Beyond The Commons

Beyond The Commons

Aaron Wherry covers all the goings-on in and around Parliament Hill. Follow Aaron on Twitter: @aaronwherry

'They make it very personal'

by Aaron Wherry on Monday, January 17, 2011 12:21pm - 120 Comments

Linda Diebel surveys the scene five years after Stephen Harper took power.

University of Windsor political scientist MacIvor is pulling her punches. Asked about Stephen Harper’s style, she describes “an unusually unforthcoming government.” Previously, she’s criticized the PM’s “quite remarkable” degree of control and secrecy, with the same blunt, take-no-prisoners approach she adopts for politicians of all stripes … Instead, this time, MacIvor says she’s “become self-censoring on the subject of the Conservatives. Life is too short for so much stress.”

She expects to take lumps for her political opinions. What’s changed with this government is that she says she’s portrayed as “an enemy of the party” and “fair game” for vicious, personal attacks, which fill her inbox. “I should be able to speak my mind on political issues, but I’ve found members of the Conservative party seem to be more sensitive to criticism than other parties,” she says. “They make it very personal.”

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  • Guest

    So…

    Does Professor McIvor think that it's inappropriate for people who disagree with her opinions to voice their disagreement? She feels she can only say what she really thinks if everybody agrees with her?

    Hmm…

    • Be_rad

      Perhaps if you read the post again, you can discern the difference: "She expects to take lumps for her political opinions. What’s changed with this government is that she says she’s portrayed as “an enemy of the party” and “fair game” for vicious, personal attacks, which fill her inbox."

      "Expects to take lumps" vs "vicious personal attacks". Does that help?

      • spod

        Being called an "enemy of the party" hardly seems like a "vicious personal attack". Seems more like "taking a lump". (Or did she want to be called a "friend of the party"?)

        Actually, I would expect that she gets much worse e-mails than that, because there are a lot of sick people out there and the internet brings them out of the woodwork. The question is: what does she have to compare them to? Is there any evidence of her criticizing the Liberals or NDP (and not just criticizing them from the left, either)? I haven't seen any, although it may exist. But I just doubt that she has any grounds for making this comparison. Anyway, neither I nor any of the other conservative partisans I know had heard of this woman until she took to the media to broadcast her awful plight and then Wherry and Kinsella rallied to her allegedly beleaguered cause. So, seriously, I don't think that any conservatives are out to get her. I don't think that hardly any knew or cared who she was. But maybe apathy is a worse fate than antipathy for her.

        • tedbetts

          One thing we can say is that the PMO makes personal attacks of critics a lot – a lot – more frequently. Look at the way they went after Frank Graves – who they themselves hire to do their own polling – or Warren Kinsella in the House or how they event went after Tom Flanagan (to a much lesser extent), one of their own, when he was critical of Harper's lack of principles and anti-democratic tendencies. Think back to the way they went after Martin too: it wasn't some general "his policies are scary" but "he supports child pornography".

          And it isn't that the Liberals haven't gotten personal or the NDP haven't. It is that (a) the Conservatives do it constantly and (b) they go after anyone and everyone who crosses them, not their message from the critical person, but the person.

        • Be_rad

          I don't think she said "enemy of the party" was one of the attacks, but rather a meta tag applied to her by the party's supporters and that she was subsequently attacked in that spirit.

          I'm just reading what is written. I don't know whether she is right or wrong or if she is accurately capturing her experience. And you are right, too, to say there are all sorts of people who are willing to be mean and vindictive. I have seen it from all points on the spectrum, not just one end.

          • spod

            Like I said, I could easily believe that she's been the subject of some unfair and even sick attacks. I just don't see where she has grounds for comparing them to the situation she'd be in if she was criticizing Liberals in a similar way, because I see no evidence that she does criticize Liberals in that way, or much of any way at all. All of which is her right, it just makes the story as presented by the TorStar dubious.

          • Holly Stick

            This is a toatlly dishonest argument. That fact is that she says people make vicious personal attacks on her when she criticizes the Conservatives. I believe her because I see viciousrightwing attacks on the internet all the time. Rightwingers are vicious bullies.

          • spod

            Yes, that's right, they do things like say that someone "too lazy and stupid" to do something which that same person did an hour beforehand…. no, no, no, that's just that you do, only you're too lazy and stupid to know better. Cry someone else a river.

          • Thwim

            Perhaps this quote from the original post might answer your question: "with the same blunt, take-no-prisoners approach she adopts for politicians of all stripes "

            Hmmmm… I wonder what that could mean?

        • Be_rad

          She didn't say that's what they call her, but that it is a meta tag applied to her, which, according to her, invites the vicious personal attacks. Her claim, not mine. I think you are right; this medium does provide an immediate outlet to strong emotions, and it has the added bonus of being anonymous, if you want it to be. I have no doubt that all points on the spectrum are well represented in the vitriol sweepstakes.

          • Be_rad

            Sorry for the double post: my view isn't registering posts right away.

          • spod

            Neither is mine, FYI.

          • Claudia Lemire

            Neither is mine and it is very slow!

    • W.B.

      She may think speaking against the government can be a career destroying move even if not directly employed in the federal civil service. I'm sure extending control over universities and their professors is a priority at the PMO just as the very successful effort to control the Ottawa media has been.

      • spod

        But if she thought that she would be a total moron, which I think is unlikely.

      • Guest

        "I'm sure extending control over universities and their professors is a priority at the PMO…"

        Got any evidence to back that assertion up? Post-secondary education is a provincial responsibility, after all.

        "…just as the very successful effort to control the Ottawa media has been."

        How has it been "successful"? Has the Ottawa media suddenly become a gaggle of CPC cheerleaders?

        • W.B.

          Yes.

  • Leo

    Comments from:

    Calgary-based strategist Rick Anderson, as plugged in as any analyst, doesn’t buy the Harper-as-bully theory. “This idea there is personal retribution and an enemies list is significantly overdone,” he says. “It’s not unusual for a public servant who criticizes the government of the day (to be fired), and it’s perfectly healthy for the government to review funding to organizations to better align with their own policies.”

    • Jan

      Anderson knows where his bread is buttered,

  • tedbetts

    She is not saying she can't speak her mind. She is saying in fact that she does speak her mind and the reaction from Conservatives is very different, very personal and attacking, than is the reaction from others.

    • spod

      Saying "I should be able to speak my mind on political issues" implies that she is otherwise unable to do so. Anyway, as I explained above, I see no evidence that she is in a position to make the sort of comparison that you suggest. Can you provide any examples of her criticizing the Liberals or NDP, and not just doing so from the left, i.e., is there any evidence that she's ever said anything which would upset anyone on the left? All I can find is examples of her criticizing conservatives. Not that that matters, really. But the claim you are making is only defensible is she has some reasonable basis for making the comparison, and I see no evidence that she does. Can you provide evidence to the contrary?

      • Be_rad

        The interweb is only so useful in doing that kind of search. Its archival qualities are unorganized and the comprehensiveness of its content deteriorates as you go back in time. Hard to prove a negative.

        • spod

          Most major publications of the sort McIvor would be commenting in will have archives covering the past several years, so it's not nearly as difficult as you make it out to be – even less so if you have access to academic databases, which I've used as well. Any relevant printed material can easily be searched for. And I'm not asking anyone to prove a negative either.

          • Be_rad

            Proving a negative is along the lines of "prove she said soemthing evil about the Left." "I can't find anything she said against the Left." "Therefore she must never have said anything against the Left." The final sentencwe is not a logical conclusion, because you can't prove a negative. "There is no God." "How do you know?" "Because I can't see Her."

          • Be_rad

            Proving a negative is along the lines of "prove she said something evil about the Left." "I can't find anything she said against the Left." "Therefore she must never have said anything against the Left." The final sentence is not a logical conclusion, because you can't prove a negative. "There is no God." "How do you know?" "Because I can't see Her."

          • spod

            But this isn't what I'm saying. The issue isn't what she's said in any or every minute of her waking life. The issue is things that can be easily researched: statements to major media outlets. There are many examples of her criticizing the conservatives in major media outlets, as a bit of research will show. Researching those same outlets does not provide anything comparable with respect to liberals. Given those facts, I don't see how she's in a position to compare liberal versus conservative reaction to her criticisms. Unless there are examples of her criticizing liberals that I've missed – which should not be difficult to determine, given that the only relevant sources are major media outlets, and these can be easily searched by anyone with access to decent library databases, and even searched reasonably well without those resources.

      • Holly Stick

        "…the same blunt, take-no-prisoners approach she adopts for politicians of all stripes…"

        The thing is that the left is less inclined to indulge in viciouse smears-and jeers than rightwingers, so if she did criticize the Liberals or the NDP, she probably would not get attacked by anonymous cowards.

        • spod

          In order for her to make that judgment (i.e., in order to compare the sort of e-mails she would get from liberals versus conservatives in response to criticism) there would have to be some evidence that she had ever criticized liberals. But so far as I can see, there isn't really any such evidence (I have a more detailed post on what I've been able to find below). And if that's the case then she really isn't a position to making that sort of comparison. Unless someone can provide contrary evidence – which no one seems to have even tried to do, including yourself.

  • tedbetts

    One thing we can say is that the PMO makes personal attacks of critics a lot – a lot – more frequently and a lot more personally.

    Look how they went after non-MPs: civil servants, pundits like Frank Graves – who they themselves hire to do their own polling – or Warren Kinsella in the House, or even their own like Turner, Guergis, even Flanagan when he was critical of Harper's lack of principles and anti-democratic tendencies. There’s a long history of this very personal attack for Harper: remember Martin " supports child pornography". Tried the same thing when the Bloc delayed the pedophile registry bill, saying Duceppe supported pedophiles by delaying the urgently needed bill… and then proroguing (and the urgently needed bill has yet to be re-introduced by the lying Conservatives).

    And it isn't that the Liberals haven't gotten personal or the NDP haven't. It is that (a) the Conservatives do it constantly and (b) they go after anyone and everyone who crosses them, not their message from the critical person, but the person.

    • Leo

      Not true. More comments from the Star:

      Gerry Nicholls, consultant, blogger and author (Loyal to the Core: Stephen Harper, Me and the NCC) also praises the PM’s style. “There are two emotions that work in politics — hate and fear. It’s halfway to winning. Do the Conservatives use them? Yes, they do. But so did the Liberals. Everybody uses the politics of fear.”

      • Thwim

        Interesting.. usually the "But mooommmm! The other guys all do it!" argument doesn't have aspects of, "I just want to do it more!"

    • Mike T.

      And if they were fair attacks rather than stupid braying they'd be considerably more justified.

      • Leo

        And who gets to decide "what is fair?"

    • spod

      For someone who is so worked out about the allegedly nefarious pattern of personal attacks from conservatives you seem to be a lot more concerned with personally attacking conservatives for personally attacking then in engaging yourself in the sort of substantive research which would provide an empirical basis for objective analysis of this issue, namely, determining whether McIvor has a record of criticizing liberals in print, which would thereby provide her a basis for making the comparison between liberal and conservative reactions which you claim that she is making. Based on the little bit of looking around that I've had time to do, and have detailed in one of my posts below, she hasn't done so, which suggests that she doesn't really have any grounds for her comparison, which makes her whole line of argument, and the arguments of those who support it or uncritically link to it (*cough*Wherry*cough*), seem rather anecdotal and speculative and even, you could say…. personal.

    • Holly Stick

      Yes, and look at how Harper and Ministers go to international meetings and wank on about domestic politics, thus boring and repelling the international audience.

      • spod

        I think that, given that Mr. Wherry has devoted a whole post to the unevidenced assertion that conservatives are more likely to engage in personal attacks, a new post should be set up titled "HollyStick: Lazy. Stupid", since there would be actual evidence here for that: you know, like that fact that she thought she could accuse me of being too lazy and stupid to do something that I had actually done an hour before her? And she's so stupid that she believes that calling someone lazy and stupid for not doing something that they've already done helps to show that liberals like you don't default to insipid personal attacks? HollyStick is so lazy and stupid. bhahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha.

  • spod

    No one has been able to provide a shred of evidence that Ms. McIvor ever engaged in the sort of "blunt, take-no-prisoners" criticism of Liberals or the NDP which would enable her to make a comparison between Liberal and Conservative reactions? (And just criticizing those parties from the left wouldn't make the point, since other liberals will of course be sympathetic to that.) The closest thing that I have found is some comments in a Hill Times piece in 2007 where she says that Dion is a poor "retail politician", who is "perfectly capable" of getting better at retail politics, and she hopes he gets better soon, because otherwise he will be "the best prime minister Canada never had". Not exactly a body-blow there (he would be the best PM ever if only he had better PR! you mean Dion needed some "retail" work even though he was otherwise totally awesome? very "blunt" and "take no prisoners" analysis!). As far as I am concerned, she is certainly free to continue broadcasting her anti-Harper opinions in the media, although those opinions seems like a melange of trite boilerplate, so I'm not sure why anyone would quote her unless they're looking for an academic "authority" to support their anti-Harper spin. But is there any evidence at all that she is in a position to compare the Liberal versus the Conservative reaction to criticism? For her to make that kind of comparison, she would have to have criticized Liberals. But so far as I can find, although she's a semi-regular anti-Harper media commentator, the closest she's come to criticizing a Liberal is saying that Dion because of his "retail" skills Dion might be "the best Prime Minister Canada never had" (but she's certain he can improve them enough to win if only he is given enough time!). So I just don't see her as being in a position to make this comparison.

    • Jan

      Classic Con anti-academic character attack.

      • spod

        I've not attacked her in any way, let alone attacked her character or academics. The only person doing any attacking her is you. All that I point out above is that if she wants to claim that conservatives respond to her criticism so much worse than liberals do then there needs to be some evidence that she's engaged in comparable criticism of liberals. I can't find any. I can find evidence that she's quite sympathetic to liberals and very much opposed to conservatives. Which she's certainly entitled to. But if her media commentary consistently reflects those beliefs, then she's not going to have a basis from which to compare liberal versus conservative responses to criticism. But if someone can provide contrary evidence concerning her media commentary, I'd be happy to have a look at it.

        • gottabesaid

          Maybe somebody should give Tom Flanagan a call and see if he gets Liberal hate-mail.

        • Jan

          You really should do a little googling. If you're really this interested in the subject.

        • Holly Stick

          You should write shorter posts, People probably stopped reading them after your second one or so.

          • spod

            Obviously that is true of you, since in a post above, after claiming that liberals like you are less likely to engage in personal attacks, you write that I am "too lazy and stupid" to know about something which I had in fact found and discussed at length in a post an hour before you. Look, you might be too lazy to read and too stupid to understand that calling people "lazy and stupid" for not doing things that they actually did an hour before you refutes the whole point that you're trying to make, but I don't see any good reason to dumb-down my posts to the level of ignorance that you operate on.

          • Holly Stick

            Multiple longwinded posts askng the same auestion over and over again showed that you were not interested in finding out the facts for yourself.

            The fact is that your dishonest argument is irrelevant. She gets attacked for criticizing the Conservatives, and whether she criticized anyone else is completely irrelevant.

          • W.B.

            You sound a bit dangerous. But you have destroyed this thread.

          • spod

            Yes, what we really needed is more liberal posters assuring us that liberals, unlike conservatives, don't default to personal attacks, and then comment on how given conservatives are "too lazy and stupid" to do something which they had in fact done an hour before hand. That would have kept everything at a high level. Seriously, if you want substantive analysis, you had the opportunity to engage in it when I was still researching McIvor's relevant as pertained to the issue. Neither you nor any of your compatriots provided anything of substance on that score, but now that your friends are back in the business of personal attacks, you're happy to jump back on board in defense. You've thereby contradicted not only yourself, but also McIvor.

    • Be_rad

      From the first post you made on this thread to this point, 15 minutes elapsed. You have pretty high expectations of the other commenters to jump through your hoops.

      • spod

        Well, I was able to do some of that research in even less time, so I don't think it's so unreasonable. Anyone who had even the slightest experience at doing that sort of research could get it done in even less time. And since people continued to post opinions which required an evidentiary basis to be meaningful within that 15 minutes, it was certainly reasonable to ask for the evidence. Anyway, now you've had much more than 15 minutes, so instead of complaining about how hard it is to look things up, why don't you stop making claims that require and evidentiary basis in the absence of evidence and instead respond to or provide relevant research into the question?

        • Jan

          Give it up – nobody's buying what you're selling. It's obviously her comments on the In and Out that have attracted the attention of the nasties of the Con party. God, look how they attacked the head of Elections Canada and he's just trying to do his job.

          • spod

            It's obvious that you're incapable of addressing the actual point at issue, and obvious that you have nothing substantive as opposed to wildly speculative to say about much of anything else either.

        • Be_rad

          Hard to prove a negative. Anyway, the interweb is a poor archive and even worse in overall content going back in time. Did we even have mainstream blogs all the way back in 2004?

          • spod

            Blogs are not the issue. McIvor is quoted criticizing the conservatives mostly not on blogs but in very well archived publications. They can all be searched easily enough by anyone. And academic databases (which I have access to, at least) will let you search going back to way before the internet was even invented.

          • Be_rad

            The reference to blogs was meant to highlight how much the internet has changed in a few short years.

          • spod

            Ok, but since major media outlets are what is at issue, the fact remains that it is mostly quite easy to search them very comprehensively and very quickly not only for the past few years, but going back to before the internet even existed. And after having done such research I don't see any evidence that McIvor is in a position to make the sort of comparison she makes in the article. But I could be wrong, and am waiting on evidence to the contrary.

    • Thwim

      Yes, because absence of evidence is evidence of absence, right?

      Wait.. something's wrong there..

  • Passing by

    I am SO tired of angry right wingers, whether they live at Langevin or in comment threads.

    It is just wearying, which I guess is the idea.

    • TimesArrow

      Keep on mocking them…eventually they grow weary too. :)

    • spod

      But I guess you're not weary of liberals in comment threads like this one who start out by saying that unlike conservatives liberals like they don't default to personal attacks, and then right after that calls someone "lazy and stupid" for failing to do something that they did an hour before them in the exact same thread that they were too lazy and stupid to read.

  • spod

    No, Holly, I looked. For instance, below you write that I am "too lazy and stupid" to do so by linking to a story which I found and discussed an hour before you. Which you were too lazy to have figured out. And too stupid to realize that calling someone lazy and stupid for failing to do something which they did an hour before you obviously refutes your whole claim that liberals don't engage in personal attacks.

  • spod

    I think that, given that Mr. Wherry has devoted a whole post to the unevidenced assertion that conservatives are more likely to engage in personal attacks, a new post should be set up titled "HollyStick: Lazy. Stupid", since there would be actual evidence here for that: you know, like that fact that she thought she could accuse me of being too lazy and stupid to do something that I had actually done an hour before her? And she's so stupid that she believes that calling someone lazy and stupid for not doing something that they've already done helps to show that liberals like you don't default to insipid personal attacks? But there is one upside to HollyStick's laziness and stupidity: it's made obvious that McIvor is wrong to say that liberals are somehow less likely to default to personal attacks. Which means that this thread has served a higher purpose than just revealing the laziness and stupidity of one particular Macleans.ca troll named HollyStick: it's also revealed something about how at least some liberals default to these kinds of personal attacks. This is no reflection on Mr. Ignatieff, of course. But it's something someone like McIvor should consider before trying to lay so much blame one side.

    • spod

      Also: the next time you see HollyStick trolling around some thread on Macleans.ca, make sure to link back to this one, just to remind people that she starts out by saying that unlike conservatives liberals like her don't default to personal attacks, and then right after that calls someone "lazy and stupid" for failing to do something that they did an hour before her in the exact same thread that she was too lazy and stupid to read!

      • Holly Stick

        Wherever did you get the idea that I am Liberal? I'm not, and you can find no evidence that I have ever claimed to be one.

        And if you want people to read all your posts, be more succinct.

        • spod

          I never claimed that you were a Liberal, you moron; liberal on the other hand is a reasonable inference from the content of your various postings. You can deny the appellation if you want. But what you can't deny with any credibility is that you're lazy, stupid, and hypocritical: what other sort of creature would assert that the problem with conservatives is that they're more likely to default to personal attacks and then turn right around and call one conservative "too lazy and stupid" to have done something which that very person had done in the exact same thread an hour before you managed to? And who said I wanted "people" to read all my posts? I don't expect that people who are lazy and stupid will be able to. And that includes you obviously. On the other hand, I recognize that despite your demonstrated and indubitable laziness and stupidity, your sure doing your best to *find* all of my posts and type out some chickenscratched drivel in response to them. Reading and comprehending, on the other hand, I know, is something that you're manifestly too lazy and stupid for.

          • Holly Stick

            Time for your anger management class.

          • TJCook

            "You can deny the appellation if you want. But what you can't deny with any credibility is that you're lazy, stupid, and hypocritical…"

            Time for your lithium.

  • http://dougsamu.wordpress.com dougrogers

    Could somebody give spod a keyboard with a return key?

    • spod

      Could liberals work on the quality of their internet trolling? Also, not throw around baseless accusations only to blatantly expose their hypocrisy and not expect to have anyone point that out to them? (Or does that count as a "vicious personal attack…"?)

      • Holly Stick

        Do you imagine that everyone who criticizes you is a Liberal? How prejudiced.

        • spod

          Of course I don't imagine that. But I'm not imagining that you're lazy and stupid. You've illustrated that beyond any shadow of a doubt.

  • Douglass

    I would have to agree with Linda Diebel. From my own experiences communicating with my MP, I have found the Conservatives to have very thin skin. I regularly write with my disagreements on Government policy. I am polite, generally get my point across but never make it personal with him. I usually get a form letter back letting me know my message was received. Then after one email in 2007, I received a phone call that day from my MP. I, a normally opinionated female who doesn't demure easily, found myself feeling quite intimidated. I told my MP on more than one occasion at the beginning of the call that I was taking care of my newborn son and was not in the position to sit down and have a policy talk with him at that moment, but he pushed anyways. After that I stopped writing him for a while. ( I also stopped awnsering 406 numbers on my phone!) That call pissed me off! I didn't like the way he handled me, and I didn't like that it left me feeling scared about giving my opinion to my elected representative. They are there to listen to all of our opinions. Even if they don't agree with us. There was no need for the open hostility.

    Talking with a friend the other day I mentioned my contact with the MP, and how that has seriously coloured my view of him as a politician. I was informed that I am not the only one who has complained to her that they felt intimidated by him. It's a sad state of affairs. It drives people away from politics, and it's not good for the country.

    • spod

      I also don't answer phone calls from Montana.

      • Douglass

        That's what you got from what I wrote? Bravo! So I got the area code wrong. Big whoop!

        • spod

          for some reason, this doesn't seem to have been posted as a response to the appropriate comment, so let's try it again:

          I considered the possibility that it was 416 (the most reasonable typo under the circumstances), but then I thought, what sounds better: (a) being so disturbed by a phone call in which an MP, responding to a constituent's letter, expresses their (apparently ham-handed) insistence on wanting to address the substantive content of the letter or (b) not wanting to pick up calls from Montana. Frankly, not wanting to answer calls from Montana sounds a lot more sensible to me. But if it's actually (a), well, I'm still not sure that that counts as the kind of "vicious personal attack" we're supposed to be concerned about here.

          • spod

            To be fair, once some sort of salesman from Pickering called me and was very insistent and since then I've been afraid to even drive through the 905, let alone answer a phone call from there.

          • Douglass

            I talked about open hostility in his call not a 'vicious personal attack' but hey keep making stuff up if it makes you feel better. I would prefer not to get into the content of my call, as I am trying not to make this a 'personal attack', I am just trying to express that I felt intimidated in the way in which I was spoken to, with the way the call was handled. That I can understand what this lady was saying when talking about this government being angry, vindictive and generally holding a grudge. And it's not just the civil servants getting this treatment, but teachers, professional, and ordinary citizens like me.

          • spod

            The subject Wherry/Diebel/McIvor was "vicious personal attack" and thus my use of the term. Open hostility or not, if you were afraid to pick up calls from the 416, I'm pretty sure the problem is more yours than anyone else's.

          • Holly Stick

            QED again. The only thing worse than the rightwingers who commit vicious personal attacks is the rightwingers who defend the attackers and blame the victim.

  • spod

    Well, I considered the possibility that it was 416 (the most reasonable typo under the circumstances), but then I thought, what sounds better: (a) being so disturbed by a phone call in which an MP, responding to a constituent's letter, expresses their (apparently ham-handed) insistence on wanting to address the substantive content of the letter or (b) not wanting to pick up calls from Montana. Frankly, not wanting to answer calls from Montana sounds a lot more sensible to me. But if it's actually (a), well, I'm still not sure that that counts as the kind of "vicious personal attack" we're supposed to be concerned about here.

    • frobisher

      Please raise the tone or find the door.

  • s_c_f

    So surprising that the Star would publish something negative about the Conservatives. Well, I guess if it's in the Star, it might be true, sooner or later, depending on the day of the week and the mood of the editor that day.

    • Holly Stick

      Your buddy spod has been demonstrating the article's accuracy all over the comments here.

  • Emily

    Well I'm sure if you've never heard of her, then no one else has, right?

    She's conservative.

  • spod

    Her name is certainly not top of mind, nor even back of mind, for people working for the conservative party in various capacities. And quick look at some of her publications and media appearances makes obvious that she's a liberal, as is to be expected.

  • spod

    She's certainly not top of mind, nor even back of mind, for conservatives. And everything that she's published and said in the media makes clear that she's not a conservative, not that that matters one way or the other.

  • Emily

    Sorry, she's a conservative.

  • spod

    Nope. But, as I said, it makes no difference regardless. Her complaints would sound just as odd if she were Harper's half-sister or something.

  • gottabesaid

    "She expects to take lumps for her political opinions. What’s changed with this government is that she says she’s portrayed as “an enemy of the party” and “fair game” for vicious, personal attacks, which fill her inbox."

    I would have liked to see some proof of these vicious, personal attacks. In the original article, it's just put out there with nothing to back it up. I don't doubt her sincerity, I just would have liked to see some of these attacks verbatim.

  • Leo

    Good point. Can you imagin the hate mail Oboma gets????

  • spod

    I don't doubt that she's gotten some. The fact is that there are a lot of disturbed people out there, and the combination of politics and the internet brings them out of the woodwork. But the question is how is she in a position to compare that to what she would get if she was in the media criticizing the Liberals or NDP on a regular basis (which, as I try to document in my post below, I can see no evidence that she's done)? And does she really think that "Conservatives" know, let alone care, about her (in either a negative or a positive sense)? Neither I nor any of my Tory friends had heard about her until the Toronto Star took up her cause and Warren Kinsella and Mr. Wherry gave support to her plight. I certainly deplore the sort of deranged e-mails which I can imagine that she might sometimes get. But so far as I and pretty much anyone else in Tory land are concerned, she's an object of apathy, not antipathy.

  • Jan

    She has criticized the Cons over the In and Out Scandal. Maybe you haven't heard of her spod, but trust me the PMO is well aware of her. You're either being disingenuous or out of the loop.

  • Emily

    'Dr. MacIvor teaches courses in Canadian Politics, Women and Politics, Classical Political Theory and Political Parties. She has written a textbook on Women and Politics in Canada, a book chapter on party leadership selection, and several articles and conference papers on various aspects of Canadian political parties. Her current research topics include a theory of change in party leadership selection, the cartel theory of party politics, and the rebuilding of the Progressive Conservative Party of Canada.'
    '

  • spod

    Eh? I'm aware that she's criticized the Conservatives – or, at least, I've been aware of it since reading her TorStar story. And I'm not exactly sure why you're an authority on what the PMO is "well aware" of. But even if they were, so what? But anyway, the main point I've been trying to make is what basis does she have for comparing responses to criticism? In my post below, I try to present some research into this question and ask for contrary evidence, in order to assess whether she has any basis for making her claim. I haven't seen any.

  • spod

    This obviously does not make her a conservative. You can "research" something that you despise, e.g., if someones "current research topics" included the Holocaust it would not make them a Nazi. Anyway, if you read what she's actually written, it's clear that she's not a conservative. But, as I said above, that's irrelevant to evaluating her point anyway.

  • spod

    This comment by Emily should actually be flagged, since most people probably aren't aware that there people out there stupid enough to believe that someone's "research topics" include X then they must be X themselves. This sort of idiocy is a good example of why it's easy to imagine that McIvor has had some disturbed people e-mail her. It's just unlikely that a disturbed idiot like Emily would be e-mailing McIvor because they are in the same anti-Harper camp.

  • Jan

    Call Ryan Sparrow. That's if you're not Ryan Sparrow. Nice try on changing the channel with the classsic Con reverse onus with a twist.

  • Loraine Lamontagne

    Following her joining the Liberal ranks, Belinda Stronach was called
    "a dipstick – an attractive one, but still a dipstick" by Ontario Conservative Bob Runciman, while Saskatchewan Conservative MP Maurice Vellacott said "people prostitute themselves for different costs or different prices" and Alberta Conservative Tony Abbott said Stronach had "whored herself out for power."

    Anyone can provide quotes of that nature following, say, Emmerson's joing the Conservative ranks? Can you quote a liberal quo alluded to Emmerson as a prostitute?

    I don't think so.

  • Emily

    People tend to research items they're interested in….but if you want to be a dipstick on here, feel free.

    I see you're already into the personal attacks, so we know you're a Con

    PS I'm allowed to be anti-Harper you know. Harp hasn't made it illegal….yet.

  • Emily

    Ping

  • W.B.

    You are defeating your own argument here. But you have succeeded in disrupting the thread and breaking up other attempts at reasonable respectful discussion.

  • spod

    Revealingly, you think that the way to prove that Liberals wouldn't engage in personal attacks is to write something like "call Ryan Sparrow… if you're not Ryan Sparrow". You're probably to thick to realize the irony involved, just as you probably don't realize that throwing around random lines about "changing the channel" make little sense when you're in fact consistently trying to evade the only point which I've been consistently making, namely, that there seems to be no evidence that McIvor has ever engaged in the sort of criticisms of liberals which would enable her to make the sort of comparison which she makes in the article and which her supporters in this thread reiterate? If you can provide some actual substantive evidence to the contrary, that would certainly be helpful. Otherwise you'll just have to continue engaging in personal attacks as a way of defending people who are attacking others for personally attacking.

  • spod

    Yes, they often research things that they're interested in because they dislike them. Again, if your "logic" was actually in any sense logical we'd have to assume that everyone researching the Holocaust was a Nazi, everyone who researched Stalinist Russia was interested in carrying out programs of mass famine, everyone who researched ethnic violence was interested in carrying it out themselves, etc. In fact, many people research political movements they are not affiliated with in any way at all. For instance, the most famous academic article about conservatism in Canada was written by a life-long supporter of the NDP.

  • spod

    Do you often make nonsensical noises for no reason at all?

  • Jan

    I will give you points for not mentioning the coalition. We have to be grateful for small mercies.

  • spod

    This is meaningless.

  • Holly Stick

    Since spod is too lazy or stupid to use google:
    http://hilltimes.com/page/view/.2007.august.13.fu…

  • spod

    Bhahahahah…. you're claiming that I'm "too lazy or stupid to use google" by linking to an article which I already discussed at length in a comment that I posted 55 minutes ago?!!!!!!! Bhahahahahahahahahahahaha. You moron! And I know, I know, your proof that libs like yourself don't engage in personal attacks is calling someone "too lazy or stupid to use google" because of a link which that same person had already found and discussed almost an hour ago!!!!!! Bahahahahahah. Obviously you are too lazy and stupid to even read the words on your computer screen.

  • spod

    Holly…..instead of suggesting that I'm "too lazy or stupid to use google" by posting a link to an article that I already discussed in this thread almost an hour ago, why don't you explain why you are too lazy and stupid to read the actual computer screen in front of you? And then why don't you explain why you are too lazy and stupid to understand that if you want to prove that liberals are less likely to engage in personal attacks calling someone "too lazy and stupid" to do something that they've done and discussed in this very thread an hour before you did is not the way to prove it. In fact, it's just evidence of the reverse: apparently, you're too lazy and stupid to read what someone writes, and so instead you accuse them of being lazy and stupid because you're too lazy and stupid to know that they did what you're saying that they're too lazy and stupid to do an hour before your lazy and stupid self, you lazy, stupid dumbo.

  • spod

    And once more….bhahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha. You lazy stupid person. You really thought you would accuse me of being too lazy and stupid to do something that I had actually done an hour before you? Only you're too lazy and stupid to realize that? And you're so stupid that you believe that calling someone lazy and stupid for not doing something that they've already done helps to show that liberals like you don't default to insipid personal attacks? You are so lazy and stupid. bhahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha.

  • TimesArrow

    Time someone took a nice warm winter holiday in the sun somewhere where there's lots of free booze to self medicate ; i'd join you, but i don't think i could handle being called a lazy stupid Liberal whenever the beverage levels slipped beneath dangerously low levels.

  • Douglass

    This whole tirade goes to the point of the post. Conservatives seem to take criticisms more personally, and then attack with a level of anger that is wholly inappropriate.

    Good day sir.

  • W.B.

    Wow. You are really playing to type now. But really, are you OK?

  • spod

    Yes, that's right, because when someone starts by saying that liberals are less likely to engage in personal attacks than conservatives and then that same person turns around and calls someone "too lazy and stupid" for failing to do someone which the object of their attack had in fact done an hour before hand, no one should bother to point out the hypocrisy involved in that. You may think that calling people "lazy and stupid" is someone just neutral "criticism" and not at all personal in the first place, but the only way to reach that sort of conclusion would seem to be by being some sort of moron. This impression is confirmed by the observation that if you wanted to discuss the substantive issues involved in McIvor's comments, you had every opportunity to do so when I was conducting the actual research required to determine whether her analysis had the necessary empirical basis to give her argument legitimacy. The response of a liberal commenter was then to simply reassert that liberals are less likely to engage in personal attacks and then immediately thereafter assert that I was "too lazy and stupid" to do something which I had in fact done an hour before in the same exact same thread. Given that you feel the need to defend people whose default mode is to accuse people with whom they disagree of laziness and stupidity – for not allegedly not doing precisely what had long-since been done, no less – whereas you feel no need to engage in the actual empirical research necessary to gauge the assertions made in the original post, I think it's fair enough to conclude that you're primarily interested in providing a thin patina of legitimacy to insults and name-calling, and not at all interested in conducting the sort of substantive investigations required to assess actual arguments being advanced.

  • Holly Stick

    Yes indeed, QED. Google that, spod.

  • mmmm

    Amen!

  • spod

    Also, because, being a liberal, you're naturally adverse to "personal attacks", preferring to stick to the high road of substantive empirical research, which explains why you've done none of the latter and defended the former, all in a thread which is based on the assertion that liberals don't do the former in the first place. I doubt your sincerity and intelligence, but you're free to keep reading my comments, just as McIvor is free to continue proffering baseless generalizations and Wherry is free to post them uncritically.

  • spod

    I'm always pleased when liberal's liberal hypocrisy is exposed!

  • spod

    You don't know what QED means, do you, you moron?

  • TimesArrow

    Also, because, being a liberal, you're naturally adverse to "personal attacks",

    Not at all. But you should really make up your mind; are you merely interested in substantive empirical research; or are you in fact a snarky troll, who's doing more to make MacIvor's point than you probably realise?

  • spod

    Ah, I did the empirical research some time ago. Then, a liberal commenter asserted that I was "too lazy and stupid" to have done something that I'd done an hour previously. Then, all of the other liberal posters who had nothing to say about the actual research jumped out of the woodwork to defend this sort of nonsense. Thus revealing their true natures. As for me, no one has still said a single word which suggests that McIvor has a basis for making her comparison, and so the basic point remains unchallenged, and now all that is left is metaphorically slapping around a few punks before dinner.

  • Loraine Lamontagne

    How about those dozens of Liberal supporters who had their brakes cut off and their homes covered with hateful graffitis in the 2008 campaign?

    Anyone can pull a report of similar actions against Conservative supporters?

From Macleans