Beyond The Commons

Aaron Wherry covers all the goings-on in and around Parliament Hill. Follow Aaron on Twitter: @aaronwherry

Categories: Beyond The Commons, Capital Read

Nuance alert

by Aaron Wherry on Friday, August 27, 2010 3:29pm - 0 Comments

Michael Ignatieff comments on the HST in British Columbia.

On the issue most British Columbians are talking about — the HST — Ignatieff said it was a good idea badly executed. “We’ve always believed that tax harmonization is a good thing. But the way you do it is absolutely crucial. And the way it was done here has given every politician pause for reflection. The issue is not the tax, in my view. It had to do with democratic accountability and whether trust was broken. That’s an issue for the provincial Liberals, it’s not an issue for me. We’ve been clear on HST all along. But you have to do it right. If you lose the consent of the people on this, that’s a problem for Premier Campbell.”

Tags: british columbia, Gordon Campbell, harmonized sales tax, hst, Liberal Express, Michael Ignatieff, taxation

More by Aaron Wherry

BC Blue

You meant "speaking out of both sides of his mouth alert" right?

Lord Kitchener's Own

So, if it's duplicitous of Ignatieff to say simultaneously that tax harmonization is the right thing to do, but that one nevertheless probably shouldn't ram it down the throats of an unconvinced citizenry, what is the Tory position? That tax harmonization is the right thing to do and it SHOULD be rammed down the throats of an unconvinced citizenry?

Charles H.

Tax harmonization is the right thing to do, but it's not their fault if you don't like it. Why are you looking at them like that? They had nothing to do with it. Honest.
http://secondthots.blogspot.com Dennis_F

Wait a minute. So how should the HST have been implemented? I don't get it.

c_9

I was under the impression from here in Ontario (but have not read up on this) that the big issues would be how information was communicated: what was happening and why, what prices would change, how was this a good thing, would other taxes be going down as in Ontario, etc. But debates can blow up out of nothing, so maybe all of those things were done really well and it still fell apart?

I say communication because in business that's almost always where projects fall apart. Basic concepts of Change Management. But again I stress I'm not in BC, and haven't researched this specific issue there.

http://secondthots.blogspot.com Dennis_F

Dion's Liberals were communicating the heck out of his Green Shift Tax. The more you talk about an unpopular tax, the worse it gets. These things, just like the original GST, tend to illicit gut reactions. I don't know if there's much you can do about that, which is why I find Iggy's implementation hedge unintelligible.
Andrew (not PorC)

And the media had nothing to say except how 'complicated' it was.

Next

Ease up. You are responding to a guy who thinks the joking around yesterday about the ATV – including by Harper – was a scandalous example of the MSM on full alert attack on Harper. Let's just say BC Blue doesn't quite see things the way normal people see things.

BC Blue

I sooooo hope I never see things the same as you. I thank my lucky stars for my good fortune.

BC Blue

Who wanted it rammed? Ahh right, that was Campbell…

Stewart_Smith

"Replacing remaining provincial retail sales taxes (RSTs) with value-added taxes harmonized with the GST is another area where provinces can contribute to strengthening Canada's Tax Advantage. Provincial RSTs impair competitiveness because they apply to business inputs, increasing production costs and deterring investment. By comparison, a value-added tax system provides most businesses with full tax relief through the input tax credit mechanism. Provincial sales tax harmonization is the single most important step provinces with RSTs could take to improve the competitiveness of Canadian businesses."

Above, from the budget, before Ontario & BC signed on
then below shortly after Ontario & BC signed on

"Officials in Prime Minister Stephen Harper's office ordered Flaherty to tone it down.'They asked Jim to stop talking about (the tax) so much because it's not helpful,'

Cats

The issue isn't harmonization.

The issue is that previous exemptions to the PST have now disappeared, like how there used to be no PST on restaurant food.

It is entirely within the power of the BC government to design an HST that maintains those exemptions. They chose not to.

So our taxes increased.

Angry Cats!

Stewart_Smith

look up harmonization

Cats

You can have harmonization with variable rates.

Look at alcohol and cigarettes, we manage to apply different rates of sales tax on them don't we ? And the world doesn't explode ?

Cats!

Amateur Hour

I'm sorry, I'm trying to see where Iggy either misrepresented something or claimed two opposite things to be true.

Oh, he didn't, BC Blue.

Wherry's title's also a bit misleading, as there's nothing "nuanced" about saying good ideas can be botched by bad implementation.

c_9

"there's nothing "nuanced" about saying good ideas can be botched by bad implementation."

This used to be true, but these days nuance is present even when someone uses punctuation other than an exclamation point.

Emily

The HST is a Harper/Flaherty initiative, so it's their problem.

Not Ignatieffs, not Campbells.

Cats

You are aware that the HST exists in other provinces already ?
That it was created by Paul Martin in the 90's ??

That it was Campbell's CHOICE to harmonize ?
That he had complete control over the design of the taxation program ?

Get a grip Emily. This has NOTHING to do with Harper whatsoever.

Cats!

Emily

Everyone but you is aware of the history of it.

Yes, it's Harper's problem.

Oliver

As stupid as Cats is, I have to say he's right in saying the HST fiasco in BC doesn't have much to with Harper.
Obviously it's a federal tax so the federal governemnt is involved, however Ignatieff makes the point: the problem in BC is how Liberals handled and sold it to the population.
That has nothing to do with Harper.

tedbetts

Yes and no.

Harper and Flaherty were the biggest proponents of HST. The idea did not start with Campbell but with them. Not only that, but they pushed Campbell hard on it and even had to offer billions of dollars to him to convince it was worthwhile. So if the tax is an issue, then I think it is hard to say it has nothing to do with Harper.

However, Campbell did campaign during an election against the idea so he should definitely wear most of this. Maybe he thought that conservatives would react to his "no harmonized tax" broken promise the way they reacted to Harper's "no income trust tax" broken promise. But conservatives and principles are like oil and vinegar when it comes to taxes (my tax increases are good; your tax increases are bad).
Lord Kitchener's Own

Harper and Flaherty were the biggest proponents of HST. The idea did not start with Campbell but with them.

I agree that this idea has always been championed by the feds, and it's always been the feds trying to convince the provinces, but the idea of the HST didn't start with Harper, it started with Paul Martin. You'd never know it from the way they sometimes seem to be trying to blame each other for the HST, but almost every federal and provincial Grit and Tory in the country thinks this is the right thing to do.
tedbetts

Of course. I was just responding to the specific point that it has "nothing to do with Harper". You may recall that in their early efforts to pass the buck on the HST Harper and Flaherty did indeed try to pass it off to Martin and Chretien, while their MPs were out there saying the CPC did not support the HST and only Campbell did. Just one of the things that really irks me about Harper: always trying to pass the buck, never taking responsibility.

Frankly, I suspect Campbell looked at the billion dollar bribe, looked at the huge cost savings of not having to collect or administer the PST, looked at the economic/competitive advantages of the tax and felt he was being offered a deal that was too good to pass up.

The real underlying problem that Harper has created is that bribe. As we have already
Cats

Other provinces (except Quebec) received "bribes" as well when Martin was finance minister. SO no Harper didn't "create" anything. And it would be unfair not to give the money given the history of the tax.

Plus the issue isn't harmonization.

The issue is our tax burden has INCREASED because items previously exempted from the PST are now being charged a full 12% HST.

However, it was completely possible to maintain any and all exemptions. For instance Ontario exempts junk food purchases under $4.

Campbell used harmonization as a cover for a massive tax grab.

The fact that the BC Liberals raised taxes has nothing to do with the entirely separate issue of harmonization.

Harmonization = good policy under both Liberals and Tories
Tax Grab = bad policy under BC Liberals

'Splainin' things Cats!

http://secondthots.blogspot.com Dennis_F

Well, Iggy's the one who's taking a position on it now, and he's the one that's not making any sense of it now.

The people most to blame are the provincial governments who implemented the tax. Federal governments of both stripes have offered it up, of course.

From a communications standpoint, the federal Tories have come out pretty much unscathed so far, whether one thinks that's fair or not. I suppose one reason for that is Iggy's decision not to oppose them, except in this nonsensical way, of course. But I guess he has to say something.

Lord Kitchener's Own

I just don't think Ignatieff's stance is nearly as complicated as you imply. To the extent that he's dancing a bit, it's that he's trying to avoid coming right out and saying, explicitly, that if Campbell planned to harmonize the B.C. sales tax with the GST, then he probably shouldn't have explicitly said that he DIDN'T plan to do that during the provincial election.

All Ignatieff is saying is that while harmonizing is the right thing to do, it's awfully counter-productive to the implementation of the HST if the Premier loses the public's trust by saying he's NOT going to harmonize during the election, and then turning around and harmonizing once he gets elected. To the extent that Ignatieff is being coy, I think it's mostly because he doesn't want to come right out and call Campbell a big ole' flip flopper, now that Campbell has flipped to the side of the argument that pretty much every other Grit and Tory in the country is on.
http://secondthots.blogspot.com Dennis_F

Come on. Iggy is for the tax. When politicians criticize "implementation", they're trying to have it both ways. Good thing voters tend not to buy it.
http://secondthots.blogspot.com Dennis_F

Oh, and I guess I might be the only one to find your comments regarding election intentions to be ironic? Liberals promised to scrap the GST during an election, and never did. They also promised not to form a coalition during an election, and turned around and tried to force a monstrosity of one right afterwards.
Lord Kitchener's Own

Yes yes, and the Tories weren't going to tax income trusts, and Harper was never going to appoint an unelected Senator, and they were going to take the power of controlling when elections are called out of the hands of the PM and established fixed election dates….

Isn't the whole reason Ignatieff's speech above is a little confusing because he's trying to NOT explicitly point out that Campbell is breaking an election promise, because to point that out would be hypocritical?
http://secondthots.blogspot.com Dennis_F

Rarely would you see a federal leader, especially from opposition, directly criticizing a provincial premier for breaking a campaign promise — regardless of party. It's not exactly in the Etiquette 101 playbook.

I think you're trying awfully hard to deflect blame onto Campbell. This thread is about Iggy and his unintelligible position. I agree he's in a tough spot, but maybe he shouldn't try so hard to hedge his bets. Say you're for the tax, even though you think the implementation wasn't smooth and could have been done better. Period. Next Question. Instead, he's coming across as apologetic for his own position. That never goes down well.
Lord Kitchener's Own

I think you're trying awfully hard to deflect blame on to Iggy. The Premier of B.C. and the government of Canada have agreed to harmonize their sales taxes, and yet we should all focus on how the Leader of the Opposition has gone about expressing his SUPPORT for the idea?

You say he should "Say you're for the tax, even though you think the implementation wasn't smooth and could have been done better. Period." Sure, Iggy used more words, but isn't that almost EXACTLY what the paragraph above says?
s_c_f

I just don't think Ignatieff's stance is nearly as complicated as you imply.

As CR has pointed out, Ignatieff was bashing the HST in 2009 as a job-killing "Harper Sales Tax".

I don't think his position could possibly be more complicated. I wonder what his position will be tomorrow.

tedbetts

Yeah, Emily. Just because he pushed for it, said it was critical to Canada's competitiveness, pushed for it in his budget, bribed Ontario and BC with taxpayer dollars from across the country just to try to convince them to do it, and the fact that it is federal legislation that implements it and the federal government that administers and collects it… what would make you think this had anything to do with Harper and the federal government?

Don't you know that Harper doesn't take any responsibility for any of his own actions and you must hate the troops if you try to make him responsible for his own actions.

Emily

LOL gosh, I dunno, just a wild guess on my part.

Notice how many Cons on here are batting their eyelashes and trying to look innocent?
Cats

You clearly don't understand tax policy do you Ted Betts ?

Harmonization has been the position of the department of finance under Liberals and now Flaherty.

The massive tax grab was all Campbell's idea, had nothing to do with Flaherty, and was a bad idea!

Best fishes!

tedbetts

I understand it a whole heck of a lot better than you do Cats, thats for sure.

Your "nothing to do with Flaherty" and your "nothing to do with Harper whatsoever" are laughable lies. Pure and simple.

Harper was strongly pushing for this tax and had to convince Campbell to do it. You can blame Campbell for a "tax grab" for the way it was structured all you want, but it is a complete pass-the-buck fabrication to say Harper had "nothing whatsoever" to do with this.

Your fishes are smelling.
Cats

"Harper was pushing for this tax"

Lol you clearly no nothing about the issue. Harmonization isn't a tax.

Its a process where by the paperwork small business sends to the government is cut in half because all the employees administering sales taxes are now located in Ottawa instead of in Ottawa + Victoria.

The "tax" part came in when Campbell decided to end very popular exemptions for certain goods. That's what increased the net tax burden on us.

Your lack of knowledge is getting fishy.
tedbetts

Oh Cats. Such poor reading comprehension.

It's Friday evening. Do you really have to make me continue to humiliate you by highlighting your fabrications? Really?

Ah well.

I'll keep it simple Cats so that maybe even you will understand. Please show me where I say anything about the impact of the HST?

And don't go running away hiding/cowering or avoiding or changing the subject the way you usually do. You said the HST had nothing whatsoever to do with Harper. I've called you on that. You've tried to change the topic by talking about the change in tax burden making stuff up about what I've claimed. So like you.
Cats

Lol you're the one who just tried to say that Harper "created" the "bribe" that is the long standing practice of giving provinces that harmonize money.

Just like you're the one who tried to say nobody called H1N1 an epidemic.

Pretending that you're humiliating someone and talking down to them as if you were more intelligent only works if you're NOT CAUGHT GETTING THE FACTS COMPLETELY WRONG.

Best fishes!

BTW – The tax has NOTHING to do with Harper. Nor does the harmonization. The process was created by the Liberals and after that all provinces had the legal right to participate.

The supreme court would have knocked the socks off anyone who tried to block a province from availing themselves of that option.
Cats

Ok Ok i'm still laughing at this:

"I understand it a whole heck of a lot better than you do Cats, thats for sure."

So Ted Betts says this and then proceeds in the following lines to demonstrate that he knows NOTHING about the issue !

Lolzs.

Mice prancing around, foolishly, fish falling from the sky, on a windy rock soaked beaches of English oceans day.

Lord Kitchener's Own

Emily's oversimplifying, to be sure, but "nothing to do with Harper whatsoever" is equally ridiculous.

The Tories have been trying to convince the provinces to harmonize their sales taxes with the feds for YEARS. Flaherty essentially paid for the harmonization to happen. Getting Ontario and B.C. to finally agree to do this was the end of a long running project that the federal Tories under Harper championed aggressively. As I said elsewhere, the federal Tories, the federal Liberals and the provincial Liberals all AGREE on this issue. The federal Tories talked the provincial Liberals into it, and the federal Liberals nodded approvingly from the wings.

The fact that all three parties now treat this as though it was somebody else's idea, and suddenly they're not sure it's a good one, is utterly ridiculous.

madeyoulook

The fact that all three parties now treat this as though it was somebody else's idea, and suddenly they're not sure it's a good one, is utterly ridiculous.

Welcome to Canadian Politics, 2010 version.

YYZ

Probably means it's actually a good idea.

Lord Kitchener's Own

I think that's a bit of an oversimplification.

Certainly, it's the height of hypocrisy for many Tories to be essentially arguing, "Look at those dastardly Ignatieff/Campbell Liberals! Callously supporting the implementation of a policy initiative that the Conservative Party of Canada has supported and aggressively championed for years!!!" However, to the extent that the citizens of B.C. are opposed to the HST, that's EVERYONE's problem, not just the federal Tories. The federal Tories support the B.C. HST. The federal Liberals support the B.C. HST. The provincial Liberals support the B.C. HST. They all, incredibly, will take shots at one another over the issue when the opportunity seems to arise, but don't let that confuse you. They're ALL on the same side of this issue, and that's a problem they ALL have to try to deal with. In some ways this SHOULD only be a problem for Campbell and Harper, since this was essentially their play, and Ignatieff just agrees with it from the sidelines, but logic doesn't always apply in politics.

Cats

Attacking Ignatieff over the HST is the height of stupidity. I agree with you on that.

However, I disagree on the notion that any federal party automatically supports the "BC HST" or the "Ontario HST".

Both were designed differently. They have different exemptions, different rebate mechanisms.

The Federal Liberals and Conservatives support the idea of harmonization in general.
Its design and implementation is completely within the sphere of BC provincial politics.

That's just how it is CATS!

madeyoulook

Shorter Cats: Harmonization is great, but can you keep a bunch of things separate? That would make harmonization super double cool purrrrfect.

Or something.

Lord Kitchener's Own

I do think he does have a bit of a point though, in that I believe it's up to the province (in some instances) to decide what exemptions there will be, what rebates there will be, etc… and so to some extent, Campbell perhaps deserves most of the ire.

Of course, Campbell likely deserves most of the ire for a different reason, that being that during the election he said his government would NOT harmonize the PST with the GST.
madeyoulook

Indeed. Who could have ever imagined that a Liberal party seeking power might lie about its intentions toward a sales tax during the campaign? Why, it's unheard of!
Lord Kitchener's Own

:-)

OK, THAT was a good one.

It's worth pointing out, however, that in BOTH CASES going back on that election promise was actually the right thing to do. The mistake (in terms of what's best for the province/country) wasn't breaking the promise, it was making the promise in the first place.
madeyoulook

Oh, LKO, they're all good. I am just happy for you that, once in a while, you catch on… ;)

It is more than a bit rich for a federal Liberal to be poo-pooing a provincial Liberal party (yeah, yeah, they aren't a-consummatin' like Spotlights Jack and his Orange Commie Crusaders, but play along…) over the campaign misinformation of sales tax policy.

Whazzat? Don't blame Ignatieff, because he wasn't around at the time? Oh? When did he join the Liberals? Oh. But certainly he would have known about the scrap-da-tax dishonesty of the past when he paid attention carefully to that campaign. I mean, come on, was he out of the country or something at the time, and did he stay away for years? … Oh…
s_c_f

If it was the right thing to do, then why didn't they campaign on it, rather than the opposite position? Maybe it was because most people felt it was NOT the right thing to do.
Cats

Nope.

I'd end all exemptions. Even the current GST exemption on tampons !
TO make up for the increased tax burden i'd slash the HST down to 10% from 12%.

That's how i'd handle it. But everyone can handle it differently. Its possible to have harmonization and leave your system EXACTLY THE SAME.

SO yeah, it is a PROVINCIAL issue and NOT a federal issue and it does have NOTHING TO DO WITH HARPER.

Correcting the record for the millionth time Cats!
madeyoulook

Cats, aways above: However, it was completely possible to maintain any and all exemptions. For instance Ontario exempts junk food purchases under $4.

Cats, awee above: I'd end all exemptions. Even the current GST exemption on tampons !

At least we know what you won't nibble on when you get a bit peckish…

http://secondthots.blogspot.com Dennis_F

Nuance? What in the world is Iggy talking about?

Lord Kitchener's Own

It's not even really that nuanced, imho.

We all agree that harmonizing the B.C. sales tax with the GST is the right thing to do, but I don't think the provincial Liberals did a very good job of selling that fact to a skeptical public.

Isn't that essentially all Ignatieff is saying?

http://secondthots.blogspot.com Dennis_F

I think it's less nuance and more nonsensical rhetoric meant to hide the fact that, in the end, he's for the tax. But I think you're being kind. Read the statement Mr. Wherry posted. Democratic unaccountability? Doing it right? He's not even telling us what that means, if it means anything.

Mind you, I think he's in a tough spot. He's probably doing the right thing supporting the HST, especially given his own party's history on the file. Yet he knows the tax is facing a backlash, and has to address that sentiment somehow, even if in an unintelligible way.

Lord Kitchener's Own

He means that Campbell shouldn't have said he WASN'T going to harmonize during the election if he planned to harmonize after the election. I think he's just trying to not come right out and call Campbell on that explicitly now that Campbell's on the same side of the argument as everyone else.

As for trying to hide the fact that he's for the tax, I'm not sure he's doing a good job of that ("We’ve always believed that tax harmonization is a good thing") but to whatever extent he may be trying to distance himself from the HST, I'm not sure he can be singled out for blame. What politician in the country, of any stripe, ISN'T trying to distance themselves from the HST? The damned thing had a thousand fathers, but suddenly, it's an orphan.

Crit_Reasoning

Ignatieff: We’ve been clear on HST all along.

That's pretty funny, given that Ignatieff was playing both sides of the fence on the HST last year. Remember this?

Ontario premier backtracks on claim federal Grits support his HST plan
Ottawa Citizen, September 15, 2009

Ontario Premier Dalton McGuinty was forced to backtrack Tuesday after claiming federal Liberal Leader Michael Ignatieff had pledged to support an unpopular new tax in the province.

"Earlier today during a media availability, I indicated that Michael Ignatieff was supportive of the HST (Harmonized Sales Tax) in Ontario," McGuinty said in a written statement issued late Tuesday. "This is based on my understanding derived from a number of conversations between my office and Mr. Ignatieff's office. In fact, there has been no formal agreement."
(…)
McGuinty insiders insist the two offices had communicated many times on the issue. They believe Ignatieff's denial has more to do with the looming federal election than a miscommunication between the two camps.

http://www.canada.com/news/Ontario+premier+backtr…

BC Blue

and of course this little gem Ujjall Dosannjh was sending around BC
http://bcblue.files.wordpress.com/2009/12/ujjal-d…

Crit_Reasoning

That's quite the nuanced flyer. It wasn't just Dosanjh – Ignatieff himself was bashing it as the "Harper Sales Tax" in his speeches, much to the delight of premiers Campbell and McGuinty, who were thrilled that the federal Liberal leader was taking such a "nuanced" stance on the HST.

BC Blue

Yup, that was last summer when Iffy was in Vancouver

tedbetts

and of course this little gem from a Conservative MP
http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/politics/otta…
tedbetts

And of course these gems from Conservative MPs James Lunney, Larry Miller and Dick Harris. http://www2.macleans.ca/2009/08/20/jim-flahertys-…

tedbetts

Which completely contradicts and conflicts with what Harper and Flaherty had been saying in pushing for the HST of course.

Indeed, Flaherty even claims the HST is a tax cut and not a tax grab: "Flaherty told reporters in Ottawa Monday. “This is a massive tax cut, a $5 billion tax cut for businesses in the province of Ontario and that means job creation and investment in the province of Ontario. So, this is very good economic policy over time.”

tedbetts

Igniatieff is not being clear on this because… of what a reporter said McGuinty said and then had to clarify?

Crit_Reasoning

Huh? Read McGuinty's words again. Why do you suppose he made that retraction?

tedbetts

You'd have to ask McGuinty that.

Seriously CR. Show me where Ignatieff has contradicted himself. I think he's been clear and has not wavered in his position that the HST is a good tax.

Crit_Reasoning

Seriously CR. Show me where Ignatieff has contradicted himself.

Just to be clear, you don't see any contradiction between Ignatieff bashing the HST in 2009 as a job-killing "Harper Sales Tax" and his current position?

Coyne nailed it here: http://www2.macleans.ca/2009/12/01/and-also-this/

BC Blue

"Earlier today during a media availability, I indicated that Michael Ignatieff was supportive of the HST (Harmonized Sales Tax) in Ontario," McGuinty said in a written statement issued late Tuesday. "This is based on my understanding derived from a number of conversations between my office and Mr. Ignatieff's office. In fact, there has been no formal agreement."

tedbetts

Yes, that's the passage I am talking about. Good for you.

Now, show me the two Iggy quotations that contradict each other.

Meanwhile perhaps you can explain why Harper is pushing hard for the HST and his BC MPs are saying that the Conservatives have taken no position on the HST.

Nice try Blue. Well, not even that.

madeyoulook

You just don't get it, do you, Crit. Ignatieff was clear last year. He is clear now. It's just that the two issues of clarity happen to oppose one another. But he's been clear all along. Crystal.

Geez, do you have to have everything explained to you?

s_c_f

Wasn't Martin the one who said "let me be clear" every time he said something, then proceeded to say something completely vague and ambiguous. Is this becoming a Liberal tradition?

madeyoulook

Nah. It's a politician's tic, and it crosses party lines.

s_c_f

Maybe so, but the phrase invoking the word "clear" is not common to all pols.

Here we have "We’ve been clear on HST all along".
Martin would say "Let Me Be Very Clear".
I seem to recall Obama says the phrase too. Not all pols say it. Just the ones that tend to be completely vague, ambiguous and amorphous. The ones that are never clear. Harper says it too.

When someone uses the phrase, they are usually not clear, while those that do not say it might be clear. The fact that one needs to say it says something.

http://viableopposition.blogspot.com/ Open_Democracy

One need look no further than the example of Nova Scotia to see what can happen to the HST over time. In 1997 when three of the Atlantic provinces implemented their HST programs, the rate was set at 15% on more items but at a greatly reduced rate to the former Nova Scotia PST/GST combination of 18.7% (the HST eventually dropped to 13% based on cuts to the federal portion). In its 2010 budget, Nova Scotia raised its component of the HST by 2 percentage points resulting in a new 15% HST, the highest in Canada. This move was made to directly combat the province's growing deficit/debt issue. Nova Scotia residents were sold the HST in 1997 on the basis that they'd be paying less tax on a wider range of goods. Now they find that they are paying nearly the same amount of tax (if the GST was 7% as it was in 1997) that they did prior to implementation but on a far wider range of goods. If the new 15% HST is being used to pay down the deficit, it is obviously not revenue neutral and likely never was at any level.

I don't think people object to paying taxes that are reasonable, but when it's a clear tax grab and governments try to fool us into thinking that it isn't, that's when Canadians object. Apparently, we aren't quite as stupid and unable to think for ourselves as what our elected officials think. Perhaps issues like the HST will motivate all of us into demanding recall legislation right across Canada.

http://viableopposition.blogspot.com/
tedbetts

I think the BC Liberals themselves have conceded that it was not implemented very well. I remember explicit comments along those lines when they finally, just weeks before it was going to be law, started rolling out a communications strategy and website.

Contrast that with the Ontario Liberals who actually were out campaiging positively in favour of the HST as a positive good – rather than trying to bury the issue and hope it went away like the BC Liberals and federal Cons – with a full blown dedicated website, full page newsprint ads, cabinet ministers going anywhere and everywhere to sell it and even McGuinty himself in an ad promoting it.

I think you can see the difference in the polls between Ontario and BC. Of course, in Ontario, it helps when your main opposition party is trying to oppose it and support it at the same time.

http://secondthots.blogspot.com Dennis_F

I don't get the sense that Ontarians are buying the HST spin. It's a different political culture here. But I suspect it will have an impact on the next election.

tedbetts

We can argue about "buying it" or not, but my point was simply that (1) McGuinty was much more up front and direct with voters, didn't try to hide or avoid it and in fact took the opposite approach, proactively trying to sell it as a positive good and (2) according to polls, Ontarians care far less about the HST.

As for an election, are you saying the BC election will be impacted? Probably, though that is a little ways away so who knows how much and how much the anti-HST vote gets split between the NDP and whatever shape Vander Zalm's protest group takes. As for Ontario, I'd be surprised. McGuinty doesn't seem to have been hit by the HST in any way (the poll numbers have dropped a bit lately but it doesn't seem to be related to HST). Hudak is taking the nonsensical position that this is a bad tax but he won't do anything about it if given a chance (worse, he's trying to squirm around and avoid the issue of what he would do). The election is a way off and there does not seem to be any movement against the HST like there is in BC. And its done: It's not like opposition to the HST will even be an election issue 2 years from now.
Lord Kitchener's Own

Not like in B.C. though I don't think. Would you agree with that?

s_c_f

I would agree with that. In fact, I think it will have no impact in Ontario. But I also think Mcguinty will lose for a whole lot of other reasons.

http://secondthots.blogspot.com Dennis_F

If the Hudak Conservatives propose a 2-point cut in the HST, which is apparently being considered, then you can sure bet it will have an impact.

Style

This sounds like an adaptation of his position on the Iraq war: there were good reasons to do it, and bad reasons not to do it, so, on balance, it was the right decision, or at least wrong for the right reasons, as opposed to the alternative which may have been right, but in the wrong way.

BC Blue

.. like when he talks about coalitions but not necessarily coalitions when he's talking

Style

It's sophistrycated…

BC Blue

Iffy has a bit of a problem talking out of both sides of his mouth when he gets here to BC but no harm, as we are use to it from Liberals.

"On Tuesday, Mr. Ignatieff promised a North Vancouver-based newspaper that Canadian naval ships would be built in nearby shipyards for the first time in decades should the Liberals form the next government."
Emily

But last week's legal case in defence of the HST, launched by six business groups, brought public attention to the fact that the HST is wholly and completely a federal tax, mandated by federal legislation passed by Parliament.

Read more: http://www.calgaryherald.com/news/backlash+could+…

BC Blue

lol oh my… are you seriously this obtuse or just trolling?

Emily

Oh….did I write the article, or just post it?

Are you fudging or just trolling?

Lord Kitchener's Own

Sure, but this argument ignores the fact that it was completely within the Premier's power to REJECT harmonization and stick with a PST, and more importantly, that the Premier said during the election campaign that that was what he was going to do.

The HST is arguably "wholly and completely a federal tax, mandated by federal legislation passed by Parliament" but it's a "federal tax" that the provincial government benefits from, and that can only be implemented by provincial decree.

Emily

Federal tax nonetheless, and one the province was paid to put in place.

And like the article says, this could cause Harper trouble in one of his bastions.

Blacktop

Never mind Harper. It dooms Campbell to a hollow old age.

Olaf

You're making the assumtion that Emily wants to be intellectually honest more than she wants to sling mud at Harper at every opportunity. I would caution you that such an assumption is 100% incorrect.

Emily

I guess none of you have your glasses on today. Or you're such Conbots you're being willfully blind.

'In his 2008 budget address, Stephen Harper called the HST "the single most important step provinces with retail sales taxes could take to improve the competitiveness of Canadian businesses."[11]'
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harmonized_Sales_Tax…

Lord Kitchener's Own

I guess none of you have your glasses on today. Or you're such Conbots you're being wilfully blind.

Wait a sec. Did Emily just call ME a "Conbot"?

'Cause that would be AWESOME!!!
Crit_Reasoning

Anyone who disagrees with Emily is an honorary Conbot.
madeyoulook

Honorary. Pfffft. No voting privileges, no newsletter, can't run for a position on the executive…
Lord Kitchener's Own

If I can't get the newsletter, where do I get the talking points???
Al O'Wishes

If I can't get the newsletter, where do I get the talking points???

Sun newspapers.

Blacktop

I've noticed that about Emily.

TwoYen

Yes, irritating spam by people like Emily risks turning the Macleans blogs into a vehicle for the same type of mindless trash we see on the CBC boards. One of the nice features of the Macleans blogs has been that many posters actually let a conversation take place. Emily comes along with her mindless insults and ruins it for everyone.

Calgary Junkie

Iggy's mistake is that he talks too much like an analyst. He is now a politician, and should stick to explaining and advocate his policy positions. There is no need to criticize, or even mention, HOW the HST was introduced by Campbell.

Something like: "We’ve always believed that tax harmonization is a good thing. It brings in efficiencies, helps manufacturers, blah blah".

If a reporter presses him to comment on Campbell's sneaky implementation, just say: "I will leave that kind of analysis to you guys".
Julie

Harper, Ignatieff, Campbell and Hansen, ALL lied about the HST. Harper said no to the HST, and then gave Campbell $1,6 billion, to force the HST through. Ignatieff, first said no, now supports the HST, to the hilt. Campbell and Hansen, lied about the HST, not on their radar. We now know, Campbell and Hansen, lied, deceived and cheated, to win the election. Snakes in the grass, every one of them. Campbell's Liberal party, is a faux party, he is actually a Conservative, working for Harper. This country, is corrupt. It makes no difference what party is in office, the results will be the same. Millions of our tax dollars, will be given to, banks, large corporations, gas and oil company's. They will also be given huge tax reductions. I saw exactly, that motion passed by, the entire House of Commons, on TV. Now, we have, greedy bottomless pits of big business, at the trough, squealing for the HST as well. BC's HST goes directly to Harper, BC people, will get no benefit from the HST, what-so- ever.
Mark R

If I was an MSM headline writer.
Ignatieff blasts Premier Cambell on HST.
"trust was broken"
Alas these types of headlines are reserved for other people and parties.
Ignatieff is being quite divisive getting involved in provincial politics like this.
madeyoulook

Ignatieff is being quite divisive getting involved in provincial politics like this.

The man is running on health care and early child care & education and more farmer's markets in the city. The man is provincial politics.