Beyond The Commons

Beyond The Commons

Aaron Wherry covers all the goings-on in and around Parliament Hill. Follow Aaron on Twitter: @aaronwherry

Yes, no, maybe

by Aaron Wherry on Sunday, September 12, 2010 5:36pm - 0 Comments

March 31, 2009Geoffrey O’Brian, a CSIS lawyer and advisor on operations and legislation, under questioning by the public safety committee, admitted there is no absolute ban on using intelligence that may have been obtained from countries with questionable human rights records on torture. He said it would be extremely rare but in a circumstance as grave as the 9/11 attacks or the Air India bombing, the executive branch has a “duty” to protect the security of its citizens, even if such information can “never” be used in a court proceeding.

April 1, 2009Peter Van Loan said the Canadian Security Intelligence Service has been clear about rejecting information extracted through coercion. ”As a practical matter, they get intelligence from all kinds of sources, a myriad of sources. An important part of their process is to try and identify how credible that is,” Van Loan said Wednesday. ”If there’s any indication, any evidence that torture may have been used, that information is discounted.”

April 2, 2009“I wish to clarify for the committee that CSIS certainly does not condone torture and that it is the policy of CSIS to not knowingly rely upon information that may have been obtained through torture,” Geoffrey O’Brian wrote in a letter to the House of Commons public safety committee Thursday. CSIS Director Jim Judd, who appeared before the committee on Thursday, also said O’Brian “may have been confused” in his earlier remarks. ”My supposition is that he was venturing into a hypothetical.”

TodayCSIS will share information received from an international partner with the police and other authorities “even in the rare and extreme circumstance that we have some doubt as to the manner in which the foreign agency acquired it,” say the notes prepared for use by CSIS director Dick Fadden. The notes say that although such information would never be admissible in court to prosecute someone posing an imminent threat, “the government must nevertheless make use of the information to attempt to disrupt that threat before it materializes.”

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  • Aaron

    Conservatives have a hard time making decisions.

  • Bob

    I'm opposed to torture, the Canadian government torturing or handing anyone over to a third party to be tortured, and to the use of statements derived from torture in criminal proceedings. But if CSIS hears about a bomb threat through information alleged to derive from torture, and didn't do anything about it, it wouldn't just not be doing its job, it would be complicit in any deaths that may result. Anyone willing to put an "absolute ban" on any "use" of information is an idiot.

    • Aaron

      If that is the position of the government, it should be stated clearly.

      • Cats

        Yeah!

        Civilians should know all the details about military operations! Strategy and tactics! The whole lot of it.
        Same goes for CSIS operations! Its not like they are protecting public safety or anything.

        The average, uninformed person has a right to know. And any terrorist who happens to be listening does too!

        Naive, Naive, NAIVE.

        We have elected officials who we entrust to review this type of thing. As long as there is parliamentary oversight then we should be satisfied.

        Cats!

    • Jenn_

      I agree with you and MYL, but it is very important that this not mean, "turn a blind eye and pretend you don't know what's about to happen" kind of opposition to torture. I'd go further and say that we have a duty to prevent any torture if we can possibly do so. (whether that means we don't transfer detainees to torture, or whether we can prevent others from transferring detainees to torture, or any other scenario.)

      And my great concern is that by saying we will use it in a limited way if we have to, that some will interpret that as "go ahead and get tortured information." Sort of like the way we see a speed limit of 100 to mean better not go over 120. I don't know how to make clear that we mean it.

      • madeyoulook

        Ok. But does that mean you would rather CSIS lie and say things like "under no circumstances" and "Security personnel will be jailed for paying any attention to" in order to go just a teensy bit over that self-imposed speed limit with a "don't trust it blindly but at least let's see if it fits" ?

        • Jenn_

          I would prefer if they didn't lie, but like I say I don't know how to do it so that Jack Bauer would understand that, even though he has a presumed terrorist in his grasp, and even though the bomb is set to go off in twenty minutes, you still don't torture the guy.

          I did begin my comment by agreeing with Bob, who said "But if CSIS hears about a bomb threat through information alleged to derive from torture, and didn't do anything about it, it wouldn't just not be doing its job, it would be complicit in any deaths that may result."

          • Aaron

            Jack Bauer is a fictional character incidentally based on a fictional reality contrived for entertainment value.

          • Jenn_

            You realize you are on a blog post thread with a talking cat, right? We also have a frog, a gorilla and various and sundry other talking animals or fictional characters from time to time.

            So, what's your point?

          • madeyoulook

            I've read their typing, but you've heard them speak??!?? (forced nervous politeness) Tell us, Jenn, what do you hear the voices of these animals saying?

          • Jenn_

            Seriously? You don't hear a different voice in your head depending on whose post you're reading? Your voice, BTW, is very deep and somewhat gruff. CR's is a bit like Kevin Newman. Cats is the most annoying, grating high-pitched slow drawl. Olaf's is somewhat similar to Adam Sandler. Stewart_Smith's is exactly the same as that guy I used to work with back in Orillia. Emily's is like my step-daughter's.

          • madeyoulook

            I was hoping for mellow and soothing…

          • Jenn_

            Silly. That's mine.

          • Cats

            OMG OMG!!

            I have a drawl in your mind ?? I love southern stuff! Like American southern.

            I know, I know, I know you think they're all dumb hicks down there. But I think "Gone With the Wind".

            Gone with the Wind CATS!!

            Jenn_ keep hearing voices. Don't ever change.

            (I hear my own voice when i'm reading but everyone has a unique writing style that gives a sort of unique voice to their words. So its still my own voice but different somehow.)

          • Jenn_

            I'm pleased you're pleased, but it's more like just a slowing down of some words, rather than a southern accent. For example, I hear "Soo it'ssss stillll my own voice but diffffferent somehooooowwww" and really high-pitched. Very annoying.

          • Cats

            Nails on a chalkboard ?

            Could have just said so.

            Ouch. Southern tease. Sad cats!

          • Jenn_

            Claws. Claws on a chalkboard.

          • Cats

            Either is applicable.

            The nail is the end part that's filed down, but inside the paw there's tendons and nerve endings which form the claw.

            That's why people who declaw CATS are monsters.

            Just sayin', just meowin'.

          • Jenn_

            Hey, I didn't know that. Thanks for educating me.

            And I am sorry to make you a sad cat. I don't totally hate cats, I just don't particularly like them.

          • Aaron

            LOL

            My point is that the plot of Jack Bauer is based on the fiction that torture will generate useful information. While Jack Bauer torturing "bad guys" may entertain alot of people, we should not mix that up with the real world.

  • Aaron

    The right wing fantasy that valuable information can be obtained through torture is dangerous and stupid.

    • Cats

      Ok good.

      So no debate here then ? If there is no information to be gained from torture then Canadians don't need to discuss whether to use information obtained from torture.

      oh wait ? You mean this entire thread, this entire debate, it just blew your above comment into oblivion.

      Contradictory Cats!

      • Aaron

        I have read your comment several times and I am not certain whether you support torture or not. Your earlier comments seem to endorse it as long as Canadians are not doing it. Is this a correct characterization of what you are saying?

        Reviews of the information that the Bush adminstration collected by torture are scathing. There is an article here from the New Yorker which might be a good place to start informing yourself. http://www.newyorker.com/arts/critics/books/2010/…
        Quality information can be obtained by interviewing suspects in the style of the FBI.

        • Cats

          I'm not in favor of anyone torturing anyone.

          However, I don't think we as Canadians have a moral obligation to tell other people how to behave other than in the general sense expressing concern when we hear about torture cases.

          We are certainly not responsible in any way for torture committed by others.

          And I think if someone hands us information derived from torture and its in our interest to use it then OF COURSE we should use it.

          I'm not going to let some innocent Canadians die to prove some abstract moral point. And proving a point doesn't UNDO the torture that's already happened.

          Maintaining maximum operational flexibility to preserve our freedoms and safety is essential.

          Cats?!

          • Aaron

            There is the moral issue: whether it is right or wrong ethically to torture (i.e. beatings, waterboarding, electric shocks, humiliation)

            And there is the more earthly issue of expediency: whether the information is useful.

            It is the latter that I am disputing. Innocent Canadian lives depend not on "an abstract moral point" but rather on a mundane issue of fact. It is by blurring this distinction that the right wing propagandists have attempted to give cover to torture.

            I am glad to hear that you are opposed to torture and I look forward to you joining me in condemning the Canadian government if it has been involved in torture. It will be hard to know whether our government is involved if we cease looking at the topic with a critical eye. I assume that if our government is involved in torture you would like to be aware of it.

            It will be difficult to know if we are participating in torture if we cease to

          • Cats

            Again, I don't buy that.

            If we are in a foreign country, like Afghanistan, on a joint patrol with Afghan army and we hand over prisoners to them and then they get tortured we are NOT INVOLVED.

            They are a sovereign nation. What they do with their laws and their criminal justice system has no moral bearing on our actions.

            Frankly, I think its imperialistic, world police, American style, NEOCON nonsense that you are spouting !

            Typical right wing blather.

            Its not our job to go around imposing Canadian style morality on other countries. The fact that they do lousy things doesn't make us involved in torture. Nor are we morally responsible for it.

            Mice day!

          • madeyoulook

            We signed a major international convention that makes us responsible for knowingly transferring detainees to probable torture. So you should probably back up a bit.

          • Cats

            If we are operating in a foreign country on the invitation of a sovereign nation then we never posses any prisoners to begin with !

            Withholding Afghan citizens captured in Afghanistan from the Afghan government is outrageous.

            Its totally disrespectful to Afghan sovereignty. It reeks of neo-colonialism, white man knows best.

            Typical right wing NEOCON blather !

            Cats!

          • Aaron

            If the Canadian government is involved in torture, you will condemn it?

    • madeyoulook

      Your fantasy about right wing fantasy is rather harmless, but stupid.

      • Aaron

        You have heard of the Guantanamo prison, right?

        Cheney openly militating for torture…
        Abu Ghraib…

        Any of this sound familiar to you?

        Did you check the link that I gave?

        • madeyoulook

          You think that is what right-wingers fantasize about? Get help.

  • doug rogers

    “We don’t torture ourselves,”…

    We elected Stephen Harper.

  • ex-canuck

    The above chatter and its lead-off takes me back to my days in the pub as a sophomore when we all posed as lawyers and moralists, opinionated just like all sophomores who are just getting exposed to some of the ideas that shaped the modern world. But then we grew up. This is my morality tale.

  • madeyoulook

    Actually, I am not all that troubled if our spy service keeps everyone guessing about what they're up to. They are, after all, our spies.

    We don't torture ourselves, we don't like to use info derived from torture, we will "discount" (even Van Loan didn't say "rejected" in your quote) the info as less likely to be credible if that's how it was obtained, and we know a judge and a jury would never consider the info.

    BUT: if the info goes along with other stuff we're hearing, or if it represents a significant threat that needs further investigating, we would be failing our fellow citizens to just cover our eyes and ears.

    I am perfectly comfortable with your "Today" quote snippet.

  • Cats

    Exactly.

    Cloud of war and all that.
    Smokescreens are necessary in the cloak and dagger world.

    It must annoy the heck out of reporters trying to nail down the truth.

    (Or Aaron Wherry, who unlike the above mentioned reporters, tries to expose very small inconsistencies in people's position and blow them up into massive rifts that supposedly signify policy incoherence and valid reasons not to support anyone to the right of rabid communism.)

    BTW did I just call out Wherry above ? Does that not perfectly encapsulate what this is all about ? This business of blogging ?

    Dance cats, Dance! Faster birds, faster mice, better fish!

  • Mike T.

    You have a bad habit of being unwilling to examine military operations and procedure.

    Obviously, specific details about ongoing conflicts should be kept secret.

    POLICY should be clear. Crystal clear.

  • Aaron

    It is difficult to share your unquestioning faith in the state. You seem to have a simpler relationship to authority than I do.

  • Patchouli
  • Cats

    Take off the tin hat.

    I don't have unquestioning faith in the state. I refuse to support the long form census. DO YOU ?

    We're talking about using information from foreign sources. As long as Canadians aren't torturing Canadians then there is no issue.

    Cats!

  • Aaron

    Torture is a problem regardless of who is involved. The language of pain should cut right across cultural and national boundaries.

    It is an important issue for me. And I am very concerned that my government might be participating in an international game that encourages torture.

    The long form census is a red herring.

  • Cats

    Red herring ?

    Far more people have felt imposed upon by census takers than have been tortured.

    Cats!

  • madeyoulook

    Bad HABIT? I plead not guilty. Let the evidence phase begin.

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