Beyond The Commons

Beyond The Commons

Aaron Wherry covers all the goings-on in and around Parliament Hill. Follow Aaron on Twitter: @aaronwherry

The Commons: Would you let this man fly your plane?

by Aaron Wherry on Monday, December 13, 2010 6:42pm - 83 Comments

The Scene. So maybe here was a potentially telling anecdote for those who wish to better understand the mind of this Defence Minister, courtesy of course of Tony Clement’s tweets.

Last week Peter MacKay and Mr. Clement were dispatched to Texas, apparently for the purposes of the multi-billion-dollar purchase of new warplanes their government presently vows to pursue. As a result of Mr. Clement’s breathless dispatches, we know that at one point the ministers were invited to try out a flight simulator in Dallas. There, apparently, Mr. MacKay proved himself to be somewhat less than qualified to fly one of the planes he now desires. Later, “laughing maniacally,” he apparently decided to see if he could successfully fly underneath the Brooklyn Bridge.

What, if anything, to make of this?

The uptight amongst us might suggest this betrays a certain lack of seriousness. But rather perhaps it is that Mr. MacKay takes his job so seriously that he wouldn’t think of committing billions in public money toward new warplanes without testing himself whether one of the flying contraptions was capable of such a manoeuvre. Perhaps this amounts to due diligence.

Or perhaps—at the risk of psychoanalyzing a man on the basis of 140 characters—it speaks to a certain fearlessness in Mr. MacKay, an enduring faith in his own abilities and an unending bravery in the face of risk. This would, at the very least, explain the minister’s consistently undaunted appearance in Question Period.

It took Mr. MacKay a mere three sentences this afternoon to say something of a highly questionable nature.

“Mr. Speaker, of course, nothing could be further from the truth,” he claimed after the Michael Ignatieff suggested an open-bidding process for purchase of new jet fighters might be for the best. “There was a competition. In fact the competition took place under the tutelage of the party of the Leader of the Opposition.”

In one of a series of newspaper stories published these last few days, this particular claim was deemed a “total fabrication“—one seemingly at conflict with the minister’s own words. And that is apparently but one of a number of highly debatable claims the government side has made to explain its desire, in a time of supposed austerity, to spend billions of dollars on warplanes.

To the enduring benefit of Mr. MacKay’s ministerial career, his is not a presence that can be shaken by the mere existence of contrary claims and documentation. Indeed, here Mr. MacKay rose in typically patronizing form, so apparently sure of his version of events and so eager to display his disappointment in the other side. ”In fact what we are seeing here is a win-win situation,” he enthused, “certainly a win for the Canadian Forces for the new state-of-the-art aircraft, the fifth generation aircraft, the only one available to our country. But of course for the Canadian aerospace industry the potential for contracts up to $12 billion and 150,000 jobs. This is great for the Canadian economy and I do not know why the Liberal leader opposes it.”

“Mr. Speaker, the defence minister’s credibility on this issue is in tatters,” Mr. Ignatieff shot back.

“Ohh!” the government side mocked.

“On May 27, he promised Parliament an open and competitive bid. On July 16, he reversed himself,” the Liberal leader continued. “He made one estimate for the maintenance costs of this airplane. It has now more than doubled. He has overplayed the industrial benefits, downplayed the cost. None of his numbers about this plane add up.”

Lesser men might have felt it necessary to address these complaints directly. Mr. MacKay astutely redirected the debate to the more appropriate question: Who here more lucratively supports the troops?

“Mr. Speaker, I do not know why it is every time push comes to shove, every time the issue is about getting the Canadian Forces new equipment to protect them, to promote their interests and Canada’s interests abroad, the Liberal Party is against it,” he lamented.

Mr. Ignatieff shook both his hands in Mr. MacKay’s direction, nearly pleading with the Defence Minister. “I defy the Minister of National Defence to tell the Canadian people what this plane will actually cost,” he begged. “No number the government presents on this issue is credible.” As if to taunt the leader of the opposition, the Defence Minister stood to assert the existence of a “contract” that commits Canada to buy 65 new warplanes at a cost of $9-billion.

“You’re making it up!” mocked Ralph Goodale from his frontbench seat. “You have no contract!” And indeed, by at least one report, it will be perhaps three more years before such a binding commitment exists.

On cue, here came Liberal industry critic to wonder if the Defence Minister was incompetent or merely misleading.

“Mr. Speaker,” demurred Mr. MacKay, “it is nice to see the member bring such a class act to the House prior to Christmas.”

“Mr. Speaker,” shot back Mr. Garneau, somewhat confusingly “from one class act to another.”

The Liberal backbencher was apparently only emboldened by the minister’s admonishment. “The minister of defence does not understand his job,” he declared. “He has also deliberately misled Canadians from the beginning.”

The government side howled for the Speaker to admonish the member. “Speaker?” pleaded John Baird, that paragon of virtuous rhetoric. “Speaker?”

Mr. Garneau proceeded to list a half-dozen matters insufficiently resolved, finishing with a flourish that was both generous and denunciatory. “Does the minister need some help on how to do procurement properly?” he cried. “I will give him a hand. So far, there has been nothing but monumental incompetence.”

Back up came Mr. MacKay, presented here with an individual certified to fly the space shuttle, but himself prepared with a very long preamble to a very small joke. “Mr. Speaker, if the member for Westmount—Ville-Marie, who is a former astronaut, a former member of the Canadian Forces, continues to belittle the local aerospace industries, if he continues to belittle the former colleagues he had in the Canadian Forces and the pressing equipment needs that they have, calling them generals’ toys, if he continues to do all of this, his constituents in Montreal and the local aerospace industry just might say, ‘Montreal, there is a problem.’”

A half dozen members of the government side stood to salute this punch line.

The Stats. The military, seven questions. The environment, four questions. National security and seniors, three questions each. Health care, education, the Canada Revenue Agency, Haiti, employment, campaign financing and railways, two questions each. Credit cards, poverty, foreign investment, crime, the aerospace industry, infrastructure and immigration, two questions each.

Peter MacKay, seven answers. Diane Finley, six answers. John Baird, Peter Kent and Tony Clement, three answers each. Denis Lebel, Leona Aglukkaq, Vic Toews, Bev Oda, Pierre Poilievre, Keith Ashfield and Rob Merrifield, two answers each. Jim Flaherty, Brian Jean and Jason Kenney, one answer each.

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  • Patchouli Blessings

    Technically speaking, if Marc Garneau is the Opposition Industry critic, is he still considered a backbencher?

  • gumps

    I wonder when Aaron Wherry is going to stop being such an uptight left of centre pinko

    • tedbetts

      Yeah! I bet he even rides a bicycle!!!!

    • albert

      Gawd! Where would the 'gumps', of this country be without 40 year old revived, Don Cherryisms to quote?

  • http://dougsamu.wordpress.com dougrogers

    Mr Speaker! Respectfully, Mr Garneau has flown the real thing, not a simulation.

    • NOT a subscriber

      And he was the "pilot" of which craft?

      • http://dougsamu.wordpress.com dougrogers

        I see subtle metaphor is not a strength for you. Perhaps I should have said 'flown in'.

        Mr Garneau who has had his hands on the real hardware of the aeropsace industry is belittled by purveyors of fantasy planes, fliers of simulations, is belittled by men who wrap themselves in the flag whereas the real flag put Mr Garneau far above us all and he is humble for it.

        • NOT a subscriber

          His biography is certainly impressive.

          • MostlyCivil

            I'm guessing you didn't get into space camp…

    • bennji1977

      That means he must be educated, an elitist, and thus worthy of Conservative scorn and ridicule.

      Thankfullly, we have Mr. Gary Goodyear responsible for our science and technology agenda.

      Phwew!

      • Jan

        Expertise has a liberal bias, don'cha know.

    • TJCook

      "Mr Speaker! Respectfully, Mr Garneau has flown the real thing, not a simulation."

      To be fair, there's a good chance that the F-35 will cost more than a Space Shuttle.

      • http://dougsamu.wordpress.com dougrogers

        Penny-wise, pound-foolish.

        • David_M.

          Where was the penny wise part?

          • Reverend_Blair

            He was that evil clown telling MacKay what to say.

        • tedbetts

          If it was only poud-foolish and not billions and billions and billions of them.

  • Richard_S_Argent

    I think that sound you just heard might be the final nail in the coffin that is/was Mackay's leadership aspirations.

  • Emily

    'Later, “laughing maniacally,” he apparently decided at one point to see if he could successfully fly underneath the Brooklyn Bridge.

    What, if anything, to make of this?'

    Our 'defence minister' has ten year olds mind.

    • Leo

      Maybe that is what the women find so attractive?

      • Emily

        Our constantly-engaged but never married Defmin?

        Hardly

        • Patchouli Blessings

          He loves being in love!

          • Jenn_

            I've forgotten to follow MacKay's love life in recent months. Is he still engaged to, umm, that woman that worked somewhere? CTV, maybe? Help me out, would you?

          • Emily

            Nope, another one bit the dust.

            Last we saw of him was at some 'patriot love' party with an unknown young beauty queen on his arm.

            She may already be history as well.

  • Michel Boucher

    Of course, having no actual information to impart, he resorted to belittling the member opposite. This is sadly too often the case with this government.

  • Crit_Reasoning

    Who among us would not be tempted to buzz major landmarks and attempt crazy manoeuvres when "trying out" a cutting-edge military-grade flight simulator?

    • Emily

      A DefMin looking to spend $21B?

      • Crit_Reasoning

        Wherry suggested that "the uptight amongst us might suggest this betrays a certain lack of seriousness", followed by some amusing tongue-in-cheekery about how it might have been "due diligence".

        Personally, I agree with Wherry that one would have to humourless to the point of uptightness to suggest that the minister's flight simulator joyride is anything more than a trivial-yet-entertaining anecdote. Untrained civilians are allowed to have fun when sitting at a flight simulator for a few minutes.

        • Jan

          Maybe we could buy a simulator for MacKay and Clement to play on while we get on with the boring and tedious task of holding a competative bid.

          • Crit_Reasoning

            Has Ignatieff managed to convince Liberal senator Colin Kenny that a competitive bidding process is needed?

            After all, having served as chair of the Senate’s National Security and Defence Committee for eight years, Sen. Kenny has more experience in military procurement than any other Liberal in the upper and lower houses, so you'd think that Ignatieff would want to consider his opinion on this matter:
            http://fullcomment.nationalpost.com/2010/10/29/do…

          • MostlyCivil

            "Has Ignatieff managed to convince Liberal senator Colin Kenny that a competitive bidding process is needed?"

            He doesn't need to. Mr Kenny is welcome to his opinion, as are all the senators. I'm sure that his input is welcome within the current opposition structure. There was a time, not so long ago, when it was not an issue when members of a party disagreed with the leader. Now? While there may well be disagreements, it seems a combination of the political attack machinery on all sides and a media keen to find division work together to drive any dissenting views underground. See: "Fly Emirates Air" on a ministerial ball cap, or any blog post or tweet on any side.

            That said, I suspect, from what I've read, the Liberals are more annoyed about the process than the end result. If the F35 is, indeed, the best choice, then why not throw the process open, show the details and the costs, and bring in the Lockheed martin guys to hold their own trade fair and demonstrate why dropping these billions is a good move?

            It would be far simpler to let the choice withstand public scrutiny than to continually attack questions with responses of "you want our troops to fight with slingshots" rhetoric.

          • Crit_Reasoning

            There was a time, not so long ago, when it was not an issue when members of a party disagreed with the leader.

            I agree that disagreements within parties tend to be distorted by the media, and driven underground in response to partisan political attacks.

            Still, it's worth paying attention to the fact that Senator Kenny, who has by far the most experience with defense purchases of anyone in the Liberal caucus, is 180 degrees removed from the Liberal leader on the question of a competitive bidding process.
            http://colinkenny.ca/en/p101197

            I suspect, from what I've read, the Liberals are more annoyed about the process than the end result.

            Perhaps, but why all the repetitious rhetoric about "fighter jets instead of education and home care"? If the Liberals realize that the same decision would have likely have been reached regardless of process, for not a penny less, then why pretend it's a trade-off between fighter jets and expanded social programs? It's hard not to suspect that the Liberal position is motivated as much by political expediency as by genuine reservations about process.

            It would be far simpler to let the choice withstand public scrutiny than to continually attack questions with responses of "you want our troops to fight with slingshots" rhetoric.

            Some of the rhetoric from the government side has been abysmal, and neither the government nor DND/CF have been particularly effective in communicating the rationale for the fighter jet purchase. That said, I think a bidding process at this point would essentially be a PR gimmick–just for show, rather than a means of providing genuine public scrutiny.

            It's too bad that neither the Government nor the Opposition seem interested in having an honest, open, rhetoric-free discussion about this, because public scrutiny is always needed for purchases of this magnitude.

          • danby

            It's too bad that neither the Government nor the Opposition seem interested in having an honest, open, rhetoric-free discussion….

            I think this applies to just about every issue. The last one interested in having a discussion was when Stephane Dion challenged Mr Harper to debate the Green Shift. Of course Mr Harper saw no political advantage in doing that, and the rest is history.
            Nowadays, political posturing has replaced meaningful debate – in both the government and in the opposition- and I don't expect that to change anytime soon.

          • ARX

            One part that bugs me about what Senator Kenny wrote was that since the JSF is the only Fifth Generation fighter we can buy, there's no point in having an open bidding process. Maybe I'm misunderstanding the bidding process Ignatieff and the Liberals have been advancing, but it seemed to me as a necessary part of any fair and open bidding process, we'd have to have a clear objective and purpose for our air force, so then we can get a real and fair test to the question of do we actually need a Fifth Generation fighter to meet our defence needs and satisfy our air force's operational objectives and all that. Maybe I've missed the defence reports, but I for one would like to see how a 5th Gen vs 4.5 Gen analysis plays out in regards to which type of plane best meets our actual military needs at the best price.

          • Shamwari

            I think you've picked up on the key issue at the centre of this debate – namely, what is the requirement? I've read Senator Kenny's views, but he is making the case for the F35 purchase based on the fact that Canada needs a fifth generation fighter.

            That assumption is a huge one and nothing that the Government has revealed, openly or via leaks, shows that they fully grasp the total system needed to field a fifth generation capability. One example: to be 'stealthy' the airframe will need to rely on sensor and target acquisition data from multiple external sources to avoid 'lighting up' its own systems. Nothing has been mentioned about how Canada is going field such a complex systems architecture anywhere, never mind the Arctic, which poses a unique set of communications challenges.

            Another example: the Government are telling us we need the capability to cover the length and breadth of Canada and we are going to do it with essentially two squadrons (not all 65 airframes will be available for this task all the time). Lets be generous and say that Canada has world-beating airframe (and aircrew) availability statistics and there are always 48 F35s available. Really? Anywhere in Canada in the context of the sort of combat ratios Russia can generate in its favour (after all, we keep being told we need the capability to match them)? With a single engine aircraft? What aircraft are going to protect the lumbering tankers that have to be in the air to keep our single-engine super-machines flying and fighting? Where are these tankers?

            Not saying it can't be done – I'm certainly no expert. But it would be good if someone could define the requirement and explain why the most capable 4.5G aircraft in the world, or a Typhoon perhaps, couldn't meet the requirement better – cheaper – and with more airframes for the money.

          • Honest Iago

            I'm always amazed how opposing partisans are willing to elevate someone from the other team when it suits their purpose.

            No doubt Senator Kenny speaks with some degree of authority with respect to military policy in Canada, but to say that he has "by far the most experience with defense purchases of anyone in the Liberal caucus" is patently false.

            He doesn't even have the most experience with defence purchases in the Liberal Senate caucus, as I'd imagine that Senator Eggleton, who actually served for 5 years as the Minister of National Defence probably understands the military procurement process quite well.

          • Crit_Reasoning

            Thanks for reminding me that Senator Art Eggleton was defence minister when Canada became a participant in the JSF program in 1997, and when Lockheed Martin won the U.S.-led competitive process in 2001.

            Minister Eggleton travelled to Washington in February 2002 to sign on to a deal with U.S. defence secretary Donald Rumsfeld that ensured Canada was a partner in the joint strike force.

            He has been conspicuously silent on the F-35 issue in recent months. I suspect he agrees with his colleague Senator Kenny.

          • Honest Iago

            Fascinating, but you'll at least concede that you misled this board with your comment about Senators with "by far the most experience with defense purchases of anyone in the Liberal caucus"?

            As for the rest, it's simply untrue, and to purposefully confuse a Memorandum of Understanding (which the previous Liberal government certainly did do) with an untendered and sole-sourced contract to actually buy the F35s represents a pathological unwillingness to engage in honest debate. They're simply not the same thing at all.

            The final straw of implying that Senator Eggleton agrees with your assertions simply because he hasn't said anything to deny it, rather than because he's been a little busy working to help disabled Nortel workers who have been abandoned by the Conservative gov't as they're about the lose everything they have, is probably my favourite part of your reply, and for that, I offer my thanks for the chuckle.

          • Crit_Reasoning

            I agree that Sen. Eggleton's five years as defence minister trumps Sen. Kenny's eight years as chair of the Senate’s National Security and Defence Committee. I had forgotten about Sen. Eggleton, which is why I thanked you for reminding me.

            to purposefully confuse a MOU with an untendered and sole-sourced contract to actually buy the F35s…

            When the heck did I do that? Try reading what I actually wrote, instead of trying to pick a fight with me.

            And yes, given Sen. Eggleton's direct experience with the JSF process, I find it more than a little odd that he has chosen not to weigh in on the F35 debate that is currently raging in the lower house. I said that I suspect he agrees with his colleague Sen. Kenny. The point of saying I suspect is to make it clear that this is a personal hunch, nothing more. Please try to be more civil and less combative in your reply.

        • http://dougsamu.wordpress.com dougrogers

          I really don't object to having a bit of fun. Probably would do the same. Still, the obsfucation, accusations, belittlement, and fabrications are the problem.

    • http://dougsamu.wordpress.com dougrogers

      There is also a simulator of Question Period, you know, where they try out various questions and answers to see which ones will fly.

      • tedbetts

        Our current government is still in test flight/simulator mode.

    • Jan

      If you did, wouldn't you want to keep it to yourselves, if you wanted to be taken seriously. Two Ministers, in charge of the largest military purchase in the country's history, I would think would want to be taken seriously. Mind you, with the PM doing bad covers of Rolling Stones songs, who knows what the rules are anymore.

      • http://twitter.com/jonatwitan @jonatwitan

        Well, to begin, I think "the rules" do not involved some archaic idea of seriousness that allows no room for a sense of humour and the ability to have fun.

    • ARX

      Agreed, seeing as how pretty much anyone short of an experienced pilot would have little of substance to offer about the experience beyond gushing about how fun/exciting/realistic the simulation is, and how marvellously the plane flies, why not have a bit a fun? That said, as PR stunts go, this was a missed opportunity; he really should have asked for a scenario where he could shoot down some Russian bombers menacing the Arctic.

    • Dave

      Sounds like something a terrorist would do. How can we be sure Peter Mackay isn't a terrorist?

  • Bobby Wonderful

    On another topic, where's Fatino? Has nobody told him the peek-a-boo campaign is over. Are they hiding him?

    • TJCook

      Well they weren't hiding him until you decided to subject him to these hurtful attacks.

      Really, I think we can all agree that you have presented the poor Mr. Fantino with nothing but hate crimes designed to destroy him. But he will perservere, even triumph, from his perch on the cross.

    • tedbetts

      Oh, he came out of hiding long enough to accuse the Liberals of being Nazis and then, having shown Canada exactly why the Conservatives kept him hidden away, was quickly shoved back out of camera and microphone range.

    • Phil_King

      "Are they hiding him?"

      Wouldn't you? LOL

      They wanted the riding and went with the guy they could find who would win it, but other than that I wouldn't expect to see too much of Fantino until they get him house-broken.

  • kcm

    Seemingly, Pugliese is not required bed-time reading for our DM ; apparently Biggles is.

    • kcm

      Oh dear, no-one read Biggles anymore? Mackay is definitely a Biggles character ; googles on, muffler wrapped tightly around his neck, trying to get that 21st centuary Camel under that damn bridge – tally ho chaps!

    • harebell

      Biggles and Algie, pip pip and tally ho, last one with their trousers down gets a crumpet,
      So Clement is Algies to MacKay's Biggles, figures

  • kcm

    'That claim is a total fabrication," says Alan Williams, who as DND's assistant deputy minister for matériel was a driving force behind Canadian participation in the JSF program. "We didn't play any role in selecting the JSF. We didn't even know who would win. We watched the press conference on TV like the rest of the public."

    DND briefing notes obtained by the Citizen make clear that Canada's participation in the JSF program was directed at understanding aircraft technology and improving the chances of Canadian industry obtaining contracts. There is no mention of Canada having any role in selecting the winning fighter.

    Other DND documents note that Canada's requirements for a new fighter weren't drawn up until early 2010, raising the question of how Canada could have selected the F-35 as the plane it wanted back in 2001.'

    Mackay isn't even a plausible liar…the man's a joke.

    Read more: http://www.ottawacitizen.com/technology/Selling+C…

    • Jan

      He has a habit of repeating things that are not true. Isn't that what Fantino refers to as the 'Hitler Theory'.

    • ARX

      Very interesting series of articles.

      From what I've read, many procurements have a preferred supplier from the outset, and the performance/specs/conditions are usually torqued to favour the preferred equipment, so that an outwardly open and fair process will – surprise – deem the preferred choice as the best option to meet the military's requirements. I wonder why the government didn't think it worthwhile to have a Defence policy analysis report (or whatever it's officially called) that could convincingly demonstrate that the JSF was the right fighter (even if that proof had to be based on suspect rationale), as opposed to this puzzling approach by MacKay and his Cabinet colleagues.

      • kcm

        Because they're incompetent.

        • kcm

          Or more likely complacent – or both.

  • gottabesaid

    This is getting old, the 'why can't the opposition stop asking questions and start supporting the troops?' act. The Liberals asked questions that were on the minds of a lot of folks after reading those Citizen articles. It's not playing politics, it's a $21 billion dollar contract! Enough B.S.

  • danby

    For such a high flyer, Peter MacKay sure has a bad altitude.

  • chet

    The Liberals are catering to their far left base, which explains the raptureous support from the usual far leftists here.

    While the Liberals and their supporters try to drape their opposition to this or that high minded ideal,

    the average Canadian is able to discern that the Liberals are not, apparently, able to muster high minded ideals that end up being in favour of our troops. Always against.

    Now, let us hear again about the poor poor taliban prisoners (the one's trying to kill our brave troops), let us hear the shouting from the rooftops, liberals support for THEM.

    Apparently trying to muster some semblance of understanding how difficult it is for our troops in a war zone, to sedulously foster the rights of those butchering children and killing your brothers in arms, is just too difficult. The high mindedness never seems to get to that point.

    • Richard_S_Argent

      "far left base"?

      Oh biff, you kill me! I love that you don't believe a single word of what you write, yet you keep plugging away.

      • Jenn_

        Yeah, as if he believes that overpaying for some necessary equipment somehow helps the troops! But at least he keeps the fantasy alive, unlike CATS who has given up and admits to it being all about the polls.

      • kcm

        The Biffer could be one hell of an actor, but I'm no longer sure he doesn't believe it…no one could be that thoroughly obtuse.

        • MostlyCivil

          I'm going to call him "chiff" from now on. Am I missing any other handles?

          • kcm

            Kody seems to have been the original…dropped i think when Wells punted him into touch.

    • chet

      - alleging our troops engage in "torture" of taliban, check

      - overt support for convicted terrorist who killed allied troops and was training to kill ours, check

      - vociferous opposition to purchase of state of the art planes that will place our troops in a competitive advantage against adversaries and hence help save their lives, check

      - And finally, swarming like hornets to attack those who dare to point out this obvious pattern, check

      Welcome to today's "tolerant progressive left".

      • gottabesaid

        "vociferous opposition to purchase of state of the art planes that will place our troops in a competitive advantage against adversaries and hence help save their lives, check"

        Someday, chet, I hope you'll recognize the difference between partisan rhetoric (whether it's your own party's or another party) and legitimate questions. Read the Citizen stories. If you're a reasonable person, you'll come away with some reasonable questions and concerns of your own. If you're a partisan hack, well, you'll just keep wrapping yourself in the flag.

        It's not about opposing the deal, either… it's about ensuring we're getting the best equipment at the best price.

        • chet

          Ahh yes, funny how partisanship only applies to conservative supporters, never liberals.

          Find me a single instance where this blog and the regular commenters openly supported anything Harper did.

          Anything.

          You can't, because it doesn't happen.

          Why?

          Because the left is reflexively anti-Harper, on every issue.

          Partisanship? The left wrote the book on it.

          • Richard_S_Argent

            (he was talking about the articles in the Citizen chiff, not anyone on these boards)

            and just for you – I openly supported the Conservatives decision to quash the Potash deal. I also like the TFSAs.

            so there ;P

          • gottabesaid

            'Ahh yes, funny how partisanship only applies to conservative supporters, never liberals.'

            I didn't say that. Read my post again. Also, I don't believe Conservatives have the market cornered on BS, so I'm unlikely to suggest such a thing.

            'Find me a single instance where this blog and the regular commenters openly supported anything Harper did.'

            You do all the time. So does hollinm. Judge Roy Bean. CanadianSense. Bergkamp. You guys do it all the time. In fact, I at one time was a staunch opponent of the F35 purchase, but you righties managed to give me second thoughts. Still not sold on it though (and, again, I advise you to read the Citizen story… it's not Liberal made-up crap, it's legit).

            'The left is reflexively anti-Harper, on every issue.'

            Well, Harper is a right-wing politician, so it kinda stands to reason… sort of like how you reflexively denounce anything that comes out of the mouth of (insert Liberal or NDP politician here). Don't you think it's a bit silly to criticize somebody for doing the same thing you do, just from a different side of the political spectrum?

            You took me on a tangent again, chet, damn you.

      • harebell

        - alleging that the government was lieing and hiding its role in turning over of detainees to our allies who tortured them. See not our troops?

        - support for due process of law and opposition to unconstitutional legal manoeverings that defied every recognised Western standard of fairness. PS he wasn't convicted until after this unlawful trial process had run its course, I believe the objections preceded his "conviction." Details, details, details sunshine.

        - opposition to ignoring standard and well tested administrative procedures for ensuring best value for the best product. This also reduces favouritism and opportunities for corruption

        Today's moderates, observing and pointing out the disingenuous nature of modern tories and extreme rightwingers for whom dogma outweighs facts and reason.

        • chet

          Yes, yes, the high minded ideals I was referring to.

          Now,

          care to find me an example on this blog where high minded ideals didn't favour the terrorists but rather favoured our troop's position?

          Anyone care to look into the reason for geneva conventions which require military uniforms? No, of course not. That particular "rule of law" that doesn't work out so well for the left's terrorist friends never enters the equation.

          • harebell

            Behave yourself

            Geneva conventions were totally disregarded by the US in Afghanistan, It was seen as expedient by the Bush crew to do away with what separated us from the Taliban and filth like them. Trial without jury, redesignating folk as below the need for proper legal mechanisms and torture made all us become closer to them than the ideas that made us better than them. This is what lost us the moral high ground.
            It's not high minded to believe that how we are different from them is what makes them hate us. Folk like you and the modern right are what makes us more like them everyday, why because law, equal treatment and rights means nothing to you.
            Osama bin chet sounds about right

      • BCer in Mtl

        Obligatory 'Welcome to today's "tolerant progressive left" ' at the end of the post, check.

  • Mike T.

    Using simulators to fly planes into landmarks?

    Good thing the guy isn't muslim – CSIS would have been on his doorstep when he got home.

  • canon70

    It's ironic that Mr. MacKay claims his undying support for Canadian Forces at the same time the group "Trial Lawyers for Veterans” has to help wounded soldiers access benefits from the federal government. Will he support the Liberals’ private members bill to put the veterans’ ombudsman office on par with the auditor general or the privacy commissioner?

  • Judge Roy Bean

    My, my, the pinkos on the left certainly have their knives out for the Conservatives, huh, Wherry. In my experience there isn't a politician in this country, in any party, who is honourable enough to actually represent the people over their own greed and lust for power. Keep deluging yourself Mr. Wherry that a socialist utopia is the way to go. Hail Mommy Government. Never has Fox News North been needed more. Todays media thinks it is their gawd-given right to pollute the 'news'.

    • harebell

      Trying to move the Overton window further into extreme right territory again hey Bean?
      The current state of the far right utopia in the USA is all any observer needs to see where that leads, but you keep plucking that chicken.

    • Richard_S_Argent

      Mr. Cherry I presume?

  • HarveyMushman

    Aside from the usual childish banter in Question Period that this article documents…

    What exactly does the Speaker of the House actually do…if anything? It seems to me that if he's supposed to be moderating the discussion and keeping it civil…he either isn't doing his job or his position is useless.

    • Voice of tReason

      I just wish the speaker would force the ministers to actually ANSWER THE DAMN QUESTION

  • T Smith

    This article epitomizes the feeling "who gives a damn?"

    This exactly what's wrong with journalism right now: lazy columnists sitting on their couch waiting fror some quasi controversy to pop up then pooping their drawers about nothing.

    Go interview someone or read some wikileaks, Wherry. This isn't reporting.

  • http://www.linkedin.com/companies/merger-law-associates-ltd. Julius C.

    Perhaps I could lend him my son's PS3 to practice…

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