Beyond The Commons

Aaron Wherry covers all the goings-on in and around Parliament Hill. Follow Aaron on Twitter: @aaronwherry

Categories: Beyond The Commons, Capital Read

The Scandinavian model

by Aaron Wherry on Monday, July 26, 2010 4:34pm - 0 Comments

Gustave Goldmann, formerly a senior official at Statistics Canada, considers (scroll down) the periodically cited European model of data collection.

The critics often cite examples of countries that have done away with the census as evidence Canada should do the same in the name of privacy. What they fail to acknowledge is that the Scandinavian countries, the Netherlands and other European states have extensive administrative data bases that contain the same information that Canada gathers in the census. These data include registration numbers that are used to create linked data bases for all individuals living in these countries. The residents (citizens and non-citizens alike) in these countries are obliged to provide this information. All interactions with the state (health, education, taxation, the justice system, migration) are recorded in these data bases. Is this less intrusive, and should it be held up as an alternative?

Tags: census, Europe, Gustave Goldmann, Netherlands, Scandanavia, Statistics Canada

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Loraine Lamontagne

Sounds like another expensive alternative – and the fun it would be to negociate this with the provinces who are sole keepers of that data on individuals, on health care, for example.

Blacktop

The one I know about is AECL with BC Health as above Otherwise, never happen.

Blacktop

As I said in a post elsewhere. This approach would never fly or swim in Canada. What is not mentioned is that linkages between any files with sufficient ID data, although variable, can easily be done and have been done for more than 40 years. Example, linking incidence of BC hospital files of defective births with A-bomb fallout in milk. Other notorius examples, magazine subscriptions address files. It's old hat but depends how much you want to spend. THe point is and always has been is that it is cheaper to buy it from Stats Can.

Linking across government files is done surreptiously, of course.
John D

Where do we sign up for our barcodes? Anything to keep those census-takers away ;)

http://intensedebate.com/people/E_B_ E_B_

…won't be barcode. Implants. We are Borg, waiting to be assimilated.

Emily

The EU is doing a census in 2011.
John D

In other census news, Stephen Taylor tries to heroically and unironically take up the mantle of the hard-working, have-not Canadian vs the evil, relies-on-census-data special interests.

The good news is that being a paid shill for a political party makes you a "policy analyst" and "political commentator" who "writes from Ottawa." Ah yes, salt of the earth have-not type stuff.

John D

oops, linky: http://fullcomment.nationalpost.com/2010/07/26/st…
http://intensedebate.com/people/Dennis_F Dennis_F

I haven't heard of any groundswell of anger over no longer having to answer questions about what time you get up in the morning — at the threat of jail. Have you?

In fact, as Mr. Taylor notes, it's specifically the people and groups who have most to lose by not getting this information who have had a fit. Not really anybody else.

Andrew (not PorC)

I missed the outrage over having to answer the question in the first place. Funny how no one minded until the government floated this lead balloon.

http://intensedebate.com/people/Dennis_F Dennis_F

a) Lots of people didn't answer it, or said they were part of the Jedi order.

b) They were threatened with jail for not answering.

c) We're discussing the current rift between people having a fit over the census, and the rest of us who aren't.

Trass

People answered "Jedi" to what time they got up in the morning? Ah, I see, jumbled your talking points.
http://intensedebate.com/people/Dennis_F Dennis_F

And I said this where? I suggest you start learning some critical thinking and reading skills of your own before having the gall to accuse anyone else of mouthing other people's messages. Next.
Bob

For the umpteenth time, the people who wrote "Jedi" on the religion question were NOT protesting the census, they were making fun of religion!
http://intensedebate.com/people/Dennis_F Dennis_F

a) You know this because…..

b) Then it's still spoiled data, isn't it?

Next.
Bob

a) it's obvious to anyone not desperate to fulfill a lame talking point.

b) The numbers are small enough to not "spoil" the data, but even if the Jedi answers ruined the results of this one question, it doesn't affect the rest of the census.

Next.
http://intensedebate.com/people/Dennis_F Dennis_F

Oh, so we know the motivations behind listing oneself as a Jedi Knight on the census form because you say it's obvious. Ain't that just terrific.

And I suggest you try and stick to the topics raised in this thread. I did not state that the Jedi Knights spoiled the census altogether, just that it indicated some degree of non-compliance, which was the original topic. You following? Of course not.
http://intensedebate.com/people/Jenn_ Jenn_

"What is Jediism

Jediism is not fiction. Our ways are based on ancient wisdom as well as modern philosophies. Our ways are modern adaptations of Taoism and Buddhism. We encourage activities that cultivate physical and mental health, such as martial arts and meditation. "Jediism" is a term inspired by films created by Mr. George Lucas.

By joining the Order of the Jedi, you remain free to declare Jediism as your official religion, or not. We will provide access to a Force training program, the religion of Jediism, and other Jediism ressources, that you can use at your convenience, in complete freedom. " http://www.orderofthejedi.org

While you may not think Jedi is your version of religion; why must your version of religion rule? Knock it off with the disrespecting Jedi's. They didn't lie on the damn census–they told the truth! Deal with it, we have Jedi's in Canada.
Jan

Update your talking points Dennis – Flaherty says Canadians will be happy to answer these questions, if it's voluntary. My sympathies, keeping up with the government spin can't be easy.
http://intensedebate.com/people/Dennis_F Dennis_F

Update your educational skills, Jan. He said they'd be happy if it's voluntary. Yes. Not if they're threatened to go to jail.

Why in the world do I need talking points when reason and argumentation is so easy on here. lol. Next.
Bob

Insert obnoxious "Next." here.

http://intensedebate.com/people/charlesh Charles H.

You missed it because, as is often the case with these example questions that they're outraged about, it's never been asked.

http://secondthots.blogspot.com Dennis_F

Try again:

The long-form questionnaire, over which the debate is currently raging, is a truly intrusive instrument. Here the government forces Canadians to disclose a host of information about their private lives such as what languages they speak on a regular basis; whether they are White, Chinese, South Asian, Black, Filipino or a host of other ethnicities; where they work; how they get to work (i.e. bike, car, walk, taxi); what language they speak on the job; how much housework they do; how much time they spend playing with their kids or talking to their elders; whether or not they have any difficulty walking, climbing stairs, or bending; which member of the household pays the rent or mortgage; how many rooms their homes have (and how many are bedrooms); and whether or not their homes have any “missing or loose floor tiles,” “defective steps” or more major deficiencies like “defective plumbing.”

Read more: http://opinion.financialpost.com/2010/07/16/censu…
Charles H.

Nice try at changing the subject, but that's not what I (or, I assume, Andrew, given that he's the one that initially responded to it) is referring to.

To quote the comment that started this tangent: "I haven't heard of any groundswell of anger over no longer having to answer questions about what time you get up in the morning — at the threat of jail. Have you?"

I know that it's your own post, but do try to follow along.

http://intensedebate.com/people/amherstvw amherstvw

I asked Mr Taylor if he could get my record out of CIMS.

I wrote to my MP several times, but did not consent to my data and personal opinions being entered into the database of CPC.
burlivespipe

Salt of the earth following marching orders from He who salts the earth… What a perfect complement to each other.
http://intensedebate.com/people/Scott_Tribe Scott_Tribe

I see Mr. Taylor and I agree on at least one point. This move to kill the mandatory longform census is aimed at trying to prevent governments from having reliable data – because in that instance it will be harder to target them with government programs or revamp initial ones. . He of course wants that to happen. I dont.

I also think there is a 2nd reason – to prevent inconvenient facts /stats from interrupting Conservative rhetoric and ideology over the policies they wish to implement…. but if Stephen comes out and says that openly, I'll be shocked.

http://intensedebate.com/people/MostlyCivil MostlyCivil

I swear, I've never seen a series of Government talking points so completely and methodically shredded. There was a time when a Prime Minister would admit defeat under such a continuously accurate barrage. Why, it seems like only yesterday…
http://www.ctv.ca/servlet/ArticleNews/story/CTVNe…

http://intensedebate.com/people/charlesh Charles H.

I'd suggest that Wells's Rights & Democracy articles/posts are an equivalent example of a methodical shredding of government talking points.
http://intensedebate.com/people/danby danby

I've passed kidney stones that bothered me less than that admission pained Stephen Harper.
I may not support his cause, but as a politician – Gilles Duceppe is damned good

http://intensedebate.com/people/DerekPearce DerekPearce

So in other words, the data we'll have in future will either come from compulsory record-keeping after all, or the data will corrupt.
http://intensedebate.com/people/Gaunilon Gaunilon

I just have to say, this article turned out to be a lot less exciting than the headline made it sound.

http://intensedebate.com/people/Sir_Francis Sir_Francis

Yeah. Where's the centrefold of Miss Swedish Bar Graph?
http://intensedebate.com/people/Crit_Reasoning Crit_Reasoning

The Scandinavian model doesn't seem to have much privacy. With all those data linkages, a revealing body of sensitive personal details can be stacked in a way that leaves very little to the imagination.
http://intensedebate.com/people/Halo_Override Halo_Override

Finally, an issue that can unite 49% of Canadians, give or take.

http://intensedebate.com/people/TJCook TJCook

Well, it's as Canadian as possible, under the circumstances.

http://intensedebate.com/people/Ricard_S_Argent Richard_S_Argent

The only Scandinavian product a conservative could ever buy:
http://www.ikea.com

Dave

But they don't sell vacuum pumps.

Anon 001

Harper has a super-secret way to ensure that voluntary data is just as good as mandatory data.

You'll just have to trust him, since he's an economist and a scholar of some standing and international acclaim.

The only reason he wants to make this change to a more faulty (but ideologically pure) data collection methodology is because he based his famous declarations of "there will be no deficit" and "if we were to have a recession, we would have had one by now" on the old census data.

BCer in Mtl

I thought he was also a nuclear reactor safety expert.

He's starting to remind me of the Bugs Bunny cartoon where Wile E. Coyote has business cards with "Genius" inscribed on them.

Jan

How long before he tales over the Bank of Canada? He must be having doubts about Mark Carney's loyalty about now.

http://intensedebate.com/people/danby danby

Do you remember when the Conservatives told everyone we would have to simply "trust them" that the original $3 billion of stimulus spending would be judiciously spent?
Have we received any account of that spending since then?

Uh -huh……
http://intensedebate.com/people/TJCook TJCook

Hey – he's also a "conservative", and all the media tells me he abhors deficit spending and big government.

Wascally Wabbit

Last time I looked – the provinces didn't do a census.
@Loraine Lamontagne – However, even though not one has a fully loaded data base of Personal Health information in a consolidated electronic form YET (They typically have claims data bases which are not the same thing) The Records in the future Health Data Bases will typically be referred to aa Electronic Health Records – EHR. The provinces do however have Reciprocal agreements between each and all – initially to permit insured persons visiting another province to get treatment as if they are back home (these are not all perfect arrangements) but because the new standards being implemented will be universal and international – they will work anywhere in Canada – and in theory – your information could be in a data base in – say – Kingston – but accessible – with the right security and permissions (consent) to a physician in Vancouver.
Same COULD be done with other data sets colected by governments – but the security and protocols get increasingly complex when data passes across provincial boundaries and especially out of the country.
Wascally Wabbit

Also – on the idea of a registration number mentioned by Aaron – the UK under Tony Blair and Gordon Brown were seriously considering issuing a national identity card – part of which purpose would have been for doing business with the government. David Cameron and Nick Clegg threw this into File 13 as one of their first actions after forming the coaltion there.
Ontarians may remember Mike Harris trying to do something similar in around 2000 with a Smart Card he was hoping to issue as an Access Card for all Ontario goverment services – but fortunately he managed to royally screw that up!

http://bigcitylib.blogspot.com bigcitylib

Right, which is why at the moment the U.K. census replacement initiative doesn't make a lot of sense. They are talking about imitating the Slavic technique without an ID card. Nobody seems to have said how that is supposed to work.

practical mom

Supposedly they will use credit information in some way.
BCer in Mtl

Chips embedded under the skin!

Dave

Someone told me that that's what They were really doing under the cover of "H1N1 vaccinations". And he's a good Conservative, whose word I would never doubt.

http://intensedebate.com/people/Dennis_F Dennis_F

Why lookie here. I asked the same question days ago, and was pilloried for it by the usual suspects.Yes, why did the head of Statistics Canada wait so long to resign? The usual suspects, unsurprisingly, treated him like some kind of principled hero, while continuing to mercilessly bash Minister Clement (who, by the way, is an actual hero, but that's another story, of course).

http://intensedebate.com/people/Geiseric Geiseric

If we are to expect public servants to "implement faithfully" we must expect their Ministers to answer for their own decisions.

He quit last week because that's when Clement the Coward dragged him into it.

I can't believe this crap needs to be spelled out. For that, I blame the Loyal Opposition. They should have what's left of Clement's gonads in a jar already.

http://intensedebate.com/people/Dennis_F Dennis_F

No, he specifically cited his opposition to the voluntary survey as his reason to quit.

You're suggesting that he quit over personal anger? That's odd.

Again, I'm no sure why there's so much anger and vitriol over this issue. If it's supposed to be about science, then why act so emotional and ideological?

John D

No, he specifically cited his opposition to the voluntary survey as his reason to quit.

No he did not.

http://intensedebate.com/people/Dennis_F Dennis_F

Hmm. Let's see:

I want to take this opportunity to comment on a technical statistical issue which has become the subject of media discussion. This relates to the question of whether a voluntary survey can become a substitute for a mandatory census.

It can not.

Under the circumstances, I have tendered my resignation to the Prime Minister.
http://intensedebate.com/people/TJCook TJCook

I can't believe I'm wasting my time discussing anything of substance with Stephen Harper's Talking Points Fax Machine, but that quote specifically says that the man could not agree with the science, as described by the minister.

It's one thing for Clement to make a decision to sell out the quality of the data. It's another thing to claim that the quality would be unaffected.

But then Clement, under heavy fire, implied that StatsCan had endorsed (or even suggested!) this decision. At that point, it became about Sheikh's credibility as a statistician. And he resigned.

Why did Sheikh wait so long to resign? Because he wasn't dragged into the mess until quite lately. By Clement.
http://intensedebate.com/people/Dennis_F Dennis_F

No, the same people who swear by things like dissent, civility, and reason turn around and cringe at the thought that someone might have a very valid question about a position that they have taken.

So, the Stats chief did not resign when the decision to go with the voluntary survey was made, nor did he resign when he helped the Tory government develop and implement that policy. No, he only resigned when he might have felt insulted by the way the minister characterized his involvement, or how it could be interpreted. That's a fascinating theory.

You know, some of you might have better luck on this issue if you spent lest time characterizing and mocking opponents and more time dealing with the issues raised. Just saying.
http://intensedebate.com/people/Thwim Thwim

Nobody said it wasn't a valid question. Just one that's already been answered the umpteen times it's been asked around here already. So long as it was the Minister's responsibility (gee, who was it claiming that?) then Shiekh perfomed as a faithful public servant, providing answers to Clement's questions.

When the Minister attempted to put the responsibility on him for the Minister's decision, he resigned.
http://intensedebate.com/people/TJCook TJCook

"You know, some of you might have better luck on this issue if you spent lest time characterizing and mocking opponents and more time dealing with the issues raised."

Dennis_F, you are priceless. Don't ever change.
Dave

By your last statement, I take it you were never involved in the ten-percenter program?

http://intensedebate.com/people/Stewart_Smith Stewart_Smith

He called a "town hall" meeting about 24 hours after Clement started lying, and then resigned about 48 hours later.

You should be pleased there was a bureaucrat willing to let the elected government call the shots, he simply was not willing to let them lie about his involvement.

I agree Clement is a hero for diving into the water.

http://intensedebate.com/people/Dennis_F Dennis_F

You're suggesting that he resigned over personal anger, rather than because of what he specifically stated on his own resignation letter?

Again, why didn't he resign weeks or months ago, if he was truly opposed to the voluntary survey, yet still obliged to give the minister viable options for implementing it?

Nobody here seems to want to answer that question. Maybe I'm starting to understand why.

http://intensedebate.com/people/Stewart_Smith Stewart_Smith

Personal anger, no
Personal integrity, yes

You are trying to spin the reason for the resignation. It is posted here for others
http://www.cbc.ca/politics/insidepolitics/2010/07…

http://intensedebate.com/people/Dennis_F Dennis_F

Sigh. You're just proving my point for me. In yet greater detail, he cites his opposition to the voluntary survey. And, yet again, why didn't he do this a long time ago? Why is this question so hard to understand or answer for some of you?
http://intensedebate.com/people/Thwim Thwim

No, he doesn't cite his opposition, he cites the facts.

He then resigns because the Minister attributed the opposite of those facts as if they were endorsed by him.

http://intensedebate.com/people/LynnTO LynnTO

It is curious as to why he'd wait this long, but (and I'm speculating) perhaps he thought he would be more effective at changing the government's mind as the standing head of StatsCan, rather than the former head of said organization? Or, perhaps he hadn't quite made up his mind about what issues would constitute his line in the sand? Some people never have to draw that line, others make it routine…again, speculating, but hey, it's possible.

As for Clement, his heroism speaks to his person, not his ministry. His personal efforts this weekend are laudible. His work as minister? Less so.

http://intensedebate.com/people/Dennis_F Dennis_F

You're right. You are speculating. So let me do some of my own. How about he didn't want his own role in developing the voluntary survey exposed, or he quit at precisely the time that it was most viable to do so in terms of publicity; in terms of being treated as a hero by the usual suspects?

If we're focusing on principle alone, wouldn't the right time to resign have been a lot sooner than now?

John D

Keep trying to push this point, perhaps someone will buy it.

http://intensedebate.com/people/Stewart_Smith Stewart_Smith

Next thing, he will be trying to sell us on the virtues of Obama.
http://intensedebate.com/people/Stewart_Smith Stewart_Smith

Oh yes found it. http://www2.macleans.ca/2010/07/14/medium-and-mes…

For those who don't want to look through the comments:

Dennis starts off taking about political leaders and then goes on
"Then the good ones who actually win elections go onto run a tighter ship, well, because they're now running a country. For example, Obama went for months without even holding a press conference."
spin Denni spin
http://intensedebate.com/people/Dennis_F Dennis_F

Wow. You can't defend your position on the census, so you bring up this useless line of attack yet again. I didn't realize that I could produce such desperation and silliness from the very same people who consider themselves serious defenders of an at-the-threat-of-jail census about plumbing and bedrooms!
http://intensedebate.com/people/Dennis_F Dennis_F

For crying out loud. Then why can't some of you zombies rebut it? Stop attacking people for disagreeing with you, and start addressing their comments. Or is it that you can't? Is it that I'm right? Is it that even simple questions about this census and other issues simply evoke cheap shots from you? Then you turn around and claim it's about science and principle. Really.
http://intensedebate.com/people/doug_rogers doug_rogers

How about making an argument that isn't a fantasy?
http://intensedebate.com/people/Dennis_F Dennis_F

It's a "fantasy" to ask why the stats chief didn't resign many weeks ago, if it was based on a principled stance against the voluntary census? And the best theory that many of you geniuses can come up with is that he didn't like how the minister was depicting his part in instituting the long census, which he most certainly would have done over the course of the last many weeks.

For people who like to think you stand for science and reason, you sure don't put your money where you mouth is.

In fact, you let me walk all over you.

Oh wait, but you can click thumbs down on my posts! Congrats.
hosertohoosier

1. Why resign before the decision had been announced? This would preclude the government to reversing course, or adopting a compromise.
2. In order for a resignation to impact debate it needs to happen when a public debate is going on. If Munir had resigned months ago nobody would have cared, and his resignation would have been pointless.
3. Clement made misleading statements about Stats Canada. Being misrepresented is pretty good grounds to resign.
http://intensedebate.com/people/Dennis_F Dennis_F

This would preclude the government to reversing course, or adopting a compromise.

Don't quite understand that one.

In order for a resignation to impact debate it needs to happen when a public debate is going on. If Munir had resigned months ago nobody would have cared, and his resignation would have been pointless.

So then you acknowledge that this wasn't about principle but about public relations, which is what I originally suggested?

Clement made misleading statements about Stats Canada. Being misrepresented is pretty good grounds to resign.

Being misrepresented is pretty good ground to resign? Really?

Wasn't it the former stats chief that recommended resignation long before such statements were made?

In fact, doesn't that fact pretty much shoot down this ongoing theory from many of you?

http://intensedebate.com/people/E_B_ E_B_

OK. I am willing to acknowledge that you have every right to offer your own speculation as a plausible reason for his resignation.

However, if I have to choose between your speculation, and others offered, I am quite prepared to look on yours as the least plausible. From all accounts we have heard to date, Mr. Shiekh was caught between a rock and a hard place. So far I am content to believe that he was keeping an oath and trying to work within the parameters of his job as a faithful public servant, until his minister made the situation absolutely untenable.

http://intensedebate.com/people/Dennis_F Dennis_F

Actually, I'm quite prepared to look at your theory as the least plausible, especially since it's been repeated over and over again in this thread, and it's as unconvincing to me the first time it's been stated as the last.

Again, if the Stats chief was so opposed to the voluntary census, and considered it to be an affront to credible information gathering, why in the world didn't he resign way back when the policy was first started, instead of helping the government along with it, in one way or another?

That he finally decided to do so because of how Tony Clement's comments might have made him look seems pretty thin to me. But, hey, if it helps buttress a continuing ideological campaign against this government, by all means.

Jan

Ok everyone – let's have a vote – who is the shameless self-promoter – Clement or Sheikh?

http://intensedebate.com/people/Dennis_F Dennis_F

Yes, the old Bouque troll wants to have a vote rather than actually answer the question. What is it with some of you? Don't you ever debate people who actually disagree with you? Holy cow.

Olaf

As a deputy minister, Mr. Sheikh was responsibility (sic) for providing the minister…

More than a minister or elected official (sic), the chief statistician is be (sic) considerably more aware of the potential impact

Erg. We need to get these people the version of Microsoft Word that highlights blatant grammatical errors. I think it's '94.

http://intensedebate.com/people/Dennis_F Dennis_F

In other words, you don't have an actual substantive response to her comments.

And who are "these people" again?

http://intensedebate.com/people/Sir_Francis Sir_Francis

…you don't have an actual substantive response to her comments…

I think Olaf would like to be able to read her comments without needing to mentally edit the ruddy things in the process.

Besides, where's your sense of CPC solidarity, Dennis? If Con HQ finds out about your unwarranted attack on Olaf, they're very likely to take back that official framed glossy 8" x 10" of Dear Leader you've got nailed up over the bed.

Olaf

I resent the subtle insinuation, Sir Francis.
http://intensedebate.com/people/Sir_Francis Sir_Francis

Heh. "Subtle"… ;)

But, really—who has time for subtlety in the globalised, dynamic, increasingly competitive, synergies-across-multiple-delivery-platforms world we live in, Olaf?
http://intensedebate.com/people/Dennis_F Dennis_F

Give me a break. Two minor errors hardly make it illegible.

Who cares about CPC solidarity? I care about the truth. You?

Is this really the best you have?

Olaf

I wasn't attempting one, on the grounds that I don't really care. Just pointing out that a gradeschool proof reader would have been nice.

http://intensedebate.com/people/Dennis_F Dennis_F

You cared enough to read the piece and respond to it? Why not rebut its substance?
Olaf

Dennis, because I don't care to – my responses do not have to fit the mold of your choosing. The most interesting part about it, to me, were the numerous and blatant grammatical errors. I responded as such.
http://intensedebate.com/people/Dennis_F Dennis_F

Let's see. You read the document carefully enough to spot two errors in it, and to comment about it, but not the substance.

I'm sorry, but I believe the latter to be true because you have no response. Nobody here does. Nobody here can explain why this hero of yours didn't do the right thing months ago, instead of a few days ago for ostensibly public relations reasons.
Olaf

I've yet to be convinced as to why I should care about the substantive format with which you think my response should be consistent.
http://intensedebate.com/people/Thwim Thwim

Because the worst thing for a troll is you don't care about him.

http://intensedebate.com/people/TJCook TJCook

"We need to get these people the version of Microsoft Word that highlights blatant grammatical errors…"

I hear Word 2010 highlights blatant logic errors, but maybe I'm hoping for too much from Microsoft.

http://intensedebate.com/people/Sir_Francis Sir_Francis

Minister Clement (who, by the way, is an actual hero, but that's another story…)…

…an apocryphal one, to be precise.

http://intensedebate.com/people/Dennis_F Dennis_F

You know, when I make accusations, I usually back them up.

http://intensedebate.com/people/Sir_Francis Sir_Francis

No you don't.

http://intensedebate.com/people/Dennis_F Dennis_F

There you go again!

I'd actually be ashamed of myself if I couldn't justify what I said on here with some facts, evidence, or logic. You obviously don't feel a need to abide by that same standard. Thanks.
http://intensedebate.com/people/E_B_ E_B_

…laughing…
http://intensedebate.com/people/Dennis_F Dennis_F

Because you're not capable of much more. Thanks for showing up. lol. Next.
http://intensedebate.com/people/Sir_Francis Sir_Francis

"…and your little dog, too!"
http://intensedebate.com/people/Halo_Override Halo_Override

Ding!

BCer in Mtl

Fine, give the 'actual hero' a medal; while we're at it give Stockwell Day a brain and Vic Toews a heart, we should then be back in Kansas in no time.

http://intensedebate.com/people/Dennis_F Dennis_F

Many of you seem to take politics personally. Is it a substitute for religion or something? Just wondering.

BCer in Mtl

Even by your standards that makes no sense. Not sure how one takes a throwaway line meant for amusement as a sign of taking anything seriously, even less the place it holds in one's psyche. Sad, really.

http://intensedebate.com/people/Dennis_F Dennis_F

You personally mocked politicians with whom you seem to disagree. Then you claim it's a "throwaway" line, and that I"m "sad" to respond in the way I did, which is, again, a personalized characterization. Fascinating.
Jan

Great thread hijack, Dennis.
http://intensedebate.com/people/Dennis_F Dennis_F

I asked a question that numerous leftists on here can't answer. You resorted, yet again, to your old leftist troll routine from your Bourque days.

Seriously, why is it so hard for so many of you to answer simple questions about this census. Yet you then turn around and act as if you're smarter than anyone who disagrees with you.

Well, the others act like they're smarter. "Jan" just tries to keep her head above water and hopes nobody notices.
Jan

And you really need a new routine "Dennis_F".
http://intensedebate.com/people/Dennis_F Dennis_F

Why? I quite enjoy shooting down this continuing nonsense of yours with ease. Why would I want to stop that?

Standing By

So, the issue here isn't the massive damage that will result from wrecking the census, or Harper's unilateral and dictatorial decision-making, or the massive opposition to these changes from a wide range of interests and experts. Nope, the real issue is the timing of the resignation of the Chief Statistician.

Do let us know when you get it sorted out.

http://intensedebate.com/people/bergkamp bergkamp

"The residents (citizens and non-citizens alike) in these countries are obliged to provide this information. All interactions with the state (health, education, taxation, the justice system, migration) are recorded in these data bases. Is this less intrusive, and should it be held up as an alternative?"

This is what happens here already. It sounds like Scandinavian governments are more efficient with their info – all interactions with the state are recorded in data bases here as well but our myriad levels of governments and quangos are incapable of sharing data with one another.

Sean

It's not always a case of being incapable. Do you really want some stats official having access to your health file? If a breach occurs, it is a good idea to have everything from your birth registration, to your taxes, to your driver's licence, to address, to occupation, etc., all linked together? Canada has robust protections for individual privacy that tend to prevent such schemes on purpose.

I'm kind of surprised you stand in admiration of such efficiencies. I know Denmark is often ranked very low in terms of protecting individual privacy (for number of reasons, their record keeping among them). It seems to me keeping data strictly protected and compartmentalized for dedicated uses does a lot more to keep goverment and other agencies in check.

Also, I don't believe countries like Sweden and Denmark have provinical/state levels of government with the same power and autonomy as Canadian provinces – which makes it easier for them and harder for us to coordinate that sort of thing (if we wanted to – I'm not in favour of it).

http://intensedebate.com/people/Halo_Override Halo_Override

The federation point is key to this comparison being not so great, imnsho.

http://intensedebate.com/people/LynnTO LynnTO

Someone was clearly thinking farther ahead in those states than has happened here: to link up our databases, to provide all the information that the longform Census asks in one, would be a massively costly endeavor at this stage of the game. (At any rate, more than the additional $30-something million it's going to cost to run a voluntary household survey).

All this besides, I think by collecting the information all at once (so that it's linked in the same document) and then being able to compare it to independent topic-specific databases has a value. I'm not sure how efficient it is, but I think there's an argument to be made there.

http://intensedebate.com/people/SeanStok Sean

You pretty need a centralized databank, for all practical purposes. Trying to match up data from independent databases – even with general agreement to do so – wouldn't replicate the sort of detailed and comprehensive individual files kept by countries like Sweden and Denmark.

practical mom

Then the government should take all the necessary steps to allow the data to be fully shared before getting rid of the mandatory long form. I have not heard any mention that they ever intend to go down this road.
http://intensedebate.com/people/Stewart_Smith Stewart_Smith

Good gawd bergkamp… they are incapable because they are expressly forbidden by law not because they are incompetent. In Canada, the Privacy Act precludes the government from using any information for a purpose other than that for which is was collected for. It also allows you to review the information the government has to ensure its accuracy.
http://laws.justice.gc.ca/eng/P-21/index.html

see sections 7&8

Hint 8 has the exceptions to my statement above.
Sigh

From 2004: http://www.hackcanada.com/canadian/freedom/canada…

Sigh

Sigh

"Canada's federal Privacy Commissioner, Bruce Phillips, has revealed a massive computerized database that contains volumes of personal data on 33.7 million Canadian's living and dead. The database was started fifteen years ago by the Office of Employment and Immigration and is used to research and evaluate the effectiveness of the federal employment insurance program. The database contains information regarding tax returns, child tax benefits, provincial and municipal welfare files, federal jobs, job training and other information. There are proposals to expand the database to include additional data on social assistance recipients from provinces and territories, the Canada Student Loan Program, the Canada Pension Plan and Old Age Security Program."

Sigh

"The government's pre-eminent statistical agency, Statistics Canada, operates under very strict legislation–complete with penalties–to protect the personal data it gathers for research and statistics. It cannot share, sell, or use this information for operational purposes. No such walls protect the HRDC research databases."

http://intensedebate.com/people/Sir_Francis Sir_Francis

Shorter CPC:

"Scandinavians are irrelevant commie Euro-weenies, and Canadians should become even more like them than we already are".

http://intensedebate.com/people/SeanStok Sean

Such are the perils of scanning Wikipedia on the fly for talking points.

Marlene Stobbart

IMHO there has been too much gathering of information on private individuals. The lengthy census is not required – just more expense.
Little by little we are losing freedoms that our forefathers came for when they came to Canada, once Kanuk.

http://intensedebate.com/people/SeanStok Sean

"Little by little we are losing freedoms that our forefathers came for when they came to Canada."

Actually, they came for the beaver. Others came later for land to farm on.

Unless you're talking about UE Loyalists (who were loyal to the crown, so not exactly looking for unbridled freedom), black migrants via the underground railroad, or some segments of immigrants over the years, the 'freedom seekers' model doesn't really apply here like it does in the US.
Dave

Oh, so you're worried about the expense?

hosertohoosier

The idea of Scandinavia as some sort of far left commieland is rather out of date. Scandinavians have adopted a number of free market reforms, and reduced the size of government since the 90's. Indeed, lets look at government spending as a % of GDP – a reasonable metric of "big government".

Sweden 2008: 51.8%
UK 2008: 47.5%
Netherlands 2008: 45.9%
Norway 2008: 40%
Canada 2008: 39.7%
USA 2008: 38.8%

These are not massive differences, and Norway is actually below the OECD average of 41.4%. Sweden is high, but not the highest among industrialized countries (Iceland wins that distinction, and France is ahead of Sweden too), and has reduced spending from 70% of GDP in 1993.

practical mom

Interesting numbers, thanks.

Maybe the Scandinavian countries have been able to reduce the size of government because they got rid of the Census. Sfter spending years building mandatory registers, they are able to efficiently mine the data bases for really good data to base decisions on. Lees waste! Looks like it is paying off.

Dave

Scandinavia: Preserving Your Privacy By Mining Your Data.

practical mom

No one said their method preserved personal privacy. My point, tongue in cheek, was that it might be highly efficient while being highly intrusive

The government keeps bringing them up as an example of countries who have done away with the census altogether – not just a mandatory long form. No one would be comparing them to Canada's census if the government had not brought them up.

http://twitter.com/pato31 @pato31

The problem I see with some comments on this thread is that "Dennis_F" believes that if he uses his finger to hide the answers in the replies to his questions, he can effectively deny that anybody has actually answered them.

He then uses his angry tone and whines a little more about how it is just such a travesty that nobody understands him. Poor boy, he's just a tortured soul ain't he?

BCer in Mtl

Don't knock him, Dennis, hollinm and jarrid are three of the main reasons I read these boards. They have it all: lack of logic, sneering, inability to digest answers that they asked for but don't agree with. Mind you, some on the other side are amusing in similar fashion. But the CPC trolls/shills are the most adorable in that they are completely un-self aware. They remind me of Oscar from 'Corner Gas'.

http://twitter.com/pato31 @pato31

I see it on both sides as well, but the effort on this particular thread by Dennis_F has been hmmm… especially special?

BCer in Mtl

Well, when you're handed crappy talking points, what else can you do?

Maybe they need to go with the 'just visiting' angle on former StatsCan heads.

Dave

Wait – wouldn't anyone advocating replacing the traditional census with some kind of Scandinavian meta-tracker ("Storebror"?) basically be calling for Canada to become – how should I put this? – some kind of a Northern European welfare state in the worst sense of the term?