If you have neither the facts nor the law, pound the table

Stockwell Day on the justice system’s failure to punish unreported crimes

by Philippe Gohier on Tuesday, August 3, 2010 7:17pm - 0 Comments

Stockwell Day held a press conference Tuesday to talk about the economy and the belt-tightening efforts that are apparently underway in Ottawa. Somehow, this got derailed into a discussion about crime rates—both real and imagined. Witness the rhetorical carnage that results when facts clash with ideology:

The crime rate per thousand, though it has gone down, thankfully, and I think some of that is because of the large amount of resources we’ve put into some areas of preventative criminal justice issues — for instance, targeting individuals at risk, families at risk, communities at risk — there’s been a lot of resources put into preventative programs there.  When you still go back and do crime rate comparisons going back even as much as 40 years, you still see that our crimes per thousand of population are very high, still much higher than they were back as reported in the ‘60s.

Here, in a nutshell, is the bind in which the government finds itself when proposing stiffer sentences at the same time as crime rates are dropping. The harsher sentences have to be justified: “We’re very concerned about the increase in the amount of unreported crimes that surveys clearly show are happening.” But there’s credit to be taken for the very decline that threatens to make those stiffer sentences anachonistic: “I think some of that is because of the large amount of resources we’ve put into some areas of preventative criminal justice issues.”

The solution, it appears, is to be sufficiently vague in recalling the crime rate of days past: “…do crime rate comparisons going back even as much as 40 years, you still see that our crimes per thousand of population are very high, still much higher than they were back as reported in the ‘60s.” Well, if we take murder for example, it’s not clear that’s true. The homicide rate, as the Ottawa Citizen‘s Glen McGregor has helpfully put into a chart, is in fact roughly the same as it was 40 years ago, and is down sharply from its mid-70s peak.

But then, as Day points out, that’s the problem with crime data—it’s based on voluntary (*ahem*) reports :

One statistic of many that concerns us is the amount of crimes that go unreported.  For whatever reasons, people simply are not reporting.  Those numbers are alarming and it shows that we can’t take a liberal view to crime which is that it’s – some would suggest that it’s barely happening at all.  We still have situations, too many situations of criminal activity that are alarming to our citizens and we intend to continue to deal with that.

It was Sun Media‘s David Akin who prompted the final bait-and-switch when he pointedly asked: “Is that like rape or assault or murder? Canadians are saying, ‘No, don’t worry about it, it’s okay?’[...]”

[...] David, in fairness, you’re taking it to the extreme, but certain crimes are unreported and that does have an effect vis-à-vis reported crime and we know that there are still serious criminal justice issues.  As I said, our emphasis on serious, repeat violent offenders, identity theft, some of the types of monetary crime, bank card theft and fraud where people lose their life savings, these type of crimes are very serious.  In the past we think that sentences have not been serious enough, that there’s been too much leeway and discretion in some cases left in the hands of judiciary where we want to see mandatory sentencing, where people who do commit these crimes — I itemized one type of crime for you in terms of the home invasions — where we think there should be some areas of mandatory sentencing to send the signal that we want our citizens protected and that we don’t think serious crime should be treated lightly.

So, let us follow the logic here: The problem with the current system is that it doesn’t punish crimes we’re not entirely sure are happening severely enough. That’s why the crime rate is so high, even though it’s not, but it would be if people reported all the crimes that are taking place.

(These unreported criminals may in fact be the same people whose continued freedom threatens the safety of Tony Clement’s anti-census Twitter friends Julius, Adam, Patrick, Paul, and Chris.)

For the record, according to our their Kady O’Malley (via an aide in Justice Minister Rob Nicholson’s office), the data upon which Day’s contentions about unreported crime are based come from StatsCan’s 2004 General Social Survey. I’m still trying to square Day’s alarm over six-year-old crime stats with this statement, made at the exact same press conference, regarding the census:

When you collect data on a five-year census, how reliable is it when it’s first one year old and then it’s two years old and then before the next census comes around you’re dealing with data that may be five years old which of course is untenable in today’s information age.

Martin posted about this issue last week, when he noted one of the newest Conservative senators had begun expressing reservations about crime stats that don’t conform to gut feelings. I guess it’s a talking point now.

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  • Emily

    Stock….in or out of a wetsuit….is always underwater.

    • Anon 001

      And way in over his head …

      • Sigh

        And all wet.

    • PolJunkie

      And this guy is by far the best Minister Harper has at his Cabinet table…

    • http://intensedebate.com/people/Dennis_F Dennis_F

      Hey, that's an intelligent post!

    • http://intensedebate.com/people/Patrick_Ross Patrick_Ross

      If only it were so.

      Let's take a look at the rates of crime actually reported to police, via the Crime Victimization Survey:

      1991 – 42% of crimes were reported to police.
      1999 – 37% of crimes were reported to police.
      2004 – 34% of crimes were reported to police.

      As crime rates drop, the report of crime to police has also declined.

      Does anyone here REALLY think this is coincidental? Really?

      • http://intensedebate.com/people/Thwim Thwim

        So we'll put the same question to you as Akin put to Day:
        “Is that like rape or assault or murder? Canadians are saying, ‘No, don’t worry about it, it’s okay?’

        • http://intensedebate.com/people/Patrick_Ross Patrick_Ross

          As a matter of fact, there are some crimes we know frequently go unreported.

          Namely, sexual assault and criminal harassment.

          66% of criminal harassments tend to go unreported.
          Likewise, up to 71% of sexual assaults go unreported.

          Now, consider this: under the 2-for-1 sentencing provision, it's common for criminals to walk right out of a courtroom after receiving in some cases up to a 3-for-1 credit for time served. Free to immediately retaliate against the complainant.

          It's no wonder that so many crimes go unreported — and not just petty crimes, either.

          • Thwim

            Consider this: most people are unaware of the sentencing provision.

          • http://nexusofassholery.blogspot.com/ Patrick_Ross

            Most people are aware of the worrying frequency with which criminals end up serving little to no time after being convicted, even for serious offences.

  • http://intensedebate.com/people/bill_y bill_y

    what does one say… where does one start….

    • Dave

      I started by saying BWA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA!

  • Mike T.

    Nice to see an extremist twit get officially called on one the dumb arguments they keep trying to make.

  • http://intensedebate.com/people/prescott prescott

    Barking mad, the lot of them. Incompetence at its best.

    This 'Ship of Fools' is listing badly and those still aboard will go down with it.

  • Mike T.

    I've seen the "liberal view" quote also written as "Liberal view". Will Day be clarifying?

    • Jan

      He clams Liberals are saying that there is no crime. He didn't offer a direct quote…

    • http://intensedebate.com/people/Patrick_Ross Patrick_Ross

      Mark Holland has clearly been clarifying that enough FOR Stockwell.

  • bergkamp

    It would be nice if Con Ministers were prepared to argue their case instead of coming across stupefied all the time.

    I think Stockwell Day was trying to talk about these two trends Lorrie Goldstein often writes about.

    "I can now tell you there were 920 violent crimes reported to police per 100,000 population in Canada in 2009.

    The good news is that’s a slight drop from the 936 violent crimes reported per 100,000 in 2008.

    The bad news is it means our violent crime rate remains more than 300% higher than what it was when comparable statistics first started being kept in 1962.

    At that time, our violent crime rate was 221 incidents per 100,000 of population.

    That means last year’s violent crime rate of 920 incidents per 100,000 was 316% higher than in 1962." The Sun, Aug 1, 2010
    ————————

    "Statistics Canada says this fall it will release 2009 crime victimization data from the General Social Survey, reported once every five years.

    Here’s what that data indicated when it was last reported, using information compiled up to 2004.

    First, progressively fewer Canadians who were crime victims reported those crimes to police — only 34% in 2004 compared to 37% in 1999.

    Second, an estimated 92% of sexual assaults were never reported to police, nor 46% of break-ins, 51% of motor vehicle and parts thefts, 61% of physical assaults and 54% of robberies.

    As for the “crime is going down” claim, here’s the reality.

    Crime rates rose dramatically through the 1960s, 1970s and 1980s, then peaked and started to fall slowly in the early 1990s across North America.

    No one knows why." The Sun, July 25, 2010

    • edeast

      re, No one knows why. Levitt's hypothesis is because of abortions.

      • edeast

        I'm not sure if this applies to Canada, though, it looks like we had a slow ramp-up in the number of abortions.

      • http://intensedebate.com/people/Patrick_Ross Patrick_Ross

        Levitt's hypothesis, in this case, turned out to be flawed:
        http://www.isteve.com/freakonomics_fiasco.htm

        Even brilliant economists are permitted to make mistakes. I still consider the rest of Freakonomics to be brilliant.

        • edeast

          thanks

        • edeast

          It looks like only 1 of the tables was flawed. And here is levitt's response taking into account Foote's critique, and generating a new table. Sailor is active in the comments. I think some of the stronger arguments are the mobility between different states, and girls travelling to different states for abortions. But this debate is 5 years old. I'm sure the answer is out there.
          Sailor seems unhinged.

    • bill_y

      We agree on your first sentence – as for the rest, not so much. A "reporting rate" decrease of 3% over 5 years seems not to be overly "alarming".

      More to the point, however, is the question of how these unreported crimes support the need for more prison spaces. O, I know, let's make not reporting a crime a crime – and since that trend is going up, we will fill up those spaces in no time!

      • http://intensedebate.com/people/craigola craigola

        Failure to do so will result in fine or incarceration.

        • http://intensedebate.com/people/tobyornotoby tobyornotoby

          I'd like to report bill_y. That sh*t you sold me couldn't get a fly high.

      • http://intensedebate.com/people/Patrick_Ross Patrick_Ross

        Of course you agree with the first sentence. Everything else in that comment addresses facts you don't want to acknowledge.

        Let me help you assemble this little puzzle, and we'll see if we can get you to leave the red-tinted glasses behind.

        Canadians have seen a disturbing number of criminals turned loose on 2-for-1 credits — to the extent that many people have judged reporting a crime to the police, and going through the hassle of testifying in court, to not be worth it — courts will simply slap the perp on the wrists and turn them loose.

        The 2-for-1 credit was justified on th basis of poor prison conditions, including overcrowding.

        Now that the 2-for-1 credit has been receded to a 1.5-for-1 credit — and we'll be working on abolishing it altogether — the government must take steps to improve prison conditions.

        If overcrowding is the issue, more prisons are needed.

        Not to mention that some of Canada's prisons are currently up to 40 years old, and are in need of replacement. In other cases, deferred maintanance has exacerbated the need to replace prisons that are newer.

        So, let's review:

        -First off, Stockwell is right about the deceptiveness of crime rates.
        -Stockwell is right about the declining number of crimes repoted to police
        -Overcrowding in prisons has been raised as an issue by numerous organizations
        -Prison conditions have been cited as justification for the 2-for-1 credit that has de-motivated so many Canadians from reporting crimes.

        "If you have neither the facts nor the law, pound the table"

        You folks may not have the facts, but (for now) you seem to have the law. I'm not sure why you feel such a need to pound the table.

        • Marion

          Then why are the conservatives closing the prision farms?

          • Holly Stick

            Because they don't want prisoners to learn anything, and they only want to punish. They don't really believe in redemption.

    • http://intensedebate.com/people/RunningGag RunningGag

      Second, an estimated 92% of sexual assaults were never reported to police, nor 46% of break-ins, 51% of motor vehicle and parts thefts, 61% of physical assaults and 54% of robberies.

      I guess the question is: How do these estimates compare to previous estimates?

      • http://intensedebate.com/people/A_logician A_logician

        You guess the question; I question the guess.

    • http://intensedebate.com/people/Jenn_ Jenn_

      Okay, let's assume for the moment that everything you said there is bang on. Now, how does having more prisons, having mandatory jail times, having a serious face and a stern demeanour INCREASE THE CRIMES REPORTED?

      • http://intensedebate.com/people/sourstud sourstud

        People will be more likely to report crimes if they think that something is going to be done about it. I'd say it's pretty obvious that the reason people don't report crimes is because they know nothing is going to be done about it.

        • Emily

          So they're robbed, assaulted, raped….and don't report it?

          Reality please.

          • http://intensedebate.com/people/sourstud sourstud

            I think you need a dose of reality. You think people report every minor assault, even knowing that the police will do nothing about it? Of course not!

            Do you think every car that's broken into gets reported if nothing is stolen? Definitely not, people pay for the repairs themselves and move on.

            The fact that people don't have enough confidence in the police and courts to do anything about these crimes is a very serious issue that needs to be addressed.

          • http://intensedebate.com/people/Jenn_ Jenn_

            It has absolutely nothing to do with confidence in the police. It has quite a bit to do with the aggravation to the victim's life not being worth the minor sexual assault or bit of stuff stolen. If it was major sexual assault, I imagine (and here I don't speak from experience) there could be shame involved (don't want everyone to know). If the person is a family member or something, I imagine there are a whole host of dynamics to consider–will it make an already bad life worse for someone you care about? Will anyone believe you?

          • http://intensedebate.com/people/sourstud sourstud

            It has more to do with the confidence people have that the police have the resources to investigate minor crimes. People know that small thefts and minor assaults simply can not be investigated, so they don't bother reporting them. That is a problem.

          • http://intensedebate.com/people/Ricard_S_Argent Richard_S_Argent

            What does any of that have to do with building more maximum security prisons?

          • http://intensedebate.com/people/sourstud sourstud

            If there are more prison spaces available, judges can sentence more people to jail when appropriate, rather than probation, house-arrest, etc.

          • Richard_S_Argent

            You really think that spending, what, $87,000/yr to incarcerate petty criminals is a fruitful use of taxpayer money?

            You live in a very odd world.

            (and yes, my car was recently broken into, they stole nothing of worth. I did report it to the police, but I gotta tell you – the fact that they likely will never find the culprit isn't what grinds my gears…it's that my insurance, privately owned by the way, wouldn't cover a cent of the $250 it cost to replace my window)

          • sourstud

            I'm not saying we should incarcerate petty criminals. I'm saying we should incarcerate criminals that the law (and thus, society) has dictated is are worthy of incarceration.

            And would you not concede that the next time your car is broken into or vandalized in some minor way, that you will be less likely to report it to the police considering you now know that they will do nothing about it, and there isn't even reason to do so for insurance purposes? I mean, you'd really just be wasting everybody's time then, wouldn't you?

          • http://intensedebate.com/people/Ricard_S_Argent Richard_S_Argent

            We do still incarcerate violent criminals in this country right? I didn't miss some big announcement by the Liberals did I?

            Oh no, I'll still report it. Why not? I just won't expect two detectives to do extensive undercover work to crack the case of the broken car window.

          • http://intensedebate.com/people/sourstud sourstud

            Well I suppose if you report it or not is kinda irrelevant considering we both acknowledge nothing will be done about it.

            And yes, we do still incarcerate some violent criminals in this country, but we certainly don't incarcerate every person who commits serious crimes. White-collar crime, domestic abuse, drug dealers, etc. increasingly receive house-arrest, probation, or are sentenced to time served.

          • http://intensedebate.com/people/hardmouth hardmouth

            Interesting…that you listed domestic abuse in there… I assume then that you are for the long gun registry? Since long guns are used in 72% of fire arm spousal homicides. Furthermore, the major determining factor for violence against women is their economic independance… but I assume you're probably against any attempts to help women in poverty, like universal childcare and adequate social housing.

          • http://intensedebate.com/people/Patrick_Ross Patrick_Ross

            Here's a fun exercise:

            Name one single case in which the long gun registry helped prevent a murder or domestic assault.

          • http://intensedebate.com/profiles/harebell harebell

            Here's another one

            Name me one person who was murdered by their spouse using a long gun that was on the register?

          • http://intensedebate.com/people/Patrick_Ross Patrick_Ross

            This I can actually answer:

            There was a case last year where a man was planning to murder his spouse with a registered long gun.

            The murder was prevented by law enforcement, but the long gun registry was never involved. The mam was actually stopped after acting erratically during a routine traffic stop.

          • http://intensedebate.com/profiles/harebell harebell

            really?
            Details would be great, it's not that I'm skeptical, I'm intrigued.

            Also doesn't really answer the question does it? It's still ….. zero.

          • http://intensedebate.com/people/Patrick_Ross Patrick_Ross

            I read about this months ago. I don't remember the names, I wouldn't be able to find the story again if I tried — or at least I don't expect I would.

            It DOES answer your question — just not in the form you desired.

          • http://intensedebate.com/profiles/harebell harebell

            Not really nobody was murdered.

          • http://intensedebate.com/people/Patrick_Ross Patrick_Ross

            Only because of the actions of police.

            The perpetrator planned to murder his spouse with a registered long gun — but the registry had nothing to do with averting that murder.

            These are the salient details.

          • harebell

            The salient details are no murder was committed unless we have a "minority report" situation happening.
            There's many a thing that could have happened resulting in no murder if the police hadn't pulled the dude over.
            Stockwell wants to jail criminals that aren't reported and it appears you want to use crimes that weren't committed as evidence of a failure to prevent that crime in the first place.
            Strange indeed.

          • http://intensedebate.com/people/Patrick_Ross Patrick_Ross

            …Are you serious?

            You couldn't POSSIBLY be serious.

            You can argue that there are many things that COULD have prevented this man from murdering his wife.

            The salient detail — the one grounded in reality — will remain that it was the involvement of police that ultimately accomplished this end.

            This is not the sci-fi aisle of the video store. This is not a Tom Cruise scientology seminar. This is reality.

            The REALITY is that Stockwell Day is right. There IS an alarming number of crimes that go unreported to police.

            The REALITY is that the left-wing ideological approach to crime built disincentives to reporting crime into Canada's criminal justice system.

            The REALITY is that this government is acting to eliminate them.

            You insist on dwelling in a world of hypotheticals wherein maybe SOMETHING, SOMEWHERE will line up in support of your ideology.

            Unfortunately for you, the facts never do. They never have, and there's no reason to expect that they ever will.

          • harebell

            Really, project much?
            No murder, yes a possibility of a murder, but no murder in REALITY.
            So the REALITY of the true answer to my original question is; NO you cannot provide one example of a murder that has been committed in REALITY by a weapon that was on the long gun register.

            Your argumentation was actually based on ..

            "….. dwelling in a world of hypotheticals wherein maybe SOMETHING, SOMEWHERE will line up in support of your ideology."

          • http://nexusofassholery.blogspot.com/ Patrick_Ross

            It's evident at this point that you're confused about what camp you're arguing from.

            You are clearly not in favour of reevaluating Canadian criminal justice practices in order to determine how unreported crimes can be addressed.

            Yet you're also willing to bend over backward in order to try to argue against the long gun registry.

            You are also wrong — it's illegal to plan to kill someone.

            If one is caught en route to commit that murder, with the weapon nonetheless — all the more damning.

            You're celarly bending over backward to try to score points on this one.

            Too bad you've failed so badly.

          • harebell

            I never questioned the illegality of planning to commit murder, that is something you just brought up.

            I never defended the long gun registry, I asked a question that I thought was more pertinent to the original discussion than your question.

            You ignored the question and used a possible, but not yet committed murder as proof that the gun registry fails to prevent murder. (This was very much in the vein of Stockwell using unreported crimes as an excuse for building prisons.)

            I never said anything about increasing the efficiency at which crimes are reported.

            Then you assumed that I was trying to score points. Why? I don't know you, what purpose would it serve?

          • http://nexusofassholery.blogspot.com/ Patrick_Ross

            It's very clear at this point that you've only been interested in scoring poitns. It's also very clear at this poitn that you've failed.

            Now you're just desperately trying to grind out something you can call a victory.

            It's pathetic and you need to stop.

            What the story here actually demonstrates is that the long gun registry not only fails to prevent gun violence, but it isn't even a factor when gun violence is prevented.

            That is reality. Your undiginified attempts at aimless point-scoring don't change it.

          • harebell

            I think you are not well, or are incapable of actually following a discussion.
            I had no idea, please forgive me.

          • http://nexusofassholery.blogspot.com/ Patrick_Ross

            That's an odd statement coming from someone incapable of actually HAVING a discussion.

          • http://intensedebate.com/people/Thwim Thwim

            I dunno. When the police go in prepared for a gun because of the long gun registry, do they explicitly note that fact anywhere?

            And when they don't expect a gun, as in Mayerthorpe, well, we all ended up noting that.

          • http://intensedebate.com/people/Patrick_Ross Patrick_Ross

            Pump the brakes.

            The RCMP didn't respond to the Roszko call in Mayerthorpe not expecting a gun. Rather, they had every reason in the world to expect a gun, registry or no registry.

            They responded to that call not expecting a perp to be on the premises.

            By the way, Roszko did NOT kill those mounties with a long gun, as Antonia Zerbisias wrote in the Toronto Star. He killed them with an assault rifle — classified as a restricted/prohibited weapon.

          • Marion

            Even though he did have a registered long gun in his possession, which he forcefully borrowed from one of his neighbours.

          • http://intensedebate.com/people/Patrick_Ross Patrick_Ross

            Which, unfortuantely for you, STILL undermines your argument, as all the facts do.

            After all, the registration of the weapon didn't do anything to prevent him from stealing it, and certainly wouldn't have prevented him from using it.

          • hosertohoosier

            A few points. First, the broken window theory of policing suggests getting tough on petty crimes precisely because of the role they play in the lifecycle of a criminal. People do not wake up one day and think – hey, I'll become a crack dealer. Demonstrating toughness and enforcement on less serious offenses can deter people from becoming criminals later. The theory has its supporters and doesn't come out of nowhere (it has arguably been a huge success in New York City, for instance).

            Secondly, non-reporting of crimes is a big deal in the alienated and marginalized communities that are most likely to be the victims of crime. A belief that reporting will not result in action is part of that, although strained relationships are another and probably bigger cause. If you ever get a chance to see a talk by Bill Blair, I advise that you attend. His story of the initial reception he got in the Jarvis neighbourhood (ie. a chilly one), and how he responded to that is a great lesson.

          • burlivespipe

            Interesting. the same group that is marginalized and moved to accept some crimes as a reality and thus not report them, will be under-reported through census thanks to Stockwell Day's bossman's radical fear of someone finding out about his makeup lady's salary.

          • http://intensedebate.com/people/hardmouth hardmouth

            Fact.

          • http://intensedebate.com/people/Moe_Mentum Moe_Mentum

            According to Dan Gardner, the Broken Windows strategy has been oversimplified. It isn't just about arresting the person that broke the window, it's also about fixing the window to remove 'environmental cues' that can send the area into a further downward spiral. I can buy this – graffiti tags multiply like rabbits when they aren't painted over. http://www.dangardner.ca/Colnov2608.html

          • wsam

            It used to be legally impossible to charge someone with raping their wife. For example.

            Sexual crimes are grossly under-reported. Even major ones.

          • Marion

            And when they are reported, the victim can expect her/his past sexual behaviour to be dragged out in court in far more detail than that of the perpetrator.

            Something I heard the other day, but have not researched to confirm it: With the advent of no-fault divorce, there was no change in the number of women killed by their husbands. However, there was a drop in the number of men killed by their wives.

          • Emily

            If it's assault of course the police will do something about it. I don't know why people would break into a car without taking something….but you appear to have these little fantasies about non-crimes being non-reported….which is a crime apparently

            Confidence in the police in fine…..yelling at kids on your lawn is just silly.

          • sourstud

            I know of at least 3 assaults in the last year (friends/acquaintances) where the police simply said there was nothing they could do, because they had no leads. They're not going to DNA test the scene, etc for assaults, they simply can't.

            And people break into cars to steal them, and are often unsuccessful leaving just a badly damaged car behind, or don't find any items in the car to steal. All you need to do is look at areas that have mandatory immobilizers in vehicles… thefts go down, break-ins w/o theft go waaaaaaaay up. It's still a crime, and should still be treated as such.

          • http://intensedebate.com/people/NorthernPoV NorthernPoV

            so I have at least tried to read your voluminous posts that seem to add up to nothing, sour guy

            you've been asked this before but you never answer:
            how does building more prisons and jacking up sentences affect the way the police might investigate the assaults on your friends?

          • BCer in Mtl

            Maybe its a matter of lead-time.

            It takes a while to build those prisons, what with proposals, regulatory assessments, tendering, design, construction, etc. It will probably be several years before any one of them is open for business.

            In the meantime, I would expect this government to address the "supply side" for the prisons, things like more policing, more invasive surveillance, stricter laws, etc, all of which could be done in a shorter lead time than the prisons. Once the wave of more and longer incarceration starts, the prisons should be ready.

            As an aside, it would be interesting to see how engaged the 'for-profit' prison lobby is on matters of tougher laws, sentencing, etc . . . surely they would want to see a more predictable stream of inmates to ensure revenue streams?

          • wsam

            Liar. You don't have any friends.

          • http://intensedebate.com/people/sourstud sourstud

            That was very clever for a 3 year old. The other kids in kindergarten must be very impressed with you.

          • wsam

            I may be in kindergarten but at least I'm not some weird little man pathologically posting comments in a futile attempt to paper over the pathetic void at the centre of his lonely existence.

            You make me feel sad.

            Ha! Ha!!

          • http://intensedebate.com/people/sourstud sourstud

            I know you are but what am I?

            P.S. I'm glad I make you sad, wouldn't want to cause you any joy.

          • tono-bungay

            The General Social Survey on Victimization is quite specific about the reasons why crimes are not reported. The major reason is that they did not consider the incident important enough. It should be pointed out that violent crimes, even unreported ones, are on the decrease, and people feel safer and are more satisfied with police and with the courts (all according to this survey). While serious crimes, reported and unreported, are on the decrease, there is an increase in the loss or theft of low-value items or unsuccessful attempted thefts.

            The problem with victimization and confidence in police varies enormously by region and ethnic group. Alberta's rate is three times worse than Quebec's and victimization among natives and low income earners are also several times higher than the average. There are specific problems that require attention, but in general only a small minority believe that crime is rising.

            Also in the survey, people have a generally good opinion of how the prison system works, except that manyy believe it is not doing a good job of rehabilitation. But even that satisfaction rate is has improved greatly between 1994 and 2004.

          • http://intensedebate.com/people/sourstud sourstud

            The fact that people think that certain crimes aren't important enough to report is a problem in itself. Society's apathy towards smaller crimes will eventually lead toward apathy toward worse crimes.

            And while we'll all agree that it's great that the crime-rate is trickling down, shouldn't we be more concerned about how to maximize that downtrend, rather than simply being satisfied that it's dropping? And using 1994 as a baseline is kinda arbitrary. I'd say that our goals should be to decrease the crime-rate to an all-time low, and I'd like to think that most would agree with me on that.

          • Clay Tablet

            No smaller crime apathy won't lead to apathy towards worse crimes. It's the opposite. I wasn't killed, I wasn't raped. I had my hat stolen, or I had my car stolen. Having my hat stolen doesn't seem to bad. Makes sense. We make experiences relative to the worst possible scenario.

            You expect it to proceed they stole my hat, meh, they stole my car, meh, oh they killed me, meh.

          • http://intensedebate.com/people/hardmouth hardmouth

            So people aren't angry enough at being victimized?

            1)The major factor for crime's downward trend is demographics, largely beyond government control. The little influence governments can have is largely through preventive and rehabilitative efforts. Crime is certainly linked to society, but the mechanism is not apathy. Crime reflects a myriad of factors- social cohesion, poverty, employment, etc.

            2)decreasing crime to new historic lows might be a good goal, but certainly isn't one that should be pursued at all costs. Governing is about priorities, and there soooo many things that need attention in our country before this issue.

        • tobyornotoby

          Non-reporting of sexual assaults has been fairly well studied and I think it's safe to say that the absence of tougher sentences isn't a factor. A focus on comprehensive victim services might increase reporting, but I haven't heard any announcements about that, just an increased focus on incarceration for perpetrators.

          • http://intensedebate.com/people/sourstud sourstud

            Increased incarceration for sexual predators certainly won't increase the number of victims out there, though. Less time incarcerated is less time for rehabilitation also, let's remember. I'd rather err on the side of caution, than giving criminals the benefit of the doubt.

          • http://intensedebate.com/people/hardmouth hardmouth

            at what cost? 9 billion?

        • Patchouli

          Are you the new CEO of Vague Hunches Canada??

          • http://intensedebate.com/people/sourstud sourstud

            President and CEO, thank you very much.

    • Amateur Hour

      The question was specifically about the Harper government engaging in large amounts of NEW spending on NEW prisons, when crime stats are FALLING. The question wasn't, "Should we spend new money on new prisons for crimes committed 40 years ago?"

      Stock then tried to claim that unreported crimes are rising at an alarming rate (as is the presence of invisible leprechauns at press conferences). Unreported crimes however, almost always are so minor as to not warrant victims even bothering to call police. More significantly, unreported crimes NEVER result in arrests or convictions that would require NEW prison spending.

      Stock and Harper have been banging on about this for years. Indeed, it's not fair to jump all over Stock for repeating something Harper has said many times — Don't trust statistics on crime, trust your gut. You're more afraid of crime than you used to be, and we're here to both stoke and respond to your fears.

      Stock is just backing up his boss' crass fear mongering. Your outrage should be directed at the source of the policy and the key player in scheme to separate public policy from facts and needs – Stephen Harper.

      • http://intensedebate.com/people/sourstud sourstud

        Stock didn't try to claim anything, he stated a fact. Unreported crimes are rising at an alarming rate. "The Crime Victimization study, part of the broader General Social Survey, found that in 2004 only about 34% of criminal incidents came to the attention of the police, down from 37%in 1999 and 42% in 1993." If you don't think that public apathy towards small crimes is a problem, I would suggest you're our of touch with most Canadians.

        • wsam

          Unreported crime is about as far from a fact as you can be and still be using language. You get further out and its all grunts and hand gestures.

          • http://intensedebate.com/people/sourstud sourstud

            What part of that statistic (fact) do you not understand? Should I mime it for you?

          • wsam

            Unreported crime is not a fact. It's a small group of people reporting what they had previously not reported in response to a questionaire and then researchers extrapolating their responses. It is not the same as crime statistics based on police investigations.

            We don't even know if all the respondents have the same understanding of sexual assult, violent assult, property crime, fraud, etc …

            It's totally unreliable.

          • http://intensedebate.com/people/sourstud sourstud

            You're saying that unreported crime doesn't exist. Then in the following sentence you say it only effects a small group of people. It's also demonstrated that that "small group" of people is growing, and fast. So, which one is it?

          • wsam

            I'm saying it is not a useful piece of data the same way the murder rate is.

            1) it's based on a survey. Not hard data. Extrapolated data.

            2) Are the respondents lying. Lazy.

            3) Do they understand the questions in the same way (i.e. are the surveys responses internally consistent)

            4) Unreported crimes have not being investigated. Are they actually crimes?

            You are not asking these respondents to count bathrooms. You are asking for their impressions about something they didn't think meaningful enough to report. You are asking people to classify as a crime something they did not consider a crime.

            Therefore the results are inherently problematic. As is any debate that uses unreported crime as a hinge point.

            Stockwell Day was saying Canada's muder rate is not important. Unreported crime is. It's laughable.

          • http://intensedebate.com/people/sourstud sourstud

            Well, as for your concerns about the validity of the survey, I have complete faith that Stats Canada is completely capable of completing a survey with statistical accuracy, and of informing the respondents of the proper definitions in said survey. You, evidently don't think they're capable of this. Fair 'nuff I suppose.

            And Stockwell Day was not saying Canada's murder rate is not important. He actually took credit for the falling crime rate, but is saying that unreported property crimes are an ongoing concern. Maybe you should try reading what he actually said, rather than making up 99% of it.

          • wsam

            He's unreported crime to refute the murder rate going down.

            Unreported property crimes are not an ongoing concern. Why? because they are unreported.

            The tiny number of Canadians who participated in that survey reported something happened to their property which at the time they didn't feel constituted a crime but in retrospect it might have been. All the responses could mean is that by asking the question Statistics Canada has broadened people's definition of property crime.

            I'm beginning to get the impression you don't want to understand.

            I also don't think you understand exactly what that StatCan survey was actually studying.

            It's like conducting a study on happiness. Interesting. Maybe even useful. But your not going to change your core institutions because a survey of 5,000 people declared themselves somewhat happy.

        • Thwim

          3% over 5 years, with the number of severe crimes declining is "alarming"?

          Goodness, you might want to take your warm milk and bundle up with your DVDs of "Gomer Pyle" before you hear something that actually is of concern.

    • wsam

      The legal definition, awareness and reporting of what constitutes a 'violent crime' has changed. Thus we have an increase that may be unrelated to the actual activity.

  • http://nottawa.blogspot.com Mark

    There is more bank card crime today than there was in the 1960s?

    That is truly shocking.

    Next thing he'll be saying there are fewer dinosaurs around today than when humans first walked the earth.

    Idiot.

    • http://intensedebate.com/people/Jenn_ Jenn_

      (Remember, this is Stockwell Day)

    • Sigh

      But unreported dinosaurs are on the rise.

    • perplexed

      WRONG! Day thinks dinosaurs AND humans walked the Earth AT THE SAME TIME!!!

    • wsam

      There is more texting while driving then their was in the 1960s. Much of it goes unreported.

  • Bob

    A major problem with the Conservative talking points on this is that they're focusing on crime rates at all. Deterrence isn't the only argument to support tougher penalties on certain crimes. Deterrence isn't the only goal, and it certainly isn't the only justification for making changes to the justice system, whether we're talking about sentencing, parole, young offenders, etc.

    • http://intensedebate.com/people/bill_y bill_y

      OK, I'll bite – aside from deterrence, what are the remaining valid justifications for the "tough on crime" approach?

      • http://intensedebate.com/people/Stewart_Smith Stewart_Smith

        section 718 of the Criminal Code

        Purpose
        718. The fundamental purpose of sentencing is to contribute, along with crime prevention initiatives, to respect for the law and the maintenance of a just, peaceful and safe society by imposing just sanctions that have one or more of the following objectives:

        (a) to denounce unlawful conduct;
        (b) to deter the offender and other persons from committing offences;
        (c) to separate offenders from society, where necessary;
        (d) to assist in rehabilitating offenders;
        (e) to provide reparations for harm done to victims or to the community; and
        (f) to promote a sense of responsibility in offenders, and acknowledgment of the harm done to victims and to the community.

        The Conservative Tough on Crime agenda really focuses on a) & f).

        • Phil

          And c), don't forget about that objective.

          And there are instances where I am very thankful for objective c).

          • http://intensedebate.com/people/Stewart_Smith Stewart_Smith

            Thanks for catching my sloppiness.

            I suspect the real debate that needs to be had is the conflict between c & d. I personally believe we make a mistake by assuming that at least the possibility of d) should be available to all criminals. Once some thresholds are crossed, criminals really should be removed from society for life. That said, if you are going to let somebody out eventually, everything that can be done should be done to ensure the person will be rehabilitated.

          • http://intensedebate.com/people/PhilCP Phil

            It wouldn't take much to convince me that there are a (small?) number of criminals that society should not risk trying to rehabilitate, a group for whom objective c) is the most important objective. For that group prisons are required. And I don't even need those prisons to be particularly draconian, just secure.

            But then, if society decides that objective c) is not required I'm not sure why there is still so much focus on prisons; can't we come up with anything better than prisons for criminals who we accept that we will ultimately be prepared to let live amongst us at some future time?

            And what about objective e) – seems to me that we currently don't actually put much effort at all into reparations.

          • Blacktop

            But then there is always punishment to fall back on.

      • Anon Liberal

        Sweet sweet revenge.

  • Jan

    Tom Flanagan defended Day's failed performance today saying that this isn't Day's area of expertise. Day was Minister of Public Safety for 2 years.

    • http://intensedebate.com/people/bill_y bill_y

      yes, saw the inteview, – Tom was cutting "Stock" way too much slack.

    • http://nottawa.blogspot.com Mark

      And the Conservative movement's choice for Prime Minister earlier this decade…

    • Sigh

      Flanagan also said that the media should cut Day some slack because he had run a marathon on the Great Wall of China and he was exhausted.

      Rosemary Barton pointed out that was weeks (even months) ago.

  • jarrid

    Iggy's been backing the Conservative's 'tough on crime' agenda. The Conservatives fully expect he'll continue his support. The Canadian public is on side as well.

    The liberal/left may not beleive in retributive justice, but by and large the Canadian public does. The Canadian public doesn't see the justice system as primarily a therapeutic endeavour as most left/lib types do. They see it primarily as a way to mete out justice. That is to say, to punish criminals and bring justice to victims of crime.

From Macleans