Deux Maudits Anglais

Deux Maudits Anglais

Martin Patriquin and Philippe Gohier dissect the latest out of Quebec. Follow Philippe on Twitter: @pgohier

If you have neither the facts nor the law, pound the table

by Philippe Gohier on Tuesday, August 3, 2010 7:17pm - 0 Comments

Stockwell Day held a press conference Tuesday to talk about the economy and the belt-tightening efforts that are apparently underway in Ottawa. Somehow, this got derailed into a discussion about crime rates—both real and imagined. Witness the rhetorical carnage that results when facts clash with ideology:

The crime rate per thousand, though it has gone down, thankfully, and I think some of that is because of the large amount of resources we’ve put into some areas of preventative criminal justice issues — for instance, targeting individuals at risk, families at risk, communities at risk — there’s been a lot of resources put into preventative programs there.  When you still go back and do crime rate comparisons going back even as much as 40 years, you still see that our crimes per thousand of population are very high, still much higher than they were back as reported in the ‘60s.

Here, in a nutshell, is the bind in which the government finds itself when proposing stiffer sentences at the same time as crime rates are dropping. The harsher sentences have to be justified: “We’re very concerned about the increase in the amount of unreported crimes that surveys clearly show are happening.” But there’s credit to be taken for the very decline that threatens to make those stiffer sentences anachonistic: “I think some of that is because of the large amount of resources we’ve put into some areas of preventative criminal justice issues.”

The solution, it appears, is to be sufficiently vague in recalling the crime rate of days past: “…do crime rate comparisons going back even as much as 40 years, you still see that our crimes per thousand of population are very high, still much higher than they were back as reported in the ‘60s.” Well, if we take murder for example, it’s not clear that’s true. The homicide rate, as the Ottawa Citizen‘s Glen McGregor has helpfully put into a chart, is in fact roughly the same as it was 40 years ago, and is down sharply from its mid-70s peak.

But then, as Day points out, that’s the problem with crime data—it’s based on voluntary (*ahem*) reports :

One statistic of many that concerns us is the amount of crimes that go unreported.  For whatever reasons, people simply are not reporting.  Those numbers are alarming and it shows that we can’t take a liberal view to crime which is that it’s – some would suggest that it’s barely happening at all.  We still have situations, too many situations of criminal activity that are alarming to our citizens and we intend to continue to deal with that.

It was Sun Media‘s David Akin who prompted the final bait-and-switch when he pointedly asked: “Is that like rape or assault or murder? Canadians are saying, ‘No, don’t worry about it, it’s okay?’[...]”

[...] David, in fairness, you’re taking it to the extreme, but certain crimes are unreported and that does have an effect vis-à-vis reported crime and we know that there are still serious criminal justice issues.  As I said, our emphasis on serious, repeat violent offenders, identity theft, some of the types of monetary crime, bank card theft and fraud where people lose their life savings, these type of crimes are very serious.  In the past we think that sentences have not been serious enough, that there’s been too much leeway and discretion in some cases left in the hands of judiciary where we want to see mandatory sentencing, where people who do commit these crimes — I itemized one type of crime for you in terms of the home invasions — where we think there should be some areas of mandatory sentencing to send the signal that we want our citizens protected and that we don’t think serious crime should be treated lightly.

So, let us follow the logic here: The problem with the current system is that it doesn’t punish crimes we’re not entirely sure are happening severely enough. That’s why the crime rate is so high, even though it’s not, but it would be if people reported all the crimes that are taking place.

(These unreported criminals may in fact be the same people whose continued freedom threatens the safety of Tony Clement’s anti-census Twitter friends Julius, Adam, Patrick, Paul, and Chris.)

For the record, according to our their Kady O’Malley (via an aide in Justice Minister Rob Nicholson’s office), the data upon which Day’s contentions about unreported crime are based come from StatsCan’s 2004 General Social Survey. I’m still trying to square Day’s alarm over six-year-old crime stats with this statement, made at the exact same press conference, regarding the census:

When you collect data on a five-year census, how reliable is it when it’s first one year old and then it’s two years old and then before the next census comes around you’re dealing with data that may be five years old which of course is untenable in today’s information age.

Martin posted about this issue last week, when he noted one of the newest Conservative senators had begun expressing reservations about crime stats that don’t conform to gut feelings. I guess it’s a talking point now.

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  • JamesHalifax

    She goes on:
    "but you appear to have these little fantasies about non-crimes being non-reported….which is a crime apparently"

    Sorry, Jenn. Breaking into a car that doesn't belong to you is a crime. Nothing has to be stolen. Not reporting someone broke into your car is not a crime. Once you get that sorted out under the tinfoil, you'll be better able to understand Day's comments.

    More:
    "Confidence in the police in fine…..yelling at kids on your lawn is just silly. "

    Actually, Jenn, confidence in the police is diminished to the point that you know it is a waste of time reporting a crime. The police do NOTHING for property crime other than take notes in the event your stuff is found. There is no investigation in most cases.

    As for the kids on your lawn…….I agree. Yelling at them isn't a solution, though yelling at the kids' parents may give you some satisfaction. Until the police show up and arrest you for verbally assaulting the parents who DO report you.

    And Jenn….keep your damn kids on your own lawn.

  • wsam

    Stockwell Day is the stupidest person on the planet. He's Douglas Fieth on horse steroids.

    The only crime statistics which have any relevance are murder and car theft. Those two stats are the only ones which get consistently reported (missing people and missing cars get reported, in the first instance because they are missing and in the second because of money, i.e. insurance claims) and whose meaning has been consistent over time.

    Definitions of what constitutes assault, sexual assault, property theft, identity theft, fraud, etc … all have changed over time. In many jurisdictions until quite recently husbands could not be charged with sexually assaulting their wives; thus skewering the historical data. The definition of who is and who is not a minor (even the idea of children as minors) is always changing and changes between jurisdictions. Reporting rates are effected by social censure (in the case of rape and sexual assault especially), tradition, ignorance the incidence was indeed a crime, and, in some immigrant communities, distrust of the police.

  • JamesHalifax

    wsam wrote:
    "Stockwell Day is the stupidest person on the planet"

    Obviously, wsam has not been introduced to a mirror.

    • http://intensedebate.com/people/NorthernPoV NorthernPoV

      so you are OK with Laughing-Stock Day being deemed the second most stupid?
      or is it a one-way mirror and he sees you on the other side perhaps?

    • wsam

      Mirrors are windows into the soul and that's why I avoid them.

      Stockwell Day's mental processes are an unreported crime.

  • Phil King

    "…At that time, our violent crime rate was 221 incidents per 100,000 of population. That means last year’s violent crime rate of 920 incidents per 100,000 was 316% higher than in 1962." The Sun, Aug 1, 2010…"

    There are so many factors that influence those numbers that any direct comparison is just plain silly.

    First of all, how many laws were on the books in 1962 versus 2010?

    Do all the various possible internet crimes count in there?
    Drunk driving laws?
    The increased focus on domestic crime?
    Hate laws?
    etc etc

    And then there's questions that are harder to answer such as: What is the impact of population density growth in large cities?

    Surely one must concede that high density populations allow for larger and more complex crime organization, more disparity to drive crime and more opportunity to commit crime.

    I mean come on, let's not be so simplistic.

    • Olaf

      I mean come on, let's not be so simplistic.

      You must be new around here.

  • frobisher

    Anyone know if pre-crime's up or down?

    • wsam

      Nice one!!

  • http://intensedebate.com/people/prescott prescott

    "Mistrust those in whom the urge to punish is strong." ………..Friedrich Nietzsche

  • hosertohoosier

    This assertion that "the rate of reporting has not changed" bugs me. Where did it come from? Because the government does record this as part of the General Social Survey, and reporting rates ARE down. This data (from statistics canada) tells a very different story from that of the UCR, which only looks at reported crime.

    Look at page 17:
    B&E
    1993: 68%
    1999: 62%
    2004: 54%

    Vehicle theft
    1993: 50%
    1999: 60%
    2004: 49%

    Household property theft
    1993: 43%
    1999: 32%
    2004: 29%

    Vandalism
    1993: 46%
    1999: 34%
    2004: 31%

    According to Juristat: http://www.statcan.gc.ca/pub/85-002-x/85-002-x200…

    Nor is this a small problem. Only 26% of women and 38% of men report violent victimization. That rate is lower for some other crimes (notoriously sexual assault). In general the reporting rate for crimes is 34%. Is this a problem that we can't help? Well it is true that in 65% of cases people felt the crime was too small to report – but there were other examples that do speak to the efficacy of the police.

    Reasons for not reporting crimes:
    "Police couldn't do anything": 60%
    "Didn't want police involved": 22%
    "Police wouldn't help": 21%
    "Fear of revenge": 4%

    And rates of property crime ARE on the rise, contrary to the story told by UCR statistics

    Total household crimes per 1000 households
    1993: 193/1000
    1999: 218/1000
    2004: 248/1000

    Violent victimizations, thankfully, were down, but not by much
    1999: 106
    2004: 111

    Incidentally, this would suggest that crime IS up, not down. What strikes me as particularly galling is that Mr. Gohier didn't check the data that was out there before writing his story. Stockwell Day's proposed policy solutions may not be effective remedies, but his statements were at least defensible.

    • hosertohoosier

      Last one should be
      1999: 111
      2004: 106

      • wsam

        The only statistic with which to accurately judge whether crime is rising or falling is murder, with the addition of car theft. The survey information is interesting and actionable and should be cause for concern. But it doesn't record actual crime with any where near the same level of accuracy as the murder rate.

        Additionally a slight rise in 'unreported crime' does not justify spending 9 billion dollars on new prisons and overhauling Canada's criminal justice system. The Conservatives want to punish more 'criminals' because they want to punish more criminals. It is not a means, it is an end. Punishing more criminals is the point. Conservative policy is not intended to reduce crime. It is intended to punish more criminals. It is based on ideology, not bservable reality.

        • hosertohoosier

          This is a rather convenient point for you to make. In the process of arguing for a fact-based approach you advocate throwing out all of the data, apart from homicides. If you have data on the number of crimes committed, and data on the level of non-reporting, you can calculate a modified crime rate (unfortunately the GSS isn't conducted for everything, but it surely paints a picture). As for the declines being small, err no. Reporting in household property theft dropped from 43% to 29% – about a third.

          And we put people in jail for many reasons other than say, rehabilitation. Separating criminals from the general public increases safety, provides a deterrent, and eases concerns about victim's rights. The knowledge that criminals get dealt with can indeed have an impact on things like the rate of reporting. 60% of people who did not report crimes said that the police couldn't do much about it. That speaks to a relatively low level of faith in the justice system.

  • Lord Kitchener's Own

    OK, seriously, can we just replace the entire cabinet with Professor Gordon's metaphorical drunken monkeys already? Surely we're rapidly approaching the point where even Tory supporters would have to agree that a cabinet of drunken monkeys would be better than the clowns we have now. At least I could laugh at the drunken monkeys. All of our current Ministers of the Crown can only illicit tears from me at this point.

    This does at least explain why the Tories are trying to turn Statistics Canada into "Vague Hunches Canada". If your policies can't be supported by reality, the solution is obviously to make sure everyone's view of reality is clouded.

  • Jan

    There is a cartoon floating around (I haven' been able to find it) of Harper holding an Ernie, as in Bert and Ernie, hand puppet. The caption is – this is the new head of Statscan – he'll give us the numbers we want.

  • Kevin
  • http://twitter.com/chiggsy @chiggsy

    No, no, no. You guys are all falling for the pretty girl and the flash.

    The prisons, are not for 'criminals'.

    The prisons are for you. These guys get a majority, then Stock's master, Steven "Hollywood" ( that's who he sold us to!) Harper will rule in Canada like a king. Anything goes. Heck, even having them as govt is bad enough. I'd take the damn NDP ( That's right. I said it. ) over these guys.

    We are served best by a minority government. Look how good things have been recently. Who cares who's in the high chair, as long as we the people are the ones tying the bib?

    Harper needs to win this election. He's going to play dirty, because to fail to get a majority in 4 tries brands him a failure. Let's give the Bloc a chance to be the minority leader, or the green party, or the pirate party. If it's a minority, then we've elected _ourselves_ . That's not so bad eh?

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