Beyond The Commons

Beyond The Commons

Aaron Wherry covers all the goings-on in and around Parliament Hill. Follow Aaron on Twitter: @aaronwherry

The Commons: A matter of principle

by Aaron Wherry on Monday, October 18, 2010 5:52pm - 0 Comments

The Scene. “My question is for the government,” Bob Rae said. The Speaker having just called a start to Question Period, that seemed appropriate. And this being the Liberal foreign affairs critic’s first chance in quite awhile to publicly question the Conservative side—the Liberals lately preferring to focus on more domestic, which is to say “real,” matters—he seemed eager to get full measure for his minute and a half.

Specifically, Mr. Rae wanted the government side to account for its failure to secure a seat on the United Nations Security Council. Notably, the government side was more than eager to accept all blame.

“Our government is very, very proud of the principled foreign policy positions that we have taken over the past five years,” government House leader John Baird enthused to applause from the Conservatives around him. “Our government makes foreign policy decisions based on what is right and not what is popular, and we have nothing to be apologetic about.”

This is the line, as they say. Indeed, after a couple days of trying to explain that it, like everything up to and including the state of primetime television, was all somehow Michael Ignatieff’s fault and despite an odd aside from the Prime Minister about “secret votes,” the government has settled on explaining the failure to secure a seat as so—the direct result of its own unwavering righteousness.

At least that would be one way of looking at. Another way would be to simply shout “Yay Canada!” and not think too much about it—that principles would only be worth invoking if for the purposes of implying that our rivals for that seat, the vast majority of the UN’s membership, and every previous government that successfully gained a spot at the Security Council table are and were somehow lacking by comparison.

That the government would so enthusiastically question the fortitude of so many may seem shocking. Then again, that the government often does not intend its official statements to be taken seriously is a caveat worth keeping in mind at all times.

Nonetheless, Mr. Rae chose to engage the government on its own terms, turning to face Mr. Baird, raising his voice and shaking his fist in the House leader’s direction. “A significant refusal on the part of the government to even talk to the government of China over many years, a decision to exclude a number of African countries from being recipients of aid and now freezing our entire CIDA budget into the indefinite future, a complete abnegation of responsibility with respect to climate change,” he said, rhyming off his own account of the government’s principles and simultaneously expanding the vocabulary of everyone within earshot. “When will the government take responsibility for a major diplomatic failure on the part of Canada?”

“We have nothing to apologize for,” Mr. Baird responded. “Again, we make foreign policy on this side of the House based on what is right and not what is popular.”

Here the implication seemed explicit. And so here Mr. Rae made a great show of losing his temper, castigating the members opposite quite loudly. ”Mr. Speaker, since when was incompetence a matter of principle?” he snapped quite succinctly.

“There is no finer example than what the government has allowed to happen with the government of the United Arab Emirates,” he continued in his round-the-world review. “How could we have sunk so low in our diplomatic capacity that it would have allowed these negotiations to go completely off the rail, threatening our entire operation in Afghanistan? That is what we are faced with. It is incompetence. It has nothing to do with principle.”

If Mr. Rae could not find the principle at play in this diplomatic dispute over direct flights to Dubai, Mr. Baird stood ready to assist.

“The government always chooses arrangements that are in the best interest of Canada and provide value to our men and women in uniform,” he proclaimed. “This government has shown an unprecedented commitment to our men and women in uniform and I can say to my friend from Toronto Centre thank goodness the dark decade, the 10 lost years of the previous Liberal government is over, thanks to the leadership of this minister.”

There was an exasperated “ahh” from the Liberal side.

A few moments later, the Defence Minister stood on unrelated matter to suggest that the current government was doing right by our men and women in uniform precisely because the previous Liberal government had done right in initiating the purchase of several billion dollars worth of new fighter jets. And then, as if to laugh in the face of irony, Mr. MacKay was compelled to proudly declare that, “We will not play politics on the backs of the military.”

If the principle thus conveyed seemed inherently contradicted, no matter. As always, it is best not to think too seriously about such statements.

The Stats. Foreign affairs, nine questions. Ethics, seven questions. The economy, five questions. The military, four questions. Omar Khadr, health care, religion, the Quebec City arena, immigration and infrastructure, two questions each. Securities regulation, agriculture, trade and equality, one question each.

John Baird, seven answers. Peter Kent, six answers. Christian Paradis, five answers. Jim Flaherty, Peter MacKay and Rona Ambrose, four answers each. Rob Nicholson, Tony Clement and Jason Kenney, two answers each. Leona Aglukkaq, Gary Goodyear, Dave Anderson, Peter Van Loan and Lynne Yelich, one answer each.

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  • Emily

    Harper managed to piss off the world….and now he claims to be proud of it

    The Con Culture of Stupidity is alive and well.

    • Wes

      He pissed off the Arab world, and if he did that, because of a pro israel stance.Thats okay by me.As for Rae, he has no room no speak given his past running Ontario! running it into the ground, that is.The Libbie's need to do their homework,United Arab Emirates, are ticked because Air canada, our Air canada would not give up routes. Once again, if the Arab world doesnt like something- they act out like spoiled children.

      • Emily

        He pissed off a lot more than the 'Arab world', and Canada will suffer the consequences.

        Interesting….Cons now favour protectionism.

        • Wes

          How will we suffer, do tell.This is the left crap that I cannot abide, sipping from the kool aid,and saying the same mantra over again That wont make it come true, anymore than Iggy will ever be PM*snort*

          • Emily

            We won't be on the decision making body over Afghanistan, what comes after, climate change, Congo and so on.

            If you'd spend more time thinking than fantasizing about mysterious 'lefties' you might get somewhere

          • hollinm

            Message to Emily….we are leaving Afghanistan next year. Once gone we will have little say on anything that happens over there. We will be responsible for only our own diplomats. You should be happy as Canada will no longer be involved in the war.

            Do you honestly believe that the United Nations is going to dictate climate change or energy policy to any country in the world?

            There will be no war for Canada in the Congo. Get that out of your head. If you think Afghanistan is a quagmire then look at the Congo.

          • Emily

            Yes, so far we are leaving….depends on Harper's mood next week.

            The UN doesn't dictate anything….it is not autonomous. It is a world body made up of member countries.

            We just won't be one of them with any input now.

          • Holly Stick

            The UN doesn't need to "dictate" climate change. Everyone with a brain can see that climate change is happening as a result of our actions. Time you learned to face reality.

          • ex-canuck

            What actions? You need to get current about climate change.

          • Reverend_Blair

            You mean by paying attention to the actual science instead of spin the denialists put out?

          • Style

            Afghanistan is a NATO mission. Does losing the UN Security Council seat get us out of NATO too?

          • hollinm

            Obviously not. The fact is I was responding to Emily who said we will lose our influence in Afghanistan. I highly doubt it. We had no influence in the first place and the fact we are leaving next year will leave us with even less influence. It has nothing to do with the UN which was the basis for her argument.

          • Style

            I was pointing out another flaw in the suggestion we'd lose infuence over NATO's mission in Afghanistan by not being on the UNSC. I figured I was further ahead replying to you than your interlocutor.

      • CAPS

        "because of a pro israel stance" is the biggest crock around. Harper doesn't have a "pro-Israel" stance per se. He is in favour of the stand taken by the current Israeli government – a government, by the way, formed by the party that came second in the election and scrounged for support from some of the hardest-right and religious parties in the Israeli political spectrum.

        OMG, Harper is in favour of a coalition formed by the losers!

        • Wes

          Yes he does have that stance, he has since he came into politics, once again, try and keep up

      • Reverend_Blair

        Are you saying that Germany and Portugal have an anti-Israel stance?

        • Wes

          No, why, did you.They have taken no stance, chickens !

          • Emily

            We don't have a 'pro-Israel' stance…..we've said we'd consider any attack on Israel as an attack on Canada.

            Israelis were stunned. They hadn't even asked for that.

          • Reverend_Blair

            The implication of saying that Canada lost the seat because of pro-Israel stance is that Germany and Portugal have an anti-Israel stance. That simply isn't true though. Germany has been a strong supporter of Israel since it became a nation. Portugal has favoured a two-state solution along with most of the rest of the planet.

            What they haven't done is allow Israel to break international law and human rights conventions without criticism. I'd suggest that allowing any nation to ignore laws and conventions with impunity does that nation no favours. Harper's stance that Israel can do no wrong is actually harmful to Israel.

      • Bugzy

        I think that you had better go back to the Harris government instead of blaming Rae with Flaherty as the finance minister and some ingenious bookkeeping hiding a deficit of six billion dollarsand inherited by the Rae government.

      • Dan

        Our Air Canada???

        Your Air Canada has been screwing and gauging Canadians for the past 20 years…basically since it was taken over by Americans.

  • Style

    "How many G7 countries do we need to put on the Security Council at once? Let's vote for Portugal."

    Much more likely conversation in foreign capitals.

    • Emily

      No actually, countries had good reason to vote the way they did.

  • Crit_Reasoning

    Interesting that Bob Rae was chosen to lead the charge on the UNSC seat, given his statesmanlike comments leading up to the UN vote that contrasted so sharply with Ignatieff's partisan jab that Canada hadn't "earned" the seat.

    I still think that Rae would have been the better leader.

    • Wes

      No, he wouldnt

    • Anon

      You mean, his "perfectly correct" partisan jab.

    • Emily

      Bob Rae is the foreign affairs critic.

    • kcm

      He didn't say Canada hasn't earned a seat…"this government" was the phrase, wasn't it?

      Agree with you, Rae would have been a better choice, although he comes with a set of his own challenges.

    • Out There

      I still think that Rae would have been the better leader.

      I agree with you, but Rae is absolutely unelectable in Ontario – which is the Liberals' primary battleground.

      Isn't it true that no former provincial premier has ever become Prime Minister?

      • Claudia Lemire

        And in the west too, I guess he is unelectable all over Canada but he would have been a better leader!

  • chet

    Quick question to my Liberal friends:

    Does Israel have a right to exist? And do you support all that such position entails?

    Because many of those in the anti-Canadian voting bloc resent our support for Israel (the litmus test for many countries seeking to declare Israel the world scapegoat – shades of 1937 all over again).

    Second question:

    Do the Liberals support the motivations behind the African and Muslim voting block's refusal to support Canada? If we had an honest media, just slightly lifting the veil behind what motivated those group, would reveal a deep dark morass which almost no Canadians would support.

    • Emily

      chet…this is about us losing a seat at the UN.

      And the US, UK, India and China didn't vote for us.

      So cease trolling.

      • chet

        It was a secret vote.

        "But American officials have said the U.S. did vote for Canada and that Washington never lobbies for countries running in Security Council elections, CTV's Ottawa Bureau Chief Robert Fife reported." (CTV news)

        • Emily

          American officials have simply repeated it was a secret vote.

          Of course they lobby for other countries….always have….just not this time

    • ZestyMordant

      I support Israel's right to exist. I support their right to defend themselves against their attackers when attacked. I'm not sure what else you think that entails.

      I don't support their claimed "right" to build settlements all over the West Bank. I don't support their use of other countries passports (including Canada's) to murder people in other countries. I don't support their use of white phosphorus in populated areas. Opposition to these illegal activities is the best way to support Israel's existence.

      How far does your support of Israel go?

      • chet

        It entails not bringing "human rights violations" against Isreal every time it responds to attackers, who utilize the civilian population for cover, without uniforms.

        Israel has the absolute right to respond, and it is the attackers who intentionally use civilian cover (no uniforms missle sites at or near hospital and school sites) who are guilty of international crimes.

        Yet a quick peek of the form UN condemnations shows that Israel is repeatedly cited for violations. Hamas and Hezbollah? Nope.

        Also for the specific issue of the "right to exist" the current stumbling block is the Palestinian side's refusal to even acknolwge the basic right of Israel to exist as such.

        • Twisted_Mentat

          … The UN can't condemn Hezbollah or Hamas like they can officially condemn Isreal because they're sub-national groups and thus not part of the UN.

          Hezbollah could only conceivably be condemned if they're currently the government of Lebanon; I don't know offhand how many times Lebanon has been condemned after sanctioning (but not endorsing) Hezbollah as a group. Same goes for Hamas, exchanging Palestine for Lebanon.

        • Guest

          Historical fact: The PLO recognized the right of Israel to exist in 1993 when the Oslo Accords were signed. The current stumbling block is over Israel's continuing to flout international law by building in the settlements.

    • Dan

      "shades of 1937 again"…try not to be such a drama queen

      Isreal has more nukes then Pakistan and India put together.

      Isreal is not the country it was a generation or two ago. Now it is a Theocracy just like Iran or any other banana republic.

      Those that call Isreal a democracy have no clue what the concept actually means.

      DC

      PS…tread carefully in your responses…my grandparents were given a one way ticket to Auschwitz.

      • kcm

        Why would you say Israel is not a democracy? I don't unconditionally back Israel…but not a democracy! Surely you exaggerate. The US has often been on the wrong side of progressive history, but you wouldn't dimiss them as not being a democracy. My understanding is that this particular Israeli GOTD isn't terribly popular or representative of all Israelis.

    • Jan

      chet, as usual reveals more ass.

  • BGLong

    I don't know if Kody's mom will let him read this .. naughty words ya know .. but I always find
    contrarian views of received wisdom to be fun…

    http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/politics/the-…

    • noob_goldberg

      I don't have much recollection of Rae's tenure, not being very aware of politics at that time.

      I recall, as a young adult, being very impressed with Mike Harris' "Common Sense Revolution", and how he cleaned up after Rae. And then, when I got older, I realized that any idiot can sell off assets and hack expenses willy-nilly if they don't care about the long-term effects of those decisions. I attribute my appreciation of Harris to be similar to a teenage-boy's love of Ayn Rand: at that point in my life, it was cool to believe in anyone who was an unapologetic a$$hole.

      The enduring lesson I learnt from Harris is that if you're going to light a match in a dry forest it's best to plan your exit before the fire consumes you.

      • Jan

        And now we have the Harrisites torching the country.

    • hosertohoosier

      The premise of the article is a bit rich. Essentially it argues that Rae was brought down by domestic opposition to his government, as if the right thing for people opposing him was to avoid criticism. Harper is wrong when he blames Ignatieff for the results of the UN assembly vote, just as this article is wrong in blaming Rae's critics for his fate.

      The facts of Rae's tenure in office are very clear. Rae made very dumb policy moves – throwing money at make-work programs and raising welfare payments well above the national average during a major recession. The welfare rolls skyrocketed, the deficit grew, and Ontario's experienced far more job losses than either the rest of Canada or the United States. The recession was not Rae's fault, but Ontario's relative performance is.

      Ontario's welfare rolls: http://www.fin.gov.on.ca/en/budget/ontariobudgets…

      Ontario's unemployment, compared: http://www.fin.gov.on.ca/en/budget/ontariobudgets…

      Ontario's deficit: http://www.fin.gov.on.ca/en/budget/ontariobudgets…

  • NorthernPoV

    Quik question: does chet have the right to exist?

    Quik answer: yes, but so does ergot mold. Doesn't mean you want it near you.

    • Anon

      Thanks for raising the tone around here.

      • Emily

        Well compared to chet, he did indeed.

        • Anon

          Chet's a Conbot, but at least he doesn't attack other commenters.

          • NorthernPoV

            sorry if you think I am un-civil,
            perhaps you're right, and I often call for civility in the public sphere while admonishing the Harper thugs behavior,
            when I saw the smarmy little rhetorical trap, I made a nasty, sorry

            The thing is, I think the kind of tactic chet employs: reduce complex questions to binary choices
            really lowers the tone of the debate and feeds into the needs of the anti-democratic forces that seem to be ascendant in this country

          • Emily

            chet attacks other commenters every time he posts.

            Everyone who disagrees with him is a evil leftie….or part of the evil 'progressive left'….and this 'left' of it says the most amazing things…it's a plethora of strawmen in fact

            He does it quite deliberately

  • chet

    Seeking to delve into the motivations of the countries that voted as a block against our country (as opposed to jumping to the quick handy use of their votes as a quick partisan attack),

    draws dehumanizing smears,

    from today's "tolerant progressive left".

    • Emily

      We know why they voted against us….so stop trying to foist your fantasies on the rest of us

    • kcm

      "…from today's "tolerant progressive left".

      Kody! Biff! Chet! You still alive and kicking? I thought Macleans had banned you for life:)

      • Jenn_

        Finally! Someone else has noticed it.

    • noob_goldberg

      Suggesting that a group of countries intentionally and cooperatively voted as a block against Canada belies a pretty childish understanding of how the UN really works.

      • kcm

        http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/opinions/opin…

        Saunders makes it pretty clear that we were never counting on the Islamic block…Harper's excuses look increasingly pathetic, not to say throughly dishonest.

      • Emily

        Each voting country had a reason to vote against Canada….stop making it sound like a conspiracy.

        And you don't know how the UN 'really works'. Not even Harper does apparently

        • noob_goldberg

          I didn't state it was a conspiracy. Quite the opposite, in fact.

          However, I used 'belies' inappropriately. I meant to write 'suggests'.

          Oops.

      • citizen_CA

        "Earlier in the week, an unnamed UAE official declared the country had lobbied against Canada among the sizeable group of Arab nations, tipping the balance in favour of Portugal, which won the coveted seat. With voting by secret ballot, the claim could not be proved."
        http://www.thestar.com/news/world/article/876370-…

  • No NDP

    I love to see them spin. Of course all parties know the truth about the UN, but to identify those factors which were beyond our control, would bring this excise to a quick end-not what these fun loving clows want.

    • Emily

      All the factors were within our control, as indeed they have been for 60 years.

      Harper screwed up.

  • noob_goldberg

    It's impossible to avoid playing politics on the backs of the military, as their sole purpose is to serve as a tool for politicians and their constituents.

  • noob_goldberg

    I thought Mackay was talking about fighters, not the UN.

    "A few moments later, the Defence Minister stood on unrelated matter…"

    • Emily

      But this is about the UN…note the title.

      • noob_goldberg

        I thought it was about Question Period. The title just says "A matter of principle".

        • Emily

          And refers specifically to the govt's latest excuse about the UN

          • noob_goldberg

            But I was referring to Mackay's pronouncement, which had nothing to do with the UN at all. Wherry was the one who drew that clever link, but it doesn't change what Mackay said.

          • Emily

            Then specify you are changing the subject to address another issue.

          • noob_goldberg

            I opened a new comment, not replying to anyone. The comment was as a reply to Wherry's post, which contained Mackay's pronouncement. I don't see how that constitutes 'changing the subject'.

          • Emily

            Since the entire thread was about the UN….of course you were changing the subject.

            Fergawdsake, how hard is it to say….'on another topic here'…..?

          • noob_goldberg

            Maybe you have a different browser than I do. On my browser, each primary post in the thread stands alone, and then has all replies branching off of it.

            I assumed that each primary post under the article was an implicit response to the article's content, unrelated to any other post in the list. If I wanted to make a response to another post I would have responded to that particular post. Therefore, every single new post under the article is a de facto topic change.

          • Emily

            I repeat:

            Fergawdsake, how hard is it to say….'on another topic here'…..?

          • noob_goldberg

            I can safely say we've beaten this topic to death now that we've gotten to the point of repeating ourselves.

            Another time. Have a good night.

          • hollinm

            Now you are not just satisfied in monopolizing the board you are telling people how they should or should not respond. Get over yourself Emily. It is getting mighty tiresome. Get a job.

          • craigola

            Dunno…how hard is it…EVER… to let one little thing go?

        • Style

          The value of the toll road should also depend on the costs of maintaining it. Given that roads need major rehabilitation at fairly wide intervals, that cost in present value terms is higher now than in 1999 but the value of the road is strongly up. Also, the profit is net of financing costs, which are much higher for a private operator than for the province, but the profit is still higher than the return on retiring Ontario's debt. Finally, Ontario will shortly build two new highways with private partners taking on financing and maintenance risk – but the assets will be owned by the province and there will be sharing in any windfall revenue. Ontario could have owned 407, contracted out long-term operations and shared in unanticipated revenue. That would have made sense – especially since the road had been operating for a few years and the downside revenue risk had been disproved. So, it's not a slam dunk that it was a bad policy choice, but it's compelling.

  • Emily

    The reason we can't have a 'real discussion' about anything is because of the partisan nonsense posted here.

    For example:

    'Peacekeeping was an American idea, and hasn't been especially successful in practice.'

    Really? Do the words 'Lester Pearson' and 'Nobel prize' ring a bell at all?

    • hosertohoosier

      The use of unarmed military observers to defuse conflicts long predates the use of the tactic by the UN. Even then, Pearson's credit is limited (he doesn't take credit for it in his memoirs). UN General secretary Dag Hammerskjold proposed the idea of an international force to monitor the Suez. Tommy Burns, a Canadian general, actually did the heavy lifting of creating the UNEF (before 1956). John Foster Dulles and Pearson (and others) collectively produced the specific plan that was applied to the Suez crisis.

      Take a look at Sean Maloney's interesting work on the subject. He does a good job of challenging the myths we get in high school history or Canadian heritage minutes with primary evidence (to be clear he does give credit to a Canadian for peacekeeping, but it is Burns not Pearson). In my view, Dulles is the critical actor because his support was absolutely necessary.

      As to the Nobel prize, you might also ask what conflicting countries Pearson brought "peace" to. They were Israel and Egypt, and 11 years after the Suez crisis they went to war again. Nasser simply asked the peacekeepers to leave (as peacekeepers are required to), and they left. Wow, such a great accomplishment.

  • hosertohoosier

    Also, if Canada lost the vote because of its pro-Israel stance, how would a Liberal government fare any differently. Notwithstanding his conflicted comments in 2006, Ignatieff is pretty pro-Israel. To a 2009 crackdown by Israel he said: "Canada has to support the right of a democratic country to defend itself… Hamas is to blame for organizing and instigating these rocket attacks and then for sheltering among civilian populations." Nor would Bob Rae offer a different line as foreign policy critic. He is also unabashedly pro-Israel (something that was used against him in his leadership race).

    • Emily

      We did not lose the vote over Israel. Pay attention.

  • john g

    “There is no finer example than what the government has allowed to happen with the government of the United Arab Emirates,” he continued in his round-the-world review.

    Ah, yes, the wonderful United Arab Emirates. Where it's OK to beat your wife and children…as long as you don't leave a mark.

    Pity that we didn't bow down to lick their boots as Bob Rae would have us do.

    • Jan

      And where they have allowed us to have a base for 9 years. And where numbers of Canadians go to make money.

      • Orson Bean

        Interesting. Sounds a lot like the Bush Administration's justification for sucking up to Saudi Arabia. Strange bedfellows . . .

  • Philanthropist

    The United Nations is a failed state, Canada should pull out completely.

  • Style

    The toll road was a Rae decision. Selling it for far below its value was Harris' decision. Welfare rolls tends to rise during recessions, and they tend to rise most where the recession is deepest. Rae doesn't seem to think he was trying to spend his way out of the recession – which would have been an absurd policy in a recession engineered by monetary policy- but making targetted investments for future productivity. Harris was able to cut taxes, raise spending and eliminate the deficit because the central bank lowered interest rates. Not exactly the most politically courageous approach to policy…

    • hosertohoosier

      1. Was the toll road sold at below market value? I know that is the popular perception, but I have never seen much in the way of analysis of that fact. The CPP recently bought a 10% stake in the toll road, which gives us a sense of its present market value (around 9.1 billion). It was sold for 4.06 billion in 2010 dollars. Does this mean it was a bad deal? No. The higher present value partly reflects hundreds of millions of dollars spent on improvements, at no expense to the taxpayer. Secondly, the increase in value – when you account for the improvements – is roughly in line with what you would expect based on any reasonable assumptions about return on investment.

      You can also compare to other toll road sales. In 2006 Indiana sold a toll road for 4.12 billion (in 2010 dollars) that stretches across the busy corridor between east Chicago and the Ohio border. And that highway was over twice as long as the 407.

      Colorado leased the Northwest Parkway for 611 million (it is only 13 km long).

      Revenue per mile
      407: 37.6 million
      Indiana toll road: 16.3 million
      Northwest Parkway: 47 million

      And a 4 billion dollar lump sum is not necessarily a short term payoff. If you are paying say, 4% interest on debt, then having 4 billion less debt than you would have saves 160 million dollars a year.

      2. On the stimulus, Rae's cries of innocence are about as convincing as OJ Simpson's. Pre-Rae, Ontario spent 15% of its GDP, or about 43 billion dollars. That number soared to over 51 billion by 1992 (and 19% of GDP). I would say a 19% increase in spending over two years on negative economic growth qualifies as a stimulus. It also puts the attempts to paint minor cuts (eg. Rae days) as real austerity into perspective.

      3. Yes, welfare rolls increase during recessions. However, they also presumably drop once the recession is over. By 1992 the recession was over, yet the number of people on welfare continued to grow until 1995/1996.

      • hosertohoosier

        RE: #1, the CPP also purchased Intoll, which owns 30% of the 407, and 25% of a toll road in Australia for 3.8 billion Canadian. If those two highways are relatively close in value, that would also support the notion that the government got fair market value for the 407 lease.

        • Style

          A road is a depreciating asset, so the fact that it's value doubled in nine years is pretty startling – all the big rehabilitations are still ten or more years away, but obviously more costly in present value than they were at the time of sale. Right now Ontario bonds are paying 50 bps over Canadian bonds but 407 bonds are paying over 100, and were even higher a couple of years ago. Ontario should much prefer to be getting 407 level returns than to have sold the road to retire provincial bonds.

      • Style

        On point 2, yes, a democratic socilaist government did spend more money than its non-socialist predecessors. I don't think that means it was stimulus spending. Your numbers show spending "soaring" by 9% a year during a recession – given that government spending soars in every recession because the demand for social services (e.g. welfare) increases, I'm not sure what this is supposed to indicate. Some spending was for long-term goals, some was a commitment to a more activist government and some was the automatic response of existing social programs. None of that is stimulus.

  • John

    Do not trust Bob Rae.

  • BGLong

    An interesting ( to me ) addendum to the "sale of public assets" conundrum …

    http://www.rollingstone.com/politics/news/17390/2…

  • pivnick

    I am truly in awe at the lack of anything meaningful in the responses of government officials during question period. I am NOT accusing the conservatives of being the only party to do so, but the current administration has proven itself very adept at ignoring or walking around questions that would seem to demand policy consideration. The opposition for there part tow that line of unquestioned opposition no matter what the senario. Question period is in need of some serious reform. The opposition needs to phrase questions that demand some real insight, not backhanded slaps at a governments policy. If the party in power could actually offer some insight we might actually get somewhere.

  • Orson Bean

    "A significant refusal on the part of the government to even talk to the government of China over many years."

    I find that particular charge rather hard to believe, if Rae means that in a pure, literal sense.

  • Anon

    It's hyperbole, sure. But no one can deny that the Cons threw out our solid relationship with China practically the moment they came into office. Of course, they did come crawling back.

  • TJCook

    "If the principle thus conveyed seemed inherently contradicted, no matter."

    Surely this will be John Baird's epitaph.

  • Emily

    Harper even refused to attend the Olympic Games there.

  • Orson Bean

    Yes, well then that's what Rae should have accused Harper of doing or failing to do. Instead, Rae said that the government of Canada had failed to communicate with the government of China over the course of many years. For that statement to be true, it would have to mean one of two things:

    1. the Canadian ambassador to China did not communicate with a single official of the Chinese government over the course of many years; or

    2. Canada has cut off all dimplomatic relations to China.

    Now Emily, are either 1 or 2 above true? If not, Bob Rae was lying his face off.

  • Orson Bean

    "It's hyperbole, sure."

    But I thought that it was only the Evil Harper Conservatives who engage in ridiculous hyperbole for crass partisan political purposes. I mean, that's what Ralph Goodale said, right?

  • Emily

    Ahhh I see that you're going to try the literal gambit again eh?

    Odd, only semi-literate people understand words, without comprehending meaning.

  • Jan

    Well. I do recall Peter MacKay playing hard to get with the Chinese ambassador. Those first few years of the Harper government, our relationship with the Chinese went decidedly south. Thank God they stated listening to Emerson.

  • Anon

    *snort*

    The sad part is you probably think you made some kind of witty retort. It's called "hyperbole", Emily. Pointing out Rae's hyperbole doesn't make Orson "semi-literate".

    You, on the other hand…

  • Emily

    Bob Rae had 90 seconds to speak Anon….do stop playing the useful idiot.

  • Orson Bean

    Hmm. So if Jim Flaherty engages in ridiculous hyperbole for crass partisan political purposes, it's proof that the Harper Conservatives are evil, rottten and incompetent. If Bob Rae engages in ridiculous hyperbole for crass partisan political purposes, it's also proof that the Harper Conservatives are evil, rotten and incompetent.

    Have I correctly summarized your position on this?

  • Emily

    a) it's not ridiculous hyperbole….it's a quick and accurate statement about our relations with China over the past few years.. Something everyone in the country is aware of.

    b) Flaherty gives hour long speeches….not 90 second remarks in the HOC

    c) Nice try, but no cigar.

  • Orson Bean

    So are you saying the Canadian ambassador to China — who is the official representative of the Canadian government — refused to speak to any high-ranking Chinese officials over the course of many years? Have you got an independent source or link (besides Bob Rae) that confirms this shocking fact?

  • Emily

    See, this is what killed the PC party.

    You could never make a decision, or pick a side, you never knew what you believed in, nor could you articulate anything.

    You hemmed and hawed and played silly word games…..and lost the biggest one of all

  • Orson Bean

    Holy non sequitur Batman!

  • Emily

    Well you're the one making silly statements

    NO ONE EVER speaks 'literally', Mr Bean, and you know that.

    We'd all sound like textbooks…with footnotes…in ordinary conversations.

    People speak in a verbal shorthand, that conveys meaning to anyone reasonably familiar with the language.

    Otherwise discussion would come to a standstill….and you'd never make it in the 90 seconds allotted in the HOC.

    However, you've often mentioned the PC party and wondered why it died.

    Now you know.

  • hollinm

    I would agree that the question and answer period is devoid of real questions and real answers.

    Perhaps if the opposition was not trying to make a mini speech or asking three questions when one would do maybe we could get some answers.

    The parties are so interested in getting the sound bite for TV and asking gotcha questions that allow the government to dismiss the question shows the sad state of our system.

  • Jenn_

    Silly, that was hyperbole when Ralph Goodlae said it.

  • Orson Bean

    Emily, I've never wondered why the PC party died. As I recall, the main causes were:

    1. this thing called the Reform Party came along and captured the right-wing vote;

    2. this thing called the Bloc Quebecois came along and captured the Quebec Nationalist vote;

    3. this guy named Brian Mulroney had managed to make himself reviled by most Canadians, mainly because of (a) this thing called the Meech Lake Accord; (b) this other thing called the GST, and (c) a severe economic recession which resulted in a double-digit unemployment rate; and

    4. replacing him with Kim Campbell didn't manage to miraculously make people forget all that, particularly when she and her advisors ran one of the worst federal election campaigns ever.

  • pivnick

    couldn't agree more. They both have a role in this failing system.

  • Emily

    Yes, actually you have

    And neither Reform nor the BQ had anything to do with it.

    It wasn't just political happenstance

    Mulroney got you two back to back majorities….Kim could have gotten you a 3rd…she was the most popular PM in history going in….but no, you dithered and dawdled, and hemmed and hawed, and couldn't make a decision. As usual.

    And you lost your party….permanently

  • Orson Bean

    I didn't realize that I was her Campaign Manager. Jesus, that must have been one massive, drug-and-booze filled bender that I was on in 1993. I totally forgot EVERYTHING . . . I could have sworn that John Tory and Alan Gregg were running the show . . . oh well, if you say so . . .

  • Emily

    And again with the cutsey remarks. Sigh.

    Every campaign has it's problems Mr Bean, and hers was no different than anyone elses

    In fact, she actually told the truth….something Canadians claim they want from their leaders.

    Had every PC in the country supported their leader….there would have been a third PC majority.

    Now you have gruel…if the neo-Cons are in a generous mood.

    Enjoy

  • Orson Bean

    Well, I voted for her.

    So if you want to give grief to former PC members and supporters for not voting for her, I suggest you go find someone who didn't vote for her.

    You're barking up the wrong tree.

  • ex-canuck

    Why do you and your debating partners dwell in the past? Is this a Canadian thing? Move on!

  • Emily

    Oh well, you're off the hook then eh?

    It's only other topics you like to play games with….like asking if someone said something ….'in a pure literal sense'…when no one ever does outside a math exam.

  • Claudia Lemire

    I didn't vote for her, I still think she was one of the biggest mistakes, it was a mess from the start, and that's why it ended the way it did!

  • Orson Bean

    Great. I don't disagree with you. But that's not what Bob Rae said. Bob Rae said they did not even talk to the Chinese government over the course of many years. That's a lie, period.

  • Jan

    Again with the nit picking, Bean. Bottom line, the Harper government completely botched our relationship with China in the early years and are still working to get back what we had under the Liberals.

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