Beyond The Commons

Aaron Wherry covers all the goings-on in and around Parliament Hill. Follow Aaron on Twitter: @aaronwherry

Categories: Beyond The Commons, Capital Read

How we talk about the government's collecting of money

by Aaron Wherry on Saturday, December 18, 2010 10:37am - 78 Comments

Followers of the English language may note that if, in the government’s estimation, there is no difference between a “copyright levy“—collected by the government from those who make a specific purchase for use toward to a specific purpose—and a “tax,” there would seem consequently to be even less room to claim a difference between an “airport user fee” and a “tax.”

Tags: air tax, airport, copyright, copyright levy, iPod, iPod tax, tax, taxation, taxes, user fee

More by Aaron Wherry

chet

The difference is this:

the public clearly appreaciates the specific governmental role/cost to providing security at our airports. It's a cost all reasonable travellers are willing to bear. Which is why no political hay could be made out of it.

A "levy" on ipod sales is seen as a widespread general cash grab. Something the liberals are notoriously good at, and something the public will naturally be reflexively against.

Which is why our top liberal apologist Wherry has scrambled to make two defensive posts on it, in short order.

Wherry should be scrambling. So should his Liberal friends.

Matlock

Liberal friends such as CPC MP Gary Schellenberger?

chet

The overwhelming majority to CPC voted against it.

The Liberals, and the NDP voted for it.

Folks can say "the CPC" supported this.

But those folks would be dishonest.

I suspect said disohonesty wont stop them though.

Let us watch and enjoy.

Richard_S_Argent

Wait, are you talking about the vote in committee? the one that was 5-5 (and the Conservative chair voting in favour to make it 6-5).

I see what you think you're doing there.
Matlock

Well, Gerard Kennedy's sole musings about raising the GST have been enough evidence for you in the past to state the Liberals would raise the GST,

so based on your precedent one Conservative voting in favour of an Ipod tax must mean that the CPC favours the Ipod tax.

You can't have it both ways, biff.

Richard_S_Argent

Look everyone – chiff thinks he's gotta winner! I do love when he winds up with full steam – it's a sight to behold!

(meanwhile, back in normalsville, the notion that the gov't would tack on a 40% tax on electronic devices is rightfully laughed off – nothing more than pathetic fearmongering from the government…again)

TJCook

But we've learned a lesson, at least: it's not a tax when chet believes that Canadians will be happy to pay it.

Or possibly: it's not a tax when the CPC damn well says it's not a tax.

Yeah. The latter.

chet

Actually,

what I said….is what I said.

Though I appreciate it's much easier to attack a highly distorted and misleading version of what I said, rather than the true point I was making….so have at er.

Richard_S_Argent

Oh chiff, been taking notes from Dennis I see…claiming that nobody understands you when they clearly do.
TJCook

The hard part is hearing them from way up there on the cross :)
MostlyCivil

I have to say, I'm glad to see that "chiff" is sticking..

dave

the public clearly appreaciates the specific governmental role/cost to providing security at our airports. It's a cost all reasonable travellers are willing to bear.

No. Most travellers get rather ticked when their $139 each way flight has another $144 in "user fees + taxes". In fact, I seem to recall the CPC being rather annoyed at this when the Liberals were in power.

Gayle

Yup.

But if you say otherwise enough times it magically becomes true. This is the strategy biff employs on behalf of the Conservative Party of Canada.

Thwim

Sorry, you're wrong. I'm part of the public, and I disagree with your first statement. Therefore, the public does NOT clearly appreciate the specific governmental role/cost to providing security at our airports.

So.. what's the difference again? You get upset that the government is making you pay to support artists. I get upset that the government is making me pay to make my travel much more inconvenient for very little gain in safety.

Either way, if one is a tax, so is the other. Whether you agree with the use it's put to makes no difference unless you're a hypocrite.
LdKitchenersOwn

A "levy" on ipod sales is seen as a widespread general cash grab

Sure, OK, but a levy on iPod sales is also opposed by the Liberal Party. Voting to let something out of committee doesn't mean you support every word of it (which would seem to be indicated by the Tory chair voting to break the tie IN FAVOUR of letting this out of committee).

Did you just do all of your complaining here and in Wherry's last post without even read his link to the Liberals categorically rejecting (in Wherry's words form his last post) and iPod levy?

“The Liberal Party does not support the iPod levy. It is not sustainable in a world of changing technology, and is unpopular with consumers,” said Marc Garneau, Liberal Industry, Science and Technology Critic. What part of that was unclear?
Katherine

Using airports is more necessary to most people than purchasing an iPod and, unlike purchasing an iPod, it isn't a one-time purchase, and airport fees/airport taxes for one trip can cost more than the total price of an iPod. So on the whole, I find airport fees more irritating.

And I don't appreciate the costs of airport security, given that a lot of what's done is not particularly useful in providing security anyway.

Emily

Lately it's all in how you frame it. A user fee IS a tax, but the wording allows people to think they have some choice in the matter when they don't.

When we went from a hidden tax to an open one… with the GST…the commotion over the very same tax we'd always paid, meant they had to disguise it in another way. So now it's 'user fees.'

I see the word 'levy' has now been dredged up for the same purpose.
chet

So I encourage all Liberal apologists out there,

when the time comes to defend why Sally, Fred and Theresa, and all of their friends and parents who enjoy their ipods, and who suddenly realize they have to pay more out of their already heavily taxed income…

to proclaim….

…."but you have to pay to be safe from terrorists at airports, what's the difference?"

Canadians will get a real flavour from today's statist left, where all "levies"/taxes are created equal, and where they're all equally welcome.

Emily

it's too early for eggnog, chet.

chet

It's never too early for eggnog ;)

Emily

LOL apparently not.

TJCook

chet, "statist left" is at least a month out of date. The current slur is "parasitic left."

Do try to keep up.

Dave

Where does that leave "coalition of socialists and separatists"?

chet

Did somebody here refer to the "parasitic left"? Alrighty then here you go:

"George Monbiot – Longing No Longer!
Now is the time at SDA when we juxtapose!

George Monbiot, February 2005 – "Winter is no longer the great grey longing of my childhood. The freezes this country suffered in 1982 and 1963 are – unless the Gulf Stream stops – unlikely to recur."

Daily Mail, December 2010 – Coldest December since records began as temperatures plummet to minus 10C bringing travel chaos across Britain"

Don't ya love when an entire belief system ("ecosocialism") comes crumbling down….and IT'S ALL ON RECORD for all to see?

The parasites will have to move on to another host, the "environment" has succumbed to its prey.

chet

Just waiting for the shores of NY city to be swept over with water…..any minute now…

gotta love the hysterical predictions made ten fifteen years ago….along with the now defunct hockey stick graph….

good times…good times…

Emily

Which just shows you haven't understood one word about climate change since the initial reports.

chet

Oh you mean the revised meme that,

whatever happens, coolling, warming, a bit of each,

its all about AGW.

Golden I tell ya, pure golden.
Emily

No, it's never been revised, in spite of your best efforts to do so.

LA just broke their heat record, and so did Nunavut apparently….meanwhile Europe is snowed in.

Just like the scientists said.
Gayle

He;s not trying to understand. He's trying to misinform.
chet

"it's never been revised" "he's trying to misinform"

So the term "global warming" wasn't a term that was used before it became "climate change"?

And Monbiot didn't predict (as did the "correct community") that Europe would no longer see harsh winters?

And predictions weren't made 15 years or so ago, that our coastal cities would be starting to flood due to melting ice caps (woops there's that inference of warming again)?

Interesting.

What other aspects of history shall we erase to accomodate the utter failings of this AGW farce?
Emily

Yes the term global warming is still in use, so is climate change because one leads to the other…it's simple English you know, not hard to understand.

As to Monbiot he's a columnist not a scientist.

Yes, predictions were made about flooding….and many nations are being flooded. Please keep up.
LdKitchenersOwn

And predictions weren't made 15 years or so ago, that our coastal cities would be starting to flood due to melting ice caps

Can you point to a single prediction from 15 years ago that said that this would start happening within 15 years???

LdKitchenersOwn

“The Liberal Party does not support the iPod levy. It is not sustainable in a world of changing technology, and is unpopular with consumers,” said Marc Garneau, Liberal Industry, Science and Technology Critic.

chet

I stand corrected by the "progressive wasps" gaurding the nest.

Apparantly Canadians will love to be taxed on their ipods.

A single CPC is to be treated as if all voted that way.

And Iggy is on the verge of taking back the government…..and various other sundry items of self soothing.

In the meantime, let us sit back and enjoy the CPC spending some of the massive warchest obtained from its massive donors list, on these ads.

Richard_S_Argent

The question chiff, is at what level? You're being purposefully vague about that.

$75? Absurd. Nobody in their right minds would support that.
$5? To help pay musicians who lose royalties due to illegal downloading? I'm *totally* okay with that.

But you go ahead and try to paint everyone but the CPC as money-grubbing robber-barons…it does seem to please you so.

chet

Tell you what,

why don't you and all of your friends, and anybody else out there who is so inclined, go out and support some musicians with your own donations,

and stop telling the rest of us Canadians that we have to.

We're all aware of the left's proclivity with being "OKAY" with the government taking other people's money.

Richard_S_Argent

I do, chet…I do.

So $5 is a bridge too far for you eh? Good to know.

(or do you, as I suspect, not give a tinker's damn about this and only think it's a political winner and that's why you're brimming with faux populist outrage?)

chet

Of course you think not wanting to pay more taxes is fake.

Delitimizing the other side's position, beliefs ect is the "progressive's" stock in trade.

The great thing about attacking the other side" MOTIVES is that the other side can never defend it. You've ascribed a motive to me, and that is that.

Of course all those who really do resent the increase, can read this and say "but I don't wan't to pay it, are you also questioning my motives?"

The left in the US slimed the tea party movement somthing terrrible: racist, rednecks, ect. How could they possibliy legitimately and with bona fides want more limited government.

That turned our really well for the Dems didn't it.

Attacking motives is a short term feel good measure for the attacker. Eventually reality catches up.

In the meantime, contiunue with your beliefs that not wanting the increased levy must, just must lack bona fides.
Emily

Well apparently somebody has now started the American Rednecks as a political party to have more legitimacy than the tea partiers…..so the Dems have been right all the time.

I've never met a person before who's against progress….well, other than the Amish….you're the first.

MostlyCivil

Chiff, are you a closet socialist? You think that music should be free, and you think Canadians are unwilling to pay people for honest labour?

Musicians are workers, too. They deserve to be paid for thei work. Especially with all the unreported crimes like illegal downloading. See, that $5 on your ipod sale is being tough on crime. That's why the committee chair voted in favour.

A_logician

That's one way to be tough on unreported crime. Building prisons is apparently the one favoured by the CPC, however.
http://twitter.com/jonatwitan @jonatwitan

Well, I may as well…

I actually (mostly) agree with Chet (Biff?), though I am perhaps not as (passionate/heated/inflamed/eloquent) about this issue. That being said, I actually obtain all of my music digitally by paying for it. In fact, the transition of music to the digital world has had two distinct effects on my own habits of purchasing music: 1) I purchase more (and more regularly, I am a member on one of these sites that allows you a monthly subscription which gives you x amount of downloads); and 2) I am aware of more and purchase more independent stuff.

So, I don't know how typical I am, and to be honest I don't know much about the group of artists that lobbied the government for this "tax" (as Wherry demonstrated it clearly is), but I know mainstream music has been hit hard by all the less than honest downloading, but I also suspect that independent music artists are doing better than ever.

Anyway, all that to say that I am willing to pay for artists hard labour, and I don't think music should be free, certainly they deserve to be paid for their work. But also certainly the way is not to simply "levy" other items in order to make up their perceived shortfall. Is my daughter, who will be starting school in a few years, going to be contributing to the salaries of Canadian authors when she buys her loose leaf for school? (Of course, I will be buying the paper, but you get the picture).
Mike T.

but I also suspect that independent music artists are doing better than ever.

***

A common misconception. On the off chance you can use new media to your advantage moreso than the hundreds of other new independent music artists doing the same, it's the difference between, say, a profit margin of $10 a month and $18 a month. And the next level that all these independent artists would hope to move on to is being gutted without album sales to rely on. I'm sure a band (especially a young band) feels like it's going places when it puts up a youtube, but its still more people competing for less money.

As for the blank media levy, it's always been a bit of a kludge solution, partly for the reasons you describe. But it's a relatively small (much smaller than the CPC made it out to be, natch) amount imposed on luxury items to create a fairly practical solution.

Jenn_

Wait a minute, Chet. So you are honestly saying that stealing copyrighted material is supported by the Conservative Party of Canada? Or what did you mean by "support some musicians with your own donations"?

So if I go into the store and steal, I don't know, jet engines, will that be fine, too?

Leo

AARON – Will Macleans be taking a stand on this? Scary stuff!!!!

Maclean’s no longer worthy of public funding, says senator

A Canadian senator is asking the federal government to revoke federal subsidies to Maclean’s magazine over an article on university enrolment that focused on Asian-Canadian students.
http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/politics/macl…
NorthernPoV

As I said once before, replying to Chet (Biff or chiff ;-) is eerily similar to disturbing the bears at the dump. And about as worthwhile.
That said ….
So the airport fee is a GOOD tax but… seeing as dear leader has proclaimed that all taxes are BAD we must continue to insist it is not a tax but a fee that all reasonable travelers eagerly pay. But that iPod fee is bad so we must call it a tax and as all taxes are bad …… oh never mind – just send the CPC some $$ so they can stop the coalition iPod tax on everything.

oh and when you can't win an argument about taxes, try to change the subject to another fantasy – the plot to take over the world via climate change activism!!

chet

How do you know if you're a leftist?

Where you believe the moral imperative for the government helping out musicians is at least as great as, or greater,

than stopping men, women and children from dying a horrid firey death at 30,000 feet.

Emily

That's interesting….I thought the musicians were earning a living…a capitalist good…and I don't know of anyone who's happy about our planes blowing up. US was happy they blew up an Iranian passenger plane though.

And they're happy to drop bombs on Iraqis and Afghans and Pakistanis, Yemens etc from 30,000 ft

http://intensedebate.com/people/Ottawa_Centrist Ottawa_Centrist

I prefer chex.

NorthernPoV

OK, but wasn't that a breakfast cereal?

TwoYen

Wherry is right on one point. The copyright levy is a tax.

But, it's a dumb tax. It forces people like me who do not download music to pay a tax on various memory hardware I buy to save my personal photos on and then distributes the money to Canadian artists despite the fact that most music that is downloaded is by artists from the USA, UK, etc.

It would be far more cost efficient to drop the levy and just give Canadian artists a subsidy. I may not like subsidies, but I dislike inefficient taxes even more.

Mike T.

If you don't like the copyright levy/tax for the reason that isn't directly connected to those downloading media, a subsidy from general revenue would be even less efficient, wouldn't it?

chet

Families who care for relatives,

Musicians,

We can make that list keep going and going,

and the statists certainly intend to. Government is here to "help"….everyone who needs it.

Focus on the need, raise taxes to support that need, and presto,

you've got bigger government and higher taxes.

While the leftists here in N. America are still believing in the possiblity of socialist utopia, the Europeans who realized their roads to hell were paved with good intentions are now having to slash and burn.

Harper's got it right, though, as most Canadians appreciate.

Matlock

However, free markets cannot exist

without the enforcement of property rights. Without property rights, we have anarchy. Milton Friedman advises this as a proper role of government.

The Harper

government

has no interest in enforcing the property rights of musicians. If they produce a song, they should be entitled to the proceeds from it. Bill C-32 has languished at first reading since it was introduced (the government decides when a bill proceeds to second reading, NOT the opposition)

Face it, the Harper government has no real interest in property rights. They dangle bait to hook gullible people like chiff into believing they do,

but they don't.

Welcome to today's true 'statists' – the "Conservative" party, wolves in sheep's clothing.

chet

You know you're a leftist when

opposition to an increased tax or "levy" leads to the sky falling….. "anarchy!!"

Of course if this levy doesn't go through, our system of property rights enshrined in 150 years of common law will crumble before our eyes. Of course.

And if I don't pay an extra "carbon tax" we will all die in a global warming firey inferno.

Taxes are our way to salvation…..

so says today's progressive left.

Matlock

You know you're a leftist when

you feel 'property rights' are meaningless, especially in an increasingly digital society.

If someone produces a product, they should be entitled to compensation for it. Not via taxes (straw man chiff: I disagree with the Ipod levy), but via better enforcement of copyright.

The "Convservative" party does not care about this. They will dangle the bait that is C-32 to convince gullible chiff they care,

but they do not. If they cared, they would move forward with legislation, not let it sit at first reading.

chiff: a statist in denial.

chet

Of course Harper "doesn't care."

If you can point to me one single issue where this blog host or his supportive commenters gave Harper credit for "caring" about any issue, I'd love to see it.

Harper is an evil cold hearted monster who cares about nothing but power…

And we need the benevolent Liberals back, to bring "caring" back to government.

And I'm a statist. Everything I've written about limited government has been a lie.

Yes, I'm well aware of how folks think around here.
Matlock

Harper "doesn't care" about free markets?

And the conditions required for free markets to exist? (protection of property rights)

Wow, today's "Conservative" party truly is that in name only.

It's been said here before, today we have a socially conservative party and two socially liberal parties. Fiscal conservatism has been dead since Paul Martin was finance minister and was looking across the aisle at Preston Manning.

Somewhere, Preston Manning sheds a tear over what his creation has become.

In the mean time, statism is alive and well, thanks to voters like chiff.

chet

Which is why he'll be in power for the forseeable future. While the left peddles their cradle-to-grave nanny state is here to give you everything you need, pablum,

that almost everyone (far left commenters on far left political blogs notithstanding) leads to economic destruction.

Emily

The right prefers to run a Ninny state…where you can cut taxes and go to war, at the same time.

chet

The Liberal party (who "started" the Afghan war for Canada) isn't supposed to be considered a "right" party, though I've argued in the past that Chretien/Martin (as FM) were about as right leaning as today's CPC, and certainly there are a lot of "red tory" conservatives in the Liberal party.

In short, Canada is a lot more right leaning, than the leftists and their friends in the media like to portray.

So I do believe you have a point.

Emily

Well Libs aren't leftists so that argument is dead. The NDP is left, and as it turns out were correct about Afghanistan all along.

Libs are center….which means they use ideas from both the left and the right, and modify them away from the extremes of either pacifism or attacking Iraq

chet

They WERE center.

No longer.

They've ceded that ground to the CPC.

Which is why their base of support exists only in the leftist of left leaning ridings.

And which was why, the Libs taking Winnipeg North was a sign of that progression,

and which is why they won't take an election for a very long time to come.
Emily

They still are center….and Cons are still rightwing.

Which is why after 5 years of trying, Harper still isn't popular
chet

Of course not.

He needs to lose the next election to be "popular".

For the time being, winning successive elections with ever greater seat totals will have to do.
chet

Now the Liberals,

who've lost successive elections with ever dwindling seat totals,

THEY are popular.
Emily

Neither of them are popular chet….which is why no one is bothering with an election
Richard_S_Argent

I'll be sure to tell my friends living in Rosedale that they're a buncha leftists. I'm sure they'll be fascinated to hear that.

It doesn't matter how many times you say it, the Liberals under Ignatieff are decidedly Right-Centre. It's just the way it is…sorry chiff.

(We've certainly come a long way from an article about an iPod levy that the Liberal Industry critic pretty categorically refused to support haven't we?)

Jenn_

Ninny state – I love it.

Emily

LOL feel free to use it anywhere.

Twisted_Mentat

Dear MacLean's,

Please disallow unregistered people from posting as they seem to either:

a) Drag down post quality
b) Spout talking points from the CPC, LPC, and NDP
c) Goad posters into "flamewars"
d) Post and post and post until anyone who has anything of merit to add seem to disengage (turns into anonymous posters).

I believe in free speech, but not speech free of repercussions. Please fix this.

Your subscriber,

Brian

Halo_Override

You rascal. I know you've been around long enough to have met Dennis.
Mike T.

Registered people can be just as ridiculous as unregistered ones…

Besides, Macleans doesn't necessarily want to discourage insane and/or partisan ramblings. As long as the hits keep climbing. Remember, this is the paper that publishes Steyn and "Too Asian."

Richard_S_Argent

Trolling for page hits is a dangerous business. Just ask salon.com what it did for their credibility after the 2008 elections.

Coyne is playing a dangerous game. He may find out the hard way that being waiting room reading material is better than nothing.

Katherine

The rationale for the iPod tax is ridiculous. So even if I buy and pay for music on iTunes, or if I load music from a CD that I have purchased onto my iPod, I still have to pay a surtax on the iPod for "copyrights," despite having already paid the music producers?

That's just an incentive for me to download music for free, if I'm going to be paying fees that assume I did so.

TwoYen

Katherine,

You are absolutely correct. That is why this is such a dumb tax. It will actually discourage peole from paying for music.

http://www.linkedin.com/companies/merger-law-associates-ltd. Julius C.

Pay per use…
Gayle

"(We've certainly come a long way from an article about an iPod levy that the Liberal Industry critic pretty categorically refused to support haven't we?)"

We have come a long way from a story about how to the conservatives a "tax" imposed by the liberals, magically becomes a "levy" when imposed by the conservatives.

But then, taking us off topic is exactly why Chiff comes here, so I guess he got his wish.