Inkless Wells

Inkless Wells

Paul Wells on all the latest out of Ottawa—along with the occasional post about jazz. Follow Paul on Twitter: @InklessPW
He also offers his thoughtful perspective of Stephen Harper’s last 10 years in his recent eBook, The Harper Decade.

Trivia

by Paul Wells on Thursday, August 12, 2010 9:58am - 0 Comments

Compare and contrast:

I’ve been mystified by Stephen Harper’s willingness to squander so much political capital on an issue as trivial as the long-form census. Only slightly less so by the media’s piling on, treating this as a matter of great national importance, and by the level of emotional investment so many apparently attach to census-gathering.

The opposition? They’re just reveling in the unexpected bounty of low-hanging political fruit, and Tory self-inflicted injury.

I don’t get it. It’s just not that big a deal – either way.

— Charles W. Moore, New Brunswick Telegraph Journal, today

Stephen Harper seeks to diminish or destroy the Liberal Party to replace them with the Conservatives as Canada’s default choice for government. His greatest challenge is to dismantle the modern welfare state. If it can’t be measured, future governments can’t pander.

— Blogger Stephen Taylor, July 22.

That’s the choice, I suppose. Either what the Harper government is doing with the long-form census doesn’t matter, or it does. Obviously Moore has a lot more company than Taylor does. Indeed, lately Moore’s company includes Taylor: since July 22 this whole business has gotten too hot for Stephen’s liking and in his blog and on Twitter he’s joined the nobody-cares crowd, arguing that this whole business is an invention of the “push media,” by which he means news organizations that cover a story he doesn’t like for longer than he likes.

But clearly Stephen Harper thinks it matters, because he has burned two useful ministers, Tony Clement and Stock Day, rather badly in advancing this little project. And I take Taylor’s July 22 post to be an example of the disarming frankness that makes him an easy guy to like. The whole post is worth a look. In his trademark prose style, Taylor describes Harper “integrating seemingly transactional initiatives into something transformative.” You see, the country is suspiciously full of “net tax receiving organizations.” Harper, Taylor writes, “has tried the ideological argument against these groups for years. But ideology is by its nature debatable; removing the framework of debate is his shortcut to victory.”

Removing the framework of debate? “If one day we have no idea how many divorced Hindu public transit users there are in East Vancouver, government policy will not be concocted to address them specifically.” This would be, Taylor adds, “a huge blow to the welfare state.”

This seems to me entirely more credible as a motivator than Clement’s and Day’s late-breaking concern for jackbooted census thugs hauling Jewish or many-bedroomed citizens off to the stockade for failing to divulge their pertinent information. And indeed, to say the least, there’s precedent for this analysis of the way things work, or could: that major social change happens incrementally and through stealth, rather than through the kind of romantic Thatcherite Big Fight for which some of my colleagues are so often nostalgic.

Indeed, Harper and his associates have for decades argued, with considerable accuracy, that comparable change-by-stealth was the preferred method of the Liberal party in power. Harper’s first chief of staff, Ian Brodie, wrote a doctoral thesis and book arguing that “the Canadian government” used the Court Challenges Program (since cancelled by Harper) to advance the agenda of “disadvantaged groups” in Charter challenges. Brodie cites Ted Morton and Rainer Knopff and their pioneering study of what they dubbed the “Court Party,” a loose-knit, like-minded set of “networks of activists and professionals” that “bring together social reform-minded professionals and academics in public interest groups, government departments, independent government agencies, the criminal bar, and the law schools.”

I think this next bit is key. “Morton and Knopff’s central observation is that the Court Party is a political minority in Canada,” Brodie wrote. “Electoral politics is therefore not an advantageous arena for them. The Court Party prefers to advance its agendas through institutions that are insulated from electoral politics. The courts, quasi-judicial tribunals, and the administrative arms of government are arenas where the Court Party’s professional skills and abilities can make up for their lack of electoral support.”

Electoral politics was, of course, advantageous to the Liberal Party of Canada during the early 1980s and most of the 1990s. But Brodie argues that Liberal governments very often preferred not to fight their social fights in the open (in this, by the way, he is joined by many other observers; Chantal Hébert made the same case often during the late Chrétien years). A little help to the Court Party’s assorted representatives went a long way. “The Canadian government has encouraged groups to litigate in Canada, particularly through the Court Challenges Program. It therefore casts doubt on the concept of the disadvantaged group itself.”

The purest expression of this line of argument on Parliament Hill came in 2003, from Opposition Leader Stephen Harper. Ontario judge Roy McMurtry had handed down his ruling permitting same-sex marriage. Harper argued the Liberals had plotted for a very long time to produce precisely this result. “They wanted to introduce this same-sex marriage through back channels,” Harper said then. “They had the courts do it for them, put the judges in they wanted, then they failed to appeal, failed to fight the case in court.”

But reporters protested: Roy McMurtry was a lifelong Progressive Conservative, appointed by Mulroney. “Well, he’s a former Tory,” Harper said. “But whether he’s conservative or not is a matter of terminology.”

Some readers will think this long digression into Supreme Court-land takes me pretty far off topic, as some readers did when I wrote a whole column pointing out that Court Party co-author Rainer Knopff and a similarly-minded colleague worked on the committee that picked the next governor general. The GG isn’t a court, the census isn’t a court challenge. But I think most readers will see how Harper’s longstanding fascination with “back channels” as a means for advancing the agenda of actors who constitute “a political minority in Canada” and for whom “electoral politics is not an advantageous arena” plays, not only in the census battle, but in much of what he has done as Prime Minister.

So, like the Stephen Taylor of three weeks ago, I believe the census fight is absolutely at the centre of what Harper is trying to accomplish as prime minister.

One last thought. Taylor is (was?) sure the ultimate goal of all this manoeuvering is to “dismantle the welfare state.” It’s entirely possible to suppose that, at least over the medium term, which could last decades and indeed maybe forever, the real result would simply be the realignment of massive state action to serve the electoral interests of the Conservative Party. If one day we have no idea how many rock-ribbed family-values farmers and small tradesmen of Icelandic, Ukrainian, Scottish and Irish descent there are between Kenora and Kelowna, it will be easy enough for Tony Clement and Stockwell Day to claim there are 147 million of them and every one needs a tool-belt tax credit and a little something extra to help raise the kids. That choice, of course, will come later. First Stephen Harper believes he must kick out the slats of the world the Liberals have been building since Trudeau.

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  • http://worthwhile.typepad.com StephenGordon

    It has never made sense to claim that killing the census is part of a program to dismantle the welfare state. It was built without census data in the 1960s and 1970s – just very clumsily and at great expense. A lack of data in the future won't stop governments from rebuilding it.

    • Mike T.

      Absolutely. The government won't have NO data, it will simply have less reliable data.

      • TJCook

        And debatable data – rather than everyone (no matter how grudgingly) agreeing that the StatsCan data is common ground, suddenly everybody's favorite self-serving dataset will need to be discussed and debated.

    • http://www.robedger.blogspot.com/ Robin_E

      I agree with what you're saying; a lack of data doesn't necessarily stop a government from rebuilding the welfare state. However, a lack of data could make it less likely that a future government will feel compelled to rebuild the welfare state. If some of the key statistics that buttress the arguments for the welfare state are not available, then they would be replaced by arguments from ideology and intuition, which would not be as strong.

      More importantly for the Conservatives, in the short term, some of the statistics that would be used to try to compel them to extend or maintain government programs will not be available.

      • http://www.jesserosenberg.com Jesse_Rosenberg

        It sounds like the theory is that imagined Liberal deficits come by a thousand programs, not big ones. So, yes, without census data caring Canadian pols could still, for example, implement a real anti-poverty program at great expense (even though it would pay off long term) (though it would be harder for researchers HERE, at least, to prove it). But they would be unable to micro target programs. I imagine the idea behind removing the ability to micro target would be that those programs are harder to remove because certain groups get attached to them, and so if you try to take them away, they won't vote for you (for example, I don't think we've seen a lot of moves to target francophones by this government…).

        I think there's a better case to be made that this is about hurting government's efficacy, which will, long term, turn people off of government, and off of the belief that we can achieve greatness together, and eventually into the "freedom loving" arms of the Cons.

    • Bryan

      Yeah, I'm not seeing how it's a "huge blow to the welfare state" not to know exactly how many divorced Hindu public transit users there are in east Vancouver. Most of the key planks of the welfare state aren't all *that* microtargeted – everyone gets medicare in basically the same way, everyone's kids can go to public schools, everyone employed in the conventional way pays CPP, etc. All it means is that the welfare state will become more inefficient at providing services to people that have special needs. Instead of a publicly-funded, unionized urban school board that uses census data to find out where ESL training is needed, we'll get a publicly-funded, unionized urban school board that has to spend money itself to find out where ESL training is needed! Not exactly the libertarian ideal.

      • Curt

        Bryan, I agree with your conclusion. I would like to add that Mr.Harper is slowly getting out of the provincial domain re: BNA Act.

    • Dan

      Huh? There was the same census data in the '60s and '70s as there is now!

    • http://twitter.com/SirWilfridL @SirWilfridL

      Stephen, if you keep making these rather interlligent arguments, I'm afraid the government will change its mind and then what? We could have a government that occasionally admits it makes mistakes, and will occasionally back down. And frankly, I'm scared of living in a world in which the goverment makes a mistake in policy and then fixes it. Deathly afraid.

      • http://twitter.com/SirWilfridL @SirWilfridL

        Also, I need to learn to edit my comments before you know, actually making them.

        Time for a drink.

    • hosertohoosier

      I agree that this could hardly dismantle the welfare state. However, it would strike a serious blow against group politics. The Liberals have historically viewed Canada as a collection of special interests, and pandered to enough of them to win elections. The Tories beat the Liberals at their own game with narrowcasting. What is critical about the census data is that it is broken down at the riding level. It is the only survey to be done in that fashion. So while I agree that it doesn't kill the welfare state, it does make it more difficult for small, strategically located groups to extract largesse from the state.

      Secondly, absent this data, the organizational advantages of the Tory party would bear some real fruit. In the kingdom of the blind, the one-eyed man is king. They have the kind of ground game that would enable them to get a fair amount of data, relative to the other parties.

      Finally, insofar as bad data would remain, the biases of a voluntary census would favour conservative interests – English people, old people and wealthy people are more likely to fill out the census (and I have already seen groups that plan on avoiding the voluntary census in protest – further accentuating those tendencies).

      • burlivespipe

        "…serious blow against group politics."
        That should mean 'serious blow against non-conservative group politics'.

        The meme of conservatives being individuals united by fiscal and social beliefs doesn't mean it's true. In fact, throughout history that group has been the most dominant and most powerful. But conservatives want the government to treat women who believe in equality, immigrants who believe in tolerance, and whole other swaths of individuals with common bonds, to be just a little less heard.

      • CndnRschr

        "Finally, insofar as bad data would remain, the biases of a voluntary census would favour conservative interests – English people, old people and wealthy people are more likely to fill out the census (and I have already seen groups that plan on avoiding the voluntary census in protest – further accentuating those tendencies)."

        At first glance, I'm not so sure this is the case as the seemingly most belligerent objectors of the mandatory form are those claiming intrusiveness and invasion of privacy and these tend to be right wingers and libertarians. Of course, they may be calculating that that this will be the effect (favouring Conservative interests) in knowing that the disadvantaged and recent immigrants will be less likely/able to complete the form, knowing full well that Conservatives will say one thing and do the other if it is in their interest. In which case, it’s a double insult to add to duplicitous irony.

        If the pundits truly think people don't care about this rather transparent attack on factual evidence collection and scientific process, why do they think that Stephen Harper is so recalcitrant over the decision? The public senses that something doesn't add up (and, unfortunately, if this goes through, never will) and listening to the hollow excuses from the Ministers defending it, can only assume this is a remake of Dumb and Dumber. Misunderestimating the public didn't work out too well for GWB in the end.

        • hosertohoosier

          Libertarians oppose being forced to do things, but are not opposed to voluntarism. Indeed, Libertarians must assume that private charities or voluntary cooperation can provide a lot of the goods provided today by the state, otherwise their position is untenable.

          For instance, in the world value survey people supporting increased private ownership of business (a reasonable proxy for libertarian sentiments) were a bit more likely to be members of charities (this did not include churches, which were listed separately) than those supporting increased public ownership of business.
          Private ownership: 24%
          Public ownership: 22%

          You can see this as well if you look at support for environmental action. Lets focus on people who strongly supported private ownership. If you ask them whether they would give part of their income to combat pollution, 72.3% agree. If you ask them whether they would support higher taxes to combat pollution, only 59.2% agree.

          Alternately, when asked if they were willing to fight for their country in a time of war, supporters of private ownership were much more likely to agree.
          Private: 63%
          Public: 56%

          As for census non-takers, Ipsos-Reid polled people on who would/wouldn't fill out the census. The poll showed that young people and poor people were less likely to fill out the census. (http://www.montrealgazette.com/news/canada/consensus+census+debate+Poll/3302580/story.html)

          • CndnRschr

            The question is therefore framed as: is a voluntary census useful and who should run it? I'd posit that the answer is that it is of very limited use since it cannot be proven to be truly representative. Without re-hashing the arguments, being willing to volunteer for something is not directly related to other characteristics of a population. I'd posit that many people who were perfectly willing to fill in the mandatory form, will actually forego the voluntary form – partly as a means of protest, partly because it is deemed less significant/accurate/of value.

            As to who should run the census, I'd argue that this is better done by government for the people as this is a proven way to collect broad data with nationally acceptable standards. There is a myriad of private polling companies but these largely either target specific demographics or ask narrow questions. Could they build a wide census? Sure, but are people more or less likely to be comfortable telling a private company their personal details than the government? The question is rhetorical since some would favour one and some the other, biasing the result either way unless the census is mandatory.

          • hosertohoosier

            I agree that a voluntary census is not useful. I am merely responding to the issue of who would be over or under-represented in a voluntary census. I have shown that people with conservative-leaning demographics are more likely to say that they would, and that right wingers are hardly less inclined towards volunteering. As to libertarians/right wingers being more concerned with coercion, a voluntary census isn't coercive, and anyway, it is pretty clear that almost nobody cared about the "coercion" of the long form until Clement used it as a post hoc justification.

            I agree that the government should run the census, because they are the only ones who can coerce people (because I support a mandatory census). I am merely suggesting that a possible factor motivating the census change is the fact that it will over-represent conservative-leaning groups. I am not making a normative argument, I am making an empirical conjecture about Harper's intentions.

          • CndnRschr

            I agree in your thesis that a switch to a voluntary census would tend to favour those who have a more Conservative disposition and the long form fracas has further enhanced this effect by turning off people who would normally have no problem filling out the long form but will not do so in future to protest Harpers move. So the prime minister loses (temporarily) a few points in polls and manages to sway future census data to a more Conservative viewpoint.

            Regardless of his motivations, the manner in which this has been rolled out should confirm to all but avid Conservative supporters that the current government values ideology over scientific facts (which are seen as inconveniences that keep getting in the way of their policies). It is so much easier to govern from the gut than the brain. Stephen Harper combines the two, however, by carefully calculating how to implement his gut feelings to maximal effect. The best athletes manage something similar. Michael Ignatieff tends to focus on his mind and perhaps that's what underlies his difficulty in communicating with passion. He lacks conviction, even when his message is spot on.

          • http://www.jesserosenberg.com Jesse_Rosenberg

            Your middle statistic highlights how out of touch with reality libertarianism is. All those people say they'll give money, but then they actually DON'T. Often not at all, and always not to the extent necessary. Remove the crazy global warming doubters, and this kind of thinking would mean the problem would magically solve itself through charity.

            And I think all the stats looking at people who prefer private ownership (a meaningless measure anyway) misses that a lot of those people are nutty Republican-Reformers anyway, so it doesn't mean they're all principled; it means they're pro-war.

          • hosertohoosier

            The person I was responding to lumped libertarians and right wingers together. My point was to illustrate that right wingers will probably still take the census in larger numbers. I agree that many people, in practice, would not donate their own money to solve environmental problems. That said, it would appear that those in favour of big government are less likely to do so (which may be precisely WHY they think it is necessary to coerce people into agreeing with them).

    • OntarioTown

      According to Harper's former advisor, Tom Flanigan (on Power & Politics last night), the census was never discussed, nor had it been an issue for the Conservatives in his 20 years involved in the Conservative party.

      I think there's over-analysis on Harper. He's governing by hate and paranoia, instead of for Canadians.

      This is disturbing to me.

    • Geiseric

      We're discussing this? I can only hope someone tries to use the hidden agenda defense with me in 3D.

  • http://myblahg.com Robert McClelland

    "If one day we have no idea how many rock-ribbed family-values farmers and small tradesmen of Icelandic, Ukrainian, Scottish and Irish descent there are between Kenora and Kelowna, it will be easy enough for Tony Clement and Stockwell Day to claim there are 147 million of them and every one needs a tool-belt tax credit and a little something extra to help raise the kids."

    Herein lies the flaw in Taylor's wet dream of getting rid of the census to aid in dismantling the welfare state. Without adequate statistics, any claim can be made by whatever government is in power to expand the welfare state conservatives claim to dread.

    • YYZ

      Absolutely true.

      Good policy making benefits from facts and evidence. Lots of policy making – including by this Conservative government – ignores facts and evidence anyway.

      And even if this is part of a diabolical scheme to dismantle the welfare state – we are in maybe step 5 of 10,000 – this government will be gone before they can achieve any serious victories on this front.

    • saskboy

      It's pretty baffling to an Ottawa-outsider that Stephen Taylor would get quoted as some sort of expert on what the Prime Minister is trying to accomplish. Clearly Wells has some kind of perspective that most Canadians are lacking.

      • Alex

        His perspective: he's an insider that knows Taylor, someone who knows the thinking of the PMO.

      • CndnRschr

        Or not (rather distant), as the case may be.

        • saskboy

          You beat me to this joke by at least 20 minutes. Great minds joke alike.

  • john g

    Finally, it is good to read a piece that is somewhat thought out, and more than just the previous 65 posts of other peoples' reflex outrage, reposted without any additional insight.

    But I agree with Stephen Gordon above. The left wing instinct towards expanding the welfare state is just as ideological as the right wing instinct to slow it down or ultimately destroy it. Not having great data has never been a roadblock to ideology on either side of the spectrum.

    Besides, if the thing is only done every 5 years, it wouldn't take much for a future government to put it back in place. So it hardly seems like an effective way of stopping the welfare state.

    • http://myblahg.com Robert McClelland

      Oh you gullible rube. There is no right wing instinct to slow down or destroy the welfare state. The right only wants it to exist in another form.

      • http://bigcitylib.blogspot.com bigcitylib

        I rather think both the nobody cares and the we're dismantling the welfare state arguments were for the most part explanations post hoc. Harper was throwing a bone to the small gov. cons/libertarians for sure, but probably did not put much brain power into understanding the consequences of his decision. If the idea really did come from Bernier, then you know by definition that it was half baked.

        Only afterwards, when the whole issue blew up in the gov's face, were these justifications manufactured.

        Dan Arnold tracks the genisis of these various arguments below. They all came AFTER the changes were made.
        http://calgarygrit.blogspot.com/search/label/Tony…

      • Mulletaur

        Yeah, the corporate welfare state. 'les Cons' want to save money on welfare for the poor and give the money away instead to all their friends. Same old Conservatives, same old crooks.

      • TJCook

        Exactly: "the real result would simply be the realignment of massive state action to serve the electoral interests of the Conservative Party."

    • Lord Kitchener's Own

      Of course, it's possible that the mistake you're making is in presuming that this can't be what Harper is trying to do, because such a plan is irrational and would almost certainly be ineffective. Whereas, to my mind, irrational and ineffective is precisely what this government is all about!

      (That might actually constitute "reflex outrage" on my part, so sorry about that! But what can I do? These guys are driving me absolutely BONKERS these days!!!).

      • john g

        I make no assumptions on what he's trying to do. I just agree with the ineffectiveness of it if that were it.

        That might actually constitute "reflex outrage" on my part, so sorry about that! But what can I do?

        Well if you email your comment to Wherry he might put it up as yet another "Here's somebody else who thinks scrapping the long form census is a bad idea. Make of it what you will" post. Because really, you can never have too many of those.

        • Lord Kitchener's Own

          I was actually soliciting advice on what I can do ABOUT my outrage, not WITH my outrage. Sadly, I feel the only thing I can do about my outrage is try to be patient while I wait for an election.

          • A_logician

            Try applying these thoughts:
            "Living well is the best revenge."
            "…mais il faut cultiver notre jardin."
            "In the long run, we are all dead."

            Oh, and take deep breaths.

          • madeyoulook

            I was actually soliciting advice on what I can do ABOUT my outrage

            Try Yoga. Oh, and you'll feel real swell inside if the voluntary long form arrives in your mailbox: you can go all guerilla-citizen on those evil Cons by answering every question truthfully. That'll learn 'em.

            Wow. I don't know about you, but I sure feel better already!

    • John W.

      It's not everything. It's just a little part of the grand plan. But a useful part as others are saying.

      • http://www.TheMontrealReview.com Roy Berger

        The mandatory long form census contains vital information that is of great interest to social scientists, business, politicians and the public in general. They will still require the information but may be placed in the position of paying for it. Strangling Stats-Canada would certainly be doing a favour to privately held information gathering companies who may not be committed to quality information and will most certainly lead to influence being directed by unknown agents with a dubious product. It's a continued bad pattern of music from the Harper Valley orchestra.
        Roy Berger Cornwall Ontario

        • http://worthwhile.typepad.com StephenGordon

          They pay for it already. Statscan makes everyone – including other federal govt departments – pay for access to their data.

        • Tryon

          Fine analysis, but remiss on just one point: the media itself is part of the Court Party. All those business groups, lawyers, and NGO's work hand in hand with the press to generate income and influence for themselves at the expense of the common good.

          • Sean
          • s_c_f

            Oooh, more statisticians weigh in. I guess this confirms that the statisticians inside statscan and outside statscan are similar.
            The statement appears to be somewhat for and against the government decision.

  • bergkamp

    "Removing the framework of debate? “If one day we have no idea how many divorced Hindu public transit users there are in East Vancouver, government policy will not be concocted to address them specifically.” This would be, Taylor adds, “a huge blow to the welfare state.”

    This sounds good in theory but not so much in practice. Does anyone believe we won't know how many "divorced Hindu public transit users there are" if we stop making long form mandatory? There are so many government agencies keeping track of info, it is just technocrats and their conceit that we can all be controlled if we just collect enough numbers/stats who are afraid changes.

    Provincial and Federal agencies keep track of people all the time, it is in their nature. You can't be divorced in this country without someone knowing about it, ethnic minorities are counted six ways to sunday by government agencies, and god knows how many cameras and other devices Van transit uses to keep track of their infrastructure and watch people. The Hindu woman on the subway will not be short of government attention, I can assure you.

    And I have not waded through changes announced by Clement last night in face of court challenge but it sounded like a lot of questions from long form would be moved to short form. Hardly sounds like dismantling of welfare state.

    • c_9

      "Waded through?" There are 2 questions. Not even a puddle.

      Yes, we know many other things, but not all in one place. Do you like the idea of all those agencies starting to share everything they know about everyone, with varying (and invariably lesser) privacy policies? I don't like that idea.

    • CAPS

      "You can't be divorced in this country without someone knowing about it"

      Well certainly one's spouse and all his/her friends would know as well as one's friends plus the children and in-laws, if any. And the next thing you know they are going to tell two people and then they'll tell people and so on, and so on …

    • Dave

      There are so many government agencies keeping track of info

      Name them.

      • madeyoulook

        If there is an agency NOT keeping track of any info, could we close it down at the next Budget? Please?

  • hollinm

    Interesting column. It has some validity because simply eliminating the long form census because of the threat of jail does not make for a rational argument. There is a larger question here which the media has missed either intentionally or they are simply being their superficial selves. I don't know if its eliminating the welfare state or not. However, there is something at play here which will only reveal itself over time.
    If Wells/Taylor is right and this is what the PM intends (reduce/eliminate the influence of the Court Party) he could not say this publicly. Otherwise the lefties including most of the media would certainly denounce the PM with even more vitriol.

    • zalmox

      No, this makes so sense. Harper's goal of reducing/eliminating the influence of the Court Party has been explicitly stated both by himself and those around him for years. It's also been argued for by them in much more detail than anything proposed by the opposition. And that's why they scrapped the charter challenges program – and when they did, various left-wing interests squawked and squealed as best they could (a few news articles, petitions, open letters, protests by a few organizations, etc), but no one paid any attention, because Harper's argument about the program was right – it was a backdoor program to empower radical left-wing groups with no substantial popular base of support. So, eliminating the charter challenges program was not only efficacious, but also had a clear link to the "court party". Wells' column does not establish the same thing for the census, and I don't believe that the argument was made by anyone around Harper previously either. With charter challenges there was no "hidden agenda", so to speak: it was very obvious what was going on. No big fancy explanations needed. So it seems like Wells is reaching in this post.

    • Mike514

      There is a larger question here which the media has missed

      The media cares more about some play that no one's ever heard of, and a useless public-opinion poll, than to be bothered to dig deep and ask important, substantive questions.

    • Phil

      If Wells/Taylor is right and this is what the PM intends (reduce/eliminate the influence of the Court Party) he could not say this publicly. Otherwise the lefties including most of the media would certainly denounce the PM with even more vitriol.

      Why would it matter what the lefties / media do?

  • Crit_Reasoning

    With all due respect to Stephen Taylor, I think his July 22 blog post is just one man's attempt to make sense of what is, fundamentally, a nonsensical decision. As Stephen Gordon points out above, it's silly to think that killing the long form census could be part of some rational, stealthy scheme to kill the welfare state.

    Let's not fall into the trap of trying to posit some kind of reasonable basis for this colossal blunder. By thumbing their noses at nearly unanimous expert advice, Harper and Clement have taken a sledgehammer to their own credibility. The damage they have inflicted on themselves far outweighs any ephemeral strategic benefits.

    • WDM

      Harper has done this quite a lot to himself when freelancing and ignoring the advice of his advisors. (economic update of 2009, census and to a much lesser extent, the national anthem).

      • westmalle

        I tend to agree: the census issue is both trivial and important. It's like a pre-season hockey game – it doesn't count for points but it is an indicator about how the team will play in a game that counts.

        The real season is now looming. On the "ending-the welfare-state-as-we-know-it" track, the arrival of MV Sun Sea will show how the Government will respond to large-scale illegal arrivals wanting to take advantage of that very welfare state. Consistent with Jason Kenney's patient work with second-generation immigrant Canadians, who are tending toward more conservative (and Conservative) views, and also with the general feeling among Canadians that the refugee determination system is the way for economic migrants and their people-smugglers to game our system to their advantage, I would expect a "hard" reaction.

        On the "social-conservative-pandering-to-the-base" track, Candace Hoeppner's private members bill to repeal the long-gun registry comes to a vote in Sept. This will be Ignatieff's defining moment. He has said he will whip the vote of the 8 dissident Liberal MPs. If they defy him, there will be trouble in caucus. If they change their vote on his orders, they risk their re-election. (I think most of the 8 won't show up to vote). Layton is being cagey, enjoying seeing the Liberals squirm, but he is likely to allow his 12 MPs who voted for the bill to do so again, which means the long-gun registry is finished. Ignatieff is in an impossible position. He can't save the doomed long-gun registry, but by trying to save it he burns his rural MPs and undoes his charm offensive to woo old-time rural Liberals back.

        • Dot

          This is the way the world ends
          This is the way the world ends
          This is the way the world ends
          Not with a bang but a whimper.

          - T.S. Elliot The Hollow Men http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Hollow_Men#Overv…

        • http://scottdiatribe.canflag.com/ Scott_Tribe

          Is that the new talking point from the PMO sent out to the troops?

          • Wascally Wabbit

            I think this is another hole that they are digging Scott.
            Would make sense to me that Mark Holland's staff research the public hearing mentioned here (on the RCMP site) and gather all the evidence necessary to stiffen the spines of wobbly caucus members.
            Firearms Act 1997
            In January and February, public hearings on the proposed regulations were held by the House of Commons Sub-Committee on the Draft Regulations on Firearms, of the Standing Committee of Justice and Legal Affairs, and by the Senate Legal and Constitutional Affairs Committee. Based on the presentations that were made, a number of recommendations were made for improvements to the regulations. These recommendations were to clarify various provisions and to give more recognition to legitimate needs of firearms users. The Committee also recommended that the government develop a variety of communications programs to provide information on the new law to groups and individuals with an interest in firearms.

            In April, the Minister of Justice tabled the government's response, accepting all but one of the Committee's 39 recommendations. The government rejected a recommendation for an additional procedure in the licence approval process.

          • Wascally Wabbit

            (cont.)
            •firearms registration certificates;
            •exportation and importation of firearms;
            •the operation of shooting clubs and shooting ranges;
            •gun shows
            •special authority to possess; and
            •public agents

      • Crit_Reasoning

        Agreed. I think Harper trusts his own instincts too much. It's classic confirmation bias: Freelancing has paid off before, in 2002 and 2005-06, so it's easy for Harper to forget that his penchant for freelancing has also gotten him into a lot of trouble–in fact, it's probably why he doesn't have a majority today.

        Maybe after this latest fiasco he'll start to cultivate a healthy skepticism of his own instincts. Or maybe not.

        • Phil

          Maybe after this latest fiasco he'll start to cultivate a healthy skepticism of his own instincts. Or maybe not.

          Nice!! Without any reservation at all, I agree completely. ;-)

    • hollinm

      Crit_Reasoning…..first of all like most lefties you underestimate Stephen Harper. There is a bigger issue behind this whole census issue. We will never know what it is until it reveals itself over time. Whether its dismantling the welfare state who knows.
      All I know is government is too big, too much money is wasted on things that don't matter to the vast majority of Canadians and there is a lack of personal responsibility in this country. If Harper's intent is to remedy these issues I am all for it.
      You call it a blunder? Do you honestly believe that Canadians are going to vote against a government that makes a form, even if its the long-form census, voluntary versus mandatory? Look who is creating all the fuss. It is those that have a self interest in whatever information is learned from the census. I highly doubt whether the majority of Canadians care about this issue.
      So you can believe that it has inflicted damage (you should be happy) but when the election comes about this issue like the rest of the faux scandals will be ignored by the population.

      • Crit_Reasoning

        Crit_Reasoning…..first of all like most lefties you underestimate Stephen Harper

        Yeah, lefties like me are always underestimating Harper and cheerleading for Ignatieff.

        From my perspective, the census kerfuffle is a blunder in the purest sense. It costs more money, undermines the integrity of the data collected, addresses a problem (coercion) that could have been remedied simply by removing the jail threat and reducing fines, and it panders to an invisible constituency (I haven't seen too much libertarian outrage about the census). Strategically, Clement and Harper should have left well enough alone – there was no upside, only downside.

        I don't think this will become a serious electoral issue. By the time the next election rolls around, a lot of this will be forgotten. However, the damage is real. Clement and Harper may as well have pinned giant "kick-me" signs to their posteriors. As always, to some extent it's been overhyped by the media, but informed opinion still matters in this country and it's a mistake to completely ignore the chattering classes and academia, as Harper seems to have done.

        • http://scottdiatribe.canflag.com/ Scott_Tribe

          I think that's the first time I've ever heard anyone accuse Critical Reasoning of being a lefty.

          • Lord Kitchener's Own

            I think I've seen a right winger do that to CR before. What can be said? Sometimes people aren't rational.

          • Gaunilon

            CR's always been a flaming lefty from my perspective.

            But then again, Genghis Khan is a flaming lefty from my perspective.

          • Iccyh

            Ah, the political compass, good stuff. I find it interesting that everyone who replied to you had roughly similar scores. Here's mine, just for something different.

          • Iccyh

            I seem to recall something similar as well.

            I think it is worth pointing out, though, that while C_R may have some conservative (note the small c) tendencies he is certainly no partisan and seems to me to be more of a centrist than anything else.

        • LiveBloggin Junkie

          "and it panders to an invisible constituency "

          And herein lies the rub. Media, commentators have all been trying to figure out what base or constituency this change plays to, unless one accepts the Taylor/Wells argument that this change is part of a Stephen Harper plan, in which case, there doesn't need to be a constituency.
          But, as many above have pointed out, cancelling the census may not erode the welfare state (true, since most of the welfare state in Canada is made of 10 little welfare states and one big central state that provides very little in direct social services but seems to still require a quarter million bureaucrats, it maybe about reducing the central state).
          So, if there is a constituency, how come nobody can find it?
          If we set aside the 'shrink the state' argument, and accept that every political action taken by an actor is rational, then it must appeal to a constituency. I can identify three broad bases of support for Stephen Harper.

          • LiveBloggin Junkie

            The first base is all the Canadians who may be inclined to vote Conservative. When a gov't wants to appeal to this base it announces the move as loudly as possible. Ex, Budget.
            The second base is the engaged conservative (small c). They are organized evangelicals, think tanks, party activists, people who have signed up to receive alerts when the government takes action in the narrower field of their interest. When the gov't wants to appeal to them, it sends out the minister, does select media, and lets the various organizations alert the membership.

          • LiveBloggin Junkie

            The last base is the smallest but the most important. If you lose this base you go the route of Chrétien or Thatcher. To communicate to this base, you send out an email or tell them in a closed room. This base would also be the one most likely to have to respond to Canadians who did complain about having to fill out the census, and despite the privacy commissioners not hearing them, hundreds if not thousands of Canadians had to be told, that yes, they had to fill out that long form, yes they had to answer every question, yes Stats Can would pursue them, and no, their wasn't a single thing they could do to help these Canadians.
            Any guesses as to who the invisible constituency opposed to the mandatory long form might be?

          • Crit_Reasoning

            I agree that the "invisible constituency" is real, but surely they could have been assuaged by a compromise measure that dealt with the "coercion" issue without killing the long-form census…

          • LiveBloggin Junkie

            I haven't heard any compromise that can achieve an uncoerced but still mandatory long form. Telling someone, do this or else, is coercion. Remove the jail and the fine is still a threat. The one compromise I could concive of would be to send out the long form printed on the same form as the mandatory short form, print the mandatory questions in blue and the requested questions in pink.
            Only the questions that are absolutly required to fullfill constitutional requirements and establish a sufficent demographic profile for weighting surveys would be mandatory.

          • Holly Stick

            Here is Harper the chessmaster at work! He takes this tiny minory called an "invisible constituency" and rebrands it as the "unreported majority"; then cancels the census so that all Canadians are unreported and thus part of his constituency!

            Then he sprinkles himself with pixie dust and flies home to Fantasyland, cackling "Checkmate!" all the way home.

          • Crit_Reasoning

            By "last base" and "invisible constituency", LiveBloggin Junkie was referring to Conservative MPs.

          • Billy Nobels

            In one response the point is made that Harper's destruction of the mechanisms which currently constitute our "welfare state" will come back to haunt the Conservatives themselves. Political power rises and wanes. The next non Con government can then just as easily reinstitute even a more profound welfare state. This is a possibility which I can embrace. The damage to our traditions and peoples along the way however is in my humble opinion not acceptable. We cannot be used as guinea pigs by the delusional theocon cabal currently exerting their medieval social order. Canada has been built by governments of all stripes for centuries. To risk the destruction of the current governments cannot be tolerated nor do I think most Canadians are ready to embrace.

          • Holly Stick

            At least to the stupid MPs, including the Reform-Alliancers, who may be a majority, I don't know. But according to Don Martin:

            "…Mr. Clement should’ve done what former Industry Minister Jim Prentice did when he was asked to consider ending the mandatory filing of the detailed census form several years ago. He told the idea’s proponents to shove it…"
            http://fullcomment.nationalpost.com/2010/08/12/do…

        • Phil

          Well, on the bright side, hollinm did say like most lefties rather than like all lefties, so it looks like he did cut you some slack there…..

      • NorthernPoV

        you calling Critter_Reasoning a leftie?
        Where does that put you – to the right of Attila?

        And no, these very real scandals that are tearing apart the civil society we worked so hard to create will not be ignored by the "population".
        The Harper base (~25% of voters) loves these scandals – ie kicking sand in the faces of the pointy heads.
        60% of the voters will remember and vote against Harper (split 4 ways alas).
        But you may be right about the so called "swing vote", the 15% of the voters Harper needs in our antiquated FPTP electoral system to squeak out another great victory. They are very vulnerable to the media and polling clusterf*ck that is now used to manufacture consent, especially during the campaign, when they do start to pay attention.

        • hollinm

          NorthernPoV………."Tearing apart civil society"……..you got to be joking!

          Have you not seen the leadership polls. Ignatieff is at 14%? He's dragging down the Liberal party and Canadians are not going to vote for a party where they have no use for the leader and potential PM.

          While no one knows what will happen in an election the trend line shows that the majority of Canadians polled still support the Conservative government. This despite all of the attempts at faux scandals over the last 4 years. This is even more remarkable giving the daily torqued headlines in most of the daily papers.

          Maybe I did unfairly categorize Crit_Reasoning. If I did I apologize but my point still holds validity.

          You can argue about the electoal system until the cows come home. There is no winning party that is going to change the system. They tried in Ontario and B.C. and the citizens of those provinces rejected the PR model.

          We probably will have a minority government the next time out given what is happening in Quebec but thats fine with me as long as the carpetbagger and the corrupt Liberal party remains out of power.

          • http://scottdiatribe.canflag.com/ Scott_Tribe

            You seem to be suggesting that anyone who disagrees with Harper and his ideas is a lefty. You're rapidly enlarging the lefty pool in the country if that's the case.

          • saskboy

            That's because many people don't know there's a centre, and not just "left" and "right". Centery?

      • WDM

        There's no better illustration of your ridiculous agenda than this post. Your hyper partisanship must be blinding you to the point of migraines if you're calling Crit a "lefty".

      • Lord Kitchener's Own

        There is a bigger issue behind this whole census issue. We will never know what it is until it reveals itself over time.

        Ha! I knew there was a hidden agenda!

      • YYZ

        We will never know what it is until it reveals itself over time

        Dragging out that old Liberal hidden agenda accusation, are you. You commie.

    • Dan

      I agree that Mr. Taylor might be a little out there, but he's not Way out there. This is from a 2007 National Post article about then Industry Minsiter Maxime Bernier who was explaining why he cut StatsCans budget:

      "In selling his caucus colleagues on cuts to StatCan, Mr. Bernier said, he told them that many statistics were mainly of benefit to bureaucrats. If bureaucrats discovered how much or little of this or that Canadians had or did, they'd dream up a program to encourage or discourage it, as the case may be. But if we starve bureaucrats of the data they breathe, they won't be able to abuse it, or us."

    • Mulletaur

      To believe what you posted, one would have to believe that Stephen Harper is irrational. Sorry, not buying it.

      • Crit_Reasoning

        I'm just saying that this particular decision was irrational. Even generally rational people can still make irrational decisions.

        • practical mom

          Stephen Harper has created an image of being the smartest in the room, of being a superb strategist carefully plotting every move towards his goal of eliminating the Liberals and of being infallible. The census issue puts all this into question. Either one can continue to believe in Harper's superiority and therefore there must be some unknown rationale for eliminating the long form census or one can think this is an irrational mistake and therefore Harper's superiority is more spin than substance. I don't see either choice as benefiting Harper's chance at majority government.

          • Mulletaur

            Yup.

    • hosertohoosier

      I'm not sure that anybody could have predicted the census issue would get this much press, and inspire this much ire.

      • saskboy

        It's probably not even the straw that broke the camel's back, because most ordinary Canadians really don't realize what the issue is around the census. Many Canadians never have, or had to fill it out before, and some that have would rather not bother doing that much to remain a citizen of this country. People are more likely to turn on the TV and watch a hockey game than they are do participate in our democracy as a real citizen.

      • Crit_Reasoning

        Completely agree that the amount of press was unpredictable, especially since the Canadian media can be remarkably fickle about what they choose to focus on and what they choose to ignore.

        So it's understandable that Clement originally underestimated the reaction to this decision. However, once the ball started rolling it wasn't hard to see how this could blow up. It was perfect fodder for critics who like to paint the government as rigidly ideological, anti-science, hidden-agenda types.

        The decision (presumably made by Harper) to not defuse the situation by backing down or compromising early on was almost as unreasonable as the original decision to ignore overwhelming expert consensus by switching to a voluntary survey in the first place.

        • Mulletaur

          Does PMO have an army of 'petits Cons' giving the thumbs up to everything they agree with ? Hilarious. They probably believe in the value of online polls as well.

          • Crit_Reasoning

            I think it's hilarious that in the very same thread:

            (1) Hollinm accuses me of being a "lefty" who "should be happy" if the government sustains political damage.

            (2) Mulletaur accuses me of being a PMO stooge whose comments are thumbed up by an "army of petits Cons".

            Thanks, Mulletaur. You just made my day!

          • Stewart_Smith

            All hail Crit The very first happy go-leftie PMO stooge to gain the support of the army (petis Cons that is)

          • Mulletaur

            Actually, CR, don't mean to put a pin in your balloon, but I supposed that you weren't egotistical enough to give yourself the thumbs up. Perhaps I was wrong ?

          • Crit_Reasoning

            FYI, one can't give oneself the thumbs up (or the thumbs down, for that matter).

          • Mulletaur

            Ah, thanks. I won't let them steal my soul with Intense Debate, so I wouldn't know. I guess you can always create profiles with other credentials and give yourself the thumbs up if you were so motivated.

          • Holly Stick

            Funny, I found recently that I have the ability to vote without having logged in. And I can go back and vote for myself, but not right after posting a comment. And vote again after purging cookies. Is this unusual?

  • Mike T.

    The so-called court party is highly over-rated as an extant phenomenon. It has some small validity as a political theory, not much as a legal one. At the most, some politicans might be less likely to take up "controversial" causes such as gay marriage because they know that with a legal right to them they can get teh same result without taking the flak from extremists. It's not like they're insidiously pushing an agenda – does anybody think the Liberal party really cares all that much about minority rights? Once you have a robust Charter where the categories of equality aren't closed (fairly non controversial ideas established well before 1990) gay rights obviously follow suit*. In fact, we've had them for 13 years now!

    *despite that one case in the equality trilogy.

    • Mulletaur

      Yes, the Liberal Party does care very much about minority rights. The Liberal Party of Canada, which introduced the Charter of Rights and Freedoms, official bilingualism, multiculturalism and a host of other policies to protect minority rights, is the party of minority rights. Get with the program, sonny.

      • Mike T.

        I take your point but would point out those initiatives are decades old, and that its easier to protect minorities when they're giving you more seats in Canada's second largest province.

        • Mulletaur

          You don't need to try to fix something that isn't broken. Unless you're Stephen Harper, of course.

          • Mike T.

            Brison himself pointed out that the LPC's support for gay rights was lukewarm at best.

      • Crit_Reasoning

        And if it was irrational, and thus an error, they would back away from it.

        The failure to back away from an irrational error can itself be irrational. In other words, "digging yourself deeper".

        • Mulletaur

          If Stephen Harper were as irrational as you are trying to make out, CR, he would have to be committed to a mental institution. He's not. And it seems that you are the one digging yourself deeper here …

          • Olaf

            Dief brought in the Bill of Rights. The Charter had all party support. Mulroney tried to expand the Charter. Etc.

            Your entire speil is a bit much, and is entirely premised on your own political viewpoint. For example, one can strongly believe in minority rights, but not also agree with an official multiculturalism policy or an official bilingualism policy. There are many left wing critics of the Charter who say that its focus on individual rights tends to downplay or can even undermine collective minority rights. There are right wing critics who argue that the Liberal-enacted Canadian Human Rights Act actually has the perverse effect of infringing on fundamental freedoms such as freedom of speech and freedom of religion.

            In short, your analysis here couldn't be more simplistic or self-serving.

          • Mulletaur

            In your view, apparently.

          • Crit_Reasoning

            Perhaps nuance isn't your strong suit?

            I believe that Harper is a rational actor who made a bad decision, and then compounded his error by not backing down or compromising. That doesn't commit him to a "mental institution", as you absurdly suggest.

            Rational decision making isn't an "all-or-nothing" proposition. Politicians, whether they play chess, poker or Yahtzee, are fallible human beings. Sometimes they miscalculate.

          • practical mom

            Of course, but leaders of character would then correct the mistake and move on.

          • Mulletaur

            I prefer clarity to nuance. And you are clearly trying to get Harper off the hook by claiming that he had a brain fart and now can't/won't back down. That is truly absurd. Harper is rational and he has an agenda. Only the agenda is not so hidden any more, is it now ?

  • c_9

    StatsCan has to go further. They remove your name from your data, and only re-connect the information 92 years later. That is not in practice in any other agency.

    • Olaf

      I'm not sure that has anything to do with the original point you seemed to be making, although I may have misunderstood. Perhaps flesh out your particular concerns a bit and I'd be happy to tell you why you're still wrong. :)

      • c_9

        Haha!

        Here's a longer, hopefully clearer, attempt:

        A common complaint about the census — that is, common only after the government decided this was an issue we should all be worried about — is that there's plenty of that information everywhere else, in the various agency and government databases, so why bother the populace with this once-in-25-years exercise.

        And they are correct, a lot of that information is in those other places. Just like Royal Bank, McDonald's, the Gap, and whomever else have lots of information about you too. But nobody has that information combined. (though this is changing with the internet, as companies can track your movements online in surprising detail, so as to target their advertising)

        You're right, that many of those agencies and governments have privacy laws that govern how they behave. And that StatsCan has privacy laws that govern how it behaves. (or at least, I'm assuming you're right. I'm not actually certain how the various laws apply to government agencies as opposed to financial institutions as opposed to private firms, etc)

        But a) none of those agencies has all the information, and b) none of those agencies specifically anonymizes the information by removing your contact information. StatsCan does this as basically the first step after they open the envelope.

        I dislike the suggestion that we let other agencies just share all the data because it increases the chances of a malicious user gaining access to the full data. StatsCan has been built and operates quite well on the basis of avoiding that occurrence. The other agencies have never had to do that, and I think might make some mistakes if we decided they ought to start.

        Hope this helps clarify.

        • Olaf

          Yea, I think it does, thanks. Basically, you're saying that the more agencies that have our personal information (connected to our names), the more sheer opportunity there is for a privacy breach? That's not unreasonable, as far as it goes, although I would like to assume that for aggregate data of the type that statscan provides, the data would be anonymized before being transfered to other agencies, as they'd have no need to link names up anyway. Or they could forward it to statscan, who could use their time dealing with (and anonymizing) data from other agencies instead of from the long form. This is all just idle speculation into which I see no purpose delving at the present moment, but of course you can feel free.

          • Thwim

            Except the whole point of these agencies linking their various databases is to develop a complete picture, yes? In order to do that, however, we have to have some way to link your data-set from institution A, that perhaps contains your income information, to the data set from institution B, which contains your educational history. Aggregate data in no way serves the purpose of then being able to tell how educational history is affecting income. Even anonymized data is no good, unless it's anonymized through some master list somewhere so that statscan can deanonymize it.. which then becomes yet another point of failure.

          • Olaf

            The issue we were discussing was privacy, if you'll recall.

          • Thwim

            It was privacy in the context of the information sets from various institutions being combined. As C_9 said, " Do you like the idea of all those agencies starting to share everything they know about everyone, with varying (and invariably lesser) privacy policies?" and "I dislike the suggestion that we let other agencies just share all the data because it increases the chances of a malicious user gaining access to the full data," which is what spurred this line of discussion.

          • Olaf

            So you're suggesting that a change in the long form census necessarily or probably lead to the privacy of Canadians being compromised. I'm saying that it need not necessarily be the case. You're giving specific examples of where aggregate data isinsufficient, and that's fine, but there are many other areas where it would be sufficient. Where it isn't, then the data could be sent to stats can, who could link it all up with a pretty simple excel function (V-lookup, b*tches!) and then anonymize it. Without all the time they spend on the long form census, they'll be looking for something to do.

          • harrylimelives

            I was at a Kentucky Fried Chicken stand (sorry, too old to say the acronym) last week when a grumbling customer complained about his salad; not enuf dressing he said. Sorry, he was told, but that's how it comes. He demanded a refund.
            To get his refund, the manager asked for his telephone # – which naturally upset the upset man more. Sorry, the manager said, it is company policy that to issue a refund a telephone # must be applied to the information.
            I bought some batteries at a store two weeks ago. The cash transaction also required that i provide a postal code.
            Business is already stalking you. But it's not because they have an altruistic idea of your existence.
            Keep supporting Harper, brainiac; you'll end up like all the dead scholars of yesteryear who thought fascism/communism/fill-in-your-ism was a great idea 'in principle.'

          • Olaf

            I was expecting more substance from a comment that started wtih "I was at a Kentucky Fried Chicken stand".

          • Sean

            You don't have to give your postal code. They do it to gather customer demographics, but will gladly sell you the batteries if you refuse. (Anybody remember how Radio Shack used to want a ton of info for buying batteries?) Or, you can take your business elsewhere.

          • Phil

            FYI…..there does seem to be a difference between making a purchase and getting a refund….

            I have never had a potential sale cancelled when I decline to share my postal code with the salesperson, so I believe that you are correct from that perspective.

            But getting a refund seems to be a different matter….I don't have a lot of personal experience, but the clerks do seem to be unable to process a refund without some type of information (at least a phone number, sometimes a postal code). I didn't push extremely hard, but that has been my experience.

          • Sean

            I don't think it's unfair to ask for info when an exchange or refund is involved. Way too many scammers out there (both amongst the public and a companies own staff) to simply allow such transactions to happen anonymously.

          • Phil

            Indeed. The distinction seems rational enough, although rationality…….never mind……

            From your reply to hll I wasn't sure that you realized it is "harder" to decline sharing info on the refund side. Of course, you did specify postal code, not phone number……so perhaps I should have assumed you did.

          • Thwim

            Yes, but where it isn't gets right back to the problem C_9 was talking about.. multiple points of failure present in keeping private information private.

            I mean hell, I've received medical records of people on my fax machine before because somebody misdialed within their own institution (incidentally, what a rigamarole that turned out to be..even though I have a cross-cut "secure" shredder they insisted on scheduling a courier to come pick up the documents so that they could be sure they were destroyed properly. When I pointed out that my fax machine stores the documents in its memory and can serve as a photocopier, the response was along the lines of 'yeah, but we need to get the documents back as policy'. That they have a policy for this kind of occurence says something to me). Every time we have to transfer private information problems like that can occur.

        • madeyoulook

          But nobody has that information combined.

          Which is why I have always been hesitant to link my HBC Rewards card and my Esso Extra card over to my Air Miles. I would feel so… nekkid.

  • Kyle

    At the risk of sounding too ivory tower, this reminded me of the writings of John Ralston Saul. (by the way, I didn't have this memorized beyond the first sentence, but the Google machine helped me find the rest of it on a Buddhist site of all places)

    "They train the technocrat to tame reality. And reality being what it is — that is, real — they must deform it in order to accomplish this. There is nothing empirical about this process because it begins with a solution and a predetermined argument into which the problem must fit in order to arrive at that solution.
    The student who succeeds best at this game invariably has an aptitude for abstract structures combined with an aggressive personality. Intelligence in this situation consists of a combination of analytical skills, untutored ambition and banal materialism." Voltaire's Bastards

    • zalmox

      Don't worry, that doesn't sound too ivory tower, because Saul has never been employed in an ivory tower. Nor will he ever be.

  • Mulletaur

    "So, like the Stephen Taylor of three weeks ago, I believe the census fight is absolutely at the centre of what Harper is trying to accomplish as prime minister. … It’s entirely possible to suppose that, at least over the medium term, which could last decades and indeed maybe forever, the real result would simply be the realignment of massive state action to serve the electoral interests of the Conservative Party."

    Absolutely correct, Wells.

    A word about the "Court Party" business – minorities will never achieve equality and justice through the electoral system, because they are minorities. That is why the Charter is necessary, that is why the Court Challenges Program was and is necessary. I'm sure that Coyne will object that, if we had an electoral system based on proportional representation, those minority interests would be better represented. Don't believe it for a second. Minority interests will be traded for ministerial chauffeurs in a heartbeat.

  • Olaf

    I'm still a bit confused about the Court Party link PW is making – unless it's simply as an unrelated analogy useful in illustrating how government's use backchannels to implement policy.

    PW seems to be suggesting that with less accurate data, the CPC will be able to frustrate the claims of Court party enthusiasts (as if the judicially-enforced gains of these groups had anything to do with statistics) by misleading the public on the number of other identifiable groups (CPC voters, I assume) so that the latter groups will now be recipients of government largesse. Or something. Sorry if I'm being dense, I just don't get it – maybe someone could explain it to me slowly. Like you would explain a concept to a child or Paris Hilton.

    • Thwim

      I believe your first paragraph had it correct. The Court Party stuff is about describing how Harper sees, and is now taking up, the use of political back-channels for policy implementation. The Liberal's used the Courts — as that's a reasonable way of having an "expert" debate outside of the public arena, so were able to gain policy results as indicated by experts, where the results may be unintuitive to the general public and counter to the ideologues.

      Harper is using PMO/PCO privilege and power, as a way of cgaining policy driven by ideology, where the results may be unintuitive to the general public and counter to the experts.

    • Shiner

      I don't think that was the point. This part was the key bit:

      Harper’s longstanding fascination with “back channels” as a means for advancing the agenda of actors who constitute “a political minority in Canada” and for whom “electoral politics is not an advantageous arena” plays, not only in the census battle, but in much of what he has done as Prime Minister.

      The Court Party bit was simply an example of the type of change Harper has always been interested in, how he came around to believe incrementalism was the way to go. It's the existance of "back channels", not which back channels are used. I think that's the point.

      • Shiner

        Sorry, just re-read your first sentence, I think that's exactly what it is.

      • Olaf

        Thanks, folks. And if that's what it is than fair enough. I just found this post more cryptic than usual – I can't seem to understand how that last paragraph links up logically with PWs other points, for example. But since it might be just me I won't press it.

  • westmalle

    Agreed. Like the prorogation protests, which were pointless because the PM was never going to "un-prorogue," the census has been changed and will not be un-changed back to the status quo, so the vested-interest and political criticisms are now pointless and will inevitably fade.

    PM has already said twice that there will be no unnecessary election, and reminded everyone that only the coalition can cause an election. Layton has already said there will be no non-confidence vote on the census so the "crisis" is now over.

    • Dave

      which were pointless because the PM was never going to "un-prorogue,"

      Only if you assume that their purpose was to get him to un-prorogue.

    • noveiw

      A lot better to have a few of you not fill out the census, then to have 7,000,000 alleged french lie on it, costing you billions yearly in perpetuity. Can you all be so blind, or are you all french?

      • Standing By

        "…7,000,000 alleged french…"

        See, no good can come from partisans straying from the official talking points.

    • http://scottdiatribe.canflag.com/ Scott_Tribe

      I think you're quite wrong: once the Harperites are gone, the mandatory nature of the longform census will be reinstated.,, and there is going to be no massive Tea Party movement here to not answer it. You overestimate that cause, I believe. There simply aren't that many wackos in Canada.

      I may also say, It may be reinstated even before they are gone, but not by their own will. They are in a minority position, remember.

      • Standing By

        As a supporter of the census, I wish you were right on this. I agree Canada has no massive Tea Party movement (beyond the Langevin block, anyway).

        But it seems to me that there will now be sufficient Harper-inspired refusals in 2011 such that, if you combine these numbers with the fall-off in voluntary response rates expected from disadvantaged groups, that the long form census is going to be statistically unreliable, if not useless.

        So how do you see things unfolding? That Canadians will respond to the 2011 census as they always have? How can that happen when you have a PM who is deliberately trying to undermine confidence in it?

    • Standing By

      I don't recall anyone other than conservatives reading from talking points calling this a "crisis".

      To be clear, what I think is "over" is any possibility of saving the 2011 census.

      The responsible thing for people who understand the importance of a census, therefore, is to now call for not wasting money on the doomed 2011 census, and to postpone the census until we have a government in place that is not intent on undermining support for it.

  • Loraine Lamontagne

    Conservatives confirming the existence of the hidden agenda. How refreshing.

    • LiveBloggin Junkie

      A journalist acknowledging that the Liberal party also pursued a hidden agenda. How refreshing.

  • s_c_f

    I agree with both hypotheses:
    1. this is a step in the direction of reducing big government
    2. it is a very small step

    StephenGordon and john g are right, big government can exist and thrive without a long-form census. But it's certainly a small step in the opposite direction. Also, I don't think the welfare state is the target, it's big government that is the target, government agencies that plan and direct and attempt to control Canadian life, agencies and programs that are all a net drain on Canadian society, of which there are many in Canada.

    I especially find it entertaining to see that many ascribe no motives whatsoever to this, those that claim Harper is a dunce who threw a bone to a constituency without any thought to the consequences. This is almost certainly false, but it's funny to see people continue to underestimate Harper and see their own position as the only logical position to take.

    • Crit_Reasoning

      This is almost certainly false, but it's funny to see people continue to underestimate Harper and see their own position as the only logical position to take.

      Is it possible to believe that Harper blundered on the census without "underestimating" him? Harper's only human, after all. Like every other human being, he makes irrational mistakes from time to time.

      • Bill Simpson

        I prefer to think that it is just a pet peeve of Stephen Harper's that he decided he would fix., simply because he could. All the opposition just hardened his resolve in the matter. It may be a "hidden agenda" but it may also be pretty trivial as an agenda.

        • Orson Bean

          I agree.

        • Mulletaur

          The implications for government are enormous. It is trivial in no respect. But to understand those implications, you have to be able to think and reason. Apparently too much to ask.

      • Thwim

        As mulletaur pointed out above, when Harper actually blunders, as in the Canadian Anthem.. he reverses course quickly. No reversal of course indicates this isn't a blunder.

        • Sean

          The Anthem was small potatoes – nobody would seriously argue that as a tactical loss on a government policy front. So there is the chance he's digging his heels for the sake of not surrendering (versus dogged belief in the policy itself).

          • Thwim

            But that's the point.. it was small potatoes, either way. The kerfuffle there's been about the census far outweighs what we saw about the anthem. If he's digging in for the sake of not surrendering, why on earth wouldn't he have done that against the far lesser protests for the anthem.

          • Crit_Reasoning

            Anecdotally, most Conservatives I know were strongly opposed the anthem change. That might be a clue why it was so easy to back down on the anthem change, which was originally the result of a promise Harper made to Senator Nancy Ruth.

          • Thwim

            Yes, but from what I've seen there's a large number of Conservatives and Conservative groups who also strongly oppose this change. Unless the difference is that there's also a strong Liberal opposition to the change as well.. ergo, that Harper has taken on Gaunlion's attitude of "If it pisses off the lefties it's a good thing", or in other words, that he's no longer simply playing partisan politics, but relying on them.

          • john g

            I still believe that the anthem thing was always a red herring, intended as a bright shiny object to distract attention away from everything else in the Throne Speech, which could be easily reversed with no significant loss in political capital. My guess is that Harper tried it as a media management tool to see what would happen, and it was probably successful enough in its purpose that they'll use it again.

          • s_c_f

            Maybe. It was one of the strangest things to come out of this government.

          • http://canadiansense.blogspot.com/ CanadianSense

            A Paul Martin appointed PC Senator who if a strong pro choice, feminist was given the green light to introduce the changes shortly after the Olympics.

            Yep, the outrage in March 2010 was not predictable……

            or her follow up to her friends to STFU in May 2010.

            Sometimes the media and the left don't like having their strings pulled too tightly. http://canadiansense.blogspot.com/2010/05/nancy-r…

          • Sean

            You may be right. I still think one would fear the fallout of an absolute stand down on the census change more than the anthem thing.

        • s_c_f

          Yes, I agree. I think we've seen many instances of Harper reversing course, sometimes on a dime. The example that comes to mind is the declaration that Quebec is a nation. He initially opposed it and then did a 180. In that case, I think he did not really believe in the move, but he decided it was worth it to get enough Quebec votes for a majority, which ultimately did not work (at all).

          I think there's been plenty of other abrupt reversals. So I don't think he's the type to dig in his heels for the sake of not surrendering, I think he digs in his heels when he's made a move that has motivations behind it.

      • s_c_f

        Sure it's possible, but what do you mean by blunder? Are you saying it was a move to snag some votes and it won't work?

        They don't do things for no reason.

        In my opinion, they wanted to move in a certain direction and this is a small step. If you mean they underestimated the backlash, perhaps that is true, but it does not change the original intentions and motivations, which themselves were not likely a blunder. Perhaps you suggest the move had no motivation other than to throw a bone at a constituency. I don't think so, because, as many have mentioned, there was no constituency barking for this change.

        • Crit_Reasoning

          Perhaps you suggest the move had no motivation other than to throw a bone at a constituency.

          I think there's a small, behind-the-scenes (yet surprisingly influential) constituency of libertarian types in the Conservative base that Clement and Harper were trying to appease. So I think there was some bone-throwing happening here.

          However, I agree with you that there were probably other motives. I don't believe, as some have suggested, that this was part of some master plan to dismantle the welfare state, or whatever. They may have figured that ordinary Joes who hate sending their personal info to Ottawa would jump on board. They may also have been taking a small (symbolic?) step in a "certain direction", as you suggest.

          If so, it was an ill-advised small step. The motivations themselves weren't the blunder, but going against the expert advice of the statisticians and civil servants at Statistics Canada certainly was.

          When everyone was telling Clement privately that data integrity would be unacceptably compromised by the low response rates of a voluntary survey, he should have looked around for a better way to take that "small step", perhaps by improving or eliminating certain questions, and reducing the coercive aspects by minimizing the penalties.

          Ignoring rock-solid scientific advice the first blunder. The second blunder was underestimating the media-driven backlash, as you say. The third blunder was choosing not to compromise when the sh*t hit the fan, continuing to defend the statistically indefensible with weak arguments, and misrepresenting Statscan's advice.

          • s_c_f

            Certainly some well-reasoned points.

            But something is a blunder only if it costs them something (typically votes or other forms of support). Really, how much of these three blunders will cost them? They've lost the employed-by-StatsCan vote, and they've received a lot of heat from people who would never vote Conservative in a million years. As you say, some Conservatives are against the move, but how many of them consider it something that would sway them to vote any other way? As we've discussed, I think the Cons have not changed their minds that the move is the right one ideologically or otherwise.

            Polls show about 30% support the move and another 20% are indifferent. Meanwhile, polls show Conservative support remaining at the same level of about 34%, the same place it's been for a very long time now.

          • Crit_Reasoning

            s_c_f, I agree that the polls are really quite steady for the Conservatives, and if the blunder costs them anything it will probably be a further loss of support among the so-called "elites and chattering classes".

            This isn't a mainstream issue, and it won't decide the next election. But I honestly believe that informed opinion matters. When there's a critical mass of media, academics, special interests, etc. lined up against the Conservatives on issues like this, it's going to prevent them from rising any further in the polls, which they need to do.

    • hollinm

      s_c_f…..I agree. The opposition and many in the media have underestimated Harper since he came on the political scene.
      That underestimation is the belief that Canada is basically a left leaning country that wants big government. However, the events around the world have shown Canadians that big government without the ability to pay for it is a recipe for disaster i.e. Greece.
      The pointed heads are all in an uproar over the long-form census. However, look at letters to the editor. Very few about the long form census. Ordinary Canadians are hardly outraged as the media would have us believe.
      Canadians are interested in those things that impact them directly i.e. the economy, jobs. Harper knows this is his strength and Ignatieff's weakness.
      Why the long-form census was eliminated is a point for debate. Only Harper knows what his strategy is but to suggest he is a dunce or committed a huge blunder once again underestimates the PM.

      • hollinm

        hollinm continued…..

        I have seen some reference by commenters that Harper doesn't care about poor (welfare) people and thats why he wants to get rid of the welfare state. Welfare comes in all sorts of faces and I agree that Harper wants to dismantle agencies and programs that are a net drain on Canadian society. That may be the answer to this whole thing.

        • peter

          Although my stats classes are 35 years gone by, sample bias is only part of the problem with stats. Just as confounding are the questions asked, or not asked. If the questions are of the "social engineering" variety, don't be surprisd to see policy come down the pipe formulated to dove tail with data generated. I would guess that most statisticians want ROI on their education and would bet dollars to donuts that most are left of centre and that few vote Conservative. Ergo, their questions reflect their world view, which is oppositional to the CPC's.

          Also, there are numerous public and private firms whch can provide the same data in real time with data mining (see, x + 1, formerly Poindexter). So really, the feds regardless of party in power can buy the same data for less than it costs to keep the Stascan bus on the road.

          ps, been away from this board for a while, sad to see the same deluded bashers givin' er' snoose

      • Thwim

        Until Conservatives took power, we had the ability to pay for our big government.

        • s_c_f

          We still do, but you're assuming, as hollinm has stated, that Canadians want big government.

          You're confusing 'ability to pay' with 'willing to pay more'. Canadians can afford it, but they don't want to pay for it. Like the Greeks, they want a free lunch. But socialists always run out of other peoples' money.

          • Holly Stick

            Canadians want good government, Harper is not providing it.

          • NorthernPoV

            Thanks Holly
            scf:
            we want good gov't.
            sometimes that means big gov't

            What we get from Harper is Bad Big Gov't
            Biggest & highest spending gov't in history, all paid for by OPM

            happy now?

          • s_c_f

            You're a genius. I stand in awe.

            Let me repeat that – "sometimes good means big, but sometimes big is bad". Deep. Very deep.

          • Thwim

            Except nobody said anything about "willing to pay more" except you. To assert that Canadians don't want to pay for it is counterproductive to your general argument in two ways:

            1. There's not a ton of evidence that it's true. Only a minority of Canadians voted for a GST cut in 2004, remember. I don't think anybody would dispute that we'd certainly like to pay less if it were possible, but I really don't see a lot of evidence that we're unwilling to pay what we have to now.
            2. It's the Conservatives that are attempting to make us pay more for something of less utility.

          • s_c_f

            1. There's a ton of evidence. Polling has shown that Canadians don't want tax increases. Look at the uproars in Ontario and BC over the small tax increase caused by adopting the HST. Look at the uproar that occurs any time any hint of a tax increase is discussed. Canadians have absolutely no willingness to pay more taxes.

            2. The extra money for the additional census forms is a drop in the hat in the larger scheme of things, we're talking about 30 million out of total spending of 280 billion. We're talking 0.01%. We're talking about extra census costs of $1 per capita when government revenue per capita is over $6000. You need a sense of proportion.

          • NorthernPoV

            So this $30M means nothing?

            You guys keep crowing about the supposed $40M (only about $1M has ever been documented) that went astray in the sponsorship scandal … but 3/4 of that means nothing

            making it up as you go?

          • s_c_f

            So this $30M means nothing?

            Who said that? That's not the slightest bit what I said. I said that it means nothing in the context of measuring the size of government. Relative to the rest of the budget and spending overall, it's small. They probably spend more on grants to one-legged sculptors. That doesn't mean it's nothing. But 0.01% is not something to go ape over, when moaning about big government!

            Also, there's a difference between money spent unwisely, and money that is stolen. Even a Liberal understands that. Especially when you consider that 30 million is a huge amount relative to the coffers of a federal party, or relative to campaign spending by an MP.

    • LynnTO

      Also, I don't think the welfare state is the target, it's big government that is the target, government agencies that plan and direct and attempt to control Canadian life, agencies and programs that are all a net drain on Canadian society, of which there are many in Canada.

      Not that I disagree with you, but those programs that you refer to include HEW, which might qualify as a fiscal drain, though human capital theorists would argue their other benefits outweigh the negatives.

      Perhaps in some small way, people are taking HEW as metonymic of big government.

      • s_c_f

        What is HEW?

        • Gaunilon

          High Energy Weapons, of course.

          How they're like big government I'm not sure. Perhaps because they tend to leave behind a lot of chaos and poisonous fallout wherever they're used?

          • s_c_f

            High Energy Weapons? Really?

            I'm lost. Hopefully LynnTO comes back to explain this.

          • Gaunilon

            Kidding. I think Lynn means "Health, Education, and Welfare".

          • Crit_Reasoning

            Come to think of it, High Energy Weapons can also be seen as "metonymic of big government", as Lynn said. Or maybe just metaphoric.

  • Dave

    Right, right, three-dimensional Vulcan parcheesi, we get it.

    • LynnTO

      Is that the game we're playing now? Here I was still playing Settlers of Catan.

  • noveau bunswick

    Amazing, how every posters avoids the findings, that the french were lying in order to gain billions of funding to spread their language and control across Canada, by lying on the census to show 3% of an area spoke french, therefore requiring a multitude of duplicate services. If you want 10, New Brunswicks, in Canada, just vote Harper out, and you will get it!

    • Thwim

      I don't think it's avoidance so much as irrelevance.

      • NorthernPoV

        nothing gets the cons goad more than being ignored

  • Emily

    Anyone who's followed Harper over the years, along with his party in all it's incarnations, isn't surprised by any of his moves.

    The media was warned repeatedly about a hidden agenda, and it was even pointed out to them as it happened….but they are in the scoffing business….until something so blatant comes along they finally can't ignore it.

    • Mike T.

      But this isn't the hidden agenda so much as the befuddingly stupid agenda.

      • noveiw

        In fact the media was warning about a hidden agenda, not the citizens, who elected him and will again, regardless of your now, media Blitz to unseat him. Unseat him with WHAT! He is the most respected leader in the World . Something not seen since a couple of years of Pearson. I wouldn't sell my soul like you antiHarper bunch for no media subsidy! Allowing the french to exploit you, gutless wonderless's.

        • Emily

          Give the crap a rest.

    • Mandatory Jedi

      So Emperor Harper really is secretly working on building a Death Star!

      Thankfully we have the professor, Ignatieff-3P0 to calculate the odds of launching a photon torpedo into it’s exhaust manifold.

      • Emily

        A 'death star' for the Canada we know, yeah.

        Whether Iggy is the one to blow it up, and restore order, is debatable.

        • noveiw

          The people on the back porch will see to it, that it will be a long time before the sensible voters, X the liberal pack of thieves again! Thats what the polls consistently say, regardless of the new media anti harper Blitz.
          Meanwhile, the West, solidifies its power, never to succumb again to the muddled dual everything East.. That may, be the hidden agenda! Obvious for years! lol

          • JoeC

            I suggest you learn the English language a bit better before you engage in debate. What you're saying makes almost no sense, and only detracts from your side's credibility.

        • Newf

          It only mattered because the Liberal press made it matter. Like the Afghan issue. Most of us don't care! You Libbies on the other hand, cant shut up about it. To quote a famous senator. STFU

    • s_c_f

      I can just see it:


      Soldiers with guns. In our cities. In Canada.
      A long form in your neighbour's mailbox. Left unfilled. In Canada.

      Choose your Canada.

  • Sean

    I wonder how it feels to be Harper?? Believing so strongly in his vision, yet knowing it can only be achieved through stealth. Not stealth in terms of the decisions themselves, which are there for all to see, but knowing the broader intent of these collective actions cannot be openly and proudly proclaimed.

    All politicians necessarily learn the watered down non-speak required to keep their jobs. But still, one generally knows the core values and visions of a party and politician. Unless they are hopelessly floundering in their positions – but nobody's about to suggest Harper is without a clue and without a direction. Just that he knows he can't overtly share it.

    So here's a man and a party with a profound belief in how the country ought to be, unable to really tell everyone what that vision is. Because if they do, they lose any chance to enact change. I'm not sure if that makes them zealots, liars, saviours or visionaries (or maybe some mix of all). But I'd sure like to know how it feels to be simultaneously passionate and mute with regard one's driving philosophy.

    If you assume the public is still too brainwashed, unaware, or tied to tradition (or whatever explanation works) to accept your vision; but you press on because you believe it's for their own good; how do you do it without deep feelings of ambivalence (or possibly even loathing or contempt) toward either yourself or those you serve?

    • Gaunilon

      "If you assume the public is still too brainwashed, unaware, or tied to tradition (or whatever explanation works) to accept your vision; but you press on because you believe it's for their own good; how do you do it without deep feelings of ambivalence (or possibly even loathing or contempt) toward either yourself or those you serve?"

      Wouldn't that question best be asked of the Martin Liberals in terms of same-sex marriage legislation?

      • Sean

        http://www.ctv.ca/mini/election2004/static/issues…

        Ya, they really held that position close to their chests.

        • Gaunilon

          Not the "mute" part, the "if you assume the public is too brainwashed/unaware/tied to tradition to accept your vision but you press on" part, i.e. the part I quoted in italics. Polls at the time, as I recall, showed more than half of Canadians opposed to the idea.

          • Sean

            "Polls at the time, as I recall, showed more than half of Canadians opposed to the idea."

            Yet he was brave enough to plunk it right there in the election platform. You cannot seriously be advancing the position that Martin was less obvious and open about his vision for the country and policies he wanted to see enacted, can you? Nor can you accuse him of assuming Canadians were too brainwashed/etc. to accept his positions – since he explicitly ran on them.

            So no, my original question is most certainly not best asked of the Martin Liberals. Least of all for the same-sex marriage issue.

          • Gaunilon

            As I said, I'm not claiming Martin was hiding his position. Yes, he ran on it.

            Polls at the time showed that his position was not supported by the majority of Canadians. Therefore, he was doing it because of ideology (or principle, if you prefer), not because he thought it was popular. Therefore, he was pursuing a policy that he thought the public was too brainwashed, ignorant, or tied to tradition to accept….it was a classic case for your question above.

          • Thwim

            The "mute" part is the critical part.. it's not only assuming that the public is too brainwashed/unaware/tied to tradition to accept your vision, but also that if they were made aware.. you would be unable to enact it. In essence,a knowledge that your vision is impotent.

    • s_c_f

      Believing so strongly in his vision, yet knowing it can only be achieved through stealth

      Huh? That's how the Liberals have been doing it all these years.

  • Mike T.

    Absolutely their record is stellar when compared to the reformists. But belatedly passing a law after the courts of several provinces made it clear that equality existed isn't exactly getting in front of the parade.

  • Gaunilon

    I don't think this makes sense.

    Let's start with the premise that Harper wants to dismantle the welfare state. Ok. The argument relating the census decision apparently goes something like this: if people have accurate stats, they'll know how much damage Conservative policies are actually causing Canadians, and this will prevent Conservatives from lying about those policies. Let's call this "Scenario A".

    Does anyone detect the implicit assumption here? Suppose, just for one wild and insanely hypothetical moment, that Conservative policies and dismantling the welfare state are generally good for Canadians? Then it would be politically helpful to the Conservatives to have accurate and reliable stats. Let's call this "Scenario B".

    Now, clearly every rational, informed, warm and fuzzy person thinks that Conservative policies lead to apocalyptic Scenario A. But Harper is not such a person. He believes his policies are better for Canadians, for otherwise he wouldn't be supporting them. He believes we are headed for Scenario B. So why would he want to damage the census?

    Of course, there are people (including many here) who believe that Harper does not actually want what he thinks is best for Canadians, but rather wants to destroy Canada, or scuttle the ship of state, or lead us all to the rapture, or sacrifice us all to Moloch, or what have you. I'd like to think that most reasonable people can see these for what they are: paranoid delusions with little basis in fact. If we assume he's sort of a normal politician who wants what's best for his country and his own career (in either order) then even if one thinks he's completely misguided, Scenario A makes no sense at all.

    • Loraine Lamontagne

      Very interesting. I think he should promote the dimantling the welfare state in the next election. And while at it, he should promote his vision of Canada as a country with one national government or two national governments or several national governments.

      • Lord Kitchener's Own

        Yeah, that sounds an awful lot like you're asking the Tories to have a platform, and then run on it. Good luck with that. Last election we only got a platform out of the Tories after Harper got ridiculed in the leaders' debates for not having a platform.

        Getting a platform out of the CPC is like pulling teeth.

    • Orson Bean

      G, thank you for at least making a rational post, which aims to engage in informed debate. I don't always agree with what you say, but I appreciate your tone and intellectual honesty.

      • Gaunilon

        Thanks Bean!

        • s_c_f

          I usually agree with both of you, so I'm surprised you two don't agree most of the time.

          • Gaunilon

            I would contend that I usually agree with Bean too, so apparently this is one of our many disagreements.

    • hosertohoosier

      I could see a few scenarios where it would be rational for Harper to diminish the quality of data, even if he believes his policies are good for the nation.
      1. Eventually the Liberals will return to power. Maybe not today, maybe not tomorrow, but some day. Even if there was objective evidence supporting Conservative policies, the Liberals might implement Liberal policies anyway. Bad data is inherently more damaging for big government than small government approaches to governance. So Harper could somewhat constrain the ability of the Liberals to implement policies he believes are bad in the future.

      2. Politics is more often about irreconcilable values than about the objective pursuit of the best policy. We have all seen how quickly the thin veneer of rationality vanishes when people are confronted with conflicting evidence. Harper may believe that the public has different values than he does. He believes his policies are best for the nation because they work best on his preferred indicators (say… economic growth, order and liberty), as opposed to his perception of the public's preferred indicators (say… poverty reduction, equality and unity).

      I don't think either is true, but I could see hypothetical situations where Harper would worsen the quality of data, even if the data would support him. Actually I don't think my special interest group hypothesis is true either (I think this initiative was probably the result of a mistake for which Tony Clement is largely responsible).

    • Mulletaur

      "Suppose, just for one wild and insanely hypothetical moment, that Conservative policies and dismantling the welfare state are generally good for Canadians? Then it would be politically helpful to the Conservatives to have accurate and reliable stats. Let's call this "Scenario B"."

      You totally miss the point, Gaunilon. The point is not whether the policy adopted is generally good for Canadians or not. The point is whether the policy is conservative/Conservative or not. That is the only thing that motivates Harper. He wants to make a conservative Canada which is also a Conservative Canada. He doesn't want to be able to measure policy outcomes – all he wants is to be able to demonstrate that his policies fit his ideology. In electoral terms, all he needs is a 10 point lead and a popularity of about 40-ish percent to win a majority. He doesn't give a crap about the other 60%, which happen to include almost all the people who benefit from the welfare state and who are unlikely to vote for him anyway.

      • Gaunilon

        Ok, I'll bite. So why does he want to make a conservative Canada, if it's not because he thinks that that would be best for Canadians?

        • Orson Bean

          Because he's evil?

          • s_c_f

            I guess that must be it. This goes back to that ol' Liberal condescension that Liberal == good and Con == evil (or Liberal == Canada and Con == unCanada), rather than Liberal == left and Con == right.

          • Gaunilon

            Dividing the spectrum according to Left/Right is too simplistic and binary, you see. The nuanced position is to divide it according to good and evil, but only if the Right is evil. If you get the sides reversed than you're being morally judgmental.

            Nuance, friend.

        • Thwim

          Because he thinks it'd be the best for him.

        • Mulletaur

          A Conservative Canada will build a natural bias in the polity towards electing Conservative governments. It has nothing to do with good or evil, it has everything to do with power. Man, you're a bit slow on the uptake.

          • Orson Bean

            That's counter-intuitive in one respect, though, M: the conventional wisdom (with which I agree) is that over time, we get sick and tired of a particular government, that government gets tired, lazy, arrogant, etc. and gets voted out of power. But I guess I agree with you that the longer a conservative govt is around, the more comfortable, or less uncomfortable, certain people would be with it, provided those people don't see their lives as being negatively affected (e.g., "I have a job, I have a house, etc.").

          • Orson Bean

            I guess on further thought I think there's a legitimate and important distinction to be made between getting sick and tired of a particular Conservative government on the one hand, versus, over time, getting comfortable (or at least not uncomfortable) with the IDEA of living under a Conservative government.

    • s_c_f

      if people have accurate stats, they'll know how much damage Conservative policies are actually causing Canadians

      I don't think that's it. It's more like, if people don't have stats, they cannot design programs that cater and are the direct result of the existence of such stats.

      For instance, if you don't know how many Hindu one-legged bus drivers there are and where they live, you cannot design the "government grants for one-legged Hindu bus driver art expositions" or the "social assistance office network for one-legged hindu bus drivers" or the "one-legged Hindu bus driver subsidy to promote faster buses for select religious adherents".

      But I catch your drift. It depends on the stats themselves.

  • JamesHalifax

    I must admit……the ONLY place I've heard ANY discussion of the census…….

    Is on these boards, the CBC, and the Toronto Star.

    I have yet to hear a SINGLE PERSON mention this decision….let alone "decry" it.

    This issue only lives in the media…..in the real world, Canadians just don't care about it.

    • http://www.TheMontrealReview.com Roy Berger

      Canadians are replying on about 200 boards. They care. They know.

      • http://scottdiatribe.canflag.com/ Scott_Tribe

        3 out of the 4 most recent polls show Conservative drops (including Angus-Reid yesterday) . with pollsters attributing that in part to the Census controversy. It's out there.

      • JamesHalifax

        Roy Beger wrote:
        "Canadians are replying on about 200 boards. They care. They know.

        Yes, Roy….and I'm sure you've commented on 199 of them. As has Emily, Holly, and every other Liberal shill who sits around all day and does NOTHING but comment on these boards.

        Roy. Ask people on the street what their opinion is of the long form census. AFter theire eyes stop glazing over…come back and tell us of the outrage….the planned protests…etc…etc…

        It's a non-issue for most people. What people DO understand and care about….is corruption.

        But hey……as long as we're talking about Corruption, you can be sure the word Liberal will be in the conversation somewhere.

        Any press is good press….right?

    • Sean

      Well then, go back about your regular business and leave the rest of us to waste our time. Since it will have no effect on anything, why are you wasting yours here?

    • NorthernPoV

      I rarely hear any discussion of politics, even during the writ period.
      Somehow 2/3 of the folks still vote.

    • s_c_f

      Me neither.

  • Blacktop

    I think the left wing pols who crowd this thread must do analytical work. They are seeing Harper as a bogeyman in everything he does. As a professional economist perhaps he realizes that most of the models sociologists and researchers use, while elegant, can be useless for policy making. Harper is a minimalist. The crowd on this thread must make their living in this politics stuff. Really, it is not the real world, but accoprding to the time posters spend on this thread not to memntion other ones as they pop up, it is obviously bread and butter and consumes much of their energy.

    I just don't want Harper in a majority position so that overt religious nonsense stays out of the government's policies. The problem with Harper is that there is no timber in the forsest to make another PM. Iggy is not sure which page he is on in the politics primer and the NDP is bankrupt of everything.

    • Sean

      Small quibble – I don't think Harper has ever been hired as an economist, so describing him as a professional economist might be a bit of stretch.

      • Holly Stick

        True.

  • knick

    It seems that the most likely reason for Harper's decision to abolish the mandatory long-form census is that it would facilitate abolishing the 'welfare state'. A question for which I have yet to find an acceptable answer is, what happens to the weakest members of our society – the poor, the homeless, the physically or mentally challenged, etc. – if the welfare state is abolished. If it falls on individual citizens to care for these members of our society, how will their care be ensured universally and not at the whim of individuals or groups of individuals? If no one assumes responsibility for the weakest members of our society, then what happens to them? How should our society be judged by ourselves and future generations if we accept that self interest takes precedence over the greater good?

    • BGLong

      Maybe the sad answer is somewhere in here …

      http://www.mcsweeneys.net/2010/8/12hague.html

      • knick

        Good link, thanks. I guess that's what I just don't get – it seems so counter-intuitive.

    • Thwim

      That's where the extra jails come in.

  • Orson Bean

    I had the privilege of knowing several leading figures in what Wells et al. refer to as the "Court Party" in Wells' post. In the law school debates that took place on this issue, a leading (and decidedly left-wing) figure was Professor David Beatty, then at U of T Law School. Beatty was quite unabashed in articulating his hope that the Supreme Court would render decisions that would ultimately transform Canada into Prof. Beatty's left-wing utopia. It's a matter of public record in articles and books that he published. One of my colleagues at the time summed up Beatty & Co.'s view quite succinctly: Beatty would prefer that we be ruled by a bunch of "enlightened despots" (i.e., unelected judges), if those enlightened despots would deliver us the left-wing state that the electorate was not willing to deliver.

    • Thwim

      The rule of the philosopher-kings in other words. It's really not a bad idea all things considered, but one that needs to be tempered by the public so as to prevent corruption.

      • hosertohoosier

        I find it interesting how that particular viewpoint has tended to shift from the left to the right over the past decades. It used to be right wingers who were elitists trying to keep the masses at bay. Its enough to make an old timey elitist cry.
        *sniff*
        Now to pour a glass of Margeaux '59 on the sidewalk for my homeboys, the Family Compact (white wine sucks).

        • McC_

          I hope whoever gave this post a thumbs down did so over the threat of wine wastage!

      • Orson Bean

        "The rule of the philosopher-kings in other words. It's really not a bad idea all things considered, but one that needs to be tempered by the public so as to prevent corruption."

        And Thwim, I don't necessarily have a huge problem with the idea either, or at least certain aspects of it. I've got a soft spot for elites myself. Nevertheless, you always have to be wary of acting according to that justification which says "well, the great unwashed just don't know what's good for them, so . . .."

        The other thing that I think was wrong about the Court Party and related developments was how under-the-radar they were. E.g., the Court Challenges Program — the fact is, most ordinary, apolitical Canadians had absolutely no clue what it was or that it even existed. For something that important, that's just wrong, period.

        • s_c_f

          I consider myself to be a rather smart guy, and there's no way I'd like to be ruled by philosoper-kings. Give me the first 500 names in the phone book any day (William Buckley).

          • Orson Bean

            I dunno, man. That sounds a lot like a "jury of your peers", and I have a huge problem with jury trials (cf. O.J Simpson).

          • hosertohoosier

            I am inclined to agree. Firstly, I don't think bad government is usually the result of incompetence. It is the result of adverse incentives. Elites or philosopher-kings could have different interests from the country as a whole, and so it is not clear how you would prevent them from abusing their power.

            Even if you could overcome that, you have a second problem in the limits of expertise.
            While expertise is fine on objective measures, it cannot solve tradeoffs. For instance, you may have a tradeoff between security and liberty. You cannot solve that problem objectively because tackling one problem diminishes the other. It is problems like these where we need the masses. The masses are not experts in public policy, but are experts in what they want – their values, hopes, and aspirations.

        • s_c_f

          most ordinary, apolitical Canadians had absolutely no clue what it was

          I didn't know much about it back then, but when I did, I wasn't pleased.

          • Orson Bean

            There were definitely some problems with it, especially the closer you got to it and the more you got to know about it. I mean, many people would conceptually have a problem with the basic idea of giving lawyers money so they can make a nice living out of having their clients sue the government. A lot of lawyers (virtually all of the left-of-centre in their political orientation) and interest groups (ditto) did very well by that program. You had no non-payment risk, and the cases were invariably interesting and high profile. It was basically a lawyer's wet dream.

          • Holly Stick

            Why, because you don't like women winning cases based on their right to equality? Or is it disabled people or minorities you don't like to see having their rights recognized?

            "…Because of funding received through CCP, organizations like LEAF were able to bring cases for Canadians on a range of issues. We were able to work to uphold the rights of pregnant women. We were able to work to ensure that trials for rape would be fair and would not rely on harmful stereotypes about women's sexuality, that women would be treated fairly in divorce proceedings and settlements, that defendants in rape cases would not be allowed to troll through the private documents of victims…"
            Page 6 of http://cmte.parl.gc.ca/Content/HOC/committee/392/…

          • Orson Bean

            Holly, I have absolutely no problem with women launching and winning cases based on equality rights. Same with disabled people & minorities. You're confusing desired outcomes with the methods employed to achieve those outcomes.

            The only thing I'm raising an issue has to do with methods: LEAF and other organizations taking government money for the sole purpose of suing the government. If LEAF and/or those whom it represents wants to sue the government, I have no problem with that, assuming it's a meritorious case. But they can do so on their own dime, not mine. There are tons and tons of other worthy plaintiffs out there in the world who don't expect the government to pay them to sue the government. Bear in mind, too, that many of these organizations have charitiable status in the first place, so donations to them are already tax-deductible. So when those organizations used CCP funding for litigation, they were basically double-dipping.

          • Holly Stick

            They were going to court to make the government govern better. A good thing to spend government money on. How many cases would never have gotten to court if they had not had that funding?

            Do you also object to the Fraser Institute being a tax-registered charity

          • Orson Bean

            Holly, I think there are better ways to get the government to govern better than to pay people with taxpayer's money — in this case, lawyers who are already quite well off — to sue the government. To me, your argument seems based on the premise that taxpayer's money is some sort of infinitely deep well that we can draw on ad infinitum for all manner of worthy causes. I beg to differ. I think there are different ways of getting results we aspire to. In any event, I would rather see my money spent on health care, education, infrastructure, and all the other services that we need. Let charities and interest groups do their fine work the way they always have, by raising funds from donors on a tax-deductible basis.

          • Orson Bean

            Re your point about the Fraser Institute, the answer I suppose would depend on what the tax and charitable status is for all manner of interest groups adn think tanks, and quite frankly I don't know the answer to that. Certainly it would not be fair if, e.g., the Canadian Centre for Policy Alternatives were treated differently from the Fraser Institute in this regard. Basically, all think tanks should be treated equally with respect to their tax status, it seems to me.

          • Holly Stick

            The fact is that some of us have to fight for every right we have, while others are born privileged. The Court Challenges Program was a way of helpeing to level the playing field so the rich white men don't have all the advantages all the time.

          • Holly Stick

            Women pay taxes too, though they are still usually paid less than men.

          • JamesHalifax

            Holly Schtick wrote:
            "They were going to court to make the government govern better"

            Holly, that's what voters are for….not lawyers.

            As for the equity laws, they should be based on common sense.

            Man Vs. Woman

            If they both do the same job, get the same results – same pay.
            If they both do the same job, but one is more productive – compensate differently.

            Holly, it's clear you have no business experience. As an employer, if you have two employees and one works 55 hours a week and one works 35 hours a week….why should they get the same pay?

          • JamesHalifax

            It is an unfortunate reality that it is mostly women who take extra time to spend with their children. Biology dicates that women have kids….and they get stuck with needing time off. As an employer, it is not my responsibility to pay for someone else to raise their kids. I'll hire the most productive worker, whether it is a man or woman.

            The only thing the courts have done with equity legislation, is guarantee that many employers won't bother to hire a woman in the first place. No one wants to put up with the hassle, or pay money for non-productive employment.

            Sad but true.

      • LiveBloggin Junkie

        Try re-reading The Republic as if it were written by Orwell and the philospher king doesn't hold up as well.

        • Thwim

          Meh. Re-read the bible as if it were written by McVeigh and I imagine it doesn't hold up as well either.

  • Loraine Lamontagne

    I see him as an incompetent manager, one who proceeds without consulting others, or disregards sound advice, as was the case with the census. I suspect the same 'method' was used with the amendment to the identification of electors, the economic statement of November 2008, and others.

    Dismantling the Canadian welfare state may be a tough sell but Canadians are a lot more open to this than Harper would seem to believe. We're educated enough to read newspapers and see what's happening in Europe – and Jean Chrétien managed to keep the electorate on his side, though barely, when he axed 50,000 public service jobs in the mid-nineties and cut merrily into programs. I am interested in hearing about rational, well-thought-out and prepared plans to slim government but Harper simply doesn't have the ability to deliver on this. He would botch the job.

From Macleans