Beyond The Commons

Beyond The Commons

Aaron Wherry covers all the goings-on in and around Parliament Hill. Follow Aaron on Twitter: @aaronwherry

The Commons: Law and points of order

by Aaron Wherry on Wednesday, March 2, 2011 7:07pm - 99 Comments

The Scene. Bev Oda stood this to day to audibly commit various words to the official record. Really, it was the least she could do.

In keeping with the government side’s “operational decision,” John Baird stood to take the first two questions asked of the International Cooperation Minister this afternoon, but then the Liberals asked generally about the functioning of Canada’s development agency. Here Ms. Oda motioned to Mr. Baird that she could take this one and so she stood and mouthed various platitudes.

Then though, Liberal Anita Neville stood with her supplementary, wondering if, while she had the minister’s attention, she might ask some questions specific to the handling of KAIROS. And so she did. And so Ms. Oda apparently felt compelled to stand again. What followed from her had absolutely and precisely nothing to do with the particular issue at hand. But she spoke words. And she did so while standing. And that was apparently more than enough for members of the government side to leap up and applaud her when she’d finished.

Less enthusiastic was the response to another day of questions about how the Conservatives funded their campaign for high office in 2006.

“Mr. Speaker, this in and out scandal is more than forged invoices, it is more than police raids on Conservative Party headquarters and it is more than just the clique around the Prime Minister facing jail time. This is fundamentally a question about the public character of the Prime Minister, his lust to win at any cost and at any price,” Michael Ignatieff lectured.

There were various groans from the government side.

“Will he admit that he encouraged his party to break the law and defraud the Canadian taxpayer,” Mr. Ignatieff continued, “and will he have the decency to stand in the House and finally tell Canadians the truth?”

In his seat a few spots over from the Prime Minister, Tony Clement shook his head solemnly. (And no doubt thought about tweeting a frowny face emoticon.) The Prime Minister merely shrugged. “Mr. Speaker, as I have said before, there have been different court decisions on this particular matter, which has gone on for some years,” he said.

For sheer apathy, Mr. Harper would be outdone a moment later by his parliamentary secretary. “Mr. Speaker, the honourable member knows this is a five-year-old administrative dispute,” Pierre Poilievre said in response to a query from Liberal Dominic LeBlanc. “One court has ruled in favour of the Conservative Party and another court has not. Otherwise, it is the typical back and forth that one would expect in an administrative dispute of this kind.”

Mr. LeBlanc attempted here to supply the passion that seemed lacking. “Mr. Speaker, there will be a lot of people in federal prisons tonight who think they had an administrative disagreement with the federal government,” he snapped.

His fellows Liberals applauded, but Mr. LeBlanc went on, jabbing the air with his finger and turning a nice shade of purple in the face.

“The candidates in 67 ridings, the national top organizers and fundraisers of the Conservative Party are all in this up to their necks,” he declared. “They submitted fake invoices for fake expenses. They thought they could fool Elections Canada and the Federal Court of Appeal. Well, guess what? They cannot. So, why did this party use illegal money to campaign with dirty money in the last election?”

Mr. Poilievre was unmoved. “Mr. Speaker, the honourable member can become excited and animated all he wants,” he sighed. “The reality is that this continues to be a five-year-old administrative dispute that the Federal Court has ruled in favour of the Conservative Party and another has done otherwise.”

Indeed, for all this now entails—charges from the office of the public prosecutor, a ruling by the Federal Court of Appeal, the laws that govern how we practice formal democracy in this country—the Prime Minister would later explain that here was merely a debate over the definitions of national and local spending. It is entirely etymological, you see; an academic debate about the very nature of the English language.

The Liberals continued on and in keeping with their interest in testing the shyness of ministers, they called on various members of cabinet to stand and account for their own involvement in in-and-out transactions. No doubt in keeping with some other “operational decision,” each declined.

Various Conservatives had otherwise become engaged in something else entirely. Liberal backbencher Alexandra Mendes, apparently quite taken with the way the sun hit the stained glass windows of the House this afternoon, had taken out her Blackberry and snapped a few photos. Alas, the rules governing such things are quite strict: the taking of pictures is restricted to a select number of professional photographers each day and the images distributed must show only the head and torso of the individual speaking at a particular time.

For violating such restrictions, Ms. Mendes was pointed out by various members of the Conservative side. And at the conclusion of Question Period, a Conservative backbencher by the name of Greg Rickford was sent up to formally report the transgression to the Speaker. Ms. Mendes stood immediately to apologize and assure the House that the pictures taken would be deleted.

Let it thus never be said the ways and means of this Parliament are are not taken seriously, that the foundations of our democracy are in woeful disrepair. The doctrine of ministerial accountability may be infinitely malleable, the bounds of our electoral process may be entirely debatable (and dreadfully boring), but there are some things we still hold dear; the ability of our elected representatives to sit in their places without fear of surreptitious recording being chief among these principles.

The Stats. In and out, 15 questions. Air Canada, five questions. The environment, four questions. KAIROS and the budget, three questions each. The Quebec City arena, two questions. Pakistan, CIDA, Libya, the National Capital Commission, economic diversification and immigration, one question each.

Stephen Harper, nine answers. Pierre Poilievre, seven answers. Chuck Strahl, five answers. Peter Kent, four answers. John Baird, three answers. Josee Verner, Bev Oda and Lawrence Cannon, two answers each. James Moore, Jim Flaherty, Lynne Yelich and Jason Kenney, one answer each.

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  • Olivier

    The picture-taking event is rather strange….

    • sourstud

      You'd think they'd know the rules by now.

      • Keith in Brampton

        Mendes? Oda? The entire CPC caucus? Lots of "theys" in this one who get a big Fail where rules are concerned.

  • M_A_D_world

    For the fun of it have someone ask a question about a topic that while important to Canada, isn't so god awfully predictable to as have a prepared response at hand?
    Catch them off guard, disrupt the rhythm. Possibly gain either a honest response or see Baird tackle a poor would be respondent.

    • Agree, and to that note, maybe spend a day or two away from the predictable and then suddenly "ask" again and catch them off guard thinking it's old news. Of course that's what their response would be.

  • Halo_Override

    Aaron, by calling it a "nice shade of purple", you're just so obviously in the bag for the LPC. A proper objective journalist would have called it "Lieberal Aubergine" and made some kind of joke about Leclerc being a closet interior decorator or something.

  • NorthernPoV

    Harper rarely addresses messy issues. He successfully pulls off the this-is-all-beneath-me position.
    (as least as far as the adoring media and ~35% of poll respondents say)
    When stuff hits the fan, he sends out his attack poodles like Baird and PierreP.

    Iggy should stick to big issues. He needs a rat-pack to go after the attack poodles on the myriad of messy issues that have not as yet had enough main-street traction to change peoples' minds.

    If and when in-and-out and/or Odagate become big issues, Iggy can bark a bit too.
    (A rat-pack would be as effective as Iggy – either the issues will mount and a tipping point will come or not, but Iggy's involvement isn't going to make the difference. )

    In the meantime he should copy his opponent and consistently weigh in on "weightier" stuff. (F35s, corp taxes, dumb on crime etc etc). If the tipping point comes he will be the fresh face people can turn to.

    • EeeOar

      I like the part where you advise Ignatieff to stick to the big issues. Perhaps that would require Ignatieff and some senior LPC types to develop a somewhat consistent set of policies – they wouldn't even need to be all that elaborate, just two or three main ideas, supported by a few other smaller policies.

      I dislike the part where you advise the creation of a rat pack – why not just stick to real questions, serious questions? That would be a nice change.

      • Keith in Brampton

        So would real answers; serious answers. Though I get / agree with what you're saying.

        • EeeOar

          Yup. But my theory is that someone has to make the first move…….and I do realize that the payoff might be a long way down the road. But what would be lost by trying that strategy? Possibly disdain from the media? If so, big deal.

          • Claudia Lemire

            Disdain at the beginning, eventually respect, I would think…

          • tonobungay

            I think that the ones to make the first move should be journalists like Mr. Wherry and their editors, and he is inching towards that. There are plenty of MPs who ask questions that are motivated by the wish for an answer, rather than serving up a slice of conflict. But those are certain to never make it to the news. I remember a period when Stéphane Dion's front bench was asking mostly that kind of question and making constructive suggestions, and not only were they not reported, they were lambasted by commentators as being virtually absent from Parliament.

            The equation is simple: mock outrage gets you press coverage while politeness and substance makes journalists tell your voters that you don't show up for work. Journalists are the ones that have to change.

          • EeeOar

            I remember a period when Stéphane Dion's front bench was asking mostly that kind of question and making constructive suggestions, and not only were they not reported, they were lambasted by commentators as being virtually absent from Parliament.

            I don't recall this period of time, but that could certainly be because I wasn't paying close enough attention. Did that last for the entire time that Dion was leader, or just for a few weeks?

            I believe that Preston Manning also tried to change the atmosphere, but he was (also) beaten into submission. On that thought, I wonder if Manning is at all impressed with the current state of affairs…

            I still think it has to be started by one side or the other in parliament, but after that (and quickly afterwards) it certainly needs to be nourished by a supportive press.

  • tedbetts

    "Let it thus never be said the ways and means of this Parliament are are not taken seriously, that the foundations of our democracy are in woeful disrepair. The doctrine of ministerial accountability may be infinitely malleable, the bounds of our electoral process may be entirely debatable (and dreadfully boring), but there are some things we still hold dear; the ability of our elected representatives to sit in their places without fear of surreptitious recording being chief among these principles."

    Brilliant writing. Bravo, sir.

    • Crit_Reasoning

      Seconded. There's something pleasingly old-fashioned about Wherry's style sometimes.

  • Waterboy

    Unfair to call Iggy underqualified cause he's got qualifications up the yin-yang. Harper and the boys cheating the spirit of the legislation-that's for sure. Just being smart about the small print- maybe. We miss the point- snakes slither-you can't blame them for being snakes- it's their nature.

  • Crit_Reasoning

    The same definition used by every single judge in Canada. The Criminal Code.

    • Jan

      This parsing of words is not getting the Conservatives anywhere. It is not an effective strategy. Give it up.

      • madeyoulook

        Invoking the Criminal Code to discuss crime is parsing of words? How many others live on your planet?

        • Crit_Reasoning

          MYL, thank goodness you're here.

          • Jan

            They're charged under the Canada Elections Act which is no less serious than the Criminal Code.

          • Crit_Reasoning

            Sure, but they're not facing criminal charges. You forgot to mention that little detail.

          • Keith in Brampton

            quasi-criminal will cover it nicely.

          • Crit_Reasoning

            I've broken the law, and I've been charged and convicted for it. I illegally exceeded a posted speed limit by 20km/h, I was convicted for this offence (for which I theoretically could have faced jail time), and I had to pay a $150 fine. Sure, the charges weren't criminal charges, but that's a technicality, right?

            I guess that makes me a "quasi-criminal". Me and millions of other people.

          • Thwim

            How about a lawbreaker then?

          • Crit_Reasoning

            "Lawbreaker" is fine. Technically, anyone who has ever done anything illegal is a lawbreaker.

          • McC_

            ADDED BONUS: it's also a lot more fun to say in a gravelly voice than 'criminal'

          • tedbetts

            Actually, you could be charged under the Criminal Code depending on the circumstances.

            But under the Highway Traffic Act, no jail time, therefore not criminal.

          • Crit_Reasoning

            My understanding is that one can face jail time under sections of Alberta's Traffic Safety Act. Obviously, one would never be jailed for a minor speeding ticket, but my understanding is that one can still be jailed under the Act.

          • tedbetts

            I don't know the act and it depends on the charge, of course. For speeding, no, you can't go to jail for speeding under the Highway Traffic Act, I don't think. Maybe there is for certain types of highly reckless driving and certainly I've seen people charged with reckless driving for speeding at way way over the spped limit. With criminal laws, though, you can't make generalizations unfortunately, you have to look at the specific offence and I don't know the HTA that well.

            "Technically" (sorry, I couldn't resist), no provincial law can be a criminal offence since that is the exclusive jurisdiction of the federal government. Quasi-criminal is more appropriate for violations of provincial securities legislation or provincial environmental laws, etc., but that doesn't stop of from referring to securities fraud as a crime or thinking of it as a crime.

        • tedbetts

          Maybe I'm just some dumb lawyer, but could you please show me where "crime" is defined in the Criminal Code or where it says only offences under the Criminal Code are "crimes" and that offences such as tax evasion, securities fraud, toxic chemical dumping are not "crimes" simply because the offense is not in that particular statute?

          As I wrote below: They have been charged with unlawful conduct. The charges have been brought, not by an administrator or bureaucrat but a Crown Prosecutor who calls the conduct clearly "illegal" based upon a review of "voluminous" evidence. The Crown Prosecutor is seeking a conviction. A conviction could lead to jail time.

          You can argue this is minor or not.

          But in what way is this not a criminal charge?

          • Crit_Reasoning

            Yeesh. My point isn't about the Criminal Code, specifically. Other federal statutes also contain criminal offences. It's about Criminal Law.

            There's a pretty important difference between "criminal" charges and "non-criminal" charges (such as summary charges) and you seem to be obscuring this distinction.

          • tedbetts

            Except you were the one who said your definition comes from the Criminal Code, CR. Except, inconveniently, there is no such definition.

            Still, I'm glad that you finally admit that criminal charges can emanate from laws other than the Criminal Code.

            But you still don't show how these criminal charges against the Conservatives are any different and not criminal charges, how breaking the law and facing charges brought by a Crown Prosecutor with jail as a possible penalty is not crime.

            Maybe this kind of election fraud is minor in your opinion, but that does not make it not a crime in fact and reality.

            But, again, this is all distraction. The Conservatives broke the law in order to get elected, they did so deliberately and intentionally, and some face jail time. Whatever you call it, that is what is important here. Not the definition of "is".

  • Crit_Reasoning

    Absolutely there is. A summary offence could most assuredly be a criminal offence. It depends on the nature of the offence though, not the "summary" part.

    OK, so help me out here: When is a summary offence NOT a criminal offence? Or are all summary conviction offences "criminal" offences by definition?

    I appreciate the major/minor distinction. I think our big point of disagreement is whether it's fair to characterize summary offences as "crimes", because my understanding is that Crown Attorneys themselves routinely describe indictable offences as "criminal offences" to distinguish them from much less serious offences.

    The charges against the four Conservatives have been described as "regulatory charges" and "summary charges" rather than "criminal charges".

    • tedbetts

      You are getting into definitions as though there is a science and a precision that doesn't exist. Like I've said there is no "legal" definition of "crime". There is only the dictionary definition. So, like a lot of English words, there will be a lot of things we would all agree are clearly inside the definition and a lot of things that are clearly outside the definition and then some things which are in a grey zone. Although in this case, I think it is clear that these are criminal charges. Perhaps you could call them "petty crimes" but I think election fraud and forgery are pretty serious, just like you would think it was pretty serious if the Liberals had accepted $100,000 donations from 18 people and won the election.

    • tedbetts

      I am quite certain that Crown Prosecutors don't think that indictable offences are the only "criminal offences". Think of summary vs indictable as a threshold question, not as a definitional or substance question. Pot plant possession was a summary offence – it's a crime but you couldn't go to jail for more than 6 months – now the same crime is an indictable offence because of Harper and you could go to jail for up to two years. Same crime, but now different degree of process and punishment.

      These are not though regulatory offences. A regulatory offence by definition does not include jail time as a possibility.

      • Crit_Reasoning

        According to the following link, some regulatory offences in Canada (in this case, the examples are provincial regulatory offences) include jail time as a possibility.

        Perhaps the federal Elections Canada charges that we're discussing are an example of this.

        http://www.lco-cdo.org/en/provincial-offences-cal…

        • tedbetts

          Yes, you’re absolutely right. I was too quick, thinking more about regulated industries. I admire your dogged determination.

          A regulatory offence is one that emanates from regulatory authorities, i.e. Crown body in charge of administering certain rules, regulations and laws. So these charges would be regulatory charges. But so are the securities and environmental offences we've been talking about which everyone would call criminal. As per your link, regulated activities are pretty much everything.

          These are terms of art more than technical terms. That's the problem. For me the test is in the process and the punishment. If a Crown Prosecutor is bringing the charge, if the aim is to get a "conviction" rather than a ruling (say for example from a human rights tribunal), if jail could result, if it goes on your "criminal record" and if you need a pardon (whether by application or automatic) to remove it from your criminal record. All of those criteria are reasonable and all of them apply to these charges.

          But as I say, I really don't care whether you call it a crime. The Cons deliberately broke the law in order to get elected, submitted falsified invoices to try to scoop up almost $1M from taxpayers. That is what is important here.

  • tedbetts

    Always pleased to be of service!

  • wilson

    So why is this a "scandal"?

    What else do they have to talk about?

    Economy ticking along better than was expected,
    Barack and Steve are on better than good terms,
    and Canadians don't want to change out the government.

    So the Opps and the liberal media look for the next Adscam,
    hope something sticks
    or that the drip drip drip will damage Canadians perception of Harper,
    or at least redirect the focus off the pathetically under qualified Liberal leader.

    • Same as why your precious adscam was a scandal. People broke the rules.
      Should I say that again? They broke the rules…

      • tedbetts

        They broke the law.

        • madeyoulook

          Allegedly, mister lawyer. Charges have been laid. Got any convictions to back up your line?

    • John D

      stealing money from taxpayers and cheating election laws are generally considered scandals in a democracy.

      • McC_

        even if only *allegedly* (to date)

  • orval

    In-and-out "scandal"?

    Did it just happen? No, it happened more than 5 years ago.
    Is it still going on? No, the clarified rules were followed in 2008 election
    Was tax payers money stolen? No. The claim is the Conservatives spent too much of their own money.
    Was somebody charged by the police (visions of Karl-Heinz Schreiber's pants falling down)? No, it was a charge by the Chief Electoral Officer.
    Is he a judge? No, he is a bureaucrat.
    Was there a crime? No. The offence is in the Elections Act, not the Criminal Code.
    Was there corruption? Nobody stole any money, or took a kickback, or hired a friend to do nothing, or forged anyone's signature, or shredded documents, so, no.
    So why is this a "scandal"? Beats me.

    However, I do enjoy watching Liberals complain about somebody else's "lust for power"

  • tedbetts

    Did it just happen? Yes, 4 senior Conservatives and the Conservative Fund were just charged with illegal activities, and the Court of Appeal just said that Elections Canada was right to deny the Conservatives payment of taxpayer dollars for their illegal invoicing.

    Is it still going on? What difference does that make. It was illegal. The charges were just brought so the court case against them is certainly still going on, and the Conservatives have certainly said they did nothing wrong.

    Was taxpayer money stolen? Is that the only thing someone can do wrong???? If you stuffed the ballot, no one's money is stolen. If you donate $100,000 dollars to a party, no one's money is stolen. That's all still illegal. Besides, no money was stolen, but the whole nut of the MPs invoices issue is that they essentially tried to steal taxpayer money with illegal invoices.

    Was somebody charged? Yes, and it wasn't the Chief Electoral Officer, bud (who by the way was appointed by Harper). It was the Public Prosecurtors Office – created by Harper, staffed by Harper. Just like tax fraud charges or securities offences charges are not brought by the police.

    Is he a judge? All charges are brought in court by Crown Prosecutors. Just like this one.

    Was there a crime? Oh yeah, absolutely. Would you consider tax fraud a crime? What about securities laws? Here's the dictionary definition for you: "crime (krm) n. 1. An act committed or omitted in violation of a law forbidding or commanding it and for which punishment is imposed upon conviction. [CHECK] 2. Unlawful activity. [CHECK] 3. An unjust, senseless, or disgraceful act or condition. [CHECK] " Oh yes. Definitely, most definitely a crime.

    Was there corruption? Absolutely. I would put election fraud way above a kickback. And yes there was even forgery: submitting a false document claiming it is something it isn't and knowing someone will rely upon your falsehood is the definition of forgery. Seriously, bud, get a basic dictionary.

    You can argue and compare this scandal in size and importance to others if you want, but scandal it is, illegal it is, crime it is, and bad news for Conservatives it is.

  • John D

    Criminals get mighty uppity when they get caught

  • chet

    As precious time ekes away with each passing day between now an an election,

    time that could be spent laying out their vision of the future, their resume as to what they offer the country.

    Instead liberals talk about Bev Oda.

    And they wonder why Harper's poll numbers keep skyrocketing upward.

  • Crit_Reasoning

    I love how you're using the dictionary definition of "crime" to rhetorically argue that a "crime" has been committed, even though the charges aren't criminal.

    I'm pretty sure that's not what they taught you in law school. ;-)

  • Stop saying " and they wonder why…yada yada" no one wonders why, chiff, dennis, hollimn, or whomever you are.

  • Thwim

    Yes, yes, we're all well aware you're desperate for the Liberals to put out their plans so you have something to steal.

    I suspect we won't see the Liberal plans until the election starts.. and given past performance, won't see the CPC plans until it's nearly over.

  • Matlock

    No doubt if we want to be precise, yes, the charges are not criminal in the technical legalistic sense in that they do not fall under the Criminal Code. In the more common English usage of the term, i.e. to commit an act in violation of a law, I'd say yes they are criminal.

    Personally, I prefer to say the Tories are facing charges under the Canada Elections Act.

  • tedbetts

    Sounds much like you want us to debate what the meaning of the word "is" is.

    Is tax fraud or tax evasion criminal? Is securities fraud criminal? No one would bat an eye if we called it so.

    Bottom and more important line is that it was illegal, they knew it was illegal, sanctions for this kind of illegal could result in real jail time.

  • Keith in Brampton

    OK; "quasi-criminal" precise enough? It means an illegal act as defined by an Act other than the Criminal Code.

  • Crit_Reasoning

    In the more common English usage of the term, i.e. to commit an act in violation of a law, I'd say yes they are criminal.

    So we're allowed to call anyone who possibly violated any law "criminal" now? Why, just today I witnessed a number of criminal jaywalkers. And don't get me started on all those folks who don't pick up their dog's poop in the park… filthy criminals, every last one of them. I got a speeding ticket last month, so I guess that makes me a criminal too. According to your "common English usage" almost everyone's a criminal! Unreported crime rates must be skyrocketing.

    Heck, if we use dictionary definition #3 that Ted provided, one needn't even violate a law to be a criminal. Did you know it's a crime to wear white after Labour Day?

  • Matlock

    I think the only thing I would say to that is that jaywalkers, non-poop-picker-upers, and speeders aren't facing up to three months in jail.

    Again, technically criminal? No. But when jail time is on the line, I'm certainly not going to lump it in with the group you've described either.

  • Crit_Reasoning

    Sounds much like you want us to debate what the meaning of the word "is" is.

    Honestly, Ted. You're a lawyer. Would you peddle this schtick in front of a judge?

    Forget the rhetoric for a second. There's a reason newspapers can't call someone a "criminal" unless they were convicted of a crime. The words "criminal" and "crime" have a very specific, commonly understood meaning.

    Lots of trivial offences could theoretically result in jail time even though they are legally not criminal offences. For example, not completing your short-form census could theoretically result in jail time. If the theoretical risk of jail time is the standard you use to whip out the "criminal" rhetoric, you're prevaricating and as a trained lawyer you know better.

  • Crit_Reasoning

    Lots of trivial, non-criminal offenses have a theoretical risk of jail time. It's just that jail time is almost never applied, like in the case of that woman who refused to fill out her census.

  • Reverend_Blair

    So what you're saying, Crit, is that the Conservatives should hide behind technicalities like a mob lawyer.

  • tedbetts

    Honestly, CR. Would you peddle this schtick to anyone in person if you weren't commenting anonymously?

    Sorry, CR, but – and I say this with respect – that comment is total bunk.

    First, there is no such hairplitting "meaning of "is" is" type distinction that you are making about what is "criminal" and what is not. There is no "legal" definition of what a "crime" is. Some are taking a bizarre position that it is only "criminal", only a "crime" if is in the Criminal Code. That's pure partisan BS. Cheat on your taxes and it's a crime but you won't find that it in the Criminal Code. Lie on your prospectus, abscond with corporate money that should go to taxpayers and it's a crime but you won't find that in the Criminal Code. If you dumped toxic chemicals directly into Lake Ontario, it's a crime and you could go to jail but there's nothing in the Criminal Code about it.

    Conduct electoral fraud and it's a crime, but you won't find that in the Criminal Code either.

    The definition of "crime" – the only definition that there is – I provided up above. Do a search for the word "crime" or "criminal" in the Criminal Code itself and you'll see what I mean.

    Second, what does trivial or not have to do with whether it is a "crime" or not? The Criminal Code criminalizes all sorts of trivial activity. That's not prevaricating. It's a fact.

    The Conservatives broke the law. That's the important part. The very real part. Whether you call it a "crime" or not, I really don't care. That is splitting hairs and trying to refocus the discussion on the meaning of "is". Any focus on a single word like "crime" is what is prevaricating.

  • tedbetts

    Forgot my "third" and "fourth".

    Third, the reason newspapers don't call somone a criminal unless they are convicted of a crime is not because of whether it is a Criminal Code crime or not. They don't because, until there is a conviction – and that is exactly what the Crown Prosecutor is seeking here – they have defamed the subject person.

    Fourth, if those words have this "very specific, commonly understood meaning" – a meaning I note you say is contrary to what the dictionary says it means – do please provide a reference for this "very specific, commonly understood meaning". I'd be very interested in this non-dictionary usage and meaning of the term, because even the law dictionaries don't define crime (or here, here and, for good measure, there's also good Ol' Oxford ) in your "very specific, commonly understood meaning".

    Maybe it's not so commonly understood or specific as you think?

  • Matlock

    I'm not trying to argue with you on the technical definition – I agree totally, these are not criminal charges as they do not fall under the Criminal Code. I agree with you there.

    What I'm trying to get at is there are many non-lawyer types out there who don't. And I'd bet many – incorrectly or not – would perceive that someone who is facing jail time (and even moreso someone who is sentenced to jail time) to be a criminal. It's the perception that I'm talking about.

    For example, the Tories also advocate for 6 month minimums for offenders with six pot plants. The Elections Act provides for sentences up to 6 months for certain violations. Legally, the former is a criminal and the latter is not. I believe the average layperson wouldn't make this distinction.

  • Matlock

    Oops, I missed an edit (just wanted to make grammatical sense):

    I'm not trying to argue with you on the technical definition – I agree totally, these are not criminal charges as they do not fall under the Criminal Code. I know the definition.

    What I'm trying to get at is there are many non-lawyer types out there who don't. And I'd bet many – incorrectly or not – would perceive that someone who is facing jail time (and even moreso someone who is sentenced to jail time) to be a criminal. It's the perception that I'm talking about.

    For example, the Tories also advocate for 6 month minimums for offenders with six pot plants. The Elections Act provides for sentences up to 6 months for certain violations. Legally, the former is a criminal and the latter is not. I believe the average layperson wouldn't make this distinction.

  • tedbetts

    Matlock, just to clarify for you, there is no "technical definition" of "crime" other than what is in the dictionary. These are criminal charges in every technical, strict or other definition there is.

    They have been charged with illegal conduct. They are being prosecuted by a Crown Attorney. If the Crown wins it will be a "conviction" not an accounting interpretation or administrative ruling. If they are convicted, they could face jail time. The conviction goes on their criminal record for which they would require a pardon to erase. By any definition this is a "criminal offence".

  • Crit_Reasoning

    Yeesh. I'm saying that you shouldn't use bullsh*t rhetoric to label people as "criminals" even though they aren't guilty of a crime. That's not a "technicality". That's common sense.

  • Bill Greenwood

    The Liberals are on thin ice here, too. IIRC there are a handful of Librano MP's who, in violation of the Canada Elections Act, haven't paid off their leadership campaign loans. Plus there's that little ongoing fraud and racketeering scheme (under US law they'd have been prosecuted under the RICO statutes) called Adscam…
    Yes, it's old news but here's the deal- Let's say a guy steals your car. Ten years on, he moves next door to you and lo and behold he's still got your car. You can forgive him and then he's got your car AND your forgiveness. Me? I don't forgive nobody who steals from me. Ever. You want to forgive? Go ahead. But, every thief in the land is going to want your address…..

  • Crit_Reasoning

    Legally, the former is a criminal and the latter is not. I believe the average layperson wouldn't make this distinction.

    Matlock, I don't care whether the average layperson would make this distinction. I'm just saying that people who know better (for example, our elected representatives and people in the legal profession) should probably be more judicious when they describe people as "criminals".

  • Matlock

    "Me? I don't forgive nobody who steals from me. Ever."

    I take it Jack Layton can count on your vote next election then? (…. or the Greens, I suppose)

  • Jan

    A court has approved the extension on the leadership campaign loans.

  • McC_

    interesting use of 'ongoing' in "that little ongoing fraud and racketeering scheme … called Adscam" how exactly do you mean 'ongoing'? Are you alleging that sponsorhips are still being used to kick money back to Liberals and or Conservatives under this Government? That's heavy stuff.

  • Matlock

    My admittedly glib remark aside, yes I do wonder about the Liberal leadership campaign loans.

    Is any investigation into that ongoing? My only guess might be that the in-and-out allegations date to late 2005, not paying off the leadership loans would be a more recent infraction (2008 or 2009?). One investigation at a time, maybe?

  • Matlock

    Well, there's my answer right there. Thanks Jan!

  • Crit_Reasoning

    Let me get this straight. You're arguing that one can accurately describe a Canadian citizen as a "criminal" even if that person hasn't been charged criminally, and isn't facing criminal charges?

    Also, you're saying that people who dump toxic chemicals directly into Lake Ontario wouldn't face criminal charges?

    You're saying that people who abscond with corporate money wouldn't be charged criminally?

    Sure, the Criminal Code isn't the only Code or Act in Canada that defines when people can prosecuted criminally. But the four Conservatives in question aren't even facing criminal charges.

  • E_B_

    I usually find you to be pretty reasonable, and I do respect your opinion, but this strand of yours seems out of character. You are taking a very narrow definition here, and I am not sure the average person would take such a narrow approach…

    I would think if you asked someone, "Is it a crime if you break the law?", they would not ask if it was a criminal code law or some other law, they would in all likelihood just answer, "Yes". If you asked the follow up question, does that make the perpetrator a criminal, I bet more often than not, they would again answer yes.

  • tedbetts

    I have no idea at all where you get any of that.

    How do you conclude I think dumping toxic chemicals isn't a criminal charge if I say "it's a crime" or that absconding with corporate money isn't a criminal charge if I say "it's a crime"?

    Those are offenses under environmental laws and securities laws, respectively, just like breaking election laws are offences under elections laws. They are all criminal charges. They are all crimes.

    The Conservative argument seems to be that just because it is not in the criminal code, it isn't a "crime". That's BS and has no connection to any defintion of the word.

    They have been charged with unlawful conduct. The charges have been brought, not by an administrator or bureaucrat but a Crown Prosecutor who calls the conduct clearly "illegal" based upon a review of "voluminous" evidence. The Crown Prosecutor is seeking a conviction. A conviction could lead to jail time.

    You can argue this is minor or not.

    But in what way is this not a criminal charge?

  • Crit_Reasoning

    Thanks for the compliments, EB. In this case, I'm just making the point that Canada is a country with this thing called "Criminal Law" that defines offences for which people can be charged criminally.

    The average Joe might use the word "criminal" indiscriminately (pun intended). But people who know better probably shouldn't.

  • Matlock

    "I don't care whether the average layperson would make this distinction."

    Fair enough, to each their own. I'd personally think that's a discussion for a blog on jurisprudence rather than politics.

    On a political blog, perception is everything.

  • tedbetts

    Technically, Finley and Gerstein will only be criminals if they are actually convicted of these charges. That is the only "technical" question. These are criminal charges.

  • Crit_Reasoning

    Those are offenses under environmental laws and securities laws, respectively, just like breaking election laws are offences under elections laws. They are all criminal charges. They are all crimes.

    Oh, for crying out loud. Yes, of course those examples are all crimes. That's exactly the point I just made above. It's not about the Criminal Code or any other statute people might possibly be criminally charged under. It's about the nature of the charges themselves. It's about whether or not people are being criminally charged.

    There is no possibility that those four Conservatives are going to be found guilty of a crime, because they aren't even being charged with an indictable offence. Yet you, a lawyer, feel justified in calling them criminals.

  • Keith in Brampton

    OK; "lawbreaking scum" then.

  • tedbetts

    You could argue that calling them criminals is over the line because they actually have not been convicted, yet, on these criminal charges. That is a technicality on which you are correct.

  • Crit_Reasoning

    I don't have a problem if you want to call them "lawbreaking scum". That's your prerogative. It's the misuse of the words "crime" and "criminal" that I object to.

  • Crit_Reasoning

    Third, the reason newspapers don't call somone a criminal unless they are convicted of a crime is not because of whether it is a Criminal Code crime or not.

    How about someone who is convicted of a summary offence rather than a criminal offence? Do you think it's proper journalistic practice to refer to people convicted of summary offences as "criminals"?

    Maybe it's not so commonly understood or specific as you think?

    I appreciate that your argument hinges on the ambiguity of the word "crime". Let's explore how that word is used in practice by the legal community. Do you think there's a consensus in Canada's legal community that it's appropriate to represent summary charges as "criminal charges" and those convicted of summary offences as "criminals"?

  • chet

    You're right. The average Canadian who's trying to get by, feed their family, put their kids in music lessons, hoping their job is more secure this year than the last, worried about the value of their RRSP on which they'll have to live in a few years….

    they want to hear about Bev Oda….

    partisan liberals have their finger on the pulse of Canadians, they do…

    as for virtually every poll putting the Liberals in the mid twenties (and far less in vast swaths of the country) you can blame all that on the meanie Harper….no reason for introspection….

    I say…keep at er.

  • gottabesaid

    There's the politics of these events and then there's the non-political ramifications of these events.

    You and many other people, of whatever political persuasion, are at the extremes. One extreme says "the Conservatives have to be voted out because of this." The other extreme is "Canadians don't care, please just drop it."

    If the Bev Oda is found in contempt (and I stress if, since the speaker is still taking this under advisement), this is a big deal for the health of the institution, even if there is no corresponding resonance in the public. If she is found in contempt, there must be consequences — not for the sake of embarrassing the Conservatives and weakening their political support, but for the health of the institution. The consequences shouldn't necessarily be the Conservatives being turfed from office, but there needs to be consequences nonetheless.

    The same logic applies to this in-and-out deal. If wrongdoing was committed — and notice I said 'if' — it can't be whitewashed. Was it as bad as Adscam? No. Nevertheless, I personally hold the government to a higher standard than that… I'm not going to ignore wrongdoing up until the point where it's as bad as Adscam.

    I'll agree with you that the Conservatives, when it comes to managing the day-to-day concerns of Canadians, have done an adequate job. Certainly, they haven't given the public a reason to overwhelmingly reject them and choose the Liberals or somebody else. But these 'little matters' that don't resonate with the public, like Bev Oda or the in-and-out deal, can't be allowed to slide, if indeed transgressions were made. It doesn't just reduce the accountability of the present government, but for every government to follow. You're right, that doesn't seem to be of much concern to the general public. That doesn't mean these incidents should be ignored.

    I'll also agree with you that the Liberals are in desperate need of some introspection. However, in light of these incidents, the government might be wise to engage in a little introspection as well.

  • tedbetts

    Where is this mysterious definition, CR, the one you keep referring to?

  • McC_

    Excellent comment gottabesaid, but I thought you were going to stop banging your head into solid masses?

  • gottabesaid

    I know, I know… just a pet peeve. I'll entertain arguments why Bev Oda is innocent, and I'll entertain arguments why there was no transgression in the in-and-out scheme, but I can't abide the excuse that 'it doesn't matter' because Canadians don't happen to be tuning in. Government accountability should always matter. If we let it slide, we all lose (eventually, even die-hard Conservative partisans like chet, too).

  • gottabesaid

    I'd also add that we might get better governance if partisans did a better job of holding their own parties' leadership to account rather than defaulting to a 'defend at all costs' position (and it's not just rabid Conservatives who are guilty of this one). If the rank and file demand better, by corresponding with their party or, god forbid, holding back donations, the party might behave better. I hope, if things don't go the Conservatives' way on this Oda situation or in the in-and-out scheme, there will be some Conservatives in the rank-and-file who will demand better of Stephen Harper and Co. — rather than, say, defaulting to the old standbys of bellyaching about liberal media bias, liberal judges, liberal speaker, etc.

  • Bill Greenwood

    In fairness, "ongoing" does tend to imply that it's current. In this context, I'm saying that it went on for years, and did so because it was successful at siphoning taxpayers' cash.
    It was "ongoing" because people wanted it to be. It only stopped becuase they got caught. More importantly, because the style and structure of Adscam mirrored what the US justice system calls "racketeering", it deserves to be called such. The intent of Adscam was clearly not so much to enrich the Liberal Party per se, as it was to enrich members of the Liberal Party and their associates. The vast majority of the missing millions didn't disappear into the Librano fundraising machine. It went into Benz's, Bayliners, and Palm Beach condo's.
    Gangsterism it was, and gangsterism it remains, and the comparison between Adscam and the In-and-Out deal is like the comparison between stealing a car and getting a speeding ticket.

  • McC_

    your "there's" (short for 'there is') also communicates that what you're describing as 'ongoing' is doing so in the present tense.

  • McC_

    couldn't agree more.

  • Crit_Reasoning

    Do you think there's a consensus in Canada's legal community that it's appropriate to represent summary charges as "criminal charges" and those convicted of summary offences as "criminals"?

  • Crit_Reasoning

    Do you think there is a useful distinction to be made between summary charges and criminal indictments?

  • tedbetts

    It's naturally way more complicated and less offensive than Conservatives try hard to make it seem. Take Ken Dryden for example. He has a campaign "debt", but the only one owed any money by him is… Ken Dryden. He lent his campaign money to pay staff. Elections Canada won't let him pay himself back. And I suspect that they know if they tried to insist, they would lose on Charter grounds which would throw the whole set of rules into question.

  • tedbetts

    Of course. But it is not the substance of the offence that distinguishes them. The difference between a summary offence and an indictable offence is the level of seriousness of the crime such that for the former you have a more streamlined process because the severity of the punishment for the crime is less onerous, whereas the process for the latter is more robust because the severity of the punishment for the crime is more onerous.

    The point is a summary offence is still a crime, just a less severe crime. Here is a useful comparison of the two.

  • tedbetts

    I don't think I have called them "criminals" because they have only been accused of a crime so far and not convicted.

    But they will be if they are convicted. If convicted, anytime you do a criminal check on Doug Finley, you will see this conviction. To remove it, he will have to go get a pardon, soon to be made a much more difficult thing by Harper.

  • Bill Greenwood

    For context, does anyone here honestly think that the word "criminal", or "criminal charges" would be be bandied about by many members of the national punditry if Elections Canada stepped up to the plate and decided to lay charges against the Liberal Party royalty for failing to pay off their leadership race debts?
    It's a valid question to ask in this debate, and most of us here know the answer to that question is "No." Does failing to pay off those debts constitute corruption? No. Nor does the "In-and-Out" scheme.
    Both of these instances involve the use or mis-use of monies willfully donated to the political parties in question. I despise the Librano's for what they are- liars, cheats, and thieves- but, I won't call them corrupt for failing to pay off campaign debts. I will call them corrupt for hatching and carrying on a plan that was specifically designed to illegally siphon taxpayers cash, which is far from willfully donated.
    It was illegal, as well as morally and ethically reprehensible, yet you will not find a high-ranking member of the Librano family who has been willing to stand up and renounce his or her association with the Liberal Party because of it. That alone speaks volumes.
    Compare that to, say, Lyle Oberg who turned his back on the Alberta Conservatives over deficit spending. (just to use one example.)

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