Beyond The Commons

Beyond The Commons

Aaron Wherry covers all the goings-on in and around Parliament Hill. Follow Aaron on Twitter: @aaronwherry

Eight more for the list

by Aaron Wherry on Thursday, August 19, 2010 4:29pm - 0 Comments

For those still scoring at home, the CEO of Alberta Health Services, Charlottetown City Council, the City of Greater Sudbury, Caledon town council, former chief statistician Sylvia Ostry, New Brunswick Premier Shawn Graham, Spruce Grove City Council and the Planning Institute of British Columbia oppose the government’s changes to the census.

In such opposition, they join…

… the governments of Manitoba, Ontario, Quebec, Prince Edward Island and Nunavutrepresentatives from the United Way, Canadian Labour Congress, Toronto Board of Trade, Canadian Nurses Association and Canadian Public Health Associationthe Federation of Canadian Municipalitiescity officials in Edmonton, Calgary and Red DeerOttawa city council, the town of Smith Falls, the mayor of Fredericton, Penetanguishene city council, the mayor of Surreythe Greater Moncton Chamber of Commercethe chief economist of the Greater Halifax Partnershipthe French Language Services Commissioner of Ontariothe Canadian Marketing Associationthe executive director of the Société franco-manitobainethe Canadian Jewish Congress and the Evangelical Fellowship of Canada, the United Church of Canada, the Anglican Church of Canadathe Canadian Conference of Catholic Bishops, the Catholic Civil Rights Leaguethe Assembly of First Nationsthe Inuit Tapiriit Kanatamithe Marketing Research and Intelligence Associationthe Quebec Community Groups Network, the Canadian Bar Associationthe president of the CD Howe Institutethe Canadian Council on Social Developmentthe Association of Municipalities of Ontario, the Canadian Federation of Independent Business, the Economic Development Association of British Columbiathe Canadian Medical Association Journalthe director of Toronto Public Health, the Registered Nurses Association of Ontario, Peterborough’s medical officer of healththe Ontario Public Schools Boards’ Associationthe Canadian Association of University Teachersthe Canadian Library Associationthe Statistical Society of Canadathe Executive Council of the Canadian Economics Associationthe director of the Prentice Institute at the University of Lethbridgethe senior economist at the Canadian Centre for Policy Alternativesthe Canadian Institute of Plannersthe Canadian Association for Business EconomicsAncestry.cathe co-chairman of the Canada Census Committee, the National Statistics Councilformer clerk of the Privy Council Alex HimelfarbMr. Censusformer chief statistician Ivan Fellegi and former chief statistician Munir Sheikh.

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  • FVerhoeven

    History is rich with examples of massive followings. But is mankind the better for it?

    • Dee

      Yeah, democracy really has been an abject failure hasn't it?

      • FVerhoeven

        I think it has. Humanity could have done much better.

        • DBM

          Democracy is the worst form of Government,

          Except all the others tried.

          • Emily

            Of course Churchill also said that the best argument against democracy was spending 5 minutes with the average voter.

          • Richard

            Gordon Brown is now a firm believer in that one…

          • Oliver

            I always liked it the other way: democracy is the perfect system of government, it's just not fit for the despicable human beings.

    • frobisher

      Indeed. Including:

      the Canadian Jewish Congress and the Evangelical Fellowship of Canada, the United Church of Canada, the Anglican Church of Canada, the Canadian Conference of Catholic Bishops, the Catholic Civil Rights League

      Is mankind better for their massive followings?

      We report. YOU decide!

      • FVerhoeven

        The Globe and Mail, the Macleans Blog Central, The National Post,

        Is mankind better for their massive followings?

        I think. I decide!

    • E_B_

      I'm not sure I follow what you are saying. These are all organizations that don't want to follow where our 'leader' wants to lead us.

      Seems to me they are all resisting the option to be 'followers'.

  • wsam

    Troops haters, all.

    • Dave

      Elites, too.

      • Christopher White

        maybe a couple artists as well.

        • MostlyCivil

          Elite artistic troop haters. They probably dance funny.

          • Blacktop

            I hear some of them dance nekked in the moonlight.

          • Dave

            Where?

            Ummmm, just so I can avoid that part of town.

          • Jan

            Random sampling is the work of the devil.

  • http://nexusofassholery.blogspot.com/ Patrick_Ross

    Yawn. Let them vote with their data. They have a 1-in-3 chance of receiving the long-form census.

    Let's see them put their money where their mouth is.

    • Douglass

      I'm going to guess you mean one in three chance of getting the new National Household Survey, which is NOT a census. Just to be clear.

  • Greg

    The King does not see them so they don't exist

  • NorthernPoV

    Jeez
    such one sided media coverage!
    give the other side – all three right-wing fringe groups – equal coverage or its proves the media are all lefties!

    • FVerhoeven

      It's not a matter of left versus right; it's a matter of followers versus leaders. A census can never lead but only follow.

      • tedbetts

        Excuse me, and with respect, but WTF?

      • Mike T.

        You're right that it's not left right. But it's simple and effective vs. bat-crapping crazy!

        • FVerhoeven

          What is simple and effective? Constantly producing statistical information? Yup, that could be considered effective if we all want to become simple.

          I'd rather risk going bat-crapping crazy compared to slowly being fitted into a "straight jacket' being massively produced by Stats Canada. But hey, if you believe that one must market what one sells ( and Stats Can wants to sell a lot) then by any means, become simply….. effective!

          • TJCook

            "I'd rather risk going bat-crapping crazy compared to…"

            Ok, who's gonna tell him?

          • Jenn_

            She's a her. Francine. And she likes to deal in theories and philosophy. Not so much on practicalities and common sense.

          • Dave

            I'd settle for some uncommon sense at this point. Maybe even rare-earth sense. Any kind of sense.

          • Halo_Override

            Most days my bar is set as low as "coherence".

          • FVerhoeven

            Yes, Jenn, I'm a her, imagine that.

            Now imagine philosophy having to deal with praticalities and common sense. That would be something, eh!

          • Jenn_

            I apologize for misspelling your name, Francien. I think I've got it right now.

            And yes, that would be something. Please do imagine it.

          • tedbetts

            So you prefer that your government make policy without basing it on evidence or facts? Just, you know, make it up?

            You do realize that at some point the Conservatives will not be in government forever, don't you. You do realize that, without statistics from the census, Harper's line of "there aren't enough francophones to justify bilingualism" is very easily turned into "almost everybody is bilingual so let's poor more money into it".

            Accurate data is critical to keeping government accountable.

          • FVerhoeven

            Interesting to find out how some minds manage to work things out:

            You state: "almost everybody is bilingual so let's poor more money into it".

            Why would more money have to be poored into it when everyone is bilingual? What would be the purpose of that?

          • tedbetts

            It was an example to illustrate a point. The point being that, without reliable data, citizens have one less tool to keep their government accountable.

            Let me change the example slightly. What if some government claimed that there was that there was a surge in unilingual francophone in the home and business outside of Quebec, and they used this as a rationale to increase spending on biligual signs and training across the country. You suspect it is just a sop to some new vote-buying scheme, but how do confirm?

          • OntarioTown

            what's that saying? Oh ya, I'm not crazy, everyone else is.

          • MostlyCivil

            "it's a matter of followers versus leaders"

            Sometimes, the guys out front all by themselves are leaders.

            Other times, they're just lost.

  • LynnTO

    that's a lot of consecutive a hrefs.

  • tedbetts

    Elitists and chattering classes, all!!

    (Unless we need their money, in which case it is just their politician leaders, and oh, CD Howe gives us good press on other issues so not them; better mention sometimes pain in the butt Flanagan too because he pushes for us most of the time. Oh, and certainly didn't mean to say that all the Jewish, Catholic and Evangelical groups opposing us on this are elitists (UCC sure, but they don't vote for us or give us money). Cripes, forgot about the French language groups, they may be elitist but ils ne sont pas élitiste, d'accord?. And as for the very very many ethnic groups (ooo boy this is going to take a while)…)

  • madeyoulook

    For those still scoring at home

    Why would anyone in their right mind be scoring this at home? If today has a "Y" at the end of the day's name, there is a very good chance you've provided a comprehensive update on bandwagon attendance.

    • Mike T.

      I dunno, Alberta is still mad about the NEP and that ended decades ago!

      • Orson Bean

        There are a lot of people that are still mad about things that ended decades ago. There are even people who are still mad about things that happened centuries ago.

      • croghan27

        Indeed, and even Peter Lougheed like that one!

      • Blacktop

        IDam,ned right! The scars are still showing in Fort McMurray but only locally./ Trudeau's follies live forever. Did anyone ever suggest that Ontario should donate Sudbury's nickel so that Albertans could have pots and pans? ?

      • tobyornotoby

        The census opposition is based on anger that hasn't even occurred yet (at least not in this version of time and space).

    • Emily

      Channel turning doesn't work, that's why.

  • tedbetts

    Let me try again. Perhaps I'll rephrase.

    With respect, excuse me, but WTF?

    I mean, you do know what a census is, don't you? It is a questionnaire about the present. It isn't a person. Can't get elected. Can't even vote. Can't give speaches. Can't "lead".

    • Stewart_Smith

      psst: off his meds

      • tedbetts

        So am I if I'm typing things about things like "speaches".

        • Stewart_Smith

          actually that is how I splel when I am on my meds.

          • Stewart_Smith

            A census boldly leads!

            Sea census leads to discoveries of marine wonders http://discardedlies.com/entry/?44148_

            it is reported that it will make a grand speach upon its return to dry land.

          • brooster

            Give it a cabinet portfolio. It's gotta' have more leadership potential than some of the sock puppets already there.

        • Blacktop

          I was really worried for a minute cause I had peaches for breakfast

    • frobisher

      In the words of the inimitable Strother Martin in 1967's breakout surprise hit, 'Cool Hand Luke':

      "What we've got here is a.failure to communicate.". (Also reprised by Paul Newman, as Luke, towards the end of the film.)

      The Verhoeven seems to be advocating what someone here – was it Stewart_Smith? – aptly described as (paraphrase warning) "turning the truck lights off while careening through unknown territory in the dark.".

    • FVerhoeven

      Exactly! A census can't lead, it always follows. The data it gathers is "old" when being gathered and old when being bundled into a report. But that doesn't bother me all that much.

      What bothers me about it all is that census information is just a collection (an extremely organized collection if you will) of facts. Facts deposited belong to history while the reaction to facts form part of our future. How we are to react to facts belongs to the realm of leadership versus being a follower.

      No, the census is not a person and yet the presence of any census can hold tremendous influence within. It all depends on whether we believe we need straightjackets or whether we believe we will need regular jackets when it gets cold. One decision is based on common sense and practicality while the other decision is based on believing that humans can be in total control. I'm a believer in one of them, but not in both.

      • tedbetts

        I really am not sure what you are talking about.

        Facts are facts. They are inert. You can and should choose to rely upon facts in forming policy. But only poor leaders would either: rely only or entirely on a single set of facts; ignore entirely a single set of facts or try to avoid even the collection of the facts for fear they may contradict your previously decided direction. Good leadership takes into account all facts and applies their values to the reality, instead of the other way around. Time and time and time again, this Conservative government does just the opposite. One decision is based on common sense and practicality (values applied to reality) while the other decision is based on believing that humans can be in total control (that values must be applied regardless of or in ignorance of reality). I'm a believer in one of them (values applied to reality) but not in both.

        If that is what you are saying, then we agree.

        • FVerhoeven

          Facts relate to the incoming and the outgoing. Facts, however, remain as outcome. Do I consider facts to be inert? No, not really. Facts are in relation to history and future. What we manage to do in between (the present) is as interaction with facts.

          All of us deal with facts, and all of us deal with facts in an individual manner. But facts also deal with us in return. Beware!

        • FVerhoeven

          My suggestion would be to read Tom Flanagan's piece in the G&M today. It's about the census issue and it offers an interesting opinion. Definitely worth reading for eveyone.

      • moonvest

        Name one follower who holds tremendous influence. By definition they don't.

        Isn't what you're saying that the census is a "leader" but you don't think it should be?

        • FVerhoeven

          You're getting closer. What I'm saying is that the census is being portrayed (by some, perhaps too many) that it can be a leader. Such is a false understanding of the facts. And it is this false understanding I am protesting against.

  • Oliver

    I agree with that followers vs leaders is the underlying issue people like to pretend isn't there a lot of the time.
    I fail to see how the census fits in that frame however. Probably because it doesn't.

  • Tony

    I see The National Statistics Council in there. Are you sure about that ?

  • Gaunilon

    I think your list neglected to mention "Aaron Wherry".

    There are good arguments to be had about the census decision – an appeal to authority might be one of them, but an appeal to the opinions of a large number of unrelated organizations isn't.

    • Holly Stick

      They are not unrelated. They are Canadian organizations made up of Canadians who want good government in Canada.

  • JamesHalifax

    As I said before, if everyone whining about the census volunteers to fill one out….problem solved.

    Of course, the responses would disproportionately be coming from well paid "experts" who rely on the public teat for their paycheques, or those groups who see census data as free marketing resources.

    Sorry…..I don't care how many groups or experts demand the long form censes stay mandatory….what they think, is not my concern, and I'd say it isn't the concern of the average Canadian in any event.

    As patrick noted:

    Yawn.

  • Mandatory Jedi

    Is it just me or is Aaron the spitting image of C-3P0?

    C-3PO: Sir, the possibility of successfully navigating an asteroid field is approximately 3,720 to 1.

    Han Solo: Never tell me the odds.

    C-3PO: The odds of successfully surviving an attack on an Imperial Star Destroyer are approximately…

    Leia: Shut up!

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