Beyond The Commons

Aaron Wherry covers all the goings-on in and around Parliament Hill. Follow Aaron on Twitter: @aaronwherry

Categories: Beyond The Commons, Capital Read

Your National Household Survey

by Aaron Wherry on Tuesday, July 27, 2010 3:05pm - 0 Comments

The new NHS is now online.

Mr. Clement’s lamented questions about the number of bedrooms, what time you leave for work and whether your home is in need of repair are all included.

Tags: census, National Household Survey, NHS, Statistics Canada, Tony Clement

More by Aaron Wherry

jarrid

Funny thing is that the only time the left/lib types get hot to trot about jailing people, it's for things like failing to answer dumb questions on a census form or failing to register the rifle a farmer uses to hunt ducks.

Otherwise they think jail is generally a bad thing. Go figure.

John D

Keep trotting out the jail line. it's working – no really, you have everyone convinced.

http://intensedebate.com/people/charlesh Charles H.

I'd prefer if somebody thought to start trotting out a chorus line. At least then I'd be entertained by the repetition.

http://intensedebate.com/people/LynnTO LynnTO

One
Census miscalculation
Puts ministers and nerds at odds…

New
Methodology makes
Everyone all go nuts…

(et cetera.)

http://intensedebate.com/people/McC_ McC_

"Puts ministers and nerds at odds… " At last I understand what this is all about, Clement is throwing his fellow nerds under the bus to try and prove his cred to the 'cool kids'… thanks LynnTO!

McC_

hey jarrid, do you really know anyone who hunts ducks with a rifle? that sounds really difficult!
Jan

The jail threat can be removed by the Cnservative government any time. Sometimes the easiest solutions are the best ones. Unless there's another agenda…
http://dredtory.blogspot.com/ Sir_Francis

Hey look! Jarrid’s a spammer…

I believe Macleans has an anti-spam policy, Jarrid (if not, it should have). This is a cut-and-paste repost—very poor form on your part and, incidentally, yet another devastating blow to your already threadbare credibility.

http://intensedebate.com/people/TwoYen TwoYen

If Macleans' had an anti-spam policy, Aaron would have to stop posting 150 blogs per day on the census issue. This is a real issue, but the fixation on one issue over all others is remarkable.

http://intensedebate.com/people/Sir_Francis Sir_Francis

It's late July in Ottawa, TwoYen. Which tree-caught cat would you like Aaron to write about? The one in Nepean, or the one in Barrhaven?

Anyhoo—getting back to Jarrid's pathetic spam post…
jarrid

Two Yen, complaining to Sir Francis about people's fixation on one issue won't get you very far.

Fixation is Sir Francis' middle name. Or perhaps it's better described as monomania.

http://intensedebate.com/people/Sir_Francis Sir_Francis

Wow. Not even an apology. The descent continues…

jarrid

Poor Sir Francis, reduced to playing schoolroom monitor.

Some people never grow up.

http://intensedebate.com/people/Sir_Francis Sir_Francis

Guys like Jarrid resent being called "Conbots", yet they have the nerve to spam.

Given the shamelessness of it all, one would like to be able to say something like, "He's got some balls," or "He's got some guts", but, of course—for obvious reasons—one can't.

http://intensedebate.com/people/NotStephen Not Stephen Colbert

You used to be funny. What happened to you, man?

jarrid

Or is someone losing there sense of humour.

http://intensedebate.com/people/NotStephen Not Stephen Colbert

I suspect that many people are.

Emily

Well he was lamenting them because as a minister he'd have seen a copy before anyone else.

It's still anybody's guess as to why this would be considered intrusive or insulting though.
http://bigcitylib.blogspot.com bigcitylib

I wouldn't usually self-link, but Stockwell Day brings the stupid up a notch:
http://bigcitylib.blogspot.com/2010/07/stockwell-…

Emily

AHAHAHAHAHA that's priceless.

Stock Day is a world of stupid all by himself.
bergkamp

"I wouldn't usually self-link …. "

Don't know why you started now when you can't be bothered to explain yourself.

For those of us who don't read your blog everyday and know what you think, you believe it is correct for State to force jews, or anyone else for that matter, to state their religion regardless of whether they want to or not?

http://bigcitylib.blogspot.com bigcitylib

What Stock says is that the long-form forces your Jewish neighbor to reveal her Jewishness to a census data end user.

And yes I think the long-form should remain mandatory.

bergkamp

"Do you think it is right that you can threaten your neighbour with jail time if she doesn't tell you if she has mental issues or not? Or who does what chores in the house?

Or whether she is a Jew or not? Don't you find that one even a little bit chilling?

And how do you think my grandkids feel (their grandparents are Asian) when you tell them in the long form that it's not good enough for them to just say they're 'Canadian'? " Stockwell Day, Kelowna News

The State represents, me, you, emily, sourstud, when The State sends it bully-boys around to someone's house and 'encourages' them to complete the census, than I think it is accurate to write that neighbours demand info from neighbours.

http://bigcitylib.blogspot.com bigcitylib

Stock's argument here is pure BS.
http://bigcitylib.blogspot.com bigcitylib

To expand:

Users of census data can't find out anything about their neighbor. Its all aggregated. In fact, if the sub-tract level data for a particular area does let you make guesses as to the individuals in the sub-tract, Stats Canada won't let you see it. Also, this information is not free. At least two falsehoods in under 50 words.
http://intensedebate.com/people/charlesh Charles H.

Nice of you to do a fuller quote of Stock and show that he once again doesn't know what he's talking about.

"And how do you think my grandkids feel (their grandparents are Asian) when you tell them in the long form that it's not good enough for them to just say they're 'Canadian'?"

Care to make a guess as to what the most popular single response to the ethnic origin question is?
http://intensedebate.com/people/TwoYen TwoYen

Stockwell Day is wrong if he is referring to concerns that Statistics Canada might release private information to neighbours. Stats Can has pretty good safeguards in place. However, he has a point when it comes to problems in the census in the way it asks one to define one's religion or ethnicity, especially in the case of mixed ethnic or religious origins. I hope Stats Can improves the wording on future forms.
Emily

Is that something you feel you have to hide??

What is everyone so guilty about anyway?
http://intensedebate.com/people/lgarvin lgarvin

If you've got nothing to hide, why do you hide your identity?

Feeling a little guilty about something, "Emily"?
http://intensedebate.com/people/TwoYen TwoYen

Emily,
Your suggestion is offensive. I am unaware of anyone who has something to hide.

I was referring to the point made by Stockwell Day in which his grandkids were unable to accurately describe their own background. In the case of many Canadians, they don't know the composition of their ethnic background and simply think of themselves as "Canadian" The forms also make it difficult for those whose children are of mixed race to accurately describe it. Work needs to be done by Stas Can to make it easier to be accurate in describing one's ethnicity. I said nothing about hiding it.
http://intensedebate.com/people/Ricard_S_Argent Richard_S_Argent

Yeah, I tend to agree with you. We're hitting a point where these types of designations become somewhat difficult to pinpoint.

I suppose most people either say whichever heritage they most readily identify with or if they don't really favour one heritage over the other just write in "Canadian"
http://intensedebate.com/people/TwoYen TwoYen

RSA,
Yes, exactly. That was my point. It usually comes down to deciding which of a number of heritages one identifies with most closely. That's why many just say Canadian.
http://intensedebate.com/people/Ricard_S_Argent Richard_S_Argent

And which heritage a person identifies with most closely is something I find endlessly fascinating…but is not really germane to the discussion at hand :)

I think a good solution might be to have a space for mixed heritage and the ability to state which heritages those are (or leave it blank if wanted. I would think that the unspecified "mixed heritage" designation would be satisfactory for the statisticians.
http://intensedebate.com/people/Jenn_ Jenn_

But of course this is a debate about a specific question, anyway. And as we all know, the government of the day gets the final decision on that.
http://intensedebate.com/people/Halo_Override Halo_Override

Doris is either lying or stupid, though I don't preclude the possibility of both. If you want to ride on the back of his jetski, that's your right, I guess, but I really don't see the appeal.
http://intensedebate.com/people/Jenn_ Jenn_

"if she doesn't tell you "

The chance of a census data collector working in his/her own neighbourhood is slim to none. So, what were you saying in defence of Stockwell?

Jan

I was wondering how they could start calling Liberals anti-semitic. Brilliant bergkamp. You have really moved this along.
McC_

"force jews, or anyone else for that matter, to state their religion regardless of whether they want to or not" it's a write-in box, if one doesn't want to state her/his religion s/he can mark "no religion" or write "none of your business" or "your mother" or (gasp!) "JEDI"

McC_

Not that I'm defending the presence of question 22 in the survey. The merit of any one question can be debated, and if Canadians find them inappropriate, then by all means remove them; but making their mere presence (seasoned with some vague alusions to fascism) the excuse for compromising the whole excercise (at greater effort and cost) is just bad policymaking.

http://intensedebate.com/people/Ricard_S_Argent Richard_S_Argent

Don't bother with jwl/jolyon/bergkamp (my he certainly does get banned a lot :). Here's what he told me about the census last week:

"Census is one way government implements its learned helplessness agenda. Government wants everyone to be dependent on it, and others, and make them think they are incapable of looking after themselves.
Is it any surprise the well known bolshie PM Trudeau introduced the long form? Trudeau, and others of his ilk, want to destroy the individual and make us dependent on government."

When a man has THAT as his starting point – you might as well comes to terms with the fact that he's not going to be swayed by your argument ;)
McC_

bergkamp is jolyon? I had no idea. It's so hard to keep track when folk change their handles so often!
http://intensedebate.com/people/Ricard_S_Argent Richard_S_Argent

Dennis Bergkamp was a star striker for Arsenal FC in the late '90s early '00s- jolyon's avatar was the Arsenal logo. He got banned after one extremely nasty weekend 'round the time that the Conservatives left abortion access off their maternal health initiative.

Jolyon is a pretty strident Pro-Lifer.

Two days later "bergkamp" appeared.
bergkamp

"When a man has THAT as his starting point …. "

Big government has destroyed bonds between people and their societies. Government is responsible for fixing all of life's ills, we are being taught we can't do things for ourselves, let the government fix it. We no longer have to worry about others and can just focus on our own mundane lives.

I am not hiding, if you click on intense debate I say who I was formerly. I was just bored of being jolyon so I thought I would switch to my first footballing hero, Dennis Bergkamp.

There's only one Dennis Bergkamp …
Walking along …
Singing this song …
Walking in a Bergkamp Wonderland ….
http://intensedebate.com/people/Ricard_S_Argent Richard_S_Argent

"Big government has destroyed bonds between people and their societies."

As luck would have it, I'm actually in the process of rereading Engels' "The Condition of the Working Class in England in 1844". You're absolutely right – prior to the expansion of the social safety net in the post WWII boom people REALLY looked out for one another!
Emily

Yeah, kids down the mines and up the chimneys.
http://intensedebate.com/people/bergkamp bergkamp

"You're absolutely right – prior to the expansion of the social safety net in the post WWII boom people REALLY looked out for one another! "

They did and they still do. The natural state of man is nasty, brutish and short but humans are generous and look out for one another as best they can. Orphanages, hospitals, food banks … etc. all started privately and then State took over their functions.
http://intensedebate.com/people/Ricard_S_Argent Richard_S_Argent

Yep, you're absolutely right – as everybody knows, the days of private charities are long gone, bullied out of the way by those brutes in government.

I mean, just look at how much worse Canadians are off now:
http://www40.statcan.ca/l01/cst01/health26-eng.ht…
http://intensedebate.com/people/bergkamp bergkamp

And how persuasive do you think you are when using father of communism as a source for anything when Engels and his pal created the single most destructive and murderous ideology man has invented so far.
http://intensedebate.com/people/Ricard_S_Argent Richard_S_Argent

Well actually, I ALSO just finished rereading The Grapes of Wrath by Steinbeck. Again, I was gobsmacked by how people from every strata of society really took care of one another when the chips were down.

(Honestly though, if you took your ideological blinders off and gave it a chance you'd find that the book I referenced is actually a fantastic historical document)
http://intensedebate.com/people/Ricard_S_Argent Richard_S_Argent

And next up on the docket is Dickens' Tale of Two Cities. I'm sure I'm also going to be amazed by the level of cooperation amongst the citizens of London prior to the advent of mass politics and near universal male suffrage.
Emily

Government is something all human societies have needed and wanted. From original tribes to today.

It's a way of looking out for each other when a pie delivered to the door isn't possible or sufficient.

http://intensedebate.com/people/sourstud sourstud

Since everybody is so in favour of filling out surveys, perhaps the government should start requiring patients to fill out a form when getting an abortion. It would be immensely helpful in making decisions related to public health and education. Who's with me?

http://intensedebate.com/people/McC_ McC_

don't you usually fill out a form when you go to a medical clinic of some kind?

http://intensedebate.com/people/Halo_Override Halo_Override

Don't harsh his buzz, man.

http://intensedebate.com/people/Ottawa_Centrist Ottawa_Centrist

They already do.

Charles H.

I'd assume it depends on when and where, in that I'd question whether private clinics send their info to the government.

http://intensedebate.com/people/Ottawa_Centrist Ottawa_Centrist

Where ever the info may exist, it probably has no where near the same level of protection as census information.

Charles H.

Likely.

On a tangent: do you think we can get some of the StatsCan people to transfer over to CSIS? Show them how to properly ensure that private data stays private.
http://intensedebate.com/people/Ottawa_Centrist Ottawa_Centrist

Hmm, good question. They may be required to mash together all kinds of databases however, like they do in countries that have or are eliminating the census.

To fight Big Brother, you must create Bigger Brother.

inge

The questions that Clement and company are now finding so offensive are those that the government in fact approved, since the government signs off on all the questions. Furthermore, as mentioned elsewhere, the government makes the laws regarfing consequences for not completing the census. So they can do away with the jail time.

http://intensedebate.com/people/McC_ McC_

"So they can do away with the jail time" but that would require amending the legislation, and in this minority Parliament where the lesser three parties are all posing to get tough on census crime, what are the chances of those amendments getting through? It's not as if the Government could just tack the change on to any old bill, and call it a confidence measure, and…

RayK

But what about his question about how amny toilets you have? Was that on the new census?

http://intensedebate.com/people/Halo_Override Halo_Override

I can no longer stand the conspiracy of silence on the toilet issue here in Canada. The last couple of weeks, so many references to toilets have been dropped by the government and its supporters that I'm absolutely fixated now.

If they don't add toilet questions to the new and improved census, I'm moving to Germany.