Beyond The Commons

Aaron Wherry covers all the goings-on in and around Parliament Hill. Follow Aaron on Twitter: @aaronwherry

Categories: Beyond The Commons, Capital Read

The Russians are (every few months) coming (near to Canadian airspace)

by Aaron Wherry on Saturday, September 4, 2010 1:02pm - 0 Comments

David Pugliese gets the numbers on Russia’s near-invasion.

After the Canadian government raised concerns about the Aug. 24 patrol, NORAD issued a statement noting there wasn’t anything unusual about the flight.

“At no time did the Russian military aircraft enter Canadian or United States sovereign airspace,” stated NORAD spokesman Canadian Navy Lt. Desmond James. “Both Russia and NORAD routinely exercise their capability to operate in the North. These exercises are important to both NORAD and Russia and are not cause for alarm.”

Tags: Canada, NORAD, Peter MacKay, Russia

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Emily

But Mackay only gets his boxers in a bunch about it when he wants to buy some expensive new toys…er, planes.
brooster

The government will probably scramble their new F35s every time Sarah Palin looks out her window and sees suspicious activity in Russia.
danby

Elect that socialist/separatist coalition and they'll be inviting the Russians into our air space
chet

To today's leftist, the only real enemies are ideological – dastardly conservatives.

Terrorists, rogue states, authoritarian militaristic regimes? Concoctions by 'neocons' to fool the public of course.

As for historical wars started by such regimes, and the important lessons to be learned therefrom? Well, to the leftist Canadian, history started midway through Trudeau's first term.

brooster

If NORAD's OK with these exercises, what are you and our hypervigilant government so concerned about?
Jenn_

You'll be having us afraid of apples soon, presuming we aren't already.

brooster

Well, yes, of course…apples have been known to suddenly penetrate the airspace over unsuspecting targets without any provocation whatsoever, inflicting damage to the upper reaches of their sovereign physical property…as Newton found out. Fortunately for us all, he immediately recognized the gravity of the situation.

bergkamp

" … he immediately recognized the gravity of the situation."

Hahahahahahahah. Nice one.

NorthernPoV

Thanks Chet, for helping us understand just why the Cons are attempting this type of fear mongering.
We can now see with our own incredulous eyes that for those who are playing with less than a full deck … it works.
harrylimelives

To today's CONservatives, the enemy within are those who ask the gov't to be accountable, followed by suspicious people of non-white nature. Newly added to the checklist are Americans who stand too closely to liberal-looking trees, anyone appointed to an organization that expects to have an opinion that contrasts our own. Then there's Garth, Quebecois and short pants.
Dave

Why are right wingers so bloody scared all the time? Walk up behind them and go "Boo!" and they run screaming in circles like little girls….

Well, strike that, my six year old daughter has far more fortitude than a conservative.

Mike T.

I say we spend billion and billions to put on our own useless displays of force!
bergkamp

“Both Russia and NORAD routinely exercise their capability to operate in the North. These exercises are important to both NORAD and Russia and are not cause for alarm.”

Which actaully means Americans and Russians are doing exercises in and around Canadian territory while we do little but 'raise concerns'.

Dave

In what part of Canadian territory?

Blacktop

It doesn't have to be the Arctic. In the good old days of the Cold War both Russian subs, electronics "trawlers" eaves- droppers and Soviet Long Range bombers, but being used fro reconnaisance, regularly came down the West Coast. What they are doing now is the same sort of thing. Eliciting a response and recording the radars and signals response. What's different now is that the Cold War is over and we might remae thses Putin Games.

DerekPearce

You do realize we have primary air bases in Cold Lake Alberta and Bagotville Quebec, and that the aircraft based there are for NORAD patrols? And that we have further air bases in BC, NL, ON, and NS? Just in case you didn't.

bergkamp

Canada is insignificant. Canada is Poland between Russia and Germany, if you like.

And I find it odd that we participate in games where they are probably carving up Canada. It's like turkeys being for thanksgiving.

Jenn_

I didn't realize before today how much you disliked Canada, bergkamp.

bergkamp

Canada is insignificant militarily. Canada will be squashed like a bug if US and Russia go to war. NORAD exercises let them plan how they are going to do it.

Otherwise, I have no idea what you are talking about Jenn_.

I dislike Canadian government immensely but quite like, mostly, Canada and Canadians. I know many liberals associate all three together but they are quite distinct to me.
Jenn_

Okay. I was just going by "Canada is insignificant." And, "America had proper intellectuals" and "And in Canada we get a document that sounds like it was put together by a bunch of lawyers, accountants and schoolmarms."

Thanks for clarifying.
Holly Stick

Funny, I dislike the current government of Canada immensely, too. But that is because, like most Canadians I prefer peace, order and good government.
Blacktop

And who the hell are you? You sound like you are transmitting from the wrong side of the border. Unfortuntely you are right.

burlivespipe

is the code word from this 'turkey'? That won't reflect well on Harper…
McC_

but Poland wasn't allied with Germany or Russia with active participation in 2 heavily institutionalized mutual defence organizations.

bergkamp

" In order to make perfectly clear the position of His Majesty's Government in the meantime before those consultations are concluded, I now have to inform the House that during that period, in the event of any action which clearly threatened Polish independence, and which the Polish Government accordingly considered it vital to resist with their national forces, His Majesty's Government would feel themselves bound at once to lend the Polish Government all support in their power. They have given the Polish Government an assurance to this effect.

I may add that the French Government have authorised me to make it plain that they stand in the same position in this matter as do His Majesty's Government. " N Chamberlain, March 1939

US would treat us like UK did with Poles – help people but let country be destroyed.

If US and Russia go to war, US would allow Canada to be decimated because it makes a nice buffer.
Jenn_

If the U.S. and Russia go to war, it won't be pretty for us. On the other hand, who wants to die the agonizingly slow death of radiation poisoning that the rest of the world will suffer? I'd just as soon get it over with in the big blasts, thanks.

But what's your point? Do you seriously believe the U.S. and Russia are about to duke it out? You know, an asteroid will get us sooner or later, the sun will burn out, and any number of other FOR SURE things in our future to worry about. Why get all bothered about this one, unlikely possibility?
http://intensedebate.com/people/Ottawa_Centrist Ottawa_Centrist

If US and Russia go to war, it is MAD. If we weren't destroyed by proxy, proximity would do us in.
bergkamp

I agree.

Don't mind me – I was playing board game Risk the other day so I was thinking more in terms of armies/tanks/soldiers than I was nukes. If Russia decided to invade from the West/North and not use it nukes, Americans would push up into Canada and defeat the ruskie hordes before they get to America. Canada would be free country but destroyed.
McC_

you proved my point not yours. The analogy is a small country between two great powers. For the Canada between the US and and Russia to be similar to Poland between Russia and Germany, our NORAD and NATO alliances would have be with Western Europe without the US, and we would have to have irredentist issues with both Russia and the US. sheesh

Emily

Cons are afraid of everything in history.

It's why they know nothing of today's world.

theintellectual

despite how it may seem in our cushy padded world, there are indeed many things to be worried about. nuclear basket cases like north korea and (possibly iran) are good examples. not to mention that fact that about 20-26 terrorist attacks are stopped annually every year in the states and canada. world peace is impossible and the moment you fool yourself into thinking otherwise, that is when you are most vulnerable.

Jenn_

Ohhh. Now I understand Cats.

Scaredy-Cats! It makes so much more sense now.

Stewart_Smith

LOL, first snark, now meeeowww!

Jenn_

Dammit! I had resolved to be better. But it seems I am getting worse. I shall try from now on to think, "what would Stewart say about this?" before I hit 'submit comment.' And remind myself that just because I think a thing, doesn't mean I have to type it.

Oh, apologies to Cats for my disrespect.

Stewart_Smith

Oh now Cats, lets see
he deserves the abuse,
he is resilient enough to handle the abuse,
he is clever enough to give it back,
and most importantly he is twisted enough to enough it.

so I would not worry about him.

Jenn_

I'd answer you, but I just promised myself I wouldn't say nasty things.

I'll just say I'm not worried.
Cats

Sorry i'm having trouble responding.

A kitten is chewing on my mouse cord. Plus, ya know, you haven't actually said ANYTHING to respond to eh ?

CATS!

NorthernPoV

Cats (is) Away!
Hooray
The kids get to play

Holly Stick

Maybe Cats is busy signing journalists names to petitions without their knowing?

Stewart_Smith

I thought the most interesting thing about this was the statement NORAD made… it actually goes further than it needed to. I wonder if they are not pleased with MacKay's chicken little routine. Perhaps Blacktop can inform, but I could imagine them being a little ticked that MacKay implies their professional operation is hanging on by a thread every few months.

LdKitchenersOwn

I think it's partly because the smart think to do is to work WITH the Russians in the North, rather than stupidly poking at them rhetorically for no reason, and the folks at NORAD seem to understand that much better than the Minister of Defence and the folks in the PMO.

Plus, from CANADA's position in particular, the Russians are a country we actually DON'T have territorial disagreements with in the North (unlike, say, the Americans). More to the point, the Russians want to exert the same type of internal control over the Northeast passage as we do in the Northwest passage. So, we don't have any territorial disputes with them, their exercises in the North are rare and not really any different than our own, (and never leave Russian airspace) and we agree with them on how waters like the arctic passages should be treated. Hyperventilating over routine air exercises that never cross into our territory is like, TRIPLY stupid. I mean, OF COURSE we send up fighters to shadow them, that's routine, but seriously, can't anyone convince the government to STFU about it!?!?!
Blacktop

Yes. Despite the year, I imagine NORAD is just as professional as ever, with canada sharing in its direction both in treaty and in person.

ex-DeepRiverite

Nit on the column: I believe it is the F15's were grounded after one came apart in midair just after the canopy (the pilot ejected safely), not F16s.

Blacktop

And not CF 18 which is what the CAF flies?

madeyoulook

LKO, above: I mean, OF COURSE we send up fighters to shadow them, that's routine…

Lt. James, further above: “Both Russia and NORAD routinely exercise their capability to operate in the North. These exercises are important to both NORAD and Russia and are not cause for alarm.”

Relax, it happens all the time. They're up there, we're up there.

Which is PRECISELY why Canada needs the latest Air Force capabilities. So, yes, Mackay's posturing over a single incident to make the headlines was dumb. But he needs to articulate the bigger story: they and we are up there all the time.

LdKitchenersOwn

Well, there's latest, and there's "most appropriate". There are certainly arguments to be made in favour of the F-35 as a replacement for the F-18, but I wouldn't put so many of my eggs in the "so we can shadow the Russians way up North" basket if I were the government. It's biggest advantage is stealth, which doesn't really help in the whole "letting the Russians know we're watching them" mission, and it's a single engine airplane with a shorter range than our current F-18s (it's slower too, but only marginally).

Again, there are many good arguments in favour of the F-35, but frankly, some of the best arguments AGAINST it are that it is ill-suited to doing high arctic patrols.

Heck, my own hope would be that the reason we're getting so few (65 sure ain't a lot!) is that the military really isn't planning to use these up North on a regular basis at all (or for sovereignty and security patrols generally) and have something else up their sleeve for that (perhaps greatly improved an increased UAV capabilities for one), keeping the F-35's for potential overseas missions where they'd make a heck of a lot more sense for air superiority and infantry support missions. I mean, I've read that 65 F-35s is barely enough for three active squadrons. We've got a pretty big country to protect with 3 squadrons of fighters.

madeyoulook

I wasn't making the case for F-35's here, necessarily. I believe we have had a conversation on this very point in recent history, and I agree with you that protecting our North needs whatever will help achieve that protection.

Blacktop

The US would hardly do tha (former suggestion of someone of us being caught inthe middle; my post took off and anded here. t. In case you didn't notice, what we call Canadian was bought up by US investors long, long ago. They wouldn't want to damage their property. There is marginal concern for some character following Putin to play games but I think their position vis avis the 'Stans poabbly worries then more, as well as their relatgions with Westen Europe (gas, oil) in the medium future. As the Us sinks lower in the world they might want to give a sucker punch but the US is a long way from being a sucker. There is more danger of some idiots getting ahold of some weapons grade plutonium and making a dirty squib. Iran is a possibility for the use of nukes as they seem to have arare population of religious nuts and not-bad scientists.

Blacktop

And anyway, equally puerile, let uis remember that our boys are flying CFG-18s, made in Canadfa!

Philanthropist

Canadian sovereignty must be displayed by hard facts, on the ground, in the air, and at sea. Presenting wishes to the United Nations will get us exactly nothing. Ask any Tibetan.