are you making it up, like the members of the Jedi order on the census?

frobisher

""I just watched a movie yesterday that might be very timely. It's called Question 7. It's about a pastor living in 1960-ish East Germany whose son is forced to complete a questionnaire in school handed out by the Communist party. Failure to do so would result in exclusion from the best schools and opportunities that the state has to offer.

It's like some of you want that for us!"

Could have sworn you were worried about oboe lessons. Or something, given the citation.

Because nobody is not going to get into LCC or UCC because they didn't fill out the census. And, anyway, those are fetid breeding grounds for 'elites'. The fewer the better, right? They're the only pinheads who oppose this brilliant tactic, after all.

Standing By

I am enjoying the apparent sense of panic setting in for the Harperites, who felt so strongly that there would be cavernous gap between elite and main street opinion on this.

What seems to be clear is that the more people know about this, the less likely they are to base their conclusions on the simplistic one-liner (Oh no, the survey asks some questions that are intrusive!) that underlies this needless and expensive policy shift.

Hey Harperites! Have a nice day!

http://intensedebate.com/people/Dennis_F Dennis_F

Where are you getting this information? The only people I see going ape over this census are the Wherrys and other leftist types.

Standing By

If you're a supporter of Harper wrecking the census, and you're not panicking, then you aren't paying attention.

http://intensedebate.com/people/Dennis_F Dennis_F

Can you try again, this time in coherent English? Amazing that the same people who say they want accurate information on our bedrooms in a census can't even put together a sensible post defending their views on getting accurate information on our bedrooms in a census. Funny that.

http://intensedebate.com/people/Douglass Douglass

Next stop city hall! You know they know about your bedrooms too! Scoundrels! They may even have your floor plan on file! Ekkkk! Gasp! Who need permits anyways….right?
http://intensedebate.com/people/Dennis_F Dennis_F

Why do they need to know about my plumbing, or what time I get up in the morning?

And if the federal government isn't providing a permit for my home, why do they need the info? At the threat of jail?
Holly Stick

Stupid Dennis, if you expect to use the publically funded sewage system, you had better hope that someone in government knows that you need it, or your basement is gonna fill up real fast.
http://intensedebate.com/people/doug_rogers doug_rogers

Oh, but is the government forcing him, under threat of fines and/or jail time, to use the sewer system?
Andrew (not P or C)

Dennis, go read the StatsCan website. They explain why they ask every single question. If you object to one of the questions, you can complain to them. It would be more productive than your tantrum here about the evil government asking you about your toilets.
wilson

that's right Douglass,
and city hall knows about renos too, with electrical/plumbing/building permits.

So why not have city hall just shoot that info over to the feds,
voila no need to ask!
Andrew (not P or C)

Either this info is private, and the government shouldn't know or compel you to answer, or it isn't private, and they can. Make up your mind.

http://intensedebate.com/people/doug_rogers doug_rogers

CPC: hacking StatsCan to the same level of information reliability as the internet.

http://intensedebate.com/people/Dennis_F Dennis_F

Angus Reid ran the most accurate poll during the election using online surveys, didn't they?

wilson

If it was voluntary, it is meaningless.
Without threat of fine or jail, the 'right' kind of people won't answer the survey.

http://intensedebate.com/people/doug_rogers doug_rogers

No, if it was voluntary, it is not a truly representative sample. You seem very deliberately obtuse about understanding that. If you poll the people interested in voting you will get a result that matches the interests of those people who are interested in voting. I've never taken a single course in statistics and even I understand that.

http://intensedebate.com/people/Dennis_F Dennis_F

No. Polls are voluntary, and they do consist of samples that are considered representative. I've actually taken statistics courses, so maybe that's why I know, and you don't.
http://intensedebate.com/people/doug_rogers doug_rogers

Some of my responses have been blown away by this extremely reliable internet thing.

As I recall, I said something like: You seem to be saying that voluntary polls return results representative of those who answer the poll.

http://dougsamu.wordpress.com doug_rogers

As above, so below. It is not a truly representative sample because it polls the people interested in responding. And they preclude being totally accurate to within two points 19 times out of 20. Decent enough accuracy, but not scientifically reliable.

As in, we've polled these apples and they fall down plus or minus two points, 19 times out of 20

Almost good enough to shoot a rocket at the moon.

http://intensedebate.com/people/Dennis_F Dennis_F

So, a mandatory survey that has a chunk of its respondents claiming to be members of the Jedi order is considered completely accurate to you, is it?

You know, I'm not a statistician, buy my guess is that even these at-threat-of-jail surveys contain some amount of error, too.

Sometimes I wonder if this is about accuracy, or just about power; the power over regular people's lives.

Steve

People can answer however they please about what religion they are. Obviously there is no accurate answer on such a subjective question, and if some people want to put down 'Jedi' as their religion than all the power to them. Something tells me that for people interested in studying religious affiliation in Canada will not pay it too much heed.

And of course the census contains errors! But what good comes from making the data even less reliable?

Your argument about power is intriguing but vague. Perhaps you could expand what you mean by regulation?
http://intensedebate.com/people/doug_rogers doug_rogers

Some of my responses have been blown away by this extremely reliable internet thing.

As I recall, I said something like: I didn't say 'completely accurate, I said 'representative sample'.

Jan

Angus Reid samples are self selecting. They pay people to participate. Go on their website and check it out.

http://intensedebate.com/people/Dennis_F Dennis_F

Exactly. And they're accurate. You just made my point, genius. As always, "Jan", thanks for showing up.

Steve

Accurate to what?

What is your test? What is the population?
http://intensedebate.com/people/Dennis_F Dennis_F

Accurate in the sense that how people actually ended up voting on election day, versus how an Angus Reid poll said they would vote, was pretty close; closer than any other major poll in Canada, if my memory service me correctly.
Steve

Apologies. I misinterpreted and thought you meant with regards to polling on census opinions. My fault entirely.

Still… I don't think it would be too wise to collect census data through a paid online survey..
http://intensedebate.com/people/Dennis_F Dennis_F

Nobody suggested such. However, the idea that accurate information can't be collected online is somehow misguided, isn't it? Maybe someone should have told Wherry that before he engaged in this latest egg bomb.
http://intensedebate.com/people/doug_rogers doug_rogers

'Pretty close' ≠ accurate.
http://intensedebate.com/people/Dennis_F Dennis_F

Yeah, they pretty much mean the same thing. Geez. Where do some of you learn logic and critical thinking? From a census? lol

http://intensedebate.com/people/doug_rogers doug_rogers

As Dennis, upstairs, says, "buy my guess".

http://intensedebate.com/people/Dennis_F Dennis_F

How about in English this time?

Again, I find it curious how the same people who seem to worship that so-called scientific gathering of information are the same people who have trouble communicating simple information on an Internet board.
http://intensedebate.com/people/doug_rogers doug_rogers

Try reading your posts sometimes

And I do not worship science. You're projecting.
http://intensedebate.com/people/Dennis_F Dennis_F

Oh brother. First you can't respond to me in proper English, then you basically come up with an I-know-you-are-but-what-am-I defence. Then you end up deflecting while accusing me of projecting. Very funny indeed. Thanks!

Andrew (not P or C)

And they used the census to make it so. Let's see how well they do with a voluntary census to adjust their polls for sampling bias.

http://intensedebate.com/people/amherstvw amherstvw

For me this is a valuable lesson in "change management" although I'm not sure what I've learned.
1 Afghanistan documents, omnibus "budget" bill, F-35, governor-general … etc.
2 People are upset about $1-2B on G-20 and the many bad decisions attached thereto …
3 Census … federal hiring policies …

" It takes too much time and you're threatening me with jail. You have no right to ask me those questions. See? no one else has a census "

When so many financially unwise decisions have been made costing billions … people are getting really upset because sometime in the future they MAY receive a long census form which MAY ask them questions they don't like. And it's the "elite" statisticians who are the "problem" for being professional and "wanting to see citizens in jail"?
http://intensedebate.com/people/amherstvw amherstvw

OK Elites (in contrast): POTUS & other foreign leaders and their bureaucrats, the Queen, security officials, engineers who build F-35 stealth fighters and military brass who choose F-35s, governor-general, people who draft omnibus legislation and get it passed. Are the people in this paragraph really "Tim Hortons people"? Couldn't one say a lot of un-TimHortonly things about them too?

http://intensedebate.com/people/Jenn_ Jenn_

It's good to keep a list like this. Because at any moment, any one of the groups on it could run afoul of the Elite police.
http://intensedebate.com/people/s_c_f s_c_f

Except for the queen and governor-general, you could probably find some of all of those types of people in a Tim Horton's.

amherstvw

An "elite" could be an F-35 engineer working for a Canadian subcontractor, who, if educated in Canada, received a "subsidized education" … who makes an "expensive wasteful product" which will "never be used in war to protect Canadian families" … who depends on the "hard work of taxpaying Canadian families" for his salary … who could be replaced if we brought in foreign workers who would "welcome a chance to succeed in Canada" and if given a chance to have their credentials recognized by the "entrenched professional elites". All he's doing is working hard to design a safe, economical strut or something … but now we've made him lazy, greedy and evil. He wants to live off the sweat of an auto mechanic who enjoys Tim Hortons !

As Jenn suggests, if the government DIDN'T want F-35s, it would be pretty simple to turn a "Tim Hortons" auto mechanic against the "enemy elite" F-35 engineer to poison the idea of ever buying F-35s.

http://intensedebate.com/people/s_c_f s_c_f

I don't have the slightest idea what you're talking about, it's not making any sense.

http://intensedebate.com/people/A_logician A_logician

Stock has apparently conflated God and Google as the source of revealed truth.
http://twitter.com/good_egg @good_egg

As Mr. Day seems to find the internet an infallible source of data, he must love his colourful Wikipedia bio! http://bit.ly/cUIkBl. Just to keep the fun rolling, I updated it — accurately– to include this newest misstep in his already wacky career.

wilson

Any egg can input information into Wikipedia.

frobisher

It's voluntary, too!
Jan

Oops wilson, you're shredding Stockwell's argument.

wilson

LOL, I should have said 12 year old egg!

s_c_f

How mature of you, Kathleen Sandy. You're like one of those people that spray-paints graffiti on buildings.

A career that includes being a cabinet minister is not wacky.

Andrew (not P or C)

They let anyone into cabinet these days. Besides, most of them don't actually do anything. See latest Wells.

http://intensedebate.com/people/BGLong BGLong

Ah, for the good old days (h/t Contrarian) ….

http://contrarian.ca/2010/07/23/harper-defeats-ce…
http://secondthots.blogspot.com Dennis_F

Oh, and since we're on the topic of Statistics Canada, and their need to get private information from Canadians, why is it that they're so keen on wanting to know about our plumbing, but not so keen on providing accurate statistics on publicly funded 'medical procedures?"

The facts on late-term abortions are intentionally made difficult to obtain. Some time ago, I contacted a staff member at Statistics Canada to ask about the numbers of late-term abortions. She told me they were instructed for political reasons not to collect statistics on the gestational age at which abortion occurs.

Also keep in mind that Statistics Canada is being held up as some kind of non-political guardian of public information, even though it's taking a fit over not being able to know if our plumbing is working properly, but hiding important information about when fetuses are being killed in the womb.

practical mom

Did you ask which government gave that instruction? Good statistics give people real information. Hiding information on late term abortions could serve both sides of the debate; both sides are free to make suggestions as to what those statistics might show in support of their particular view. Hiding the information doesn't serve Canadians.

And that is the value of the mandatory long form. It gives Canadians of all points of view factual data to make their decisions.

http://intensedebate.com/people/Dennis_F Dennis_F

I'm just giving you an account of what actually happened. So, if it did actually happen, you would agree that Statistics Canada isn't always above-the-fray, right? That it isn't the all-so-holy institution that some are making it out to be.

Actually, the primary reason for wanting to withhold, or even disclose, such information is pretty clear. You hide it if late term abortions are more frequent than you'd like Canadians to know. You don't if they're less frequent.

Since a primary argument from social liberals about abortion is that late term abortions are rare, it's pretty clear why accurate information might be held on the topic, isn't it?

Oh, and I love how you're using the name "practical mom" in this thread. Are you suggesting that killing fetuses in the womb is some kind of practical thing? Just wondering.

practical mom

You hide the number if it is very low but you want people to believe it is much higher. You hide the number if it is high and you want people to believe that it is really much lower.

And StatsCan didn't make the decision. You said yourself they were directed to. Remember that they operate under the direction of a minister. At any time since forming the government the Conservatives could have directed StatsCan to begin collecting this data.

I have said nothing about how I feel about killing foetuses. My only suggestion is that the data would inform the debate. Maybe Tony Clement can direct StatsCan to produce and make public this data.

http://intensedebate.com/people/Dennis_F Dennis_F

If the data would inform the debate, then why is it allegedly being hidden — by Statistics Canada?

It's funny how the institution gets praised for its independence until the second it gets accused of some possible wrongdoing. Then it's the minister's fault. Interesting.
Andrew (not P or C)

When StatsCan says it doesn't gather information fpr 'political reasons' that usually points to interference by the political leadership, the Minister.
http://intensedebate.com/people/Jenn_ Jenn_

You certainly make a good argument for making StatsCan an independent arm, like the AG.
practical mom

I would like to see StatsCan become independent of political interference. I used to assume that the people we elect to run our government would do so in the best interests of Canadians. This government makes me feel that we need more institutions independent of elected officials and more restrictions on what elected officials can do.

I never felt that before because even when I didn't particularly agree with government actions, I didn't see them as destructive. Canadians need to take more interest in the running of our country.

bwb

Stockwell Day, 12 year olds, and the internet – go figure.

http://intensedebate.com/people/Halo_Override Halo_Override

Consequences will never be the same.

knick

Isn't this the same guy who decided that the federal government's employment equity program needs to be reviewed because a (as in one) Conservative blogger complained about being unable to apply for a particular position? Whatever would this country do without the sheer genius of people like Stockwell Day?
Anon 001

Stockwell Day. Still a jackass.
Wascally Wabbit

Glad Stockboy has discovered the Internet.
I wonder how long it will take him to discover all the lies published on it about the universe being billions of years old – lots more than 6,000 years?
http://intensedebate.com/people/M_A_D_world M_A_D_world

Any government can lose the middle road voters but I'm feeling this one is trying to ditch it's core voters lately. Might be time to entertain the idea of a cabinet shuffle.
Mike

Young Earth Creationists, such as Mr. Day, are certainly known for their understanding and use of evidence. NOT!
http://intensedebate.com/people/_drewski _drewski

i thought his comment comparing Canada to oppressive regimes cause of the mandatory census to be the dumbest (& most offensive) comment by far