Beyond The Commons

Aaron Wherry covers all the goings-on in and around Parliament Hill. Follow Aaron on Twitter: @aaronwherry

Categories: Beyond The Commons, Capital Read

Toward a total ban on analogy in political rhetoric

by Aaron Wherry on Monday, August 30, 2010 10:39am - 0 Comments

From last week’s hearings of the industry committee, the former chief executive officer of the Saskatchewan regional health authority tries to draw a straight line from torture to the census.

“What you can guarantee by compulsion is a response: You put a gun to somebody’s head, they’re going to say something,” Mr. McFarlane told the House of Commons industry committee.

“It’s almost like the argument for water boarding: if you water board enough people, they will tell you something,” Mr. McFarlane said. “The question is are they telling you something that’s reliable? Are they telling you something that’s usable?”

Of course, since torture is abhorrent, law enforcement agencies in most civilized nations must acquire their answers through interrogation and investigation, aided by tools such as subpoenas and search warrants. So perhaps Statistics Canada could be assigned its own police force, with the same powers, charged with acquiring the demographic information it requires.

Or we could all agree here and now that analogies, when discussing contested political or social issues, are almost always misused and should therefore be almost always avoided.

Tags: census, industry committee, torture, waterboarding

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Emily

Nothing like going over the top.

We didn't mind real torture when the US did it, but somehow a census is the end of civilization.
John D

Saying that analogies should be banned when talking about politics is like dropping a cat in the bathtub, now really…

Stewart_Smith

Actually banning analogies would be like trying to stop a ceiling fan by through a feather pillow at it.
Bob

Wait, we can throw Cats in a bathtub?!

Stewart_Smith

Bob, it is great thoughts like that, that make you better than Olaf!
Sigh

That was my initial reaction too. But I rather like the idea of throwing Cats at a ceiling fan.
Dave

You can throw Cats, yes, but not cats!

McC_

not pretty: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lrI7mHVHlEc

TJCook

A ban on analogy in political rhetoric would be like a jackboot on the throat of the baby of democracy.
Mike T.

Can't we jsut agree the government has no reasonable position on this one so has resorted to unreasonable ones?

hollinm

Mike T…..of course that's what the lefties in this country want. For the rest of us to simply shut up. After all it is only their views that count. Right! The fact is that some may have a different opinion means it is time to pull out all the stops and make sure they are demonized from having a position which is contrary to what the elitists and the lefties think in this country. Because you don't like the analogy doesn't mean there is no truth to it.

Criacow

No — because there *is no truth to that analogy*, there is no truth to it. This false argument about political spectrum and a call on non-existent elitism just adds more lies to a pile of lies.

Do you — does anyone — actually believe that the members of the Conservative government are not of the elite class themselves, along with the rest of our political class? Seriously?

Tryon

What, is there some mysterious point of income or where people no longer resent being arbitrarily told what to do by others? When is it? $100,000, $200,000? A million? (Lotto winners beware! ) I think you guys are confusing principle with principal. Or else you're just plain confused.

Standing By

Nice defence Hollinm.

So would you also say that the sanctions associated with failing to fill out the farm census are also analogous to waterboarding and torture?

What about the sanctions set out in the Ontario Traffic Act?

Tryon

What about them? The first are arbitrary, unnecessary and ideologically driven, the second a logical corollary of safe roadways. And BTW when was the last time you spent three months in prison and had a criminal record hung around your neck for refusing to answer a bureaucrat's queries? I'll bet you shook it off like water off a duck's back, right?

TJCook

"The fact is that some may have a different opinion means it is time to pull out all the stops and make sure they are demonized…"

Actually, it's the fact that "some" have a nonsensical opinion and want to turn it into public policy that has people upset.

As for pulling out all the stops and demonizing people, it's not the pro-long form side that's comparing a census to brutal violence.
Out There

Not to single you out here, but I have long wondered whether some Conservative supporters are opposed to having a mandatory long form census simply because the Leader is opposed to it. If Harper changes his mind and decides to implement the long form census after all, would you do a U-turn and decide that you like it after all?

I say this because there doesn't seem to have been a groundswell of support for the idea of eliminating the mandatory long form census before Harper suddenly decided to eliminate it. Unlike the gun registry, which has been consistently complained about by a certain segment of the rural/conservative/libertarian population, there hasn't been long-standing opposition to the census that I know of.

no more non-partisan

I can only give you my experience. I received the long form during the last census. As I completed it I was shocked at the level of personal information that was being sought about me and members of my family that I had to provide without their consent. Honestly it made me furious. As a dutiful citizen I completed the form but included a very long comment saying I was disgusted by the intrusive nature of the questions that I was being asked to answer by my government. I've had my home broken into and vandalized 3 times in the last 15 years and I had exactly the same reaction after those experiences. Many may feel I over-reacted but I can tell you I I felt violated in the same way.

gottabesaid

I'll give you my experience… I was what they call a 'vacancy check representative' during the 1991 census. My job was to find out why forms weren't filled out in my neck of the woods, and then get them filled out. So, it put me on the firing line for all the folks who refused to do the census because it was a tyrannical intrusion. Maybe it was because the folks were intimidated by a 170-pound pimply university student, but no-one I talked to refused to fill it out on those grounds. Nobody. It was generally just a mix-up, forgot to do it, etc. Maybe the questions have changed since then, I don't know. However, in the 20 years since then, nobody I've ever talked to has ever said, 'Boy, that long-form census needs to go. It's too intrusive.'

I don't disagree with what you've said, and I appreciate that you feel violated by the long-form census. Just thought, since we're tossing around anecdotes, I'd toss mine in as well.
no more non-partisan

I don't doubt your experience. Facebook has more per-capita participants in Canada than in any country in the world so we're not opposed as a population to giving up personal details. Thankfully our privacy commissioner has stepped in to protect us from ourselves. I can tell you I will never complete another long form census and rather than objecting in writing I will accept whatever "punishments" are due. Those who can afford it less than me will pay a proportionately higher price one way or the other.
gottabesaid

Well, you won't have to worry about any punishments… seems like we're all done with that. I do know that if I happen to get one of these 'National Household Survey' things, however, I'm going to mail it directly to my MP to let him know it's a colossal waste of money. I don't agree with spending more taxpayer money on an exercise that will provide unreliable, unusable data. I'd rather they just get rid of the long form altogether rather than engage in this farcical survey.
no more non-partisan

It's your right to protest and you should exercise your right. I wish I'd sent my form to my MP to let him know what a colossal intrusion it was. It sounds like you would be experiencing the same frustration and anger that I did. It's a matter of perspective.

As far as the Survey is concerned the government can make the data available to whoever wants to access it in the case of public institutions or pay for it in the case of private clients at the value that they believe it's worth. If it's worth nothing no one will buy the data. We could do a "it's accessed over 11,000 times per day" to promote its usefulness.
Jan

Which questions did you find intrusive?
Tryon

The one that asked if I wanted to go to prison for not answering the rest!

Emily

Agreed. Sums it up in a nutshell.

[my comment was meant to go here...I am agreeing with Mike T, not the loon at the committee.]
Tryon

No reasonable position? How about the upright and independent stance of free people everywhere? Or is the only position you endorse the prone and submissive posture of people getting it in the *** by the state?

Criacow

Not to mention: in order to put a gun to someone's head, the census taker would need, I don't know, *a gun*.

The responsibilities a citizen has in this country are so small, it's kind of shameful that even the few that remain get shirked. Pay taxes, do the census, vote. That so many find it abhorrent to do even those three things? Sad.

JustinWordswrth

A gun is precisely what the census taker has if the census is decreed mandatory, ie., if non-compliance is punished.

It's kind of shameful that freeish citizens perceive that people exist for the preservation of governments, and not vice-versa.

It's kind of shameful that freeish citizens lament that their responsibilities to the state are too small and few. When they expose their belief that the individual is a mere pawn, always and forever to be labouring and sacrificing himself for the Power and the Glory of the Great State.

Pay taxes, do the census, vote. Any limitations? Of course not. To suggest limitations would be to suggest that the individual has some rights. But how could an individual have rights if it his destiny in life to serve as a cog, dutifully toiling to ensure the uninterrupted humming of the greasy machine of state?

wellwell

Awww, poor Justin – has the big bad government kept you from achieving your true destiny?

DBM

The culprit is not analogy, but hyperbole.

TJCook

That's an important point, given that hyperbole is a hundred billion times more damaging than analogy.
Tryon

Oh Yeah! Good distinction! So I guess the old adage is true: one man's prison term is another man's vacation. (Except the statscan sentence is so much longer than just a few weeks in Florida. Enjoy!)

Emily

Agreed. Sums it up in a nutshell.
no more non-partisan

It's not an analogy or straight line at all. He's simply describing the full spectrum of coercion that governments are willing to accept in order to extract information from its citizenry. Where you put imprisonment or substantial fines on the spectrum is a matter of opinion in the case of the census. Social engineers and marketers think it's a bargain.
Stewart_Smith

Since I am feeling generous, thought I would help out the Conservative faithful out there.

Once you have gone with the analogy to torture esp. waterboarding, shouldn't you be immediately pointing out that "Count Iggy is in favour of torture"?

Style

You're just trying to trick a Conservative into admitting Mr. Ignatieff has a consstent, principled stance on state coercion. But that might contradict the usual claim that he's just in it for himself.

MostlyCivil

It's like throwing the baby out with the bathwater under the bus that rolls on the wheels of justice over the toes of the jackboots of tyranny.

Yeah. That's it.
http://intensedebate.com/people/Ottawa_Centrist Ottawa_Centrist

This reminds me of the time I was waterboarded for not completing the census. I was at home at 10:30 p.m., reading in bed (The Force and You: fast-tracking your appointment to the Jedi Order), when government agents came in and waterboarded me until I completed the two questions I had refused to complete.

The government now knows when I leave for work and how many bathrooms I have.

Thwim

Ah, but did they count your toilets while they were there? That'd be truly beyond the pale.

MostlyCivil

Where do you think they waterboarded him?

http://intensedebate.com/people/Ottawa_Centrist Ottawa_Centrist

Worst part is I only have an outhouse.

Tryon

It also knows you're a good, i.e., compliant, little Canadian, who'd probably tell them the most intimate details of your sex life if they promised it would go no further than the Statscan lunchroom.

Dave

If analogy is outlawed, only outlaws will analogize.

Sigh

The analogy register is the first step to confiscating all our analogies.

Dave

From my cold, dead, um, mouth? fingers?

sbt

"From last week’s hearings of the industry committee, the former chief executive officer of the Saskatchewan regional health authority tries to draw a straight line from torture to the census."

Actually, that wasn't at all what he was doing. He was simply saying that we don't really know the reliablility of the answers people give on the long-form census. As someone who's been tracking this story isn't that the more important statement made by Mr. McFarlane?

wellwell

On what basis was McFarlane saying that the census answers might not be reliable? He claimed that since tortured confessions are often unreliable, therefore the answers given on a compulsory government form might be similarly unreliable. So the aptness of his analogy is directly relevant here – the analogy is the only "evidence" he has offered.

Nice try, sbt.

sbt

Well, unless you believe there really are Jedi living in Canada then I think there is at least some evidence that the answers given on the census aren't 100% reliable. The question really is will a voluntary survey lead to more reliable data than a mandatory census. That is, will people fill the form out more truthfully.

wellwell

Sorry, sbt, but mere conjecture is not enough. People used to be embarassed to admit that they were ignorant – but McFarlane appears to be positively flaunting his own lack of knowledge. And you're suggesting that historically significant government projects should be upended on the same basis.

Who is going to provide the certainty that you're seeking when comparing the voluntary and manadory approaches? No one, that's who, because you're not really interested in an answer – this is just a smokescreen to shield the government from the effects of yet another of its own stupid decisions.

Well, Canadians are not as stupid as this government appears to be.
Jenn_

From the website:

"Jediism is not fiction. Our ways are based on ancient wisdom as well as modern philosophies. Our ways are modern adaptations of Taoism and Buddhism. We encourage activities that cultivate physical and mental health, such as martial arts and meditation." Emphasis mine.

Yes, they also like George Lucas and the Star Wars movies. More particularly I would imagine, they like the idea contained therein–that there is a "force" which can be used for good (or evil). And really, if you've ever meditated that's kind of the same thing, isn't it?

Jan

Statscan has an international reputation for reliable data. No wonder our health care planning is in crisis – with brains like this and Health ministers like Clement.

Sean

I'd like to again express support for the idea of tying access to certain government services or entitlements to census participation. Think of it a giant metaphoric hug in exchange for the small act of participation. Everyone's happy then: Clement, Gordon, the libertarian hermits…

MostlyCivil

"Right then…you're in kidney faiilure, and you'd like to receive home dialysis? Okay then, we'll need to install a new waterline for your home-hemodialysis unit. It works best when hooked up near the washroom. Can you tell us which washroom is closer to your bedroom? Sir?
Sir?"

On the plus side, perhaps the waiting list for kidneys will shorten…

Sean

Nicely played.

MostlyCivil

Um. Well…actually…
bergkamp

"Or we could all agree here and now that analogies, when discussing contested political or social issues, are almost always misused and should therefore be almost always avoided."

Why is it a bad analogy, Wherry? McFarlane's point is if you use coercion to solicit information, you are likely to get dodgy information. And coming from a senior bureaucrat, this mundane statement would not garner much attention if McFarlane said something liberals agreed with.

I read that StatsCan expects about 50-60% compliance rate if long form census is made voluntary. Think of all the people who are being coerced into answering questions they are not comfortable with and you have to wonder how good census info is. People who think that Canadians are not lying on their census forms are deluded and/or naive.

TJCook

It's a bad analogy because it compares a mandatory census to torture. At some point, an analogy can get so extreme that it completely fails.
SunshineCoaster

The whole point of this article was to demonstrate how foolish and illogical it is to use an unrelated analogy to try to prove a point. Information obtained by waterboarding is likely to be unreliable. That has absolutely noting to do with information obtained by requesting people to fill out a census form. But then you compound your foolishness by "wondering" how good the census is and then claiming people are deluded if they think Canadians aren'tlying on the census forms. And your logic is?

Read up on statistics. You will find that there are ways that statisticians can determine if people are probably lying on their census forms. This is mostly because people who resort to lying on such a innocuous form are not very smart. You will also find that these are the times when a field representative from StatsCan comes calling to ask you personally if you really have no bathrooms, or which Jedi congregation you belong to. That usually generates a more reasonable response. Statisticians also have methods to ignore data that is known to be unreliable without harming the overall usefullness of the surveys.

If you read up, you will find that the StatsCan census IS VERY RELIABLE

http://dougsamu.wordpress.com doug_rogers

On a Slippery sLope to Godwin's Law. Fail.
Bill Greenwood

Look, you could enact a campaign to neuter all the albino Bigfoot in Clearwater County, Alberta, and it would have as much positive impact on the lives of most Canadians as most of what has been accomplished with the info provided by the long form census, so let's just get over it, already.
Remember, the debate over the long form census is mirrored by the Wheat Board debate and the gun registry debate. It's not about the highly dubious benefits of such federal intrusions into our lives. It's about how these federal intrusions lessen the quality of life for us, while providing no tangible benefits for anyone else.
When you consider the census debate, remember this salient point- Those who are lined up against the changes to the census are supporting the state's right to imprison citizens who are would refuse the census, much as the federal government spent enough money to mount a manned Jupiter landing so that they could jail a group of citizens who committed the heinous act of selling bootleg barley simply as an act of political protest. Is that really the kind of Canada you want? Really?

Jan

Great articulation of the 'scrap the long form' position. And unlike Mike Lake, you didn't have to resort to the hackneyed poor, single mother or three or that water boarding comparison from the executive from a Western health authority.
You, you kept it real, by bringing in the Jupiter landing. It's a shame the Conservatives didn't get you to the committee meeting Friday, They were mising a closer.

Tryon

But IS it mere analogy? When the StatsCanners keep nudging people with the no-so-subtle reminder, "It's the law, Sir" aren't they in fact pushing up against us with the strong arm of the state? Three months in prison and $500 fines, may sound mild to the Arron Wherry, but they can be just as taxing on one's peace of mind as the threat of water-boarding. ALSO: why isn't the media reporting on the numerous OTHER surveys done by Stats Can, 24/7. 365 days a year, year in, year out? These random inquisitions, usually lasting a period of six months, are likewise mandatory and even less justifiable than census gathering. Statscan is metastasizing into a data monster with a virtual army of employees, dreaming up ever new and intrusive ways of knocking down the wall between private and public information.