Beyond The Commons

Beyond The Commons

Aaron Wherry covers all the goings-on in and around Parliament Hill. Follow Aaron on Twitter: @aaronwherry

The Commons: Sound economic theory

by Aaron Wherry on Wednesday, October 20, 2010 8:01pm - 0 Comments

The Scene. Michael Ignatieff stood to relate the concerns of another individual he’d recently met—the latest in his 33-million-part series on the lives of average Canadians. “Mr. Speaker, on Monday, at Our Lady of Lourdes High School in Guelph, a young student named Diane asked me a question,” he recalled.

Across the way, various Conservatives groaned. But the Liberal leader would not be troubling anyone on the government side to respond to Diane’s question. In fact, he had already answered for them.

“‘We’re caring for my grandmother at home. If elected, what would you do to help people for caring for the sick and elderly at home?’” Mr. Ignatieff reported this young lady as having wondered. “I replied to Diane, ‘Our answer is the family care plan.’ The Conservatives’ answer is, ‘Use your vacation time.’”

No doubt the Conservatives appreciated that Mr. Ignatieff had saved them the trouble of telling Diane that much themselves.

“The question is this,” Mr. Ignatieff continued, now seemingly speaking for himself. “How can the Prime Minister justify tax breaks for profitable corporations instead of helping families like Diane’s?”

The Prime Minister did not think this was much of a question. “The real question of course is why the leader of the Liberal Party thinks he can pull off, for the fifth time, a promise which his party has broken four previous times to the Canadian public,” Mr. Harper explained for the House’s benefit, “which is of course his home care plan, part of the $75 billion in promises they have made for the next election campaign.”

Mr. Harper did not, alas, table the calculations to support his projection of $75 billion in Liberal promises. No doubt though you can safely trust his accounting, in no small part because the Prime Minister, unlike say his finance minister, is a trained economist.

“They cannot justify it by then turning around and saying they will pay for it all by raising taxes on the Canadian economy during a recession,” the Prime Minister continued. “As economists across the country have said, that is a recipe for disaster.”

And if there’s one thing we’ve learned over the course of these last few years it’s that economists possess a keen awareness of potential calamity.

Lacking the necessary schooling to comprehend all this, the Liberal leader stood and attempted to translate the Prime Minister’s words into simpler terms. “Mr. Speaker, the government is saying it can afford $6 billion in tax cuts for corporations and it cannot help Diane’s family,” Mr. Ignatieff ventured. “That is what it amounts to.”

“Shame!” called out various Liberal voices. “Shame!”

Taking pity on the liberal arts major opposite, the Prime Minister came back with an easier explanation of what the Conservative government has done—”tax reductions across the board”—and a series of declarations of what the Conservative government has not done. “When we make promises to Canadians, we deliver them,” he said. “We do not cut health care. We do not cut education. We do not cut employment insurance and we do not raise taxes like the Liberals did.”

Mr. Ignatieff and Mr. Harper then repeated their remarks en francais and then the floor was ceded to Ralph Goodale. Mr. Goodale, who claims to be not a pirate, nor an alien transformer, nor a vampire, nor a werewolf, carried on quite frightfully all the same, extending his right index finger quite threateningly and speaking in tones that, while not alien or monstrous, were certainly loud. The government’s economic story, he said, was “full of holes.” Further, he alleged, the finance minister was a spreader of “hocus-pocus.”

Finance Minister Jim Flaherty was not presently present, but rather than let a parliamentary secretary dismiss this on the government’s behalf, the Prime Minister stood to honour Mr. Goodale’s aspersion with a denunciation. ”There is not a single credible economic voice in the country,” Mr. Harper reported, “that is backing the advocacy of higher tax rates that the Leader of the Opposition and the Liberal Party are proposing.”

And if there’s another thing we’ve learned over these last few years it’s that whatever the politics, it is sounds economics that must always carry the day.

The Stats. Ethics, eight questions. The economy and the environment, six questions each. Foreign investment and foreign affairs, three questions each. The G20, banking, the census, the Ukraine and CSIS, two questions each. Rights & Democracy, the public sector integrity commissioner, pay equity and infrastructure, one question each.

Stephen Harper and Mark Warawa, six answers each. Tony Clement, Peter Kent and John Baird, five answers each. Vic Toews, four answers. Rona Ambrose and Keith Ashfield, two answers each. Stockwell Day, Chuck Strahl and Ted Menzies, one answer each.

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  • madeyoulook

    We’re caring for my grandmother at home. If elected, what would you do to help people for caring for the sick and elderly at home?

    Poor little Diane. She still clings, in her innocent youth, to the notion that the government can actually do something to be of help. And, further, that it is time for the federal government to have some bold new Action! Plan for sick and elderly people in the home.

    Too bad Ignatieff failed to convince her otherw– oh wait, he seems to believe the same thing himself. Poor little Michael…

    • bennji1977

      Ok, what do you propose as an alternative.

      Canada has an aging population that will continue to grow and put more and more strains on the system.

      How will "we" deal with this problem?

      • madeyoulook

        Health and Social Services = provincial jurisdiction (except, I believe, for native people and military service personnel).

        Recognizing who is actually responsible and staying out of their way would be a darn fine place to start.

        • Emily

          Feds help pay for health care, and the problem has to be dealt with at a national level.

        • Olivier

          But taxes are federal.

          Limited thinking gets you limited results

          • madeyoulook

            Taxes are federal, eh? My, my. Speaking of limited thinking…

            Heads up: provinces collect their own tax revenues, too.

          • Olivier

            Fair enough

            But a tax break can be offered by the federal government and that certainly doesn't go against anything outlined in the constitution. And what do you know? That's exactly what they're talking about: giving a tax break. There's alos some EI service, but we already have compassionate care EI so I'm not clear on what the Dippers are proposing on that front.

        • Mike T.

          Since the Federal government can still spend money how it wishes (unless the thing provided would run directly afoul of a valid provincial law), this is really more a trivial fact than a counterargument.

          • Style

            Unless you worry that designing a federally funded program in a provincial jurisdiction is going to consume years of negotiations ending in compromised half-measures that are off-set by decreased provincial spending in that jurisdiction. Which, if you followed the national daycare fiasco of the Liberals, you might.

          • Mike T.

            Contrary to popular belief, national and provincial governments can work quite well together when they see a need. In the particular case of health care, the benefits outweigh any shortcomings, making the counterarguments theoretical and quaint.

        • Andy

          so you are saying lets pass the buck on to the Provinces and the Taxpayers of provinces. It all boils down to the little guy , The taxpayer no matter how many times you pass the buck on down the line.

          • madeyoulook

            I am saying pass the responsibility for management on to the people who are responsible for management.

          • Emily

            First you need money.

            Who runs it is irrelevant.

          • Jan

            Having a national programme doesn't mean the feds are runnning it.

          • burlivespipe

            In other words, "save up those holidays!"… sounds like you're ready to join the Harper koolaid krew…

  • albertaclipper

    To Ignatieff, via Donolo from Chretien.

  • Mike T.

    Interestingly enough, if the Prime Minister had kept his promise to get all the softwood lumber money instead of a small fraction of it , the unpaid principal alone would amount to more than the first year of the Liberal EI homecome plan. The interest Harper decided to forego would have lasted several more.

    • http://secondthots.blogspot.com Dennis_F

      Or it would still be in the courts, after spending even more countless millions on lawyers. But if you think the softwood lumber deal is a relevant political attack these days, by all means.

      • Mike T.

        If we'd caved like harper and given Bush that sweetheart deal we could have finished it years before.

        • http://secondthots.blogspot.com Dennis_F

          By "we" you mean you Liberals? A partisan attack years after the fact is what you consider constructive criticism, is it?

          • Mike T.

            yawn.

  • Louise Fribance

    Does Ignatieff think Canadians are that stupid to not realize that Diane doesn't really exist and the question is rhetorical? Or if she does exist, that she was well rehearsed in advance to ask the one in a million questions the Liberals wanted her to ask? Again Ignatieff shows total disrespect for the intelligence of the average Canadian.

    • Emily

      He's doing a series of Open Mike shows.

    • Mike T.

      I have no doubt they are only repeating questions to get across certain points. On the other hand, they probably didn't have to go too far to find a "Diane".

      • Emily

        No, we have thousands of people trying to care for the elderly at home.

    • JamesP

      You can actually see the question being asked as part of a town hall style meeting on the Guelph Mercury website.
      http://news.guelphmercury.com/videogallery/706237 the question is at 0:58.

      Whether it was a planted question who knows. It's nice to see young people asking serious questions about our country and politics without the cynicism we so often fall prey to.

    • burlivespipe

      Well, at least they attach a name to a person when it relates to a rationale behind government action. Not like creating 'thousands' of email complaints a day to toss a census, replace it with something more expensive and less useful, and then admit that it may have just been One! complaintant – ie Harper..

    • healthcare insider

      We should ask Diane a few questions of our own. They might include: How much money does grandma have? Grandma might be a poor senior citizen and may be getting $1,200.00 in income monthly from different govt sources. She might also qualify for quite a bit of home care (ie: nursing care several times a week to help her bathe, etc.). On the other hand, grandma might be one of the rich senior citizens who actually has to pay back her old age pension at the end of the year because she makes too much money from investments. In that case, she can afford to pay Diane to care for her and to hire help. I myself met "Joan" who had four children. Her husband worked in the oil patch. She gave birth to child #4 and wanted to know what the govt. provided in the way of homecare to help her with the new baby. She was shocked to learn that the govt did not provide anything and was aghast at the thought that she and her husband who earned six figures might have to hire someone themselves.

  • albertaclipper

    Here's someone Michael didn't tell us about.

    Michael Ignatieff took yet another day off of work on Monday and went to Guelph Ontario where spoke to students at Our Lady of Lourdes Catholic High School, and proceeded to flat out lie to them. Yes, lie!

    Question: "Why did you walk out on the vote regarding American war resisters being granted permanent refugee status in Canada?"

    Ignatieff's Answer: "I don't vote on private members bills. It's a technical detail, it's not a matter of me walking out, I just don't take positions."

    The truth: Ignatieff lied; he has voted on private members bills ( During the 40th Parliament’s 3rd session Michael Ignatieff voted 6 times on Private Member’s Bills and 3 times in the 2nd session) and in fact on Candice Hoeppner's private members bill on the gun registry, not only did he vote on it himself but he also forced all Liberal MP's to take HIS position on the issue by whipping the vote (Perhaps the only time in history where a LPC leader did so on a private members bill)

    Here is a list of the private members bills that Ignatieff has voted on while leader of the LPC: 40th Parliament, 3rd Session: C-391, C-471, C-309, C-310, C-311 40th Parliament, 2nd Session: C-291, C-308, C-391

    • Emily

      Stop trying to change the channel. Nobody's buying.

      • chet

        By "nobody's buying",

        you mean the partisan liberals here are refusing to admit basic facts because those facts make your preferred leader look dispicable?

        Because that's what it appears to mean.

    • Mike T.

      He should probably have come up with a better answer.

      The cons should have had the decency to not call the gun registry thing a private bill.

      Now that's settled – back to the argument.

      • bennji1977

        Can anyone recall the last time you have seen Harper take a question directly from a "citizen"?

        • albertaclipper

          Yeah. When he did the BBQ circuit 2 years before Iggy. There were no lies told then either

          @Emily: No channel changing. Just showing Iggy to be the confused individual that he is.

          @Mike T: Decency is a word in the dictionary as far as the Liberals are concerned; If you check, Harper's picture is beside the word.

          • Emily

            Any minute now you'll drag out Trudeau again.

            Please serve kool-aid somewhere else.

          • f4hq

            You're unbelievable! So only you can spew hyper-partisan BS here right?

          • Mike T.

            Where's the icebreaker? Why was Emerson offered a cabinet post within minutes of the election results? Why did he lie about his position on income trusts? On the recession? Why won't he provide parliamentary committees with documents necessary to investigate the possible cover-up of prisoner torture, and why did he use improper procedural machinations to pro-rogue parliament.

            I could go on.

          • albertaclipper

            I guess if you want to categorize all the Liberal and Dippers in parliament as children, i can go with that. Why was Belinda Stronach offered a cabinet position to cross the floor to save the Liberals? All your other points are irrelevant. Flaherty was income trusts but what he didn't do was call all his buddies like Ralph Goodale so they could make a killing on income trusts, there is a committee pouring over documents now on the handling of Taliban soldiers of war and there was nothing improper about proroguing of parliament as it has been a procedure that the Liberals have used at every convenient turn….for them. Your bull is being gored and it isn't pleasant, is it?

            I could go on, Adscam, Shawinigate, Gagliano, Sgro, and on and on and on……………………….

          • Keith in Brampton

            The issue is not what the Liberals did in the past; it is what the Harperites have been doing (or not doing) since taking power. They are the sitting government; it is the role of the opposition to (a) take them to task for their failures and (b) present an alternative path that they would follow if elected.

            The Harperites came to power with a promise to do things differently; to kill the pork-barrelling; to lead an open and transparent government. To use your own word – to lead a return to decency. They have failed miserably on all acounts.

          • Mike T.

            And the guy above your praised Harper for being a stalwart example of "decency" in direct contrast to Iggy. Sheesh, these guys got nuthin.

          • Style

            What the Liberals did in the past was promise ambitious social programs and then break those promises when in power. For me, I think that's relevant to evaluating their current promise.

          • Mike T.

            But not relevant to how important it is that Ignatieff's answer about not voting on a certain bill may not wtihstand scrutiny, and whether Harper is comparatively a man of impeccable character.

            Absolutely the liberals were slow to deliver on certain programs and certain ones never emerged over the life of the Chretien/martin years, and opted instead for a more conservative, tax-cutting approach.

          • Thwim

            To be more accurate, what they did was not follow through on their promises.

            What Harper has done is to actively do the opposite of what he promises.

          • burlivespipe

            So I suppose the question had nothing to do with income trusts, tax increases, accountability, the senate, the Cadman affair, the wages of his psychic hairdresser, or if his singing of the beatles song was live or memorex?

          • albertaclipper

            Maybe you should read up on MacKenzie King and his talks with his deceased mommy if you're going to go the psychic route with an argument.

          • harrylime

            You better get some glasses. Harper's photo appears beside 'Descent'….

        • http://secondthots.blogspot.com Dennis_F

          What's there to be proud of if all it proves is your willingness to lie to citizens?

          Iggy still doesn't seem to get this political communications thing. But don't count on Wherry pointing it out. For example, the new poll out that shows Canadians also blaming Iggy for Harper's loss at the UN. What he was thinking by trashing our campaign BEFORE the vote? I don't think I'll ever know.

          But I have to admit, Harper's tactic has turned into a master stroke. It was desperate, but it worked.

          • Emily

            Actually the poll doesn't say that….but then a Conbot and lying go together.

          • http://secondthots.blogspot.com Dennis_F

            Instead of a knee-jerk lashing out at anyone who dares disagree with your Liberal agenda, why not tell us what you think the poll says?

            I'll even help you out. Here's the link: Voters split UN blame between Harper and Ignatieff in poll

          • Emily

            Gosh…'Nearly a third of Canadians accepted the Conservative government's claim that Liberal Leader Michael Ignatieff cost the country a seat on the United Nations Security Council, a new poll suggests.'

            The Conbots support Harper's idiotic claim….how amazing!

            Nobody else does though. Sorry.

          • http://secondthots.blogspot.com Dennis_F

            The poll says one third of Canadians. You're the one bringing your usual knee-jerk partisanship into it.

          • Emily

            Yes, Harper has one third support. The Con base.

            No one else believes such drivel.

          • craigola

            "Fifty per cent of those polled blamed “the government's recent record on international diplomacy” for the loss, but Mr. Ignatieff came in a close second."

            Because I truly enjoy your answers to questions, D_F, could I get your help with some math? Please, which number is bigger: 50 or 31?

          • kcm

            Come on Craig – 50 – 31 is within the acceptable margin of error…for some of us anyway.

          • http://secondthots.blogspot.com Dennis_F

            Here is my original assertion: "the new poll out that shows Canadians also blaming Iggy for Harper's loss at the UN."

            What is it about this sentence that you don't understand, guy? lol.

            Again, you should spend less time obsessing with me, and more time working on your argumentation skills. You might eventually make a dent. Thanks.

          • kcm

            Yes my poor reading skills – your point. However:
            as for obssessing…i hav'n't been on Macleans for 6 months or so before this last week [ busy life you know] …perhaps you need to check your meds.

          • albertaclipper

            Why do the left resort to name calling Emily. You folks are always telling us that the "progressives" are so much more educated than we on the right. Most of the name calling is done by the "educated" left.

            BTW,, calling someone a liar, cough – Iggy-cough when in fact they are, is ok……..just in case you may have gotten confused.

          • Emily

            I don't know, albertaclipper….I'm neither a 'leftie' nor a 'progressive'….not even a Liberal….sorry.

            But Harper is a known liar….and I loathe him.

          • albertaclipper

            Why do the left resort to name calling Emily. You folks are always telling us that the "progressives" are so much more educated than we on the right. Most of the name calling is done by the "educated" left.

            Ok. I forgot communist, sorry.

          • kcm

            From the poll:
            "Fifty per cent of those polled blamed “the government's recent record on international diplomacy” for the loss, but Mr. Ignatieff came in a close second." Ignatieff polled around 30% – still surprisingly high since it's patently absurd.

          • Mike T.

            YOU can fool summa the people…

          • kcm

            Apparently 30% or so.

          • Mike T.

            Astounding, isn't it? Ya gotta wonder if he's targeting the group that would believe it was pink unicorns (probably homosexhual ones!) who lost them the seat if he told them to believe it – and if the rest of Canadians have been overestimating the size of that body.

          • http://secondthots.blogspot.com Dennis_F

            Question: Why in the world did Iggy open his trap in the first place? Why didn't he wait until AFTER any UN vote? He only has himself to blame for this, doesn't he?

          • Emily

            To blame for what? You mean Iggy is so powerful, one sentence from him turns the UN against us after 60 years work?

            Harper has already moved on from that excuse to first, secret ballots, and then principles.

            Try to keep up.

          • http://secondthots.blogspot.com Dennis_F

            Why even say anything BEFORE the vote? I suggest YOU KEEP UP and answer the questions I've raised. After all these years, Nola, don't you get tired of this dishonest partisanship? You can't even answer simple questions. Instead, you lash out with resentment and bitterness. This is supposed to help your party, is it?

          • Reverend_Blair

            As leader of the opposition, it is his job to take the government to task for their policies. He recognized that those policies were hurting our chances for a seat on the Security Council and said so.

            Not sure why you don't want the opposition to do their job, Dennis.

          • http://secondthots.blogspot.com Dennis_F

            You know, there's a peculiar phenomenon I've notice with today's left. They seem to think that they can argue their way out of any situation — regardless of merit and facts.

            So, when Obama's health care agenda is tremendously unpopular, they blame it on "communications". When Canadians reject the coalition, the left blames it on ignorance.

            Similarly, when Iggy makes a goof and opens his yap BEFORE any final vote, and incredibly gets sticked with the blame, you guys come up with yet another argument as to why he's so great, instead of admitting that he might have made a mistake — yet another in a long list of communications blunders.

            Go take a look at the National Post Full Comment website. Although clearly slanted conservative,they bash their own all the time. Yet, amazingly, that hardly happens here. I wonder why.

          • Reverend_Blair

            I don't think Iggy's great, Dennis. As I've said before, I won't be voting for him. His comments were made to a domestic audience though, they appear to have had no influence on the outcome of the vote (based on the fact that nobody at the UN knew who he was), and his comments were correct…Harper's policies cost us a seat on the Security Council.

            Your constant inferences to the Liberals in general and Ignatieff in particular being from the political left is rather telling though. It shows a lack of political acumen, an inability to understand the political spectrum. That lack of understanding among its supporters contributes greatly to the Harper government's virtual incoherence when it comes to fact-based policy and the ability to take responsibility for their own failings.

          • gottabesaid

            I don't think any reasonable person would disagree that Ignatieff's comments were ill-advised, and ill-timed. I was also under the assumption that any reasonable person wouldn't actually think Ignatieff was to blame for the UN snafu. Even most of the pro-Conservative crew on these boards didn't think so. But the fact that 30 per cent of Canadians actually bought that line… yiiiiikes.

          • http://secondthots.blogspot.com Dennis_F

            I don't think any reasonable person would disagree that Ignatieff's comments were ill-advised, and ill-timed.

            You might want to tell that to some on here. Wait, I guess you just did?

            In fact, I've heard very little criticism of Ignatieff's comments before the vote. Maybe it ruins the current narrative that he's a born again leader after a summer tour of being friendly with Liberal followers. I don't know.

            Actually, I'm surprised, too, that the Conservative attack line was apparently this successful. But Iggy doesn't really have anyone to blame but himself, does he?

            Another point. I think one of the reasons Harper backed off on this was because of how unfair the UN vote came across, even to objective observers. Regardless of who's in power, or how independent our foreign policy is, Canada didn't deserve this. The UN might have suffered in its image in this country more than Harper's.

            So, while the foreign policy establishment might still be in a fit, not sure if Canadians are.

            You also might have noticed something else I just mentioned: Canada's independent foreign policy. Remember how Chretien was lauded for rejecting the war in Iraq? It was hailed as foreign policy independence. Now comes Harper, who is truly independent on this file, and not simply anti-American like Chretien, and he gets punished for it. Funny that.

          • Mike T.

            YOu know very well the answers to these questions and I will not stoop to answer them for you.

          • http://secondthots.blogspot.com Dennis_F

            Oh brother. What is it with some of you? Why even engage in debate if you have absolutely no interest in hearing the other side?

            It was a stupid thing to say. You want us to think it was smart. Fine. Next.

    • chet

      Lying to children.

      At a religious school.

      Layers of badness there.

      • Emily

        All of religion is a lie….layers of badness there.

  • TiredFarmer

    Well Diane here is what the Liberals are going to do. Your Mommy can stay home for 6 months on EI , therefore 55% of her current wage and look after her. Then your Daddy can stay home for 6 months on EI @ 55 % of his wage to look after her. We'll give you a $1,200.00 tax credit and if she's not dead at the end of the year your SOL and you;ll have to quit school and stay home and look after her or put her in a home because you see Diane my plan expects your granny and all those other old folks to die with a year or less.

    • Emily

      Mmm no, under the old plan you had to 'guarantee' in writing your parent would die within an alloted time….Iggy changed that.

    • Richard_S_Argent

      Of course the current plan expects granny to die in six weeks…

  • Jan

    Dam Canadians, they're needs get in the way of the Harper agenda.Don't worry, big business, Steve's got your back.

    • f4hq

      Who does big business employ again?

      • Reverend_Blair

        False question. They don't employ people because they want to, they do it because they have to. As a result they give those employees as little as possible. This plan would force them to give a little more to their employees. Given how little large corporations return to this country, and how much they take out, this really isn't asking that much.

        • f4hq

          Yeah its called sanity… supply and demand you know? BTW the "big business" that employs me pays very well because i'm in demand and I structured myself to be in that position. Canada would be much better off if it rewarded the "doers instead of the don'ters"… Big business is a "doer".

          Your image of economic reality is skewed and scary.

          "This plan would force them to give a little more to their employees. Given how little large corporations return to this country, and how much they take out"

          Almost expected you to cheer Lenin and yell "Proletarians Unite!" The funny thing is the working class is much better off with a strong private sector…

          Ever wonder why the west enjoys the standard of living that we currently do? If you guessed "the free market" then give yourself a cookie. Ever increasing government involvement will be the end of our prosperity if people like you have your way. Where is the middle class going? They are being taxed into poverty…

          • Reverend_Blair

            The workers are the "doers". You seem unable to understand that. The management of big business produces very little in the way of tangible goods, yet they get paid huge salaries.

            You also fail to understand that the shrinking wages of the middle class are occurring because their employers are failing to pay them as much or to provide as many benefits as they once did. Workers are earning less, in real terms, than they used to for the same amount of labour.

            Of course while that erosion of real wages has been occurring, the share of the tax burden that corporations carry has been shrinking. So working people are expected to carry more of the overall tax burden while earning lower wages, all to benefit corporations.

            If corporations actually did as they claimed, it would be a different story, but they don't. They cut jobs even when profitable. The do very little R&D. They re-invest as little as possible. They suck at innovation. They rip the environment apart. They actively lobby against anything that would better the lot of society in general. They crashed the world economy. Corporatism is low-wage conservatism at its worst

            I'll take no lessons from you on free enterprise either. I've earned at least part of my living through self-employment for most of my life. I have a pretty good working knowledge of supply and demand, since feeding myself depends on it.

            Go ahead and call me a commie though. I guess I am, since I am both a worker and control the means of production.

            Now, if you'll excuse me, I have to go and put some of that means of production in my truck and go do some work.

          • Orson Bean

            FYI, most Scandinavian countries have extremelhy high tax rates overall (tax receipts at a % of GDP range from 48 to 54% last time I checked). However, corporate tax rates are quite competitive and even low, compared to certain of their OECD peers. the Scandinavians tend to tax income and especially consumption very highly. I believe that when I was in Denmark a couple of years ago, the VAT (equivalent to our GST/HST) was 26% or something like that. The Canadian left often holds the Scandinavian countries out as paragons or models that we should follow, but these countries do not punitively tax corporations, which is part of the reason companies like Nokia and IKEA can thrive there. So it's hardly an "anti-corporate" approach that's being pursued in these countries which are conventionally seen as quinessentially social democratic.

          • Reverend_Blair

            Bit of a strawman there, Orson, since I made no reference to Scandanavian countries.

          • Orson Bean

            I was using those countries to illustrate the fact that even decidedly left-leaning governments, whom left-leaning people tend to look upon with approval, do not necessarily impose punishing, or even high, income taxes on corporations. You seem to be in favour of high income taxes for corporations, and seem to think that this results in social and economic justice, social and economic good, etc. But it seems to me that the "Scandinavian way" directly contradicts that assumption. The typical Scandinavian tax mix has been one of very high consumption taxes, relatively high personal income taxes, and relatively low or moderate corporate income taxes. But if I've incorrectly interpreted your assumptions, please correct me.

      • Style

        Liberals?

  • chet

    But then there's little Bobby, from Swift Current.

    Why just the other day Bobby asked Harper:

    "Mr. Harper, this man Mr. Ignatiaff keeps promising my mom and dad all kinds of things, but says they won't cost us anything. My dad tells me nothing in life if free. Is my dad wrong? I'm worried Mr. Ignatiaff is just telling my dad stuff, so he votes for him, but that he can't really do what he's promising.

    That makes me sad. Mr. Ignatiaff makes me sad. Why does Mr. Ignatieff like to make little kids sad?"

    • Emily

      chet…your trolling net has huge holes in it, so give the fishing a rest. Nobody's biting.

      • f4hq

        Coming from the Queen of trolls!

    • Jan

      And Harper replied – from 40 feet behind the rope line – 'get your parents to vote for me and when you grow up there will be an almost obsolete jet plane for you to fly'.

      • albertaclipper

        Should probably read what the article again

        "But Ross said holding a competitive process would eliminate the F-35 as an option. That means Canada would be saddled with 15-year-old models to choose from, which will be more than 20 years old when they are delivered. You cannot buy old technology … for unforeseen threats for 20, 30 or 40 years."Let's remember that we're acquiring fighters for the next 30 or 40 years. I would ask whether you would want your son or daughter, or future granddaughter in yesterday's technology or rather in the most effective and secure aircraft in the future.

        The above refers to the F35 Jan.

        • Jan

          I'm going with what Alan Williams has to say about the MOU.

          • albertaclipper

            I guess with Alan being brought along by the baby Liberals (Mulroney) and Chretien he would kind of lean toward the left (under the big red tent) and not really have anything good to say about anything that happened after 2005. Plus he's a little behind the times too.

          • Richard_S_Argent

            I'm sorry, what's that about Mulroney?

          • Rob Shift

            Not a real conservative. Doesn't count? I'm sure the same will be said about Mr. Harper in 10 – 15 years.

          • Richard_S_Argent

            I must admit, I'm surprised to see some on the right abandon the man who gave them the largest majority in Canadian history (at the time).

            how odd.

          • Orson Bean

            They sort of abandoned his party in a big way in 1993, don't you think?

          • Rob Shift

            If, by 'abandoned,' you actually mean, 'renamed,' then… Yes.

          • Orson Bean

            Umm, they didn't rename the Progressive Conservative Party in 1993. They just reduced it from 169 seats to 2. The PC Party didn't merge & rename itself until a decade or so after that.

          • Rob Shift

            Ah, misread your meaning.

  • Philanthropist

    The First American Prime Minister in waiting should just go back to being a Harvard professor. His party is still full of crooks and can't be trusted with their hands in the treasury, everyone knows that.

    • kcm

      John Baird's up late.

    • Emily

      Harper is the first American prime minister. Credit where credit is due.

  • albertaclipper

    Ok. I forgot to get rid of the last comment. It's too late. Have a good night all. Manana

  • motor

    why is baird responding to so many questions, can the ministers not answer for themselves ?

    • WDM

      Oh motor, you slay me.

  • Emily

    No, atheist. Goodness you're confused.

  • werdna

    Boy the Conbots are out in force this morning. Too bad Stevie and all his magnificent economic training has delivered us the largest budget deficit. In. Canadian. History.

  • Richard_S_Argent

    ^ Who invited Herbert Hoover to the party?

  • Rob Shift

    I think you might be confused. Atheism is not communism. And, it hasn't really been viewed that way since McCarthy. You'll probably find that there aren't too many social conservative atheists, but there are plenty of libertarians and fiscal conservatives.

  • kcm

    Ouch! Got me twice DF. That should make your day.

  • Trudeau lover

    As far as empty rhetoric and cynical politicking goes, American Iggo nailed it. Awesome! "It's hard to be an American" says Igg, and even harder to be a self confessed American, who was inserted into the leadership of the liberal/Separatist party, and desires to be inserted into the PMO of Canada. Warm and fuzzy American Iggo kissing babies, while hiding the excrement of the real Liberal/Separatist agenda of massive tax hikes and hidden social engineering schemes. No details from the Igg, just pie in the sky empty rhetoric right out of the Obummer election handbook. Time for some empty slogans too Donolo, how about "Hope and Change" or "The Just Society" Heh, heh. I mean empty un- costed rhetoric is good, but empty rhetorical slogans are also good. Message to American Iggo, the majority of Canadians are not interested in having you or any other inserted leader of the Liberal/Separatist party imposing the 1993 Liberal "Red" book. If American Iggo wants to do something useful start by getting rid of political party welfare.

    • kcm

      Yawn!!

  • craigola

    'Sokay. You can just call me craigola.

  • Emily

    Time to heave Steve.

    Who is not, btw, an economist.

  • http://secondthots.blogspot.com Dennis_F

    Thank God Canadians decide that — despite what the coalition wanted to do last time.

  • Emily

    I think I hear your mom calling you.

  • Anon Liberal

    Actually it's essentially Parliamentarians, as representatives of the people, who decide who gets to wield power. Tradition dictates that it's the party with the highest number of seats which is first offered an opportunity to form a government but, in a minority government scenario, it's not written in stone that they will in fact do so. Sometimes the Governor-General is consulted in moments of high confusion. If all else fails another election is held to try and straighten everything out.

    Your knowledge of our constitutional process though, like that of most Neocons, is impressive otherwise. I have complete faith that our constant reminders of how the Westminster parliamentary system actually works will eventually fill in any of the remaining gaps in your understanding.

  • http://secondthots.blogspot.com Dennis_F

    That's because you have nothing constructive to say on this topic or anything else. Thanks.

  • Emily

    No point saying anything to a Pict.

  • http://secondthots.blogspot.com Dennis_F

    During the election, were Canadians given the choice of a left-wing separatist coalition with Stephane Dion as prime minister? Of course not. Which is why Canadians despised it. Thank God democracy prevailed. But you go on insulting people who dare disagree with you, ya hear?

  • Anon Liberal

    No they were generally given a choice of 5-10 individuals representing a range of different political parties and these individuals are, in turn, tasked with representing them in Parliament, including deciding which party will form the government. Please continue being willfully ignorant though.

  • http://secondthots.blogspot.com Dennis_F

    So they WEREN'T given the coalition as a democratic option during the democratic campaign. Thank you.

  • Anon Liberal

    Way to miss the point Einstein.

  • http://secondthots.blogspot.com Dennis_F

    Nope. A coalition is technically legal, just as David Emerson crossing the floor was technically legal. Doesn't mean it was democratic or popular.

  • Anon Liberal

    It's not just "technically" legal. It's legal and completely legitimate full-stop. It is also completely democratic. I will concede though that it may not have been popular, especially with your end of the political spectrum understandably enough. Tough noogies.

    You're on the right track though in starting to distinguish what is legal vs. democratic vs. popular.

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