John Geddes

John Geddes

John Geddes writes on politics and policy, with occasional reporting and comment on arts and culture.

Stockwell Day on home invasions: more from his news conference [UPDATED]

by John Geddes on Wednesday, August 4, 2010 5:23pm - 0 Comments

Stockwell Day has come under what has to be unwelcome scrutiny over his remarks yesterday about how unreported crime justifies spending billions on new prisons. I guess that’s to provide cells in which to lock up the unreported criminals. The upside is that crowding shouldn’t be an issue.

Day is Treasury Board President now, but used to be Public Safety minister, which might explain his willingness to hold forth on law-and-order issues. In the same eventful news conference, he offered a rather dramatic justification for the government’s push to make sure more convicted criminals serve long terms behind bars. This quote is a bit shambling, but here’s a chunk of what he said:

“We’re really concerned about serious, repeat, violent crime; about the fact that these type of criminals through other administrations, certainly under the Liberal administration—for instance, crimes like arson, crimes like home invasion with aggravated assault, which has to be one of the most grievous types of crimes you can think of, people’s houses being broken into and people, in many cases, senior citizens, being grievously assaulted—previously there were too many cases when those were addressed with what’s called conditional sentencing. That means the criminals in that case get sent home. They don’t have to go to jail. That is not a deterrent. So we’re going to continue to look at serious violent crime and having serious and mandatory jail terms there.”

I understood him to say that thugs who invaded the homes of senior citizens and assaulted them have often been let off without going to prison. At least, that was how it was back when the Liberals ruled. Could this possibly be true? I went looking for information on sentencing in home invasion cases. I found an informative ruling from the Ontario Court of Appeal, handed down on Dec. 8, 2006, which discusses the matter in detail.

The appeal court had been asked to reduce the eight-year sentence imposed by a lower court on a man named Wade Wright, one of five armed robbers who broke into a Richmond Hill, Ont. home in 2004, and terrorized the family inside. Wright’s lawyers argued that eight years was at the stiff end of the customary five- to eight-year range for convictions involving home invasion, and too long in their client’s case.

But the appeal judge, Justice Robert Blair, noted that while five to eight years had once been the normal range, courts across Canada had by then moved toward longer sentences. Blair cited home invasion convictions in which the sentences were 10, 12 and 13 years, and quoted judges, stretching back to a key 1996 ruling, expressing outrage at criminals who violate the sanctity of the home.

Not surprisingly, politicians in that period had picked up on the same public anger over home invasions that was being echoed from the bench. In 2002, the Liberal government of the time amended the Criminal Code to explicitly make home invasion, which isn’t a separate offence, an aggravating factor that judges would have to take into account when they were handing down sentences for related crimes like unlawful confinement, robbery, extortion, and breaking and entering.

So by the time the Conservatives took office in 2006, the courts had been seized by the seriousness of home invasions for at least a decade, and were sending offenders to jail for longer. And, in Ottawa, the government had changed the law to make sure those harsher sentences were imposed as a matter of course.

Have there been exceptions of the sort Day described—old people beaten in their own homes, and yet their assailants let off with conditional sentences? I’m not sure how that could happen.  For one thing, conditional sentences—in which the criminal serves time in the community under supervision and court-ordered restrictions—are only allowed when imprisonment would have been less than two years. But sentences in home invasion convictions, as we’ve seen, seem to be much longer than that.

I’ve asked Day’s office, and the offices of the Justice and Public Safety ministers, to provide material supporting his statement yesterday. So far, they have only passed along the broad Statistics Canada data on criminal courts, which shows that 4.4 per cent of adult criminal convictions result in conditional sentences. There’s nothing in the data that I can see, though, to shore up Day’s version of reality.

I’m left to conclude that, in fact, lengthy prison sentences have long been the standard punishment for those convicted of crimes that involve home invasion. Judges and the previous government took note of society’s natural outrage over this kind of crime, and acted accordingly. What Day said looks to be an unfounded attempt to exploit public outrage over crime in general, and the fears of senior citizens over having thugs break into their homes in particular.

UPDATE:

A couple of points for anyone interested in delving further.

1. If you’re interested in the stats for the sorts of sentences handed down, you might want to look at this recent Statistics Canada report, Adult criminal court statistics 2008-2009. (I clicked on “full article in pdf.”) The table on page 29, “Guilty cases by type of sentence, adult criminal court, Canada, 2008-2009,” is the place to start for info on conditional sentences. For the basic definitions (including the important limits on when conditional sentences are allowed) check out the definitions section that starts on page 21 of the pdf version.

2. I’m sorry that I’ve been unable to find an online source to link to for the Court of Appeal for Ontario case I refer to above. For those more adept at searching out legal documents, it’s Her Majesty the Queen and Wade Wright, Dec. 8, 2006. But here’s a long quote that might be of interest from Justice Blair’s decision, where he talks about the range of sentencing, starting at a low of four or five years, in home invasion cases:

The cases to which we have been referred, and which my own research has uncovered, reflect a gamut of sentencing dispositions in “home invasion” cases from as low as four or five years, to as high as eleven to thirteen years – with the suggestion that even higher sentences may be reserved for situations involving kidnapping, the infliction of serious injuries, sexual assault or death. Whether a “range” of that elasticity is of much assistance to trial judges in their efforts to preserve sentencing parity for similar offences involving similar offenders – apart from signalling that a significant penitentiary jail term is generally called for – is not clear to me.  The downside of attempting to articulate a range for a type of crime that can manifest itself in such a wide variety of ways, and be committed by such a wide variety of individuals, is that the “range” becomes so broad, it is virtually meaningless.  Nonetheless, to the extent there can be said to be a range in home invasion cases, it would appear that the one that currently exists is the expansive one outlined above.

In my view, however, “home invasion” cases call for a particularly nuanced approach to sentencing.  They require a careful examination of the circumstances of the particular case in question, of the nature and severity of the criminal acts perpetrated in the course of the home invasion, and of the situation of the individual offender.  Whether a case falls within the existing guidelines or range – or, indeed, whether it may be one of those exceptional cases that falls outside the range and results in a moving of the yardsticks – will depend upon the results of such an examination.  I agree with the British Columbia Court of Appeal in A.J.C. (at para. 29), however, that in cases of this nature the objectives of protection of the public, general deterrence and denunciation should be given priority, although of course the prospects of the offender’s rehabilitation and the other factors pertaining to sentencing must also be considered.  Certainly, a stiff penitentiary sentence is generally called for.

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  • Lord Kitchener's Own

    This is why we have to get rid of Statistics Canada. How are politicians supposed to ply their trade if the citizenry are constantly comparing their public pronouncements to reality???

    • Olaf

      I'm all for taking a swing at Day (which John appears to have done admirably here) but can we please stop with this? No one is "getting rid of Statistics Canada". And crime statistics aren't based on information collected from the long form census. Maybe you're being cute, which is fine, but on the assumption you're being serious, can you explain how this makes sense?

      • Lord Kitchener's Own

        I never said we were getting rid of Stats Canada, I'm saying this is precisely why we SHOULD get rid of Stats Canada.

        I also refuse to explain how anything I say makes sense until someone can find me a federal Cabinet Minister who makes any sense whatsoever.

        THAT said, I'm all for keeping Stats Canada if we also replace the CABINET with drunk monkeys.

        • Olaf

          Right, so you were being cute. Fair enough. And your personal policy regarding only explaining how your comments make sense on condition that a federal Cabinet Minister does likewise strikes me as sinking to the lowest common denominator, but that's your call. :)

          • Lord Kitchener's Own

            It's true, I should hold myself to a higher standard. :-)

          • Jan

            I couldn't agree more Olaf, what if we all sank to the level of current federal Cabinet Ministers? We must retain certain standards during this dark period. Let's not let them drag us down.

        • captcold

          I thought the Cabinet is already full of drunk monkeys. Or maybe sober monkeys. But monkeys nonetheless.

          • http://intensedebate.com/people/YYZ YYZ

            Such an insult to monkeys.

          • Olaf

            And drunks.

      • http://intensedebate.com/people/PolJunkie PolJunkie

        "I'm all for taking a swing at Day (which John appears to have done admirably here) but can we please stop with this? No one is "getting rid of Statistics Canada".

        Of course not. There's no need to be rid of StatsCan when you can do just as much damage by just corrupting the data it puts out. While I do believe that a good number of Harperites aren't too bright, I don't believe Harper to be an idiot. He knows that pressing on with this voluntary census will affect the quality of the data.

        We are now down to the wire. If this new policy isn't reversed in time to save the 2011 census, that data will be permanently corrupted. Even if Harper is voted out of office and the next govt recinds this nonsense, it will be too late. We will be stuck with a data gap covering a 5 year span.

        The very fact that he insists on pursuing this says it all. It's either that or he's really an idiot who doesn't know better.

        • Holly Stick

          Yes; it's either the Harper hidden agenda or stupid and arrogant Harper.

          Meanwhile a fine blogger makes the connection between Day's medieval thought and his invisible crimes and Malory, Philip K. Dick and The Crucible:

          "…We saw this logic in practice in Toronto. Invisible laws, invisible crimes. Real people, in real cages, with real beatings…"
          http://thegallopingbeaver.blogspot.com/2010/08/do…

        • bonneau

          Harper knows exactlly what he wants to achieve by pursuing the census reform, and it is exactly as you state, that if it goes through we will at the very least be 'stuck with a data gap covering a 5 year span'.

        • Werthit

          Mr. Harper's trying to rewrite history by erasing it. Aren't the conservatives trying to do this in Texas, too? http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/editorial/698…

          A pre-emptive strike against invisible crime is not fiscally conservative.

    • up2no_good
      • Steve

        I am amazed that that video has 24,000 views in the last 3 days. That has got to be one of the highest ranking Canadian politics videos on youtube!

  • Emily

    They sent back Statscan data?? LOLOL

  • wsam

    You all hate the troops. Seriously. Stop the hate.

  • http://intensedebate.com/people/Jenn_ Jenn_

    Excellent reporting. That's the sort of thing we want to see. Thanks very much.

    • Olaf

      Agreed. For some reason, this government feels the need to embellish the evidence for their arguments to the point where they're flat out lying. I'm sympathetic to many of their crime initiatives (broadly speaking), but when they start lying to prove a point, we part company.

      • Kaplan

        Also agreed. Reporting as it should be done. If only certain political reporters and columnists at the Globe – I'm looking at you, Jane Taber and Christie Blatchford – could employ even an ounce of Geddes research and critical thinking skills, we'd be in far better shape, and might even have a government thank thinks twice about lying to our faces.

  • http://intensedebate.com/people/RunningGag RunningGag

    See, this is what we are talking about. The Lamestream Media going around, checking facts, and getting in the way of Government speculation.

    Mr. Geddes is clearly aiming for a Liberal Senate seat. For shame.

  • Emily

    New talking points are out….I'll give you 3 guesses.

    Data doesn't matter, feelings do.
    http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/politics/otta…

    • frobisher

      Feelings? Nothing more than feelings?

      Pre-crime is up. And the plaid unicorns are lovely this time of year. We must address the former so real Canadians can enjoy the latter.

      Anybody have a gut sense that this government is seriously rucked up?

      • Emily

        'Pre-crime'…..LOL I love that.

        Stock's version of the Thought Police no doubt.

      • http://intensedebate.com/people/PolJunkie PolJunkie

        Pre-crime…. LOL!

      • Olaf

        'Pre-crime'….. ROFLMAOLOOLLLLLLLLZZZZZEEEES!!!

    • hosertohoosier

      That is an interesting position for you to take, considering that you A. didn't consult the data yourself and B. that the data supports some of what Day has been saying.

      1. Reporting rates are declining: http://www.statcan.gc.ca/pub/85-002-x/85-002-x200… (see page 17)
      2. Violent criminals ARE given conditional sentencing, including 2,767 criminals guilty of crimes against the person (and that does not include data from Quebec). http://www.statcan.gc.ca/pub/85-002-x/2010002/art…

      • Emily

        If you're talking to me, no data supports Stock, so don't even go there.

        • hosertohoosier

          I provided links to data that supports what Day is saying. If the sin of Conservatives is to act without facts, then the sin of Liberals is to assume that the facts support them without checking. It sounds like data doesn't matter that much for you either – unless it supports your preformed opinions.

      • bennji

        1) So – people are not reporting crimes out of fear of increased insurance costs – not sure what more prisons will do with that.
        2) The %s of conditional sentences are relatively small compared to the % of those that result in custody (prison). The way that the "tough on crime" crowd go on and on about this one would think that the %s were much much higher.

        Off the top of my head, I can think of numerous situations as to why a judge, while sentencing, would look to alternates to prison.

        "A 19 year old, straight high 90's student if out with his friends at a bar. He has no past criminal record, and is looking forward to staring his pre-med program at Queens University. After a few rounds of beer, he builds up his liquid courage, and decides to call out another guy in the bar who has been making eyes at his long-time girl-friend. They head out to the parking lot to rumble, he stikes the other guy, breaking his nose. The bouncer on duty calls the police, they show up and charge him with assult. It goes to trail, the teenager is found guilty of aggravated assault………do you really think that he should be sent to prison, or should the judge have alternate forms of sentencing at his disposal.?"

      • ahm

        Are those 2,767 you quoted Offenders, or Offences? It is worth noting that the 2,767 conditional sentences for crimes against a person is 5.5% of the dispositions.

        • hosertohoosier

          It says guilty cases, so that may be offences. That said, I'm not sure that it makes sense to combine conditional sentencing with jail. Presumably the one is meant to be a substitute for the other. And if we are talking about large numbers of repeat offenders who get two charges in a year, I am not sure that is a strong point for the rehabilitative effects of conditional sentencing.

  • Anon Liberal

    There you go again messing things up with all these "facts". Who am I going to trust? Your facts or Stockwell Day's gut? COME ON!

  • http://intensedebate.com/people/canon70 canon70

    It was convenient that Justice Minister Rob Nicholson was able to announce today that the Conservative government has quietly boosted police powers to target gambling, drug trafficking and prostitution activities by organized criminal gangs.

    • Jan

      Operation Round Up The Small Fish. Way to go Rob.

    • Richard

      Wow. This vendetta against Rahim and Helena never ends, does it?

    • steve mcentee

      I am glad that he did announce more measures to help the police combat crime.Why in the hell would anyoone not want this?Unless you are a criminal.

      • http://intensedebate.com/people/YYZ YYZ

        Indeed! We should triple the budget — maybe quintuple it! How can anyone be opposed to these additional measures???

        Also I suggest we add a million firefighters to Canada's firefighting brigades. More firefighters = a good thing.

  • Gary

    Professor Pliny Hayes, Chair of the Department of Natural Sciences at Red Deer College, reported that Mr. Day said in a speech at the college that there is scientific proof that the world is about 6,000 years old and that early man co-existed with dinosaurs. He is a wing nut like the balance of Harper's creationist cabinet. A treasury board president that believes in the Flintstones is pretty scary.

    • Emily

      Claiming science backs up his religious beliefs, and Statscan backs up his gut….Stock sinks slowly into the La Brea tar pits….

  • http://intensedebate.com/profiles/michaeltripper michaeltripper

    Thank you for this serious reporting!

  • Katherine

    Excellent fact checking, thank you.

  • http://intensedebate.com/people/Twisted_Mentat Twisted_Mentat

    This is kind of scary.

    Maybe I'm too young to fully recount previous administrations, but it deeply perturbs me that such an important minister could just lie about statistics/facts in such a bald-faced manner. I've seen ministers "massage" data into their message, but I think this is revealing a trend.

    I wonder… if a journalist was to go back and look at issues as discussed by Conservatives vs their correlating statistics and the like… I wonder what they'd find?

    • frobisher

      Look, son/miss. You want to examine…the past? This government only moves forward. In a Forward Action Plan®. There's no time for reflection, especially of the numerical sort, Not right now. And especially not in the future. Which is assuredly bright!

      Real Canadians® can smell the truth. Through their guts. It smells like prison. Once you figure that out, you'll be okay.

      • http://intensedebate.com/people/McC_ McC_

        that's a bad sign for the truth, because I can assure you that a max security prison smells really REALLY bad.

    • hosertohoosier

      1. There are still thousands of violent criminals who are sentenced with conditional sentencing – including some that committed homicide.
      2. As for Liberal lies… of the top of my head:
      -The Liberals hid massive cost overruns on the gun registry
      -Paul Martin hosted an environmental conference in which he bashed the US record, while not mentioning the fact that Canadian emissions were up 25% since he took office
      -The Liberals regularly kept two sets of books on the deficit, so they could have larger than expected surpluses to play around with for pet projects
      -The Liberals broke a number of promises – including axing the GST, renegotiating NAFTA and universal child-care (the limited program begun towards the end was hardly universal)
      -Didn't do their homework on the Sea King issue, costing Canada thousands of jobs
      -And then there's Adscam

      • Kaplan

        Adscam! Because when you're losing the argument, Adscam! brings you right back in.

        Adscam!

        • hosertohoosier

          1. How am I losing the argument. I have provided data that directly refutes the claims of the other side.
          2. Are you saying that Adscam is not a legitimate case of government dishonesty and lies?

          Like Stockwell Day, you are cherry-picking facts and reality because you want to make sure everything conforms to your establish world-view. I realize Conservative politicians tend not to argue on the basis of reason. This has made people like you intellectually lazy.

      • http://intensedebate.com/people/LynnTO LynnTO

        So Liberals' past lies justify Conservatives' fudging? Seriously, let's hold these guys to a higher standard.

        (By the way, consumption taxes like the GST are a major source of government revenue that, if held constant, would have gone a long way to reducing our current deficits.)

        And yes, there are some violent criminals who receive conditional sentencing. By my reading, many receive conditional sentencing at least in part because they get 2-for-1 credit in pretrial time served.

        • hosertohoosier

          When did I say that? I was responding to a direct challenge that somebody couldn't remember a government that was as dishonest as the Tories. I agree that many of the Liberal lies worked out in the end. I don't even think Adscam was a big deal, but the point is that the Liberals weren't all that honest.

          • http://intensedebate.com/people/RunningGag RunningGag

            the point is that the Liberals weren't all that honest

            Agreed. But then, I think the Conservative Party gets more flak simply because they ran on the platform of accountability and transparency. The entire reason they were elected was because the electorate wanted a change, not more of the same nonsense.

  • http://intensedebate.com/people/PeteTong PeteTong

    The Conservatives have been in power for over four years! These references to times when the Liberals were in power are dated. What exactly have they accomplished in four years that is superior in terms of tackling crime than what the liberals accomplished before them.

    If crime is such a huge issue in Canada why does it rarely get attention at a municipal and provincial level?

    • http://intensedebate.com/people/Sir_Francis Sir_Francis

      If crime is such a huge issue in Canada why does it rarely get attention at a municipal and provincial level?

      Over to you, Olaf…. ;)

      • Olaf

        Does it not? Are there not debates about the level of police presence that is required? About what preventative measures should be put in place? Homeless shelters and affordable housing? Other social welfare policies that are meant to 'get to the root' of crime? The types of things that the provinces and municipalities actually have jurisdiction over? What else would you have them pay attention to that they don't already?

        The long and the short of it is that the federal government sets the criminal code and sentencing provisions (mins and maxes), and the Supreme Court and other Courts of Appeal generally set the sentencing guidelines (or at least the outer bounds beyond which is unacceptably harsh), and municipal and provincial politicians have no say over the acceptable range of sentencing that the judges decide upon.

        In short, I really don't understand this argument, but I'm open to the possibility that that is my own fault.

        • http://intensedebate.com/people/E_B_ E_B_

          But, why is it that I am getting the uncomfortable feeling that the present government is making decisions based on reading entrails, tea leaves, and wisps of fog and smoke? They really do appear to be afraid of real facts and data.

          How do you debate a group of people that make stuff up as they go along?

          • Jan

            You can't debate them. This is why the committees are so dysfunctional. All you can do is call them out on it.

          • Olaf

            But, why is it that I am getting the uncomfortable feeling that the present government is making decisions based on reading entrails, tea leaves, and wisps of fog and smoke?

            How should I know why it is that you're getting a feeling? And if you want to debate someone, specifically my comment that you responded to, I can assure you I don't make up stuff as I go along.*

            * Note: I have been known to make things up beforehand however so… caveat lector.

  • http://intensedebate.com/people/Sir_Francis Sir_Francis

    What Day said looks to be an unfounded attempt to exploit public outrage over crime in general….

    Oh, those cheeky Cons. What will they think of next?

    • http://intensedebate.com/people/janicemaerose Janice Rose

      Trying to get a tea party movement going.

      • http://intensedebate.com/people/Sir_Francis Sir_Francis

        Done and done. The CPC's anti-coalition rallies gave us a spontaneous Tea Party avant la lettre.

        And a good thing, too. You can't have duly elected Members of Parliament getting together and forming a government. That kind of thing can only lead to fascism.

  • http://intensedebate.com/people/TJCook TJCook

    The Conservative Party of Canada: we're not just wrong, we're pointedly, specifically, demonstrably wrong.

    • http://intensedebate.com/people/Dubh Dubh

      On purpose. Are we getting close to sociopathy?

    • Olaf

      At least previous governments had the common courtesy to fudge the numbers and make ambiguous claims such that they couldn't be proven pointedly, specifically, demonstrably wrong. Ahhhh, those were the days.

      • http://dredtory.blogspot.com/ Sir_Francis

        At least previous governments had the common courtesy to fudge the numbers….

        More to the point, at least previous governments had some numbers.

        Now, we get projections and analyses based on the angle of Neptune's entry into Sagittarius.

        • Olaf

          That's the thing, it would have been SO easy (were there such an example, which I'm sure the justice department could have found within minutes) to say "for example, Geraldine Q. Canuck, 108 years old of Portage La Prairie, had her home invaded on July 1 2005 (Canada Day and her birthday!). She was assaulted, her prized teapot collection was stolen, her cat was raped – and the convicted criminal was sentenced a trip to a day spa". Or whatever. I mean, there are some outrageously lenient sentences that crop up once in a while, and he certainly could have at least appealled to emotional, anecdotal evidence. It would have been nauseating and misleading, but at least not plain wrong.

  • NorthernPoV

    Excellent post. Too bad it only shows up in in the blog-backwaters of CDN politics.

    When a minister lies so blatantly (esp. when it is in defense of misguided policy) it should be front page headlines. But alas, the swing voters are asleep and very vulnerable to this rhetoric when the media is co-opted.

    These noodniks are going to pull this off (building and filling new prisons, killing all good gov't such as the census) – just like the prorogation battle ended in Iggy whimpers as he caved on the detainee issue and left Harper with a giant Cheshire-cat-smile.

    • http://intensedebate.com/people/Sir_Francis Sir_Francis

      When a minister lies so blatantly (esp. when it is in defense of misguided policy) it should be front page headlines.

      Heh. You want virtually every ministerial press release to be front-page news?

    • http://intensedebate.com/people/novagardener novagardener

      Check out National Newswatch today. Even some of the Sun & Canwest journalists are stymied by this government's reasoning regarding the census and building of more prisons.

  • Lizz

    Good reporting.

    This issue and the census fiasco have successfully taken the G.8/G20 over spending off the front pages.

    • http://intensedebate.com/people/Dubh Dubh

      So now that money can be laundered for building prisons!

      • http://intensedebate.com/people/janicemaerose Janice Rose

        Hmm, the need for BIG security at the G20; the need for BIG prison systems. This sounds like the Republicans; there's huge corporate greed and conflicts of interest surrounding this in the US. I wonder if the Cons have friends in the security industry here in Canada?

        • burlivespipe

          Perhaps some other on-duty journalist could dig into the people who are behind privatized prisons in Canada, and see which party they are supporting. See who the presidents, CEO, important big-wigs are and if they are donating to a cause. Every Canadian has a right to donate and support their political cause of choice. But most of us aren't expecting any single-sourced monopoly to be handed to us on a silver handcuff.

          • http://intensedebate.com/people/janicemaerose Janice Rose

            Yes, this would be a good investigative journalism topic. John Geddes and Paul Wells would be up for the task! Are you guys paying attention here at MacLeans?

    • Dave

      The rioteers made the overspending an unissue.

  • Out There

    The Conservative approach these days is to yell their version of "truth" loudly and repeatedly and hope that people believe it.

    Unfortunately, those pesky journalists, and those inconvenient facts from Statistics Canada, keep getting in the way. Darn them!

    • hosertohoosier

      And the approach of others, including those pesky journalists, is insufficient fact-checking.
      http://www.statcan.gc.ca/pub/85-002-x/2010002/art…

      -742 people convicted of breaking and entering were given conditional sentences
      -1,114 people convicted of major assault were given similar sentences
      -Even 2 people convicted of homicide were given conditional sentences

      Was the case Day used misleading? Sure. But Geddes seriously understates the prevalence of conditional sentencing.

  • hosertohoosier

    Sorry, property crime link was screwed up. See here: http://www4.hrsdc.gc.ca/auto/diagramme-chart/stg2…

  • hosertohoosier

    How about this: http://www.statcan.gc.ca/pub/85-002-x/2010002/art…

    Day claims that people guilty of home invasion could get conditional sentencing. Here is the % getting CS by crime (I didn't do all of the crimes, just some highlights)
    Crimes against the person in general: 5.5% (about 2700 cases)
    Homicide: 1.6%
    Major assault: 9.4%
    Sexual Assault: 15.2%
    Crimes against property: 5.8%
    B&E: 9% (I assume home invasion is B&E)
    Drug Trafficking: 31.9% (this was the most common one)

    So, again, conditional sentencing is used in a minority of crimes, but some of them are fairly serious, violent crimes.

    This data is a bit more dated, but it also has more information, such as what the conditions are, and more detailed breakdowns: http://dsp-psd.pwgsc.gc.ca/Collection/Statcan/85-…

  • hosertohoosier

    1,190 for all people convicted of drug possession (separate from trafficking) in 2008/9. I am inclined to believe that very few of these were taken in for marijuana possession. That represents 14.7% of those convicted for the crime. http://www.statcan.gc.ca/pub/85-002-x/2010002/art…

    • http://intensedebate.com/people/Crit_Reasoning Crit_Reasoning

      Based on these numbers, what's the likelihood that a Canadian who is caught doing nothing more harmful than "growing a few marijuana plants" will end up in prison?

      • hosertohoosier

        I can't figure that out from the numbers – but the mean sentence for drug possession is 19 days. So even if all 1,190 were marijuana users, we are talking about 62 prisoner-years worth of jailtime (ie. so something like 62 cells freed up).

      • http://intensedebate.com/people/LynnTO LynnTO

        If I were to hazard a (not so random) guess: They're the ones who would probably receive the conditional sentences, if they co-operated with police in targeting larger dealers and traffickers.

  • Anon 001

    John Geddes, why are you taking Stock Day seriously? When has the real-world reality ever been the same as "Day’s version of reality?"

  • jade_lee

    B and E can occur on any property and not specifically a person's home. Just another example of how this current government thinks it's smarter than the majority of us Canadians. Perhaps people who slander the capacity of our judges should go spend some time in a court room and listen to the facts presented to our judges and juries. My real concern of late is how people in positions of authority appear to be treated too fairly in our legal system when they are charged with criminal offenses. I would love to see some stats on cops who do not get convicted of the serious charges they face. For example, shooting people in the back, taking bribes and killing people at airports don't register convictions if you are a cop it appears.

  • http://intensedebate.com/people/tobyornotoby tobyornotoby

    I feel like it would be piling on to make any sort of comment at this point.

    • Emily

      Yes Stock, as usual, is drowned by reality.

      I'd feel sorry for him except he's such an ignorant POS.

  • hosertohoosier

    Also useful to know (from page 15)

    % Breaching Conditional Sentence, by crime (in Alberta)
    Serious violent offenses: 29%
    Sexual offences: 12.2%
    Common assault: 28.9%
    Robbery: 39.1%
    B&E: 40.7%
    Traffic offences: 17.6%
    Drug offences: 22.1%

    Average: 25%

    • hosertohoosier
    • http://intensedebate.com/people/LynnTO LynnTO

      I'll contextualize that somewhat by noting that conditional breaches can be based on things entirely different from the crime of which the individual was first convicted – drug posession, DUI, leaving the jurisdiction, associating with other felons, etc, could reasonably all be a breach of conditions for someone given a conditional sentence.

    • Olaf

      I believe that 'home invasions', as the term is normally used, are those B&Es that take place when the residents are at home, and when the accused knows (or should know) that they're there. So where a B&E can be a teenager getting up to no good, or the hamburglar, a 'home invasion' is forcible entry into someones home in the knowledge that they are there. It is rarely done merely for the purpose of theft, as you'd probably prefer the residents aren't at home when you're stealing things. They get all uppity about it.

      • Pat

        Not quite. A home invasion involves a robbery, which includes the threat or use of violence. A break and enter does not have to involve violence, even if people are home.

        • Olaf

          A home invasion can involve robbery or not. I think my definition stands "a 'home invasion' is forcible entry into someones home in the knowledge that they are there".

          Although no formal definition presently exists, a ‘home invasion’ is generally thought to
          be different from a break and enter in that there is premeditated confrontation with the
          victim with the intent to rob and/or inflict violence on the occupants of the household.

          CCJS

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