Beyond The Commons

Aaron Wherry covers all the goings-on in and around Parliament Hill. Follow Aaron on Twitter: @aaronwherry

Categories: Beyond The Commons, Capital Read

The guilty plea

by Aaron Wherry on Wednesday, October 27, 2010 9:37am - 0 Comments

Andrew Sullivan considers the fate of Omar Khadr.

I don’t know how anyone who cares about the integrity and moral standing of the United States can absorb the full details of this case and not be profoundly ashamed.

Tags: Afghanistan, Andrew Sullivan, Guantanamo, Omar Khadr, terrorism, torture

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Reader

Or "the integrity and moral standing" of Canada for that matter. And our leader calls himself a Christian.
Emily

Canada should be profoundly ashamed we did nothing to help Khadr, and in fact made things worse.

Our country has fallen into a moral abyss.

hollinm

Emily…. no Emily it is you and the rest of the lefties on this board that should be ashamed. He committed a crime, has now pleaded guilty and will get 8 years. This man is a terrorist and given his history he will commit a terrorist act again if given the opportunity. What would you have Canada do? Kidnap him from the U.S? Ask Chretien why the Libs allowed him to rot in jail when he actually was a child.
This process is unfolding as it should.
hollinm

Emily….look at the poll on MacLeans today. Most Canadians do not agree with your sentiments.

Emily

There is no justification for what you've done, so don't even try it. And certainly not with a freeped 'online poll'

The US has fallen into barbarism, and you've fallen with them….you and your corrupt leader.
http://intensedebate.com/people/Ottawa_Centrist Ottawa_Centrist

Maclean's polls now represent Canadian sentiments?

TJCook

Only when they are aligned with hollinm's personal views. Otherwise, they're clearly useless.

NorthernPoV

from the linked article:
"His plea allows him to be released to a Canadian jail to serve out seven of his eight remaining years. Somehow, I doubt he will remain behind bars once he is remanded to a country that obeys international law about treatment of child soldiers and prohibits abuse, coercion and torture in interrogations."
Harper and his heartless hooligans have shown they care not about these traditional Canadian (humanist) values.

Jan

He must think Romeo Dallaire is in tune with the current government. Nothing could be further from the truth.

chet

(cross posted from Gedde's above…same topic)

That the interrogation revealed the placement of roadside bombs,

and thus saved the lives of innocents,

appears not to be the slightest of interest to those condemning Kadre's treatment.

To admit that interrogation resulted in saved lives would be cataclysmic to the anti-interrogation/leftists.

It is so much easier to frame the issue (as much of the leftist media has) as the choice between being barbaric and interrogating, or "peaceful" and not interrogating.

The notion that not interrogating, and hence willfully allowing innocents to die, is far, far more barbaric than the alternative is unthinkable,

and so these facts are stricken from the public record.

The price of the moral preening and self-righteous indignation at the notion of interrogation, is the death of innocents. A price politically correct crowd dare not speak about in polite company.

Peterborough Dave

He was tortured.
Mike T.

Any information about the location of any bombs would have been extracted through torture and therefore somewhere between compromised and useless – even if some of it later turned out to be correct.
Rob Shift

Chet, you raise a valid point. The question is, would you still be okay with using 'advanced interrogation techniques' on someone who is innocent? And, what is the threshold whereby A.I.T become reasonable?

Mike T.

Chet, you raise a valid point.

***

Where?

(rhetorical)

Rob Shift

It is legitimate to ask the question, "If you could save the lives of several, would you destroy the life of one?" I think the answer is no, unless that one volunteers. But that doesn't mean that the question can't be asked. Or the issue be raised.

Jan

I has been discussed at length in the United States. The question that you've neglected to ask – is information derived from torture dependable?

brooster2

"The price of the moral preening and self-righteous indignation at the notion of interrogation, is the death of innocents. A price politically correct crowd dare not speak about in polite company."

The price judgmental hypocrisy and a conveniently double moral standard is the eventual loss of freedom for all. If we bend the standards of justice for one, then who's next?

chet

And so, in the world of today's left, the one who trains to be a terrorist, vows to destroy our way of life, celebrates the killing of "unbelievers", is the innocent victim.

It is Harper, (and it seems always Harper, in the partisan left's binary world of "Conservative bad, everything else contra good") who is the "hooligan", according to the commenters here.

Welcome to today's "progressive left".

Reader

Andrew Sullivan is no leftist. So why is he, too, outraged? This is no left vs. right issue.

Paying Attention

Andrew Sullivan is extremely a leftist.

Jan

He is Catholic. He seems to be taking his faith seriously.

hollinm

I have no idea who Andrew Sullivan is. All I know is that Omar Khadr and his family are terrorists and have participated in acts of terrorism. He killed an American medic in Afghanistan and he is being tried and now has been convicted of that crime. The process was messy we all can agree. However, the outrage being demonstrated by the media and some in this country is misplaced. Why didn't Chretien bring him back when he actually was a child soldier. There was no hue and cry then when it actually meant something.
Canadians in most polls that I see do not have much sympathy for Kadhr. However, I suspect at some point when the sentencing is finished he will be brought back and then what will the sympathizers have to complain about. Oh, I know. Now he needs to be pardoned.

Mike T.

All I know is that Omar Khadr and his family are terrorists and have participated in acts of terrorism.

***

Are you clairvoyant? There was no trial. There may be some evidence, but you cannot KNOW this. You may merely suspect.
Peterborough Dave

The true test of a nation of laws is how we treat the Homolkas, Barnardos, Olsens, and yes, Khadrs. This is not a question of guilt or innocence. It's about the process.

We failed.

hollinm

Why have we failed? Do you think that the U.S. would have repatriated Khadr knowing he had killed one of its soldiers by throwing a grenade? Frankly, I don't think so. As I have said elsewhere if you don't like the process go to the United States and complain. The process is playing out as it should. Chretien did not see fit to return him to Canada when he actually was 15 years old. He could have but did not. So the process may be flawed but it is coming to the end and we will see about repatriation.
Nice to be able to be an armchair quaterback and complain about the process. If it were my son or daughter killed I would want to see my government prosecute him to the full extent of the law. Khadr is damn lucky the Americans treated him for his wounds rather than killing him.
brooster2

"If it were my son or daughter killed I would want to see my government prosecute him to the full extent of the law."

Um…I think that's what critics are asking for…the full extent of the law, that is. Hasn't happened in this case.
Peterborough Dave

Well that's just it isn't it. They did treat him for his wounds. Why? They have a value system. Which was honoured by the men and women at the front. And subsequently ditched by those in government.

That is why we failed. We are a nation of laws.

http://intensedebate.com/people/Ottawa_Centrist Ottawa_Centrist

What of guilty victims?
brooster2

"And so, in the world of today's left, the one who trains to be a terrorist, vows to destroy our way of life, celebrates the killing of "unbelievers", is the innocent victim."

For once, you're almost right, even if unintentionally. He is, indeed, the innocent victim UNTIL PROVEN GUILTY IN A FAIR TRIAL.

NorthernPoV

So chet is x-posting!
We can ignore his identical rants in both places!!

chet

Of course you will ignore it. The possibility that not interrogating will result in innocent lives being taken, must be ignored by you. That is my whole point.

Eas Coas

What you're missing here is that we who decry illegal interrogation techniques did not plant the roadside bombs. The perpetrator who refuses to confess his crimes, much less not commit them in the first place, is the one letting innocents die. So don't you dare accuse us of "letting innocents die."

We cannot right every wrong a terrorist or criminal commits. We can only ensure that we do not ourselves commit wrongs while trying to solve crimes and serve justice. That may not be much comfort to innocent victims, but there has to be a limit to what we can and will do.

hollinm

The fact remains Canadian citizens who commit crimes in other countries are going to be tried in those countries. Yes we can provide counsellor facilities etc but we have little control. Khadr killed an American citizen. He participated in a war trying to kill Americans and other coalition soldiers.
The United States is not some back water hick country. Whether due process was followed enough to suit the lefties in this country is neither here nor there.
The evidence given by the prosecution's physciatrist is chilling. However, it is the prosecution so they cannot be believed right?
Most Canadians (see latest CTV poll) do not agree with him being brought back to Canada. He is a terrorist and believes in terrorism.

Emily

The US is definitely a backwater hick country…they have nothing resembling 'civilization' left.

And YOU are a barbarian along with them.

hollinm

Emily………you have no idea who I am and once again you resort to name calling. I believe people have to take responsbility for their own actions. Khadr is lucky he is not being tried in a place like Pakistan.

The United States is currently being destroyed from within because of a very left wing President who has no idea what he is doing.

Emily

Yes, I know exactly what you are.

Crazy.

Amateur Hour

"The fact remains Canadian citizens who commit crimes in other countries are going to be tried in those countries. "

Imagine y surprise to learn that Khadr has been detained and tried in Afghanistan after all these years.

Will wonders never cease?

"The evidence given by the prosecution's physciatrist is chilling. "

You mean testimony the prosecution's been paying large amounts of cash for?

hollinm

Of course we know anybody who preaches against Khadr are barbarians, corrupt or whatever label you want to put on them. We all know he is a fun loving kid who just wanted to play basketball and hang out with his friends. You guys needs a reality check and wake up to the reality of today's world. Yikes.

Amateur Hour

No, Khadr was a radicalized youth engaged with violent extremists. He could have and should have been subjected to a legitimate legal process. If found to be too young to hold criminally responsible, he should have been remanded to juvenile facility. If found to be eligible and competent to stand trial, he should have been charged and prosecuted.

Instead, he was sent from black site to black site, ultimately held without charge for several years under no recognized national or legal authority. Charges against him were posted, then dropped, then re-written. He had no right to challenge the evidence against him. The process of prosecuting him was similarly manufactured and re-worked in an illegitimate manner (even the US courts and the JAG found this to be so). Finally, he was pressed to plead guilty to violations of laws written and re-written years AFTER his alleged actions. In one case, a law was specifically altered to apply to him but not others.

The US and Canada — global leaders in promoting the rule of law and well as the rules of war — embarrassed and sullied themselves in the farce of Khadr's detention and trial. Only one western country accepted this kangaroo process, reminiscent of show-trials, for its citizen: Canada.

Meanwhile, both the US and Canada successfully prosecuted terrorists in actual courts under actual laws.

Rob Shift

This.

http://intensedebate.com/people/Ottawa_Centrist Ottawa_Centrist

Online polls aren't worth anything. Otherwise, the coalition of 2008 would be regarded as the most legitimate and popular governance option in the history of confederation.

Amateur Hour

Ex post facto, the US government re-wrote laws to retroactively prosecute Khadr while insulating their own personnel from the same standards of justice. Khadr has been subjected to detention without charge or trial, manufactured kangaroo courts that have been convened and then disbanded multiple times, and finally the US actually rewrote laws overnight so that he could be convicted of offenses that weren't crimes when they occurred.

And when not just standing by, Canada actually helped. Disgusting.

From NYT:

"But several factors made the effort to prosecute Mr. Khadr for war crimes unusual: The centerpiece of the charges against him was not a conventional terrorism offense — the targeting of civilians — but the killing of an enemy in combat. Usually in war, battlefield killing is not prosecuted. But the United States contended that Mr. Khadr lacked the privilege of battlefield immunity because he wore no uniform, among other requirements of the laws of war.

The uniform issue also led to a scramble by the Obama legal team to rewrite commission rules on the eve of a pretrial hearing for Mr. Khadr. Because Central Intelligence Agency drone operators also kill while not wearing uniforms, they rewrote the rules to downgrade murder from a war crime to a domestic law offense.

Moreover, child soldiers are almost never prosecuted for war crimes. That meant that the coverage of Mr. Khadr’s case around the world was dominated by persistent questions about whether the case was appropriate."

Jan

This is a total fail for Obama, who promised to bring justice to the trying of alleged terrorists.

Style

Khadr is a poor poster boy for child soldiers. He wasn't kidnapped, abused, drugged and forced to participate in this war – the way many child soldiers are. He flew to a distant country to volunteer. Torturing him seems cruel and ridiculous. How much of a confession did they need after pulling him from the rubble of the compound? Was he claiming that he was just visiting friends there when a firefight broke out?

WDM

While it's difficult to do anything about it now, Khadr wasn't born to hate, it was bred into him by his terorist parents.
Mike T.

The parental influence is a huge factor. Clearly you don't really get the tremendous effect parents can have on their teenage children. Even if it doesn't excuse his actions any consideration of appropriate retribution can't realistically take place without taking it into account.
NorthernPoV

Poster Boy?
only as an enemy icon in right wing fantasies

What your lot doesn't seem to get is that no one who supports human rights and child-soldier laws actually likes this poor boy.
See, that's the funny thing about rights …. the recipients often seem unworthy – but that's the point of blind justice.

Lee_JD

Well put. Laws apply to everyone, and so do human rights.

Criacow

I don't think anyone can disagree with this. This is, in fact, what the rule of law is.

Where I am troubled is how the law was so blatantly disregarded. To quote Dan Gardner in this morning's Ottawa Citizen,

"Being 15, Khadr was a child soldier under the terms of a United Nations convention signed by, among others, the U.S. and Canada. Certain important obligations followed from that. American officials honoured none of them.
As a minor, Khadr was also entitled to certain forms of treatment under other international conventions which the U.S. has signed. Again, American officials refused to honour their obligations."
And it goes on from there. (http://www2.canada.com/ottawacitizen/columnists/story.html?id=8ce20763-8f5a-4c19-a290-3345934a509f)

So yes. Let him "hide behind his Canadian citizenship," as you call it, and come have a fair trial. And if he is found guilty, then he should be sentenced to life imprisonment for high treason. But at least we'd know that the justice system worked, and the law was followed for everyone.

hollinm

The crimes were not committed in Canada so how could we try him?

john g

He's a Canadian Citizen. It doesn't matter where the crimes were committed. If you're a Canadian citizen it is high treason to take up arms against Canada or help enemy soldiers anywhere in the world. See subsection 3.
Andrew (not PorC)

You can't read, can you?
Criacow

"(a) commits high treason if, while in or out of Canada, he does anything mentioned in subsection (1)"

That was *right in the comment I replied to*! How hard is this, really?

Ernie Seedhouse

There are many people in Canada suffering from poverty, sickness and mistreatment. Our jails are overcrowded and many of our fellow Canadians are homeless. I do not care about Omar Khadr, he is lost, let him go. Focus you desire to help the oppressed right here in Canada.
hollinm

Don't try to tell the crew on this blog anything approaching reality. They believe Khadr is a fun loving kid who is misunderstood and simply wants to play basketball and hang out with his friends. Its called Liberal la la land.

Criacow

No, we believe in the rule and fairness of law, and want to see him get an honest trial.

I didn't realize it was "Liberal la la land" to think that our Constitution, laws and justice system mean something.

hollinm

Last I heard Cuba was not part of Canada. Khadr ran afoul of the United States not Canada. It is the American justice system that has a beef with him. Go to the States and challenge their system if you don't like how he is being treated; the poor dear. Yelling about his unfair treatment in Canada is really pointing in the wrong direction. Complain to our neighbours to the South.

NorthernPoV

so when you are not telling us what to say (to shut down debate)
you are telling us what we are saying (inventing straw man bs)

tedious
brooster2

How many ways does it need to be explained to you?

Using small words, short sentences, and simple concepts: those speaking out are not members of the Khadr Fan Club. Those criticizing the treatment of Omar Khadr are advocates of due process before the law.

What part of this don't you get?

hollinm

How many ways does it need to be explained to you. This is the United States' issue. Not ours. Go there and complain if you don't like how they are doing it. However, our government is doing exactly what it should. It is allowing the process to unfold and then will make a decision on repatriation. God some of you people are bleeding hearts? What would you say if he had killed your son or daughter? Would you be as supportive? Somehow I don't think so.

brooster2

This is the United States' issue? There's a nice abdication of responsibility. The same weasel-like position as the Harper government.

Khadr is a Canadian citizen. That alone is reason for Canadian attention and concern. The fact that Canadian security services apparently collaborated in his interrogation and alleged torture is reason for Canadian concern and attention. The fact that he was apparently the only foreign national in Gitmo whose government made no effort to protect his rights is reason for Canadian concern and attention.

If he had killed my son or daughter, I would obviously be grief-stricken. But I would also have to recognize that my child chose to put him or herself in harm's way by knowingly entering a theater of war. And I would hope that, if the alleged perpetrator was charged with the felony, he would get the benefit of due process because that's a human right in whose defense my child died.

And if you want to contemptuously dismiss those who defend that right as "bleeding hearts" then I would counter that those who propose cavalierly violating that right when it suits them are dangerous wingnuts.

Mike T.

No matter what one may think of Khadr himself, it is impossible to think that the treatment of him has been anything but shameful. He should have received an appropriate adjudication for his actions years ago, rather than be subjected to the ridiculous illegal treatment supposedly civilized countries put him through. This is supposed to be why we're better than the Muslim terrorists, fer cryin' out loud!

Claudia Lemire

I agree!

Mike T.

I am not sure it would be appropriate to try him twice for the same thing, even if in separate countries.
Peterborough Dave

If a few of us have to die, well that's the price of liberty. Why are right-wingers so scared of a few piddling terrorists? You have a better chance of being struck by lightning. Cripes, last year 76000 Americans died from falls. When are we declaring a global War On Gravity?

Al O'Wishes

When are we declaring a global War On Gravity?

Soon, I hope. I'm tired of all these Newtonian Laws keeping me down.
Lee_JD

Global war on gravity. That's awesome!

Seriously though, don't give them any ideas…

Jan

chet, if you believe in the devil, you are selling your soul to him at bargain basement prices.
Claudia Lemire

It's unfortunate that Chenney and Bush are not being prosecuted for their crimes, having said that, I do feel a lot of compassion for Khadr, I also hope he can feel that compassion and finds forgiveness in his heart, because other wise I think he will strike back, I truly hope he can move on!

Jan

Thanks to Wikleaks they may be yet.

bergkamp

"We sleep soundly in our beds because rough men stand ready in the night to visit violence on those who would do us harm." ~ Winston Churchill

Countries aren't people, we should not expect them to follow moral codes. America might not have lived up to Sullivan's lofty standards but I would still choose to live in America over just about anywhere else in world if I was forced to leave Canada.

And as I wrote elsewhere, Khadr is fortunate to still be alive and to be have been captured by Americans. Khadr would be dead, after having suffered proper torture and not just verbal threats, if captured by most of countries.

Rob Shift

But we, and the US, are not most countries. Our commitment to freedom, and the rule of law, is what sets us apart. As such, we have an obligation to treat our prisoners humanely. And, to that end, the suggestion that we should follow the lead of the rest of the world, instead of setting the pace ourselves, is asinine.
brooster2

A classic rationalization for unethical conduct. Use it if it works for you but don't expect thoughtful people to buy into into it.

Lee_JD

Here's the problem: we cannot now legally prosecute Khadr because the US screwed up the judicial process so badly. Any Canadian judge will just throw the case out (like they should).

That's one of the reasons we should be upset with the US, if for nothing else.
LdKitchenersOwn

"His plea allows him to be released to a Canadian jail to serve out seven of his eight remaining years. Somehow, I doubt he will remain behind bars once he is remanded to a country that obeys international law about treatment of child soldiers and prohibits abuse, coercion and torture in interrogations"

Clearly somebody hasn't been paying attention to Canada lately.

Jan

He will be stuck at Gitmo as long as Harper is PM. Legal obligations mean nothing to him. And he's gotta keep the pitchfork crowd happy.

LdKitchenersOwn

I agree that he'll be stuck in PRISON for as long as Harper is PM, and likely beyond that (it's not like the Liberals were paragons of virtue on this file), but he'll be out of Gitmo in a year. The Americans WANT him out of Gitmo, and I just can't see Harper standing in the way of that.

Khadr will be repatriated to Canada because that's what the President of the United States wants to have happen.

Rob Shift

Now this I can get behind; I believe that the evidence is fairly conclusive that he was assisting militants against NATO forces. Although, I would still like to see some leniency based on his age at the time.

LdKitchenersOwn

I'm pretty sure you'll get leniency!

Even when the charge is treason, judges in real courts tend to take a dim view of 15 year old suspects being imprisoned without trial for nine years, no matter what they're accused of. I don't think any attempt to try Khadr for treason in a civilian court would last more than a week before a judge angrily threw it out.

hollinm

Is he being tried by the Cubans? I don't think so. Get real Jan.

http://scottdiatribe.canflag.com/ Scott_Tribe

He's being tried in a legal black hole so he cant be subjected to those rule of law courts in the US… and also to get convictions. "There will be no acquittals" was the quote from a Bush-era official on the setup of Guantanamo tribunals. Get real yourself.

LdKitchenersOwn

Actually, it wouldn't have mattered particularly had there been an acquittal, as the U.S. has repeatedly claimed the right to keep prisoners detained indefinitely at Gitmo even if they're found not guilty at trial. It's why this plea deal stinks to high heaven. Khadr's choice was basically "plead to eight years and know when you're going to get out or take your chances at trial, and maybe STILL not get out, even if you're found not guilty".

Once being found not guilty is no longer a guarantee that you'll be set free, confessing and taking a plea deal so that at least you'll finally know how long they're going to keep you in prison starts to sound like a pretty sweet deal, even if you were innocent.

LdKitchenersOwn

if Khadr wants to hide behind his Canadian citizenship

Frankly, I don't care what Khadr wants, I think we should treat Canadian citizens like Canadian citizens and AGGRESSIVELY fight for their rights abroad, even if they're scumbags.

Of course, I question the notion that Khadr has been "hiding behind" his Canadian citizenship. What good has his Canadian citizenship done him up to this point?