Beyond The Commons

Beyond The Commons

Beyond The Commons

Aaron Wherry covers all the goings-on in and around Parliament Hill. Follow Aaron on Twitter: @aaronwherry

Categories: Beyond The Commons, Capital Read

From 1914 to 1939 to now

by Aaron Wherry on Tuesday, August 17, 2010 11:42am - 0 Comments

Bob Rae recalls the historical precedents for the MV Sun Sea.

This past week Canadians have been subjected to wild rumours of disease rampant aboard the ship, and allegations that “terrorists” and “criminals” are about to run amok in the country.  Many urged the Canadian navy to board the ship in international waters and send them on their way.

Bishop Gervais’s admonition notwithstanding, it would seem some have learned very little from our past. Of course people paid to get on the Tamil boat, just as they did to get on the Komagata Maru, the SS St Louis, and Kastner’s train for that matter…

I’m proudest as a Canadian when we’re setting the right standard for the world.  We didn’t do it in 1914 for the Komagata Maru or in 1939 for the St Louis.  Let’s get it right this time.

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  • Greg

    Wow, a reasoned and reasonable response to the incident. Boy, will Rae ever be roasted by the Conservatives.

    • lgarvin

      I don't think it was either reasoned or reasonable. Rae is posturing and he's being more than a little disingenuous while he's at it… Sure some people have said "turn them back" but here they are. They are safe, they have been given medical attention and legal advice and they are being processed in accordance with the law. Pretty hard to rail against the reality of the situation so Rae decides instead to rail against the sins of previous generations… Hardly impressive.

      Despite the fervent wish of Mr. Rae, we are an open and tolerant society, not a bunch of racist reactionaries. We have a generous and compassionate immigration system and we welcome people from all over the world. What we don't like – and what we don't need to apologize for disliking – is people who try to cheat our system, jump the que and crash the barriers that are in place to protect all parties.

      This rhetorical gimmickry of Mr. Rae's brings him no credit at all.

      • knick

        "Despite the fervent wish of Mr. Rae, we are an open and tolerant society, not a bunch of racist reactionaries."

        Have you not read the many comments here and elsewhere that are anything but 'open and tolerant' and every bit the views of 'racist reactionaries'?

        • lgarvin

          No, I haven't. But then I haven't been reading a lot of comments recently. I wouldn't fall over in shock if I read some racist comments – it's a human failing, after all – but a few individuals do not represent the whole of this or any society. Would you argue that we are not an open and tolerant society? Is it necessary to iradicate every last trace of intolerance in the land before we are worthy of Bob Rae's respect?

          • knick

            I have no idea whether or not the intolerant racist views being expressed in comments represent a significant number of Canadians or not. I would argue that the tone of the Harper government's response to the boat-load of Tamil refugees has more than encouraged those in our society who hold those views to express them publicly. It's not Bob Rae's respect I'm concerned about, it's our own self-respect.

          • lgarvin

            Maybe you should give an example of these intolerant racist views… I've heard some comments about terrorism and I've heard some comments about jumping the que and other comments about human trafficking… but I haven't heard a lot of plainly racist commentary. With the exception, of course, of Mr. Rae who accuses all and sundry of being racists… but only by implication.

            Is there a thread or a comment you have in mind?

          • knick

            Sorry, I don't have links for you. I've read them over the past few days, mostly on links from NNW. If you Google Canada+Tamil news, you'll get thousands of links. The ones I've read the most hateful comments in are The Star and Globe and Mail articles. That's not to say that entire threads are racist, just that racist comments appear in many threads, and like I said, I have no idea whether or not these comments represent a significant number of Canadians, but the fact that they appear at all suggests to me that those making these statements believe that they are justified.

      • Phil

        Despite the fervent wish of Mr. Rae, we are an open and tolerant society, not a bunch of racist reactionaries.

        Hey, I'll pick on the same phrase that knick did, but different direction…..I doubt that Bob Rae wishes what you suggested. But is he being disingenuous,sure.

        On the larger point, I think that your basic contention that Canada is open and tolerant and so on is accurate.

        • lgarvin

          "…..I doubt that Bob Rae wishes what you suggested. But is he being disingenuous,sure."

          If Canada actually were the horrid intolerant society that Mr. Rae pretends, then he wouldn't have to be disingenuous about it. I'm just giving him the benefit of the doubt when I presume that he'd rather be honest about the situation and is only resorting to demagoguery as his second choice.

          But I've a generous nature like that…

  • ADB

    How is it that Rae hardly ever fails to find the right words and sentiments?

    • PeteTong

      Personally I find it scary to think this man could one day be Minister of Foreign Affairs or Citzenship and Immigration under Prime Minister Ignatieff.

      • burlivespipe

        Yes, its scary to think that someone capable, articulate, intelligent and compassionate could be at the controls of one of Canada's main ministries. Thank god for the dumb-downess of Stephen Harper and his tribe!

  • tobyornotoby

    Rae also provides some context from the conflict in Sri Lanka, something that has been missing from most of the reporting.

    The Sri Lankan government isn't exactly a reliable source for determining who is, and isn't a terrorist, given that their leadership is made up of war criminals who haven't yet been apprehended.

    • Style

      Fair enough – but who is a reliable source for determining who is or isn't a terrorist in this case? The LTTE presumably still has some sway over the Tamil community, and they aren't exactly war criminal-free…

      • harrylimelives

        Certainly Harper and Co. have some inside scoop on this file, no? They seemed to act as though they knew who, what and where back in opposition – backing anonymous whisper campaigns against Arar et al.

  • Stewart_Smith

    It is interesting that Jason Kenny has become a mute over this issue. I would assume he suffers a tiny little death each time Toews opens his mouth on the issue. After all Kenny's hard work on the multicultural file, this story is driving home the true story of how this government and its base think.

    • PolJunkie

      Yeah but the "multicultural vote" isn't part of Harper's core 30% support that must continue to vote for him if he wants to retain power. They take a back seat for now.

  • Blacktop

    Help us from people like Bob Rae.

    • tedbetts

      Help us with people like Bob Rae.

    • Jan

      I think it's people like Vic Toews we need help from. Less huff, more brain, please.

  • LaxAtlDfwYow

    I'm no particular fan of Mr. Rae, but my gawd, he's a welcome voice of reason in the face of KoryMedia's suggestion that ships such as the MV Sun Sea should be fired upon. No migrants on the Sun Sea…

    • PolJunkie

      "Lock and load would be our approach."

      Unreal…

    • Olaf

      Sorry, where did they advocate firing upon the ship?

      • LaxAtlDfwYow

        From the Sun Media editorial:
        If the MV Sun Sea were carrying 500 "migrants" from Afghanistan, home base for the Taliban and al-Qaeda, would we be allowing it to enter Canadian waters, or would we put firing a shot over the bow with a message that the next would be midships? Lock and load would be our approach.

        The very next sentence, referring to the Tamils on MV Sun Sea: "And this case is no exception."

        Pretty clear.

    • Mark R

      "Lock and load" does not mean fire upon a ship. Love the attention these editorials get though.

      • Jenn_

        "or would we put firing a shot over the bow with a message that the next would be midships? Lock and load would be our approach"

        Oh? If it doesn't mean firing upon a ship, what does that mean?

        • Gaunilon

          I'm not endorsing their position, but "firing a shot over the bow" is landsman's misspeak for "firing a shot across the bow" which means "firing a warning shot that deliberately misses the front of the ship".

          "Lock and load" means "get the weapons ready for action".

          Neither one means "fire on the ship", although "next would be midships" means "if they don't obey whatever orders we're relaying, then we fire on their boat and sink it." In short, they are advocating a muscular warning with full intent to follow it up with force if the warning is ignored.

          • Jenn_

            Thanks Gaunilon. A subtle difference, but I take your point that it is a difference.

    • tobyornotoby

      If they don't want it coming here, why did Sun Media shell out for the naming rights to the ship?

  • Crit_Reasoning

    Seriously, I'm uncomfortable with comparisons between the SS St Louis and the MV Sun Sea.

    • Stewart_Smith

      You make a compelling case, Rae is no match for you!

      • Crit_Reasoning

        With the passengers aboard the St. Louis, it was literally a case of life or death. Hundreds of passengers aboard the St Louis died in the Holocaust after the ship was forced to return to Europe, after being rejected by Canada, the US, Cuba and many other countries. Some passengers aboard the ship chose to commit suicide rather than return to Europe.

        There may be valid refugees aboard the Sun Sea, and we should apply due process to assess their claims. But the plight of these passengers probably shouldn't be compared to the plight of the doomed passengers aboard the "Voyage of the Damned". We should be leery of comparisons that trivialize history.

        • Blacktop

          Right. There is no comparison in these other incidents. But the St. Louis was a tragic exception where we should have listened. Why? because the passengers woudl have assimilated in one or two generations. There is some comparason with the others. The Komagato Maru compares favourablly with the Sun Sea. Both financed from doubtful sources. .

          • Crit_Reasoning

            For me, it's not a question of "assimilation", it's a question of principle. Canada can only take in so many refugees, and on humanitarian grounds we need to ensure that refugee status is granted to those who are most in need of protection.

            That's why I support Keith Martin's idea of having processing centres situated in countries like Sri Lanka, so that the protection of the Canadian state is granted to those who need it most, not just those who can afford the steep fees to charter a ship heading to Canada.

          • Jan

            Martin's idea sounds like a smart one. And the only proposed solution so far. The government has yet to offer anything.

          • burlivespipe

            Right. If frog supports reasoned and rational idea, why is frog always defending knee-jerk, impulse-spewing fringe reactionaries? Me thinks frog no like logic unless served with flies…

          • Crit_Reasoning

            why is frog always defending knee-jerk, impulse-spewing fringe reactionaries?

            How does one spew impulses? Is it similar to the way that you spew bile in my direction?

            Stop hating the frog, burlivespipe. The frog doesn't hate you. The frog just wants a civil conversation.

          • Stewart_Smith

            Actually Burl, it is well established that the "frog" is a Liberal toadie. (Well, actually not a frog or a toadie, more of a cheap handsock with the primitive workmanship indicative of Henson's work before he got the funding necessary to make proper muppets.) Crit's Liberal leanings were first sussed out by the committed (or at least ought to be committed) sleuth Holimn.

            Please don't be embarrassed, many casual readers are taken in as Crit. appears to support the evil Harper regime. However, a careful exploration of his arguments virtually always show them to be a clever expose of Harper's follies through a reductio ad absurdum process.

            So let it be known that as a true believer in all things the Eyebrow tells me, I am ready to stand behind (quite a ways behind actually) my fellow Liberal in any altercation of ideas.

          • Crit_Reasoning

            Sometimes I'm a biological frog, sometimes I'm a primitive sock puppet, and sometimes I'm merely a sinister CONbot. It's all so confusing. Can't I be all three at once?

            As if that wasn't enough of an identity crisis, now you're calling me a Liberal? Hollinm didn't go that far… he called me a "lefty" (which I suppose I am, relative to him). Even he knew better than to tarnish my good name by smearing me with the "capital L-word". How dare you, sir! I'd hop off my lily pad and smack you if all these darn strings weren't getting in the way.

            Also, just because my arguments are absurd, it doesn't mean I'm clever enough to use fancypants rhetorical tricks like reductio ad absurdum. I'm much too moderate to take propositions to their logical extremes like that. Far better to rely on simple fallacies like ad hominem, especially when I'm arguing with pale-faced, blue-tinged, chuckle-headed nincompoops.

          • Phil

            Wrt left / right….did you actually complete that political compass "test" that G linked to a week or so ago? If so, ready to share?

          • Crit_Reasoning

            Bottom right quadrant. Near Gaunilon, but even closer to the origin, if you can believe it.

          • Phil

            Actually, I have little difficulty at all in believing your "score".

            And tying this in to one of your other posts from earlier today, it would be interesting to see where Coyne and Wells end up.

            Reviewing the Canada 2008 map, that puts you closest to the Green Party…does that make sense to you? Perhaps you should run for the leadership of that party. FWIW, you would very likely get my vote.

            And again I repeat my lament for the lack of political parties in the lower right quadrant.

          • Crit_Reasoning

            Reviewing the Canada 2008 map, that puts you closest to the Green Party…does that make sense to you?

            Not particularly, but we live in a confusing world. ;-)

            Perhaps you should run for the leadership of that party. FWIW, you would very likely get my vote.

            LOL. Lizzie May would chew me up and spit me out, I'm sure. Anyway, thanks for your endorsement!

          • Phil

            The Canadian political party dots are confusing, no doubt. Maybe it would be more interesting/revealing/entertaining/worthwhile to have dots for Harper, Bernier, Flaherty and so on, as well as top 10 prominenet Liberals, NDPs and so on.

            Oh yeah, and Preston Manning, that would be cool.

            Where does Ms May get that reputation from?

          • Gaunilon

            There are people closer to the political centre than I? Surely you jest.

          • Be_rad

            Logically, CR, I don't see the connection between your first paragraph and the second. 1st para is about Canada's ability to accept refugees, the 2nd is about wealthy versus poor refugees.

            Secondly, if the principle is that Canada can only take in a certain number of refugees "comfortably", then I'm not so certain where the Caandian marketplace would draw that line, if at all.

            Finally, the Martin proposal is interesting, but I presume from your editorial comment that Canada woudl then pick up the transportation and accommodation costs of successful refugee applicants – is that right?

          • Crit_Reasoning

            1st para is about Canada's ability to accept refugees, the 2nd is about wealthy versus poor refugees.

            1st para: Given that we can only accept a limited number of refugees from around the world, we should try to protect those individuals who need it most.

            2nd para: Within a given country, some people need protection more than others. The people who need protection the most aren't necessarily the ones who can afford to travel to Canada, so Martin's idea of assessing claims in the country of origin makes sense.

            Secondly, if the principle is that Canada can only take in a certain number of refugees "comfortably", then I'm not so certain where the Caandian marketplace would draw that line, if at all.

            I don't know where the line is either, but there are obviously limits to the number of refugees our country can absorb, and Canada has been more generous than most countries in opening its doors to refugees.

            I presume from your editorial comment that Canada woudl then pick up the transportation and accommodation costs of successful refugee applicants – is that right?

            Absolutely. Canada already spends large amounts of money processing each refugee applicant. Transportation costs won't make much of a difference, and hopefully the successful applicants will eventually make up the costs by becoming hard-working, taxpaying contributors to the Canadian economy.

          • Olaf

            ..hopefully the successful applicants will eventually make up the costs by becoming hard-working, taxpaying contributors to the Canadian economy…

            Well, I doubt they'll all become CPC voters, Crit. :)

          • Be_rad

            Thanks. I see now your connective tissue between first and second paras.

        • Stewart_Smith

          A comparison is not a statement of equivalence.

          Rae case is wrt "Many have suggested that the ship should have been boarded and just turned away."

          I think there is no doubt that if this ship was forced to return its passengers to Sri Lanka that there would be fatalities and possibly suicides.

          In 1939, the extent of the Holocaust would not have been known or understood by Canadians. The passengers on the St. Louis were European and many would have argued Europe should solve its own problems. The ultimate decision of sending them back to Europe was not intended to be a death sentence. Certainly it does present challenges comparing a past tragedy with a current event, we did not reject the Sun Sea so there will thankfully be no comparison in the outcome.

          I don't know how deep Rae intended the comparison; for example the role of antisemitism/racism among those proposing to send such ships back to point of origin. (John or you may jump on me for accusing Toews of being a racist, I am not making that assessment, there isn't enough information; however a quick read of comments sent into the Globe, Posts or CBC news makes it clear that it is an element among those supporting the rejection of refugee ships.

          • BGLong

            The extent of the Holocaust may have been obscure to the public at large but I suspect it
            was fairly clear to Western elites. I suspect that intelligence services that could ferret out
            Enigma were capable of reporting on the happenings on the streets of Bremen. Canada
            was not immune to public (and publicly acceptable ) antisemitism endemic throughout
            the western world ….

            http://www.independent.co.uk/opinion/commentators…

        • Jan

          Rae has been to Sri Lanka and has had experience with the government there.
          http://www.thestar.com/news/canada/article/649031

        • Jenn_

          We should be leery of comparisons that trivialize history. But that does not mean we shouldn't look to history to inform us of what MIGHT happen next. Let us say that we turned this ship around as soon as it entered our waters. Let us say that they found no other country to take them in, and were forced to return back from whence they came. Do you think they would not suffer under the hand of the government they just tried to escape from? At what point did we trivialize anything by not turning this ship away and doing it differently this time?

    • BGLong

      Take two aspirins … but not on an empty stomach.

  • Emily

    Right on Bob!

    If we refust to learn from history, we will indeed repeat it.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MS_St._Louis

  • madeyoulook

    I’m proudest as a Canadian when we’re setting the right standard for the world. We didn’t do it in 1914 for the Komagata Maru or in 1939 for the St Louis. Let’s get it right this time.

    While I am not convinced Canadians will agree on what shape "getting it right" actually entails, I commend Bob Rae for his reasoned and reasonable commentary.

    But be careful: I have not heard a single government spokescritter having advocated boarding that vessel and turning it away. So Rae and the Tories may not be that far apart on how to deal with these ~490 people; it is the next ~49,000 that will require some responsible debate.

  • http://dougsamu.wordpress.com doug_rogers

    Is anyone questioning refugees and immigration on these threads actually a Native Canadian? Or maybe all of us are descendants of immigrants? If only the Micmac had sufficient firepower and force available to them at the time…

    Welcome to a global world.

    • Emily

      We are all immigrants in this country. Some of us just came earlier than others.

      And yes, we'd better welcome a constant stream of immigrants. We need them.

      Plus of course, in a global world, people will be moving everywhere.

    • TedTylerEzro

      Actually, the Micmac had fairly good relations with the french acadian settlers.

      The English who came afterwards, not so much.

      • http://dougsamu.wordpress.com doug_rogers

        I just picked 'em out of the hat, so to speak, as likely being the first to meet the first immigrants from Europe.

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