Beyond The Commons

Beyond The Commons

Aaron Wherry covers all the goings-on in and around Parliament Hill. Follow Aaron on Twitter: @aaronwherry

One more for the list

by Aaron Wherry on Sunday, July 25, 2010 10:37pm - 0 Comments

The government of Nunavut opposes the new census.

Peterson said the Nunavut government needs information gleaned from the long form so it can plan how to spend millions of dollars every year on new housing construction. Nunavut has the highest rate of overcrowding — more than one person per bedroom — in the country, at nearly four times the national average.

The census information, Peterson said, helps guide decisions about what kind of housing to build to combat such issues. “To me, that’s valuable information we would have at our fingertips.”

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  • Emily

    People don't even realize how often they use the information.

    Clement even quotes it.

  • http://intensedebate.com/people/Jenn_ Jenn_

    When you think of Nunavut, is the first thing that crosses your mind "overcrowded"?

    Me neither. Huh. What a wonderful country we have. Full of surprises!

    • http://intensedebate.com/people/Stewart_Smith Stewart_Smith

      Well, there are only surprises if you ask the questions.

    • Dave

      To answer your question, yes.

      "Overcrowding" is a statement about how many people live in a given number of rooms, an accurate measure of which requires… a statistically sound census.

      It's not the same thing as population density, which is how many people live in a given area of land. Nunavut has a much lower population density than West Vancouver, but the latter is not overcrowded.

    • http://intensedebate.com/people/Gaunilon Gaunilon

      It's a statement about wealth and housing, not population density.

  • BCer in Mtl

    Yeah, but Tony Clement helped save a drowning woman.

    • Holly Stick

      Actually his wife and father-in-law did most of the saving but he got the headline.

      • Sigh

        They may have done the saving, but he did the twittering.

    • Dave

      Anything for a vote, eh Tony?

      Nah, just kidding. Good on ya, and hope your rescuee is doing well.

      • burlivespipe

        It's reported her first words were how much she hated filling out those long forms…

    • http://intensedebate.com/people/danby danby

      I hope there's infrastructure money left over to build a commemorative gazebo there

  • Getreal

    Beats me why putting someone in jail is good. Its just a form for heavens sakes. Jail bad, expensive and not needed. Get real people. This is about not puting people in jail for poitical reasons. Political prisoners in Canada. Why and who is next?

    • Jan

      Really easy solution – remove threat of jail penalty. Fine only.

    • Emily

      No, it's not just a form. Pay attention.

    • http://ragingranter.blogspot.com Raging_Ranter

      I doubt too many people go to jail over the census. One woman from Saskatchewan is at risk of doing so right now, because she's on some kind of crusade, egged on by the privacy monkeys. I didn't fill out mine the last time. I wasn't deliberately being obstinate or anything, I just kind of neglected it and it went passed the deadline. Then a nice lady from the government called me and we completed the thing over the phone, in about two minutes. There was never any mention of me going to jail, or even a lecture warning me of such.

      • Jan

        Actually the woman in Saskatchewan's gripe is that the supplier of the software was Lockheed Martin and she's a pacifist. This whole government coercion nonsense is just a diversion. If that was really the government's concern they could simply remove the threat of jail.

      • dpt

        yes thsoe privacy monkeys are subversive and dangerous. we should find out how many of them there are and , and, and oh shit how are we going to get a reliable sample now?

  • Jan

    'More than one person per bedroom' – I wonder how they figured that out.

    • Dave

      Stockwell Day went on the internets and figured it out?

    • http://intensedebate.com/people/DerekPearce DerekPearce

      They cross-referenced the Bedroom Database with the Revenue Canada Database and then they… oh, you say there isn't a bedroom database? Nevermind…

  • Gaunilon

    Why is the government building housing in Nunavut, rather than private corporations at the behest of paying customers?

    • http://intensedebate.com/people/JustinWordswrth JustinWordswrth

      To justify the census?

      • Emily

        I love jokers.

        • http://intensedebate.com/people/JustinWordswrth JustinWordswrth

          As do I. They're the only people I can take seriously.

          • Emily

            Yeah, it's ignorance I dislike.

          • http://intensedebate.com/people/JustinWordswrth JustinWordswrth

            The world is full of things to be ignorant of. As long as one cares enough not to look.

          • Emily

            Except we can't afford that anymore.

          • http://intensedebate.com/people/JustinWordswrth JustinWordswrth

            Well they'll just have to adjust their prices.

          • Emily

            Dead doesn't have a price, so it won't need adjusting.

          • http://intensedebate.com/people/JustinWordswrth JustinWordswrth

            It seems the cost of living is killing us.

          • Emily

            No, the cost of dying.

          • http://intensedebate.com/people/JustinWordswrth JustinWordswrth

            Many people are willing to trade their lives for something to live for.

          • Emily

            That one doesn't even make sense.

            Fail

          • http://intensedebate.com/people/JustinWordswrth JustinWordswrth

            There is nothing that makes one so unintelligible as making sense.

          • http://intensedebate.com/people/Halo_Override Halo_Override

            This is my favorite episode of Moonlighting.

          • http://intensedebate.com/people/Gaunilon Gaunilon

            LOL.

            Hats off to you Mr. Wilde.

          • dpt

            you must hate yourself

          • JustinWordswrth

            Many people would hate themselves if only they took the time to get to know them.

    • http://intensedebate.com/people/Ricard_S_Argent Richard_S_Argent

      Remember "Use It or Lose It"?

      • http://intensedebate.com/people/Gaunilon Gaunilon

        "Use it" means "put military bases there and offer tax incentives for companies to exploit local resources so that people move there to take jobs and set up communities" in my book, not "build houses because no one is willing to build their own".

        • Emily

          You have any idea where Nunavut is, or what's there?

          I thought not.

          • http://intensedebate.com/people/Gaunilon Gaunilon

            You mean the diamond mine near Cambridge Bay, the gold mine at Contwoyto Lake, and the reserves of oil and natural gas throughout the territory?

            Yes, I kind of do.

          • Emily

            All they have is mining.

            No other resources.

            Biggest place in Canada, with about 30.000 people.

          • Gaunilon

            "All they have is mining"

            And fishing. And hunting. And tourism.

            There was a time when Alaska had nothing but mining, fishing, hunting, and tourism to draw people. It got used, and there is no question of its ownership. There is no reason why Canada can't do the same with Nunavut, unless we kill industry by paying for housing and living costs instead of encouraging the attitude that there is wealth and opportunity to be had if government offers military protection (i.e. CF bases and police) and otherwise gets out of the way.

            The only difference is that we don't have to buy it from the Russians first, since we already own it.

          • Emily

            Well they don't have much in the way of tourism….even Flaherty's buddies didn't want to stay there.

            Fishing and hunting is more subsistence living.

            Alaska only got going because of the war, and they still don't have much.

            There is no 'industry' to be had…and no people to work in it anyway.

            There is nothing to build a house with….it all has to be 'imported'.

            They don't need military protection fergawdsake….from what??

          • http://intensedebate.com/people/Gaunilon Gaunilon

            "There is no 'industry' to be had…"

            Mining, remember? We just agreed that there was mining. It's an industry.

            "…and no people to work in it anyway. "

            In that case the unemployment rate will drop, and the salaries will skyrocket. This will draw more people. These people will pay for housing, occupy land, and be willing to use their new salaries to pay for services. The demand for services will draw other people looking for high salaries. This is the way our country has always settled territory, as long as government provided protection, rule of law, and otherwise minimal interference.

          • Emily

            Beyond mining….which isn't industry anyway, it's a resource economy not manufacturing.

            Since most people there are hunters, the miners are imported. They already get high pay…and then they leave.

            You obviously have no idea how we've 'always settled territory'.

            The people there have law, and they don't need protection.

          • Brian

            To the original point, wherever that was, folks like me who want to persuade the government to let the private sector handle such things need the census data to show how ineffective the public sector has been in the past.

            So, save the long form!

          • Emily

            LOL hey, it's an angle.

          • http://intensedebate.com/people/Gaunilon Gaunilon

            …and if the government of Nunavut was making that argument, I'd heartily agree.

          • Emily

            And as soon as they get a private sector they'll let you know.

          • Gaunilon

            "Beyond mining….which isn't industry anyway…"
            "You obviously have no idea how we've 'always settled territory'."

            I was having doubts about engaging in this one from the get-go. Should have gone with my gut after the initial assertion that I had no idea where Nunavut is.

          • Emily

            You still don't. You just have Ayn Rand wet dreams.

          • http://intensedebate.com/people/Sir_Francis Sir_Francis

            On the upside, you're better informed on the location of Nunavut than on the location of the Carp branch of the Ottawa public library. So keep that chin up!

          • http://ragingranter.blogspot.com Raging_Ranter

            Go easy on her. She is but a child. That precociousness might turn into curiosity and a desire to learn some day, and then we'll be glad we didn't discourage it.

          • http://ragingranter.blogspot.com Raging_Ranter

            Beyond mining…which isn't industry anyway, it's a resource economy not manufacturing.

            There are many economic illiterates out there. Few are so willing to advertise it.

            Where to you suppose manufacturing gets its resources from, to, you know, manufacture stuff? And where do you suppose resource extraction firms get their expensive equipment from, if not from manufacturers? Manufacturing wouldn't exist if not for resource extraction.

          • Out There

            This is the way our country has always settled territory, as long as government provided protection, rule of law, and otherwise minimal interference.

            Large parts of Canada were settled because the Canadian government offered free land on the Prairies – with only a $10 administration fee – to farmers who were willing to cultivate at least 40 acres and build a permanent dwelling within three years. (This was the Dominion Lands Act, passed in 1872.)

            Presumably, today's government does not want Nunavut to be completely uninhabited, so similar incentives – such as government-provided housing – are needed to keep people there.

          • http://ragingranter.blogspot.com Raging_Ranter

            That was a reasonable policy back when people were expected to scratch their living from the soil, with no public services to speak of. Nowadays, we're expected to provide healthcare, education, roads, etc. Which makes it kind of important that you don't encourage settlement in areas where there is little economy to support it.

        • http://intensedebate.com/people/Raging_Ranter Raging_Ranter

          Well that's the whole reservation system in a nutshell isn't it? (And Nunavut is kind of a large reservation.) Build houses and encourage people to live where there is no possible way of making a living. It's been government policy for over a century. That it's been a disaster for all involved has never stopped us before. Why would we stop doing it now?

          • http://intensedebate.com/people/Gaunilon Gaunilon

            Agreed. It is a tragedy, particularly for our First Nations.

          • Emily

            Well they've been there for thousands of years, so they won't be leaving anytime soon.

          • TedTylerEzro

            No, they certainly haven't been under the reservation system for thousands of years.

          • Emily

            No, they never have been.

          • Holly Stick

            Especially since in Canada it's called the reserve system and it has never been applied in the north, though various other abhorrent aspects of Canadian policy were imposed on the people in the north.

            Raging Ranter, don't make parallel comparisons of things you know nothing about

          • http://ragingranter.blogspot.com Raging_Ranter

            So in Canada it's called the "reserve system", not the "reservation system"? Um, you do know what 'reserve' is short for don't you? Here's a hint: it rhymes with preservation.

            Holly Stick and Emily in the same thread. That explains why I'm down to explaining word meanings and other elementary concepts. I suspect hand puppets might be useful right now, provided they were brightly coloured.

          • http://intensedebate.com/people/Raging_Ranter Raging_Ranter

            Emily, here's a clue. Reservations were white man's idea.

    • http://intensedebate.com/people/Sir_Francis Sir_Francis

      Because northern Canadians are afflicted with a defeatist, can't-do attitude, obviously.

      Or, because there's not a company on the planet willing to build housing in Nunavut on such a narrow profit margin.

      • Jan

        They should send Poilievre up there to give a lecture on the work ethic.

        • http://intensedebate.com/people/Sir_Francis Sir_Francis

          Absolutely. Those shiftless wretches would no doubt profit immeasurably from the sterling entrepreneurial acumen that has bought Mr. Poilievre his well-earned eminence in the private sector.

          Seriously, tasking Poilievre with delivering a lecture would (albeit temporarily) actually give the man something he’s never had—a real job.

  • http://intensedebate.com/people/Sir_Francis Sir_Francis

    The government of Nunavut opposes the new census.

    Bah. Another special interest.

    Our New Government listens only to real, ordinary Canadians, not a bunch of whiny iglooed elites stupid enough to want to live in the middle of a frozen nowhere.

    • Brian

      I never used to feel "elite" before, but now it's official, so I preen myself in the mirror every day.

      • http://intensedebate.com/people/Halo_Override Halo_Override

        Did you get the membership package in the mail yet? Beautiful paper.

  • DerekPearce

    Your above thread Gaunilon got way too long so to bring this up again– what is the average salary of an Arctic mining (or any field) employee vs the cost of goods and services there? I think it's like $10 for a standard grocery store 4L "bag 'o' bags" of milk, so there might not be a whole lot of moolah left over for housing– especially when you consider the cost of transporting all the building materials there and the very short season in which there is to build.

    Now then, you may say, if things are so costly there, then cut public housing because a) people should just move south where the cost of living is much cheaper and therefore b) who gives a crap about dislocating Inuit from their traditional land because c) if they love that land so much, they can go back to living the way they did 100 years ago without electricity & all that electricity brings or quit complaining. I disagree with a, b & c.

    • JustinWordswrth

      Indeed. What could be more helpful to the struggling poor than building subsidised housing in the places where the cost of living is the highest?

  • Pugsy

    If the Nunavut Government needs this information they can conduct their own study. The long form is useless and un necessary not to mention the time and expense involved. Nunavut can use their own funds. They certainly get their share from the rest of us and have no problem wasting it then passing the buck as to why they couldn't keep track of it. They already misused 60 million for housing and gave no solid reason for that error except to say "we are not playing the blame game".
    They want the info from a long form then gather it themselves. Then they can design it exactly as they want it, manipulate it to produce results they want, just like they do with all their studies. ( I know first hand this has been done in the past from when I worked there, Several times I was ordered to destroy studies because they were not happy with to results. They re did them until they like what the study reported. Prime example was the Education Act and numerous studies that cost a fortune). Waste some more of our tax dollars.

    • http://intensedebate.com/people/DerekPearce DerekPearce

      Actually, the "time and expense involved" are both going to be greater now, because more long forms will be sent to more households in the hopes that at least 20% of the pop– in spite of selection bias and damage to statistical accuracy– will send the completed long form back in.

  • Anon 001

    And, later this year, Harper will ban Nunavut.

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