Beyond The Commons

Aaron Wherry covers all the goings-on in and around Parliament Hill. Follow Aaron on Twitter: @aaronwherry

Categories: Beyond The Commons, Capital Read

This day and age

by Aaron Wherry on Tuesday, August 10, 2010 11:28am - 0 Comments

Five weeks after his government’s decision was announced, the Prime Minister explains the move to a voluntary long-form census.

“This has detailed personal information that is being sought by the government,” he said. “I know some Canadians will have some reluctance to provide that and I know some people think the appropriate way to deal with that is through prosecuting those individuals with fines and jail terms. This government will not do that. In this day and age, that is not an appropriate way to get the public’s co-operation.”

It does though still remain an appropriate way to get the public’s co-operation on the short-form census (here, for reference, is the 2006 version) and the census of agriculture (here, for reference, is the 2006 version), both of which still carry the threat of prosecution.

Tags: census, census of agriculture, long form, short form, Stephen Harper

More by Aaron Wherry

Stewart_Smith

I don't really think anyone should be surprised. It will be interesting to see how this plays out.

On a separate note, a soggy, 6 month old, onion ring has seen a statistician-ly significant surge in its popularity.

http://www.facebook.com/TheOnionRing

http://www.facebook.com/TheOnionRing John R

Don't forget greasy too. VOTE Onion Ring!
http://www.facebook.com/TheOnionRing

Lord Kitchener's Own

It's like they're a contractor working on three building for us, and they're telling us that they absolutely HAD to blow up building number one, because it had a leaky roof, and we're just supposed to totally ignore the fact that buildings number two and three have leaking roofs too, and not only are they not blowing them up, but they're not going to fix the roofs either!!!

Sigh

And they're replacing building number one with a new building that has no foundation.
Gaunilon

More like this: each building has a roof in danger of collapsing and therefore has safety issues. They've opted to demolish building 1 and replace it with a roofless set of taller walls. Buildings 2 and 3 have the same roof issue but are being left untouched.

Meanwhile, the rival contractors are arguing that the roof hardly every collapses and hurts anyone anyway so it should be left alone. And the reporters on the scene are busily gathering names and signatures against the demolition instead of fostering a discussion of the safety/cost/function issues at stake.

Lord Kitchener's Own

Better than my analogy in some ways, except that most experts seem to feel that there's no risk of the roof collapsing, nor any serious safety issues.

Gaunilon

The "safety issues" are "people going to jail". Experts? What?

tedbetts

It would be very interesting and illustrative to catalog other circumnstances in which the government threatens jail for failure to comply with intrusive state action. Aaron lists two – the short form census by everyone and the agricultural census by farmers. Clement has actually defended the mandatoriness – i.e. the threat of jail – of the agricultural census, so we know that Harper is lying here.

But what other examples are there? Jury duty is another example I can think of and one that is far more intrusive than a few people answering some questions once every five years. Tax returns would be another.

Does Harper think it is inappropriate to threaten jail here as well?

sourstud

Jury duty is remarkably easy to get out of. Basically, if you have any reason to not do it, they'll let you off.

Stewart_Smith

My guess is that more people have spent time incarcerated for skipping jury duty than not filling out the census, but in any case the issue is that nasty "threat of jail."

sourstud

I agree the issue is the threat of jail. But I think that threat needs to actually mean something, and should be saved for more serious "crimes". Many consider voting a civic duty, but I think few would support sending to jail, those who don't vote. I mean, you could apply jail terms to those convicted of speeding, and you'd probably see a drop in speeding offenses. That doesn't mean the law is right or fair.

Stewart_Smith

I believe there is universal consensus among all the parties and the stakeholders on removing the possibility of jail. Doesn't that render it a non-issue?
Standing By

Of course it's a non-issue. This rationale was invented after the fact, when the thing blew up more than expected.
Out There

If the issue was the threat of jail, they could just eliminate the threat of jail. Or am I missing something?

No one throws people in jail for committing parking offenses. But that doesn't mean that everybody parks anywhere they want to.
sourstud

Well, that's sort of my point. You don't need to threaten people with jail time to get the result your looking for.
Jenn_

Well, no, the threat of jail is there for an unpaid parking ticket . . . eventually.

Isn't it? I'm such a goody-two-shoes, I don't even know.
sourstud

I'm not so sure. I racked up $1500 in parking tickets back in the day. They eventually impounded my car, and charged me for the pleasure. I suppose if I'd never paid back the towing company, they could have probably sued me for what I owed in impounding fees. Never was I threatened with jail or any criminal charges though.

tedbetts

Since no one has ever gone to jail for the census, it seems Harper is very concerned about the mere threat of jail and considers that highly inappropriate.

sourstud

Yes, I agree, it is the inappropriate threat of jail time that Harper is concerned about, and is eliminating. I for one agree with him that the state should not be arbitrarily threatening the citizenry with jail-time when it has no intention of following through on that threat, especially when it's something as trivial as a census form. And I also think the threat of jail time should be removed from the short-form census, Ag census, jury duty, and most drug use.

Holly Stick

But no concern whatsoever for 1100 innocent people arrested and jailed during the G20.
sourstud

Where did I say that? You need to stop lying and putting words in people's fingers.

harrylimelives

It's the unreported jailbirds who got caught in the census 'attack-on-our-individual-rights' thing that Harper is looking out for…

http://bigcitylib.blogspot.com bigcitylib

BS.

I had to serve my time even though I was leaving on holidays at the end of the week. The compromise was–and I swear this is true–I had to show up and hang around, but whenever my section of the pool was called for a potential trial (because who knows how long these might last?) I was to hide in a corner and not participate.

And the coffee was terrible. I mean gawdawful.

sourstud

That's quite a bit different from my experience. I called the number on the letter, and simply ASKED what could be done if it conflicted with my class schedule (which was unknown at the time). The lady asked for my name and told me I was excused from jury duty. I protested (I actually wanted to do it, can't remember why), and she flatly refused.

Perhaps the difference is in provincial policy to deal with such things?

practical mom

If jury duty carries the threat of jail time, but no one ever goes to jail, then clearly, following Harper logic, that threat must be eliminated as well. Write your MP today. Or Twitter.

sourstud

Agreed.

Holly Stick

Funny, he was happy enough to actually jail 1100 innocent people during the G20.

sourstud

Stephen Harper using his super-sleuth-skills to take down 1100 ne'er do wells singlehandedly while Dalton McGuinty and David Miller stood by and looked on in amazement. Hehe, I actually kinda like that image.
Jan

Harper's concern seems to be with the threat. Actually jailing people – not so much.

madeyoulook

Given that no one ever went to jail before, and given, further, that the participation rate was not exactly 100%, the "mandatory" label was misleading advertising. So, naturally, declaring honestly the intention not to jail people (in keeping with past covert policy) is a war on quality data, and an ideological urge to make decisions on whims.

Or something.

sourstud

Agreed.

You'd also think that next year's census will have the highest return-rate EVER due to all of the publicity this silly issue has received. Not to mention all of the advocates that are up in arms about it who will surely be out canvassing neighbourhoods encouraging their fellow Canadians to complete this highly patriotic and vitally important duty. </sarcasm>

tedbetts

The return rate on the mandatory census is about 94%. Do you honestly think a voluntary return policy will come anywhere near that?

sourstud

No, I don't. But the real question is weather you believe threatening x% of those people with jail time is justified to bump up the return rate by x%. Personally, whatever x% happens to be, I don't believe it's morally justified.

Jan

But you don't mind threatening jail for those who do not return the short form. How do you square that?

ZestyMordant

Nope. Even if Harper reverses course and keeps the long form mandatory it will likely have the lowest response rate in history. Now that the faux conservatives have manufactured this issue, people who would have never thought twice about filling out the form before will now have "philosophical objections" to it. Harper has caused permanent damage simply be creating the issue in the first place.

sourstud

Harper wasn't the one who "made an issue" of it, I believe that responsibility falls squarely on the shoulders of Stephen Gordon. And making this an issue about "faux conservatives" is pretty far off base when civil libertarians like Warren Kinsella have come out in favour of the new policy.

And let this will be the first and last time I reference Warren Kinsella in a favourable light.

Mike Moffatt

I'm sure Prof. Gordon would be flattered.

But if we have that much power at WCI, why is it I can't get anybody to cut my lawn? Sure the median age of the kids in my neighborhood is 5, but still.
sourstud

Because those kids are smart. See, you already know their median age, it's just a matter of time till you start demanding to know their median annual income, and after that you'll want to start taxing the poor little buggers. The kids know the dangers of the census ;)
Mike Moffatt

How can they have any income? They're not out cutting my lawn! So where are they getting money? Only explanation is they're out committing unreported crimes.
sourstud

Lawn cutting is small potatoes. The kids these days are all into black-market unlicensed lemonade stands in your local back alley. Grass is they're daddies drug, lemonade is the new craze :)
ZestyMordant

When I say "made an issue out of this", I refer to Harper et al making the change in the first place. Who had an issue with the long form census before Harper decided to "react" to the apparent outcry?

I just can't stand the irony of calling Harper's party "Conservative". Real fiscal conservatives in this country must be wondering when they'll have a party that represents them.
Jan

Harper is the author of this bit of insanity. There's no way he can slither out of this. Definitely a fail on that one, sourstud.
http://worthwhile.typepad.com StephenGordon

I don't what to make of this. I make an issue out of a lot of things.
Sean

I, for one, had no idea you'd invented the entire modern science of sampling, survey reliability, and representation. Clearly you were just grinding a personal axe when you took Clement to task on his failure to understand their fundamental logic.

E_B_

But,

the effect of making it mandatory, and associating a penalty with failure to comply, is that most law-abiding citizens will comply just because it is the law.

Because most Canadians are respectful of the laws of the land, the fact there is a penalty becomes moot 99% of the time.

sourstud

Just because Canadians trust their government to what's right, does not justify the government abusing that trust.

Holly Stick

Stoopid Conservative argument. Hey, did you know Harper's CIMS knows everything about you, sourstud? No wonder you stick so close to the Stoopid Conservative talking points, for fear they will tell on you.

sourstud

I had no idea that a belief that government shouldn't abuse the trust of its citizens was a Conservative argument.. So does this mean that the left believes that it should abuse that trust?

tedbetts

The return rate on the mandatory census is about 94%. That is more than enough to provide accurate information.

madeyoulook

I agree completely with that. I object to the hollow and misleading "mandatory" label that, it seems, will be corrected to a more accurate "voluntary" label in the upcoming version.

tedbetts

There is a huge difference and we will see the results. Not only will return rates be way down but they will not reflect nearly as accurately the population demographics.

The very fact it is mandatory ensures that Canadians, good citizens that we are, will comply in far higher numbers. The very fact that it will be voluntary will result people not completing it and sending it in.

madeyoulook

You missed my original point. It never was mandatory. That was a charade to get us docile Canadians to follow along. The level of reaction implies that those "in the know" prefer to lie to the Canadian people to get quality data, or they don't get that the "mandatory" business was a lie all along. Kind of like Coyne's call for "mandatory" voting with no real enforcement provisions of any meaning.
tedbetts

I think you missed my point. By making it mandatory, even if only on paper, means Canadians will complete it. By making it voluntary, many many more won't.

And it is mandatory. As has been reported, census officials have followed up and enforced the rule, which they would not do if it was voluntary. Some have been fined. No one has been jailed which makes Harper's position quite ridiculous, but that doesn't mean it isn't mandatory. I don't know anyone who has ever been charged with jaywalking across a residential street but the law is there. The lack of using the most extreme possibility of enforcement does not make it voluntary.
Crit_Reasoning

I'll add that census workers spend hundreds of thousands of man-hours nagging people who don't turn in the long form on time, and their nagging is only effective because it is backed by the law, regardless of whether there's a realistic chance of being penalized.

Andrew (not PorC)

It is mandatory in the sense that StatsCan has a right and a mandate to follow up and coerce (think synonym to 'coax' not force) people to complete the census. With an elective census, there is no power or mandate to coax people to complete the census, and I expect response rates to be in the 30s% range, and the data to be absolute garbage.

Richard_S_Argent

I'm amazed at how brazenly Harper has swatted away the opposition's compromise or removing the threat of jail for non-compliance. There is literally nobody in the country (except in the PMO) who thinks that this is a good idea, and yet he barrels on.

I'm beginning to think that he wants a Fall election.

Stewart_Smith

The first clue was he has been emphasizing that Canadians don't want an election but that the opposition is trying to force one.

OntarioTown

And the noun, verb, adjective coalition (reminds me of Guiliani and Biden's statement about him – noun, verb, adjective 9/11)

PolJunkie

All the brouhaha around the census will be small potatoes compared to what the upcoming AG report on the stimulus spending will unleash. Unless, of course, the press gallery sleeps straight through that one.

Will Stockwell be the point man on this one? That would be fun.

tedbetts

He can tell us all about all the unreported examples of the Conservatives actually being accountable.
Mike514

That's real classy. Does he have a burning cross on his front lawn too?

Silly_Walks

Clearly he wouldn't put it on his own front lawn. Duh!

OntarioTown

I should have spelled it out but for some reason each letter typed took forever to show up.

Korn Kob Kory – get it.

PolJunkie

That was such a clumsy and desperate move I laughed out loud. It might have gone off better had they fed those details to a different news outlet. Sun Media is working overtime, trying to divert the rest of the MSM's attention from the census issue.

If anything, I'm thinking that this particular covert act will get the media to pay closer attention to the AG report.
sourstud

Wow, must be a Liberal to be accusing people of being part of the KKK with no basis whatsoever. You should be ashamed of yourself, because it's people like you who dumb-down the political discourse in this country. Disgusting.

Jan

That was sarcasm I take it, sourstud?

sourstud

No, I think people that arbitrarily accuse those they disagree with of being KKK/Nazi/Al-Queda are intellectually bankrupt and do a disservice to all sides of an honest debate.

Andrew (not PorC)

Does the people who coined the name "Taliban Jack"?
OntarioTown

Oh, like Commies, fasciists, etc.?
sourstud

No, I don't think that Commies and fascists do a disservice to debate. Communists still run governments, as do fascists. While the groups I mentioned above are pretty much historically know for nothing but pure evil, I wouldn't say the same about Commies or fascists. They're brutally misguided, for sure, but I wouldn't say that they're intrinsically evil.

Anon 001

Stephen Harper. The man and his genius. What will Canada do without this man?

http://intensedebate.com/people/Ottawa_Centrist Ottawa_Centrist

Elect a majority?

sourstud

True, with anybody else as leader, the Conservative's probably would have won a majority last election.

http://intensedebate.com/people/Ottawa_Centrist Ottawa_Centrist

I speculate the opposite. With anyone but Harper, I think we would have a Liberal minority. I just cannot see any of the current members of the Conservative party replacing Harper and expanding party support. Regionally, perhaps, some could… but not nationally.

craigola

Thrive.

Amateur Hour

Harper doesn't have to be logical or consistent … he's in the "decisive" business. Sure, he's decisively wrong and the more he protests, the more pig-headed he seems, but that plays well to his pig-headed base.

The bigger problem is that he and Tony Clement are planning on spending millions of additional (totally unnecessary) taxpayer dollars promoting the voluntary long-form census while simultaneously running it down as an invasion of privacy. On top of this, they are musing about scrapping the long-form census altogether.

So, according to Steve and Tony, the long-form is voluntary but we'd like your co-operation, though we think it intrusive and will likely terminate the program anyway.

Thanks for the leadership, Steve.

D-bag.

Stewart_Smith

You are not quite correct on the PR campaign. Apparently, the focus of the campaign is not about the importance of the census or the mandatory/voluntary issue.
The first ads will focus on the pressing issue of how many census forms Ignatieff missed while out of the country.

Amateur Hour

You're right. I should have seen that coming.

OntarioTown

Ya, like George W. Bush, the "decider".

wilson

Both the population count Census and Ag Census are required in our Constitution, or they would likely be on the chopping block too.

The next 'jail time' offence to get the Tory boot will be the Canadian Wheat Board.
Unlike the census threats of jail time, Ralph Goodale actually had farmers convicted, these dangerous offenders sold their grain outside the govt monopoly.

Of course the Liberals could insist that the jail time must remain,
and maybe they could insist too, that Eastern grain farmers,
not just farmers in the West,
should be punished when they sell their grain too!!!
There's a winner, eh.

TedTylerEzro

But… but… but… it's for their own good!

Even though farmers market all of their other grains outside the wheat board, in an amount that could exceed the volume of wheat or malt barley they sell in a given year. Even though farmers in Ontario have no problem making a living selling outside of the single desk marketing board. You'd think that farmers who stayed in business marketing grains would be considered to be experts, and would know best based on their operation whether it is to their advantage to stay with the wheat board or not.

wilson

You would think, that in this day and age,
farmers in the West would be free to market their own grain, without the government threatening jail time, if they did so.

You would also think, that in this day and age,
farmers in the West would have the same rights as farmers in the East.

Lord Kitchener's Own

You would think, in this day and age, that if a government felt threats of jail time are inappropriate that they could, I don't know, just eliminate the threats of jail time.
OntarioTown

Hmmm…George Bush asked John Howard (Harper's hero, former Australian PM) to dismantle their wheat board – Howard absolutely refused.

Now, in the US, because the big conglomerates are taking over, the small farmer is dying. People like Willie Nelson have been trying to raise funds to help them.

Careful what you wish for

sourstud

Ah yes, the infinite wisdom of Willy Nelson. Why hasn't he run for President yet? He's probably one of the smartest the Democrats could come up with. Willy 2012!
OntarioTown

Give your head a shake. I only mentioned him because he's popular amongst the country music loving folks and "stars" have a way of bringing in money.
sourstud

The country music crowd was also quite fond of George Bush.

Mike T.

Your post contains a lie.

The farmers did not go to jail for selling wheat outside the board (I don't know if the Act even allows for incarceration). they went to jail for refusing to pay the fine associated with their actions. there is an enormous difference.

Jan

Now you've ruined sourstuds story with facts. And he was having so much fun with it.

WDM

The Conservatives, of course, never ones to ignore our Constitution.
Lord Kitchener's Own

That they're required by the constitution may explain why the government is keeping them mandatory. It does NOT explain why the government is keeping a threat of jail time that's never ever been enforced.

wilson

As Mike above points out, if you won't pay the fine, the next course of action is jail time.

Silly_Walks

What is the point of issuing a voluntary fine?

burlivespipe

Your team has been in power how long? So when are they going to get around to such 'important' treacle, wilnut? Since their 'census' decision is going to cost Canadian taxpayers more money, and I mean MORE money once we start making policy/funding decisions of balky information, not just the Sunmedia ad-money handout, i'm guessing your other pet projects are low on the totem pole..

Olaf

Can I make a humble suggestion? That we not all rehash the census debate for the eleventy billionth time? Stephen Harper is an ideological hypocrite who hates truth and left/libs are a bunch of Stalinist social engineers who hate freedom. We get it.

Lets discuss something more original, like my delicious recipe for caramel walnut decadence dream bars!

John D

do they have chocolate?
ahm

So let's. How dreamy are they?
madeyoulook

Olaf, please note that you are not required to disclose the recipe, if you do not wish to. Your privacy is important to us.

Anon 001

I disagree. Olaf is required to disclose his recipe, else he'll be banished to the dark dungeons of Doug Finley's War Room where he'll be required to generate lamer and lamer talking points from dawn to dusk.

OntarioTown

Oh, oh, Timmies won't like the competition

Stewart_Smith

Olaf, Could you have a chat with Holinm. Both of you like to tell others when they have talked about a subject enough, and even helpfully suggest alternative topics. Somehow though, he gets whacked with the thumbs down, while your charm and clever wit carries you through. Perhaps you could send him some recipes to post.

Holly Stick

It's more that he is too longwinded for people to read his whole post.

Crit_Reasoning

Tell me about it. My lips get so tired after I read the first few sentences.

OntarioTown

Olaf doesn't want to talk about it anymore? Well, he can stay off the site – then he won't be talking about it anymoree.

Isn't this Olaf just trying tho think he's intellectually above us all and a sort of put down? We're not fooled by his attempt at distracting those he believes beneath him at all.

sourstud

I'm pretty convinced that you're beneath him.

Phil

Funny that, eh? As you say, similar content, but different styles, and totally different results in terms of how the message is received by others. A teachable moment indeed.

Crit_Reasoning

I'm puzzled why you think the content is similar, unless by "similar" you mean "somewhere to the right of centre", or "tired of talking about the same thing for the eleventy zillionth time".

Phil

You are correct with the second "guess" – similar, as in "nobody is paying attention/there is no point in talking about [insert topic here]/give it a rest/just relax and go along for the ride" is a recurring theme with hollinm's posts here at macleans.ca, and on this particular occasion Olaf is taking a similar approach.

Wrt "right of center", if forced to locate Olaf and hollinm on a one-dimensional political scale I would have to put them both on right, although I generally don't find those types of characterizations all that useful for my purposes. (A month or two ago someone linked to a two-dimensional political scale that I thought was interesting/much more "valuable".)

But beyond that, I have not noticed too many similarites between Olaf and hollinm. One of Olaf's most endearing qualities is that his stances regarding different tiopics don't seem to lend themselves to an easy stereotype.
Orson Bean

hollinm is pretty much a talking-point machine, IMO. Olaf is not at all. I glaze over hollinm's posts, while I read and tend to enjoy Olaf's.
Gaunilon

And here I thought all right-leaning commenters were just talking-point machines…

For those like Phil who don't like the 1D political spectrum (I can sympathize) here's a good 2D version: political compass.

And here, just for kicks, is where their test lands me: Gaunilon's political compass score.

Now clearly Political Compass is a right-wing nutjob site if a guy as far out in fascistan as I am lands that close to the centre. I just thought I'd make that observation before the next twelve commenters do.
Crit_Reasoning

That's an interesting test, comrade. Here's my score!
Phil

Guffaw!!
Gaunilon

I suspected it all along. This is what you really look like, isn't it?
Crit_Reasoning

That's a really good guess, but my online portrait is actually here.
http://nexusofassholery.blogspot.com/ Patrick_Ross

Bravo.
madeyoulook

http://www.politicalcompass.org/printablegraph?ec…

OK, anybody, tell me you're surprised…
JustinWordswrth

I'd always suspected you were a communist.

Here's mine
Phil

Thanks. Very nice!

Btw, that chart isn't the same one I was referring to, which is OK – I like this one better.

I ended up in the same quadrant as Ghandi, Mandella and the Dalia Lama (a milder version of those three gents), but not quite as centrist as you.
Gaunilon

You should read the "iconochasms" section.
Phil

Wow! That was entertaining! Knew a few, educated guessed a few, and missed a few where my first hunch was correct.

Definitely lots of surprises.

On a related note, earlier on today I did peruse the suggested reading lists for each of the four quadrants. Not sure that I've finished any of them, even though I know that I have started at least a few over the years. Could be a good retirement project, reading a book from each list in rotation.
Gaunilon

Yes, although it occurred to me that their reading list is all backwards. They should recommend books from the opposite side of the spectrum to each group, not from the same side.

Anyway, their system needs work – something is definitely wrong with a system that places me closer to the Green Party and New Democrats than to the Liberals or Conservatives.

But have you noticed how all the Canadian parties (and indeed the Senators of all 50 US states) land on a Lib-Left to Con-Auth diagonal in the "Region Specific" section? What's also interesting is that myself, MYL, and JW (and CR!) land on a near-perfect perpendicular bisector to this diagonal? In short, we are exactly "normal" to the Federal political spectrum in North America. I don't know what that signifies other than that we don't seem to fit in very well.
Phil

Wrt the reading list, in fairness to the website developers IIRC they did suggest that "we" might want to read some books that challenge our assumptions as well as some that give you comfort. And therefore my "plan" to pick from a different quadrant each time.

I was quite surprised to find that apparently the NDP is the best fit for me. Just looking at the completely empty chart I would have put myself almost right on the y axis, somewhat below the x axis. On that basis I retook the test and found that it was fairly easy (ie I was comfortable with my 'new' responses) for me to shift along the left/right axis, but apparently much harder for me to shift upward. Either way, interesting feedback.

You know, I can actually picture you voting for the Green Party in a few more years, after they have attracted a few "more credible" candidates and finetuned their platform a bit. And indeed, why no political parties in the quadrant that you inhabit? I demand better choices, for you and for me!

Edit: Oh, now I get it and CR!….I'm interested to see where he actually fits in.

wilson

Or we could discuss the reliable of StatsCan numbers in general.

Statscan's failure to accurately count teachers in summer casts doubt on employment plunge http://www.theglobeandmail.com/report-on-business…

Silly_Walks

Let us discuss the reliable!
Phil

Do you consider that to be a real problem, or are you mostly just taking a poke at cencus "supporters"?

If real, what could be done to rectify?
Lord Kitchener's Own

Gee, a widely acknowledged and well publicized statistical anomaly that everyone knows about and that StatsCan explicitly warns people about, coming from information compiled from a not entirely reliable voluntary survey.

That certainly puts a dent in the arguments against replacing a mandatory census with a voluntary survey!!!

wilson

''widely acknowledged and well publicized statistical anomaly that everyone knows about and that StatsCan explicitly warns people about''

like the warning StatsCan issued on data from the census long form regarding French language questions…..

Jan

They're nutbars, Olaf. You can try and dress them up but they really are just nutbars.

E_B_

Our town council is one of the organizations that has asked the Federal Government to re-consider this move.

I sent an email to our Conservative MP, asking her if she would acknowledge the wishes of those she represents.

The response I received from her office made it clear that I really don't understand this issue. The problem from my MP's perspective is that the media is trying to make Mr. Harper look 'mean'.

Bad media. Picking on poor Mr. Harper. Let's be clear folks, this has nothing to do with 200+ organizations who are against this moronic move. It has everything to do with the animosity between Mr. Harper and the media.

(How did my MP ever get elected? Sheesh!)

tedbetts

Know your place EB. Our political masters and betters have, in our own interest, decided what is best for us. We should thank them for not pestering us with consultation and making our lives easier by telling us and making decisions for us instead of asking us or listening to us.
LynnTO

I thought Conservatives were of the opinion that individuals were smart enough to make their own choices, and Liberals were of the opinion that people are stupid and needed to be told what to do.*

Your (alleged until published) response letter is blowing my mind.

*For the record, I do not endorse either belief personally, nor do I really believe that either statement is universally true.

Gaunilon

"It does though still remain an appropriate way to get the public’s co-operation on the short-form census …"

And that nails it. Before an argument can even be assessed on its merits, it needs to be self-consistent. The government's argument here doesn't even meet that prerequisite standard.
tobyornotoby

It's the worst case of delayed demagoguery, I've ever seen! He should get that looked at.
wilson

Examples of convictions under the CWB, Ralph Goodale responsible:

Gary Brandt, 33, of Viking, faced 62 days in jail.
He took a bag of wheat across the border, forgot about it and ended up carrying it back into Canada.

Jim Chatenay, 59, from Penhold, faced 62 days in jail.
He took a bushel of wheat to the U.S. and donated it to a 4-H club.

Ike Lanier, 72, from Lethbridge, faced 60 days in jail.
He trucked 300 bushels across the border.

Bill Moore, 63, from Red Deer, faced 131 days in jail.
He donated a bag of wheat to a 4-H Club, then took a half-ton truck of wheat across the border.

Jim Ness, 58, from New Brigden, faced 25 days in jail.
He drove 100 lbs. of barley across the border and donated it to the 4-H Club.

Rick Strankman, 49, from Altario, faces 180 days in jail.
He took 756 bushels of wheat across the border and sold it for $1.50 per bushel higher than the Canadian price.

Darren Winczura, 35, from Viking, faced 24 days in jail.
He drove a bag of wheat across the border.

Remain Calm

Does this have anything to do with the census? Or is this another attempt to change the channel?

Liberals bad! Ignatieff not a real Canadian! Socialists and separatists! Adscam! Adscam! Adscam!

wilson

It has everything to do with where the Cons are going with this.
Census, CWB, Gun Registry…….

Amateur Hour

Yes, Steven Harper must destroy any program that works.
Else, citizens might begin to have faith in good government.

wilson

Well if the CWB works sooooo well in Western Canada, why is it not mandatory for Eastern farmers too?
Holly Stick

Funny that the majority of Western Canadian farmers vote to keep the CWB over and over again.

And why isn't it mandatory for Eastern farmers? Because they don't grow much very much wheat. Go here, start on page 38 and look at the difference in the numbers for hectares planted in wheat, wheat production, etc. Roughly 90% is in the three prairie provinces, the rest in small bits scattered over the rest of Canada.

That was 10 years ago: probably Ontario is producing less wheat now,and more soybeans.
http://www.statcan.gc.ca/pub/22-201-x/22-201-x200…

Stoopid Conservative
TedTylerEzro

Hah! If you think actual farmers are voting to keep the CWB non-voluntary, I have a bridge to sell you. The elections have no oversight, no accountability, and you aren't allowed to show your displeasure with the massive corruption of the electoral process by voting with your feet. There are many voluntary agricultural marketing boards in this country, and because they are voluntary actually have to be responsive to the needs of their members. Since the CWB has its monopoly enforced by the state, there is very little reason to serve their membership. After all, if Farmers are unhappy, and the system itself is corrupt, what can they do about it?

As well, do you actually think the single desk marketing board actually influences world prices one iota? Canada is a small percentage of the global wheat market, and the Wheat Board is largely impotent to change the prices you would get. Hell, the wheat board doesn't even do much of the grain marketing anymore. The whole process is largely a matter of selling to the large grain companies through the CWB, and the CWB takes a cut for doing absolutely nothing.

The simple fact of the matter that no lefty is able to refute the fact that often other crops (such as canola) are sometimes grown in greater acreage than wheat in a given year, and crops under the wheat board (wheat and malt barley) represent only 10%-40% of the total crops a given year. Given that farmers are perfectly competent at getting a decent price for the other 60%-90% of their crops without the CWB, there is really no reason to assume that they need the CWB for wheat and malt barley.

Mike T.

The penalty for all these offences was a fine.

When the farmers got a little big for their britches and decided they were too important to pay this fine, that's when the jail time happened.

I think it would be appropriate to deal with the census in the same way.

TedTylerEzro

So how about we force you to invest your paycheck through a "investment board", which is half-public and half-private, then when you feel that you aren't getting any value for the money you invest, or feel you could invest it better yourself, you can fined if you decide to invest money outside of it as well.

I'm sure you won't find that to be an affront at all. After all, if you object to paying for the fine, you are just getting "too big for your britches".

Lord Kitchener's Own

Why does every example you cite say "faced" or "faces", not "served" or "is serving". Could it be that, as Mike T. suggests below, the actual sentences in each and every one of these cases was a fine, and not jail time?

sourstud

Does it matter if it was jail time, fines, or ice cream? The fact remains that western farmers are persecuted for selling the fruits of their labour, while farmers in the east face no such problems. I think everybody should agree that that's morally wrong. At least if you believe in equality, and such things.

Lord Kitchener's Own

It matters only if one is writing about it in response to a blog post about the government justifying a decision with reference to the injustice of the government's "threat of jail time" regarding statutes for which no one has ever been sent to jail. As has been said many times elsewhere, if the objection to the long form of the census was the threat of jail, then either you eliminate the threat of jail, or you make ALL the forms of the census voluntary. Making the long-form voluntary, but keeping the threat of jail for the short form and the agricultural census is literally the worst of both worlds. As myl has said many times, if they Tories had just decided to eliminate the long-form of the census all together they'd have a much better argument to make than the nonsensical stuff they keep trotting out to try to justify what they actually did.

sourstud

Liberals hate western Canada. It's as simple as that. We're just a resource base for them, and anybody who would stand in their way should be jailed. It's pretty simple logic, and it applies to the gun registry, energy policy and many other things.

Silly_Walks

I'm running afoul of Poe's Law here.

David_M.

Don't even bother trying. If the CPC want to alienate voters, then they'll leave generalisations like this to hang out there without rebuttal.

sourstud

Am I missing the rebuttal?
Holly Stick

As an Albertan I hate Stoopid Conservatives whever they live, espec`ially when they whine. Grow up!
sourstud

Wow. I think you need to lay off the booze.

Richard_S_Argent

Gotta little Kanye in ya I see!

Richard_S_Argent

Based on the website you took this list from, it would appear that you are being deliberately misleading or you don't know what the definition of "conviction" is.
http://farmers.farmersforjustice.com/index.htm

Sean

It's hard to sustain my hate-on for the Bloc when I keep applauding their ideas.
http://www.ctv.ca/CTVNews/Canada/20100810/census-…

Stewart_Smith

As soon as two people thumbs up you, I am turning you all in.

again

Sean

LOL! For what it's worth, I floated the same idea a few weeks ago. For a few seconds, I indulged in the fantasy that I'm influencing federal political discourse. Then I went back to scrubbing the kitchen floor.

Lord Kitchener's Own

Not only is it internally inconsistent to hold on to the treat of jail time for two census forms, while insisting that it absolutely must be eliminated for a third, isn't it also true that the central thesis of this government's "law and order" agenda is that we don't threaten people with jail time enough???

What's worse, that I can be threatened with jail time for not filling out the census, or that the government thinks it's fine that I be threatened with jail time for “participating in or contributing to” a criminal organization – even if said organization didn't get around to committing any crimes, I didn’t do anything to help it actually commit crimes, I didn’t know what particular crimes it might be thinking of committing, and I couldn’t possibly pick anybody else in the group out of a lineup.
Dee

It's getting pretty depressing having a government filled with pathological liars, including Harper.
oppo guy

Citizenship isn't easy.

Being a Canadian comes with both rights and responsibilities. Those responsibilities are sometimes difficult: paying attention during elections, voting, paying your share of taxes, and yes, filling out a census every few years.

Sure, it's tough, but think of the upside: you live in Canada!

Sounds like a fair deal to me.
John D

Don't forget the detailed private information the government forces the banks to hand over about you.
Olaf

In this day and age, that is not an appropriate way to get the public’s co-operation.”

I would argue that threats of fines and jail terms are the only way to get the public's co-operation, especially in this day and age.
Emily

Simpson today….."The long form will return. Voters won't " sums it up nicely I think.
E_B_

Well, they could try the carrot approach instead of the stick, I suppose.

5 Lotto Max lotterty tickets to everyone who returns a completed census. 10, if it is returned in less than 2 weeks. Fill in your census form, for a chance to win $50M dollars.

Canadians love lotteries…

(Seriously, any thoughts on how that would effect the results?)
Remain Calm

One thing that the census issue has pretty much scuttled for all time is the idea of Stephen Harper as a moderate. Does anyone recall the images of Harper wearing a sweater in a soothing shade of blue and attempting his closest approximation of a smile as he attempted to try to capture the middle ground and/or Quebec?

These days are gone now. The sheep's clothing has been discarded, and the ideological wolf has been revealed (to strain a metaphor to its breaking point). He's now hoping to gain a majority by growing his base (using what could be thought of as the Mike Harris Full Court Press).

Or perhaps he's given up on a majority, and is just focusing on implementing his own vision of Canada (which seems to involve a lot more soldiers and prisons, and a lot less of everything else, including information).

Either way, the sooner he and his gang of narrow-minded, power-hungry ideologues are driven out of office, the happier I, for one, will be.
Stewart_Smith

I think fairly compensating selected Canadians for the extra work of filling out the long form is an excellent idea.
Anon 001

Yes, and he was unusually vitriolic.
OntarioTown

WASHINGTON — With the 2010 census nearly finished, the government said Tuesday it will save $1.6 billion in the cost of the U.S. population count because of strong public response and no major problems.

The cost of the census was originally budgeted at $14.7 billion, with emergency dollars set aside for additional outreach in cases such as a natural disaster, a flu epidemic or a major operational breakdown.

Because such problems were not extensive, the Census Bureau saved about $800 million, officials said. The agency, which is a part of the Commerce Department, reduced another $800 million in costs due to a higher-than-expected mail response rate of 72 percent, as well as quick field work from census takers who visited 47 million homes of people who did not reply by mail.
OntarioTown

Like a special tax break or something
harrylimelives

How about just attaching a census questionaire to all tax receipts for donors of the Conservative party? Then we'd be sure that the government was getting the 'facts' that they wanted to use to make their decisions for the Canadian public…
Emily

I think at this point most people are PO'd….none of it makes any sense, and yet Harp is just bulling ahead….yet it does damage to the country.
Jan

Yes, FINCAN – where's the outrage from the so called libertarians over it?
DerekPearce

This is what Wells has been telling us for quite some time now. Harper, as long as he is PM (doesn't matter that it's a minority) gets to make countless decisions week after week, both little and large that inch inch inch the country in the direction he wants. And as each decision in itself isn't offensive to enough people to remove him from power, he succeeds. I've said it before, but it seems there is no final straw. It's interesting if disheartening.
Remain Calm

His decisions are offensive to more and more people. I, for one, am close to hopping mad.

But they're not offensive to his core base of roughly 30% of voters. (Some of whom, I am convinced, would support Harper even if he started hauling Liberals off to jail. Or perhaps especially if.) Canadians who self-identify as "conservative" or as non-BC Westerners will likely remain with the Conservatives for quite some time, while the rest of us watch helplessly as the country that we love is slowly being consumed by the Conservative ideology.

Things aren't likely to change until the lives of ordinary pro-Conservative Canadians are adversely affected by the actions of the Conservative government. For example, what will the Conservatives have to cut to pay for all these shiny new fighter jets and prisons? No doubt, they will attempt the same strategy that Mike Harris employed: cut programs and services for people who don't vote Conservative, and keep everything shiny and wonderful in Conservative and swing ridings. But that strategy will only be effective in the short term.

Things will eventually come to an end for the Conservatives – just as they did for Harris's PCs in Ontario and for Bush in the United States. Reality, and its inconvenient facts, will eventually force its way into the PMO cocoon. I only hope that the amount of damage that Canada sustains is less than what was sustained by our neighbour to the south.
Anon Liberal

I’d like to offer a dissenting opinion on the horror of a jail threat for not filling out the long form census. Filling out the census should be seen as a civic duty, yes, like paying income tax and performing jury duty. It’s one of the few things required of us as citizens for the privilege of living in this great country (and if you don’t think it’s a great country try Somalia for a few days).

The government should not have to threaten us with jail and fines to get us to fulfill this very simple duty but unfortunately way too many of us are either too selfish (what’s in it for me? why should I fill this out?) or too paranoid (they’re going to use this info to get me!) or too ideologically rigid (live free or die!) to recognize this basic principle i.e. citizenship is not just about rights but also participation and duties. So I say keep the jail threat and keep the fines if that’s the only way to preserve the statistical integrity of the census.
Terican

I saw another post today that had the novel suggestion of offering a tax credit for filling it out. Why does coercion have to be part of the deal? Any behaviourist will tell you that it is more effective to reward good behaviour and ignore the bad.

And I am still confused as to why the gov't cannot just change the penalties without throwing out the long form altogether.
Holly Stick

Because their stated reasons for destroying the long-form census are lies. Do you think Harper really cares about threatening to jail people after he had 1100 innocent people arrested during the G20? Do you think he cares about intrusiveness when his party keeps a detailed CIMS database so he knows things like who to send Rosh Hashanah cards to?

They want to destroy the census so they can cut social programs and lie about the effects while they do it.
Anon Liberal

Why should you pay citizens to do a simple task that will help their polity function more properly? Should we pay people to vote as well?