Beyond The Commons

gottabesaid

Reminds me of something my mom used to say: "Well, if Stephen Harper though it would be a good idea to jump off a bridge, you'd think it'd be a good idea too!!" Or something like that.
Patchouli

Here's hoping the next conservative caucus meeting is near a cliff where the lemmings can show their glorious leader their commitment to him.
wellwell

You might as well take a garbage can and write "cabinet minister" on it. Jesus H. Christ.

Green Arrow

except the garbage can would be competent
Twisted_Mentat

At least the Garbage Can would be great on those open-&-shut issues.

wellwell

But you'd have to expect a certain amount of trash talking.

tedbetts

In other words… truly excellent cabinet material.

Dave

What about an onion ring?

Stewart_Smith

Astute readers will not that clever Vic did not mention the leader by name. Through a detailed process, all of the possible reasons for this is exclusion have been analyzed leaving the top 3.

1. Harper is not Satan! (but he is Lord Vordemort)
2. Vic is switching to the NDP and wants to know what Jack thinks.
3. As predicted by SS, Max has assumed operational control over the Conservative Caucus and as usual Vic is a little slow on the uptake.
LynnTO

In the immortal words of my senior year English teacher: "repetition of subject nouns within the same sentence is an early indicator of a softening mind."
E_B_

Garth Turner was lambasted in the media and the blogosphere for standing up to Mr. Harper, but I really, really miss him.

If only there was more than one opinion in the Conservative caucus…

peter

Paul Martin was lionized by the media (but only until the media realized he was an empty suit after ten years) as he slunk around back stabbing his leader…how'd that work out? Feschuk may know more than most!
John W.

Well there are still some moderate (sort of) former PC's chained and duct taped in there somewhere.

john g

That particular quote was just inserted at the end of the article, completely out of context of anything.

Observers say the Harper government is eyeing its role in the project only because it needs more votes in Quebec to form a majority government.

Prime Minister Stephen Harper has said if his government sends money to Quebec City, it will do the same for other cities.

But to date, Ottawa has been loath to spend money on professional sports teams.

"Whatever the leader said, I stand behind what the leader said," Toews said.

What is he even referring to here? There is nothing in the leadup to even suggest what question he was asked. Knowing our media, and in particular the WFP, that means it was probably not even related to the discussion and just thrown in out of context as a random smear.

It's not like the WFP hasn't been caught at this sort of thing before when dealing with Toews, so given this history I have zero faith in the integrity of this article given the random placement of that quote. But hey, everyone keep reminding us how Fox News North is the biased one.

E_B_

Whatever the context was, if the quote is accurate, it was an incredibly dumb thing to say. It suggests that Mr. Toews is incapable of forming and stating his own opinion.

Re: the Conservatives mounting an ad campaign going after NDP and Liberal MPs who are contemplating switching their support of the gun registry bill: Is it too difficult to imagine that their are some Conservative MPs somewhere in the country who, in their heart of hearts, are against this bill?

How about some targeted ads in Conservative ridings along the line of "Your chief of police has stated that the Gun Registry is an important tool in our region used to fight crime. Does your MP have an opinion, or has he been told what to think?

It is a shame that in a country that has democratic ideals, that the MPs we the voters send to Ottawa, are essentially gutless and powerless. They really don't get the opportunity to represent their constituents. Instead, they kowtow to the party leadership.

bennji

But don't you see……it is all the fault of the biased left-wing MSM.

Our party can do no wrong, our Leader is perfect…….why are we always persecuted!

http://onelinecritic.wordpress.com/ DirtyOldTown

That's biased left-wing lame stream media, to you sir.

Jenn_

I sent my Conservative MP an email with my thoughts on this issue, as I am wont to do on various issues from time to time, but have yet to have the courtesy of even the generic form letter email reply from his staff that I usually get.

no more non-partisan

When the WFP asks a question like this it's not for the edification of the public or to enhance public discourse – it's to create sound bites that will injure Tories."Bernier slams Harper policy" Harper hasn't stated a policy but we have Bernier "slamming" it. Let's see what we can make Toews say that will slam something- see he said "might"- that's not what Harper said. Wherry cheer-leading this stuff just makes him another useful idiot in search of views for his blog..
MostlyCivil

That thumping noise you hear? That's the Minister's communications staffers banging skulls on hard objects…

John W.

It's Dimitri on the line sir.

tedbetts

He wants to congratulate you and welcome you to the Inner Party.

No more Victory Gin, Victory Coffee and Victory Cigarettes for you!

Standing By

I think any prudent minister would want to add a few additional words, as in : … unless the leader changes what he said, in which case, I stand behind what the leader now says, not what might have been said earlier.
peter

I wonder how the anti-gun registry Liberals will vote when whipped by their leader"? I guess what they think their constituents want is trumped by their leader's political agenda? But of course Mr. Wherry agrees with Iggy on that issue so clearly it is OK…such a clever bunch of chatty monkeys you all are in your post-modern smugness. Self reflection doesn't mean admiring what you see in the mirror.

Margaret

So perhaps you can tell us how many times Harper does not whip his party to vote with him?? Oh right – he doesn't have to whip them any more, because they're scares sh*itless of him, and of losing their jobs. They took the Oath of Allegiance To Harper a long time ago.

Blue

Which CPC MP`s have you heard who are in favour of keeping the long gun registry ?

I know the Liberals and NDP MP`s were split on the issue, however I thought all the Conservative MP`s were of the belief that the long gun registry was useless.

tedbetts

And every single urban riding held by a Conservative is full of constituents who oppose the gun registry, eh? Despite the polls, these cities are just exceptions?

Blue

Obviously I have more confidence in the common sense of the urban constitutents that you mention than you have. I believe if those constitutents who are in favour of the long gun registry were properly informed about how useless the gun registry is and that public funds could be better used to prevent gun violence then a majority would say to scrap it.
Unfortunately many are as uninformed now about how best to prevent gun violence as they were back in the 90`s when this foolishness started.
It is equally unfortunate that folks like you that may be full of info and common sense are blocked from using both by your partisan leanings.
By the way, I hate that this issue has become a political football on both sides.
tedbetts

So there is a Conservative imposed exception to the rule of "do what your constituents want" which is "unless your political betters think differently". Gotcha.

As for properly informed, regardless of what you think about the registry, it has only been the anti-registry side that has been bombarding Canadians with "information" about it for the last 15 years, with lots of deliberate misinformation about what police want and how effective they think it is. And clearly, without a doubt, it is an efficient and useful and helpful program. You can argue it is isn't a huge help to cops, but clearly it is some help and at pretty low cost.

Now that the pro-safety/pro-registry supporters are finally fighting back, it is astonishing how quickly the polls have flipped right over with nearly 50% in favour of keeping it (compared to 35% last year) and 38% opposed to it (compared to 45% last year).

Also interesting how supporters are huge in cities and Quebec and yet not one single urban Conservative or Quebec Conservative supports the gun registry. No, there's no whipping going on. They are all just representing what their constituents want (with the CPC exception rule.
tedbetts

You hate that this as political football? I agree the implementation was certainly (but far from only) about political football. But your leader enjoys kicking the ball around more than anyone for huge fundraising dollars and political gain. They’re blasting ads at vulnerable ridings – the reverse is not the case – and even, in the case of Stoffer for eg, outright lying.

Is the gun registry the major political issue of our times? Like health care or going to war in Iraq or sponsorship? No, of course not. Not nearly. But as some pundits have noticed, it’s a touchpoint (Geddes, Coyne here on Maclean's for example) for an ideological divide. Which is, frankly, why I thought Iggy's approach (finally) in the spring was so reasonable and typically Liberal: a compromise that removes the worst part of the registry. But Harpo has slammed the door on any kind of compromise or consideration of the wishes of Canadians. Our political betters know what's best for us after all. He makes the rules, after all.

What seems to be swaying Canadians now is that the facts are coming out despite efforts by the Conservatives to hide them. And, deliciously ironic, the CPC hardball tactics of misinformation are backfiring and more and more NDP are changing sides.
Blue

I have no interest in arguing about who is going to vote wherever on Bill c-391. that`s part of the political bull$hit that`s poisoning the issue.
So the Conservatives use it to appeal to their base support and the Liberals knew from the beginning that it was a winner for them with urban voters especially women. But I still say that 90 plus % of these women do not know what is the difference between a long gun registry and a licensed firearm, and the test one needs to go through to buy any firearm, and how easy it is to buy an unlicensed and unregistered gun on the street, and why any Police Chief would be hesitant to give up any source of info on the public even though it has not been shown to have saved one life yet.
tedbetts

So the reason women don't support the gun registry is because they are ignorant.

Classic!

And some people actually wonder why Conservatives turn women off so much.
Blue

Well that flippant bit of Lib-Lie from you is typical of the Liberal Party attitude toward the public that I outlined in my blurb just below.
Everything about the LPC seems to be —-how can we exploit an issue to make those Tories look bad.
Too bad you and your Party`s lack of principle will probably keep you guys in the mid 20% support for the next few years.
tedbetts

I think you need to re-read your own post and look in the mirror when it comes to attitude.

The reason women support the gun registry is because they don't understand guns, they can't tell the difference between registering a gun and getting a license, etc. That kind of insulting arrogant paternalism is why Conservatives are not trusted by women. They are not waiting for you to take care of them Blue. And women are heck of a lot more intelligent than us guys, I can tell you that.

As for support levels, I don't know who you're talking about when you talk about mid-20s. Those days are long gone. Even with a fraction of the war machine funds the Conservatives have, even with years of ridicule of the Libs by the media, even with a pretty unknown leader, even with Harper using the stimulus as his own pork barrel fund, even with the full on help of the media for Steve "The Fifth Beatle" Harpo, even with everything going their way that could possibly go their way… less than a third of Canadians support the CPC. Ouch!!
Blue

Of course city women don`t understand guns—they probably don`t understand tractors and combines either, but neither do I and you`re right, I`m sure in a lot of ways women are much more intelligent than you or me.
So why did the Liberals use the tragedy of Ecole Polytechnique, when a madman went berserk, to set up a long gun registry that has done nothing to prevent future madmen from doing the same ?
And I am not being arrogant or insulting or paternalistic by suggesting that one of the main reasons why there was a 1 billion dollar cost over-run on the initial registry was because the people who were contributing advice to the gov`t at that time knew little or nothing about rifles and shotguns and the folks that own them.
I think the Liberals lacked real leadership and courage at that time, and I think they still do. Fortunately we now have a PM that has both qualities and people see that.
Blue

If this may not be the issue of our times, it may be one that best defines the philosophy of the Liberal Party. There is a part of that Party that believes that what is good for the Liberal Party is good for tha country.
I`m sure old Chret calculated that the votes he would lose from people who realized from the beginning that this was a stupid plan would be more then made up for by the largely uninformed who foolishly thought a registration of shotguns and rifles would make their campuses and cities safer.
And that`s how leadership is defined in the Liberal Party. It`s all about the votes. Cost and common sense have no place in determining good legislation.
That`s why it`s become a political football, however the Conservatives will probably win this match even though they will lose the vote on Bill C-391.
tedbetts

"There is a part of that Party that believes that what is good for the Liberal Party is good for tha country. "

Isn't that what we're talking about here when we talk about voting as your constituents want? And yet it is the Conservatives who are trying to impose their views on their constituents more than the Liberals. The Liberals have come up with a compromise that reflects the general concerns of Canadians and certainly Liberal constituents.

By contrast, while polls show cities and Quebecers are strongly in favour of keeping the registry, every single urban Conservative MP and every single Quebec Conservative MP opposes. Same with the census and maternal health and hockey rinks and fake lakes and that Fiscal Update and calling elections on a whim etc. Clearly the governing philosophy of the current batch of Conservatives is they are our political betters and think what is good for them is is good for the country.

Harper is the master at throwing out principle for partisan gain and votes. He is Mulroney and Chretien merged and reincarnated with a mix of hardcore ideology they never had.
peter

Hey, I'm still looking for "soldiers, on the streets, with guns"…don't see them. Urban denizens attitudes about firearms is akin to rural citizens concerns about traffic jams…know they don't like them,but have no practical experience with them. If you were to drill into the anti-gun attitude you might find it to be a "manufactured" emotion. Urban experience with illegal handguns and gangs (who simply do not register their illegal weapons) is far diffrent than a rancher in rural BC who shoots predators who eat his livelihood and needs his weapons, and winds up a felon because he neglected to fill out a form. As for the cops, any cop who trusts a deeply flawed database over his instincts and training probably should find an new line of work.
tedbetts

"Hey, I'm still looking for "soldiers, on the streets, with guns"…don't see them."

Um, where were you in June??? Kidding aside, nice attempt at bait and switch.

You criticized Liberals and NDP for not representing their constituents. The Conservatives are pumping ads out along the same lines.

But my question was whether you think Conservatives in cities (and Conservatives in Quebec for that matter) are representing their constituencies? Obviously, they aren't so they are either being whipped or they are imposing their ideological views (or, worse, the ideological views of the PM that they don't even fully share) on their constituents.

Simple question. No need to demonstrate smugness and say anyone who doesn't oppose the gun registry doesn't know what they are talking about. That's the kind of "political betters" elitism that got the Liberals canned. "If I want your opinion, I'll tell you what it is."

peter

Nice try at dissembling Blue and Maragret, however i notice you failed to address the issue. How is a cabinet minister supporting a cabinet position on a trial balloon in the press, with no bills pending and no spending on such issues budgeted, more onerous or undemocratic than the actions of the Liberls on a real bill with a real vote in a week? BTW every MP but independents MUST have their nomination papers signed by the party leader. Lest you think the Dippers are without sin here google Bev Desjarlais (sp) (NDP Churchill Man.)…she chose her faith over the party line and it cost her her job as an MP…btw she wound up working as an EA for a CPC MP.

tedbetts

So you think every single urban riding held by a Conservative is full of constituents who oppose the gun registry, do you? Right.

And of course the "what the constituents want" rule doesn't apply to Harpo himself who was for the gun registry before he was against it. I guess what he thought his constituents want was trumped by his leader's political agenda. But of course Peter agrees with Harper's flip flop on the original vote so clearly it is OK… such a clever chatty monkey you are in your "our principles don't apply to us" smugness. Slef reflection doesn't mean admiring what you see in the mirror.

peter

Imitation is the sincerest form of flattery there sport…plus, even though I don't bother with them myself I love getting thumbs down from this crew, emily and tj must be sleeping. As for the urban ridings held by the CPC, few are outright majorities, Mostly they are splits and very reassuringly most are noticing a trend to new members signing up because they feel they finaly have agovernment that is listening to them about things that actually matter, rather than endless BS about crap that doesn't matter, courtesy of the egghead crew.

tedbetts

You are running away from the question again.

It's simple: are Conservative MPs in cities and in Quebec representing the views of their constituents on this issue or not?

Clearly, they are not. Other than cities in the west, city dwellers and Quebecers in particular are overwhelmingly in favour of keeping the gun registry. And yet not one single Conservative supports it.

So obviously the "principle" you claim to have about MPs representing their constituents only applies when it advances your own views and does not apply when it disagrees with you.

Margaret

In other words

"Whatever it was that Harper said, I agree with him, no matter what it was, because I am a professional toady and sycophant, aiming for the illustrious job of Professional Lickspittle to the Prime Minister."
LiveBloggin Junkie

OMG, stop the presses!! A Cabinet Minister showed solidarity with another member of cabinet. Next thing you know it might even become a convention. http://www.parl.gc.ca/information/about/process/h…

Then agian, it is disappointting that the Public Safety Minister from Manitobia didn't have more to say about infrastructure funding in Quebec

bennji1977

So, has a cabinet decision been made that has resulted in this solidarity?
tedbetts

It's not just solidarity, it's pre-solidarity. Which is what makes it stupid and mindless.

Then again, it is disappointing that a senior minister in the federal cabinet didn't have more to say about spending hundreds of millions of federal tax dollars raised from tax payers across the country by the federal government on single private interests that may benefit one city in one province.

madeyoulook

John G's skepticism over context may be well-founded or not; it is certainly reasonable to request the context. But it is still an unfortunate phrase for a cabinet minister to permit unbiased or scurrilous journalists to excerpt in this fashion. Alternate suggestion: Major Cabinet decisions get fleshed out in Cabinet, and you will then have a clearer picture of where we stand as a government. That's not so hard for a minister to learn. It still won't some jerks from harrumphing something about a mind of his own or something, but it would look better to most reasonable people.

LdKitchenersOwn

That's not so hard for a minister to learn.

You sure you want to stick with that? That seems like a pretty dubious point to me, in the context of recent evidence.

madeyoulook

It shouldn't be too hard for a minister to learn…
Happy?

PS: apologies for missing word above: It still won't keep some jerks from harrumphing…

http://onelinecritic.wordpress.com/ DirtyOldTown

Or he could just stick with, "That would be an ecumenical matter."
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2TQuacxEjAU

John W.

Does Harper bear any resemblance at all to the CEO of Lehman Brothers we saw on the first episode of the CBC documentary 'Meltdown'?
Dee

Uh, oh. Toews is in trouble. He didn't refer to Harper as "Dear Leader".
http://intensedebate.com/people/Ottawa_Centrist Ottawa_Centrist

"Whatever the leader said, I stand behind what the leader said" sounds like an unsigned QMI Agency/SunTV News editorial in the making.