Beyond The Commons

Beyond The Commons

Aaron Wherry covers all the goings-on in and around Parliament Hill. Follow Aaron on Twitter: @aaronwherry

The Commons: The House rules

by Aaron Wherry on Wednesday, March 9, 2011 7:44pm - 100 Comments

The Scene. Shortly after 3:30 pm, the Speaker rose and over the next 17 minutes neatly explained how he had come to find that the government had breached the privileges of the House of Commons for the second and third times in 12 months. Charges of contempt may now follow.

So there. And so what now?

Just an hour before Mr. Milliken’s latest decisions, there was a great burst of laughter, seemingly from a member of the government side, when a Liberal dared report one of last night’s votes as an expression of the “Canadian people’s House.” Perhaps his seatmate had, at that precise moment, told him a very funny, but entirely unrelated, joke. Hopefully that’s all it was. But if we’ve come to the point where the very words seem humorous, the very notion ridiculous—and to no less than a member of this place—then we perhaps have a larger problem. One that no ruling of the Speaker will be able to remedy.

The afternoon began with a strongly worded indictment. “Mr. Speaker, one minister in the government is charged with misleading the House, another has turned his department into Conservative Party re-election central, and nine sitting Conservative MPs took money from taxpayers in an election fraud scheme. As if that is not quite enough, the Prime Minister decided to rename the Government of Canada after himself,” Michael Ignatieff reported. “Does the Prime Minister not understand that these actions damage Canadian democracy?”

The Prime Minister seemed to feel otherwise. “Mr. Speaker,” he responded, “I do not agree with any of those things.”

This is the Prime Minister’s way, to shrug either figuratively or physically. He strives to minimize.

The more demonstrative responses of late have been assigned to his parliamentary secretary, the dutiful and enthusiastic Pierre Poilievre. Mr. Poilievre is like a dancing elephant at the circus. The opposition members ask their questions, or at least air their accusations, and Mr. Poilievre jumps up to do his routine, shuffling for the entertainment of the Conservative MPs in the crowd. For the most part this routine involves delighting his audience with some half-accusation of wrongdoing on the part of the members’ opposite. Sometimes this takes the form of a singalong.

The case the dancing elephant seems to make is at least mildly novel. Accused of kicking democracy in the shins, the defence is essentially that everyone else also possesses feet. And the opposition, either functionally unable or simply constrained by the time limits of Question Period, has failed repeatedly to enunciate the incongruity—content, instead, to simply point out that only the Conservative side has been charged, a counter that only bolsters the government’s thinly veiled conspiracy theorizing.

“Come on, Mr. Speaker, that is ridiculous,” the NDP’s Libby Davies pleaded, after Mr. Poilievre had taken her first question as an opportunity to cast aspersions back at her.

The government side laughed.

“What we did was legal,” she protested. “What the Conservatives did was illegal.”

The government side laughed some more.

Shortly thereafter, Liberal Judy Foote stood to report that “last night this House, the Canadian people’s House, voted to have this Conservative government repay money it illegally obtained from election fraud” and there was that audible guffawing. And awhile after that, the Speaker stood and made his calls to seriousness, punctuated with old Latin.

Before this it was Mr. Harper, in opposition, who demanded seriousness of Paul Martin’s government. And before that it was a government famously dubbed the “friendly dictatorship.” And before that it was a prime minister who dismissed opposition MPs as “nobodies.” We can debate whether this is a cycle or a spiral. In either case there would seem to be a demand—either as old as democracy itself or new to our present situation—that somebody do something. The Speaker merely officiates. It is ultimately the House, and its members, and the voters who empower those individuals, who rule.

The Stats. Ethics, 18 questions. The environment and the budget, four questions each. Sports, poverty and veterans, two questions each. Crime, the Toronto Stock Exchange, securities regulation, the economy, Spain and aboriginal affairs, one question each.

Stephen Harper, Pierre Poilievre and Jason Kenney, five answers each. Christian Paradis, Peter Kent, Vic Toews, Peter MacKay, Gary Lunn, Stockwell Day, Diane Finley and Jean-Pierre Blackburn, two answers each. John Baird, Rob Nicholson, Tony Clement, Ted Menzies, Gary Goodyear, Diane Ablonczy and Gerry Ritz, one answer each.

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  • LaxAtlDfwYow

    A few small visceral reactions…

    - the Speaker's rulings, however embarrassing in Ottawa, matter little or not at all to the vast majority of the electorate.
    - while the LPC seems to have become moderately competent at playing their hand, I expect little direct impact on their electability
    - these rulings seem to put the NDP in a more difficult position than the CPC in that to avoid an election that many claim they do not want, the NDP must now turn 180 degrees and support the CPC on a budget vote or earlier confidence vote.
    - the CPC's raw financial, organizational and apparent killer instinct advantages will only be reinforced by today's rulings. Expect urgent fund-raising letters to go out in days pleading for money to fight off the coalition attacks on Minister Oda and the fundamental right of Cabinet confidence.
    - the LPC is at best fighting an asymmetrical war with guerrilla tactics against a vastly superior conventional foe. In such situations, the best the guerrillas can hope for is to extend the fight and avoid an outright loss (i.e., a CPC majority).

    Harper's governance has been despicable. But his politics are usually impenetrable.

    • Iwaslied2

      It needs to matter to Canadians as MP are us their our representatives and it is our money. With holding costing on the a bill is not telling Canadians how much of our hard earned tax dollars will be spent. Not telling the truth on a financing decision to an organization is lying and misdirecting to us the Canadian people and tax payers.

      • ConBot

        Sad but true LaxAtlDfwYow.

  • FVerhoeven

    Milliken quoted this: “…the Speaker should ask himself, when he has to decide whether togrant precedence over other public business to a motion which aMember who has complained of some act or conduct as constitutinga breach of privilege desires to move, should be, not―do I consider that, assuming that the facts are as stated, the act or conductconstitutes a breach of privilege, but could it reasonably be held to bea breach of privilege, or to put it shortly, has the Member an arguablepoint? If the Speaker feels any doubt on the question, he should, in my view, leave it to the House.”

  • FVerhoeven

    Furthermore, these are Milliken's own words: "It is with this principle in mind that I have taken great care to study theevidence in view of the very serious allegations regarding the conduct of aMinister, who as a result has been subjected to harsh and public criticismwhich has been potentially damaging to her reputation."

  • FVerhoeven

    Furthermore: "The Minister has acknowledged this, and hascharacterized her own handling of the matter as “unfortunate”. Yet as isevident from hearing the various interventions that have been made sincethen, the confusion persists. As the Member for Scarborough―RougeRiver told the House, “[This] has confused me. It has confused Parliament.It has confused us in our exercise of holding the government to account,whether it is the Privy Council, whether it is the Minister, whether it is publicofficials; we cannot do our job when there is that type of confusion.”

  • FVerhoeven

    The speaker of the House indicated here that the House has the privilegde to clear up the confusion. That's it.

    But if the opposition does not want to hear Minister Oda's side, or if the opposition parties have already made up their mind BEFORE the process of further clearing up this confusion, then they are guilty of misleading the House, and are guilty of being prejudiced.

    If the opposition parties are serious about the state of our democracy, they must take their responsibility seriously, not playing games by being dishonest while accusing the government of being dishonest!!

    • OriginalEmily1

      Was there something wrong with the transcript that you had to repost it all again?

      • FVerhoeven

        Do I think something is wrong? Yes. When reading the responses here on the board, it is obvious that very few posters have actually read the speaker's ruling first hand. They may take Wherry at his word and that scares me more than anything.

        "Charges of contempt may now follow." Right of the bat, Wherry concludes. The word 'may' is inserted just in case, but of course what difference does it make. The tone has been set and that's what counts for Wherry.

        But if you have read the Milliken report, then how could you disagree with my posting you've just responded to?

        • OriginalEmily1

          Everyone here is aware of what the Speaker said except Cons apparently.

          Your wish to rant about everyone being against you is no reason to repost the whole thing.

          • FVerhoeven

            I don't rant because people are against me. I couldn't care less if people are against me. What I do care about is the act of reasoning. And many on the board here cannot express a sense of reason.

            Do you reason it would be the proper conduct for the opposition parties to NOT listen to what Minister Oda has to say for clearing up the confusion? Mininster Oda had not been found guilty of anything by the speaker. The speaker has merely indicated that the House has the privilege to sort out the confusion.

            How would one clear up a confusion? By listening to both sides. I can't say Wherry has an open ear for listening to both sides.

          • OriginalEmily1

            Since Cons have been charged in one case, and found with a good case for contempt against them in 2 others…3 in a year if you're counting…. I'd say you were just ranting.

          • Jan

            Have you been out of the country – the opposition has been asking her to clear up the confusion for weeks.

          • brooster2

            OK, Ms. Oda, go outside and have a smoke now. We have paid help to deal with this.

          • Enslaved

            Liberals like Wherry operate under the doctrine of 'the reason of unreason'.

  • FVerhoeven

    Same BS when people claim that the PM was not in his right to prorogue the House. Of course he had the right. Only PM has the right, by asking the GG that it be granted. No one else has the right to ask for the granting of prorogation.

    Now, we may not all agree on the fact that the PM did ask for the prorogation to be granted, but such can be voted upon come election time. We, as the people, cannot tell the PM when or when not to use his rights. That would be absurd. We are now to believe that anyone BUT the PM has the rigth to decided on when it is appropriate to ask for prorogation and when it is not? So everyone else's opinion counts except the opinion of the PM? That's absurdity at its highest.

    • OriginalEmily1

      The PM does not have the 'right' to prorogue the House. He has to ask the permission of the GG.

      She gave her permission….twice…but he could not do it on his own.

      And yes the people can tell him not to use his permission slip….he's our employee. One we have the right to fire.

      • FVerhoeven

        Can you read, OriginalEmily1? Can you? Well,, then go back to that which you responded to here, and read it again.

        This country is in deep trouble if the average reading skills are as low as yours.

        And so in trouble it is…..

        • OriginalEmily1

          Have a stiff drink, and go to bed.

          • FVerhoeven

            Why would I need a stiff drink? You think I can't take you and your ignorance on in a sover mode? Any day!

            And now I should take your advice when to go to bed? My, first the likes of you tell me to put my kids in daycare, to wear a helmet when biking around town, and to blindly accept that you have the expertise to decide when prorogation is appropriate or not. Good grief. Put me in a straight jacket and be done with it. That is what the likes of you want. You refuse to reason with people because you are incapable of reasoning. You are afraid of reasoning.

          • OriginalEmily1

            LOL Okay, so NO stiff drinks for you, you've already been there….'sover mode' indeed.

            Hon, at the moment you can't take anything on, so give it a rest.

          • FVerhoeven

            Emily's next tactic: spring in super fake mode to save the day.

            If only you knew how incapable of reasoning you are. I would love nothing more than to have a debate with you. Not to win, but to have an open honest debate about the issue at hand.

            Why are you so easily whipped up by empty claims being made? Why?

          • OriginalEmily1

            If only you knew how drunk you sound.

        • Thwim

          Problem is, you're both playing semantics.

          Technically, the PM has every right to call on the GG for a prorogation, not the people of Canada.
          Technically, the PM has no right to prorogue the house himself.

          So technically, you're both right in your limited spheres.

          That being said, realistically the PM calls for a prorogation against the wishes of the people of Canada at his or her peril. So if you want to talk real world rather than legal weasel, you're wrong, FV.

          Also realistically, the GG does not refuse the PM when he calls for prorogation. This has been made abundantly clear. So if you want to talk real world rather than legal weasel, you're also wrong, Emily.

          And finally. Who gives a flying?

          The fact remains whether he was entitled to ask, whether it was him or the GG that does the proroguing, a large number of people across Canada were not impressed. That is against the spirit of democracy, even if everything about it was within the letter.

          • OriginalEmily1

            The GG can refuse the PMs request.

          • Thwim

            So you're sticking with the weasel. Understood.

            The GG also can inspect the troops naked if he/she desires. Realistically, it ain't happening.

          • OriginalEmily1

            No, I'm sticking with the constitution.

            The GG's one and only job is to make the call…be the referee….do the hard decision. The rest is just make-work window-dressing.

            If the PM could make the decision all by himself….we don't need a GG…and our entire constitutional monarchy is invalid.

          • Thwim

            Yes. You're being a legal weasel. That's what I said. I'm not arguing your facts. Technically, you're correct. Realistically, ain't happening.

          • OriginalEmily1

            This country is run by laws, not by men.

            If you want to fight for Harp's right to usurp the GG's job…be my guest.

          • Thwim

            I'm not fighting for anything other than for you to realize that just because you're technically correct doesn't mean your point is worth anything. Yeah. The GG has the right to refuse. The GG won't. This has been made abundantly clear. Do I like it? Hell no. Do I live in the reality where that's the case? 'fraid so.

            Which means that arguing about it is like arguing whether unicorns prefer oats or carrots. It's usless wanking at best, a distraction from points that might actually have value at worst. In either event, it adds nothing to the discussion other than noise.

            And my ultimate point is.. this is the problem when people argue semantics. A tale told by idiots, signifying nothing.

          • OriginalEmily1

            So you make all this noise, just to say it's pointless making noise, because ultimately nothing matters?

            I see.

          • Thwim

            What can I say, I'm a bit of an optimist. I thought something might eventually be able to get through that skull of yours which would improve the discussion for everybody around here.

            Point taken.

          • OriginalEmily1

            The other half of your name is Think.

            Do so.

  • Anders

    I consider myself to be relatively pragmatic and in the centre of the political spectrum, and I imagine there are a large number of Canadians who are in a similar position. I have been unimpressed with the behaviour of the Conservatives over the last few months, and some their actions over the past five years have left an unsavoury taste in my mouth.

    Despite all of this, I do not feel Mr Ignatieff and the Liberals have offered me a meaningful alternative. As a voter, they have offered me little evidence that their economic policies (I focus on economic issues given the fragile state of the global economy over the past few years) are an improvement over the Conservatives. As a voter in Western Canada, I haven't seen much evidence that the Liberals have made a genuine effort to change their reputation in the West as being the party of Ontario and Quebec.

    Although I'm not particularly fond of the Conservatives right now, I feel the only meaningful way to express my displeasure – not voting for them – is a step too far for me to take, the reason being that I don't have the evidence to trust the Liberals (or anyone else) to do a better job. As I can't trust the Liberals to do better, it leaves me to think about how they could do worse, which is something that greatly disturbs me.

    • Reverend_Blair

      I don't think Harper has been doing a good job with the economy at all. He denied there was a recession until we were deep into it. He refused to do anything about the recession until he was forced to. We lost high-wage, high-benefit jobs and he's replaced them with low-wage, low (or no) benefit jobs. His bizarre mistrust of science has us moving backwards to the position of hewers of wood and haulers of water instead of ahead to a knowledge-based technology. He's failed to protect us from high fuel prices, a major problem for farmers and truckers. Now those fuel prices are pushing the cost of food up, a real problem for those people forced out of good jobs and into low-paying jobs. He's gone deep into deficit while wasting taxpayer money on partisan advertising. He spent a billion dollars on the G-20. In spite of his tough talk, the size of government has skyrocketed. He's cutting corporate taxes, to no real advantage, when we can't afford it. He pushed the HST on BC and Ontario (he tried to push it here in Manitoba too, but we told him to take a walk).

      Can the Liberals do better? Well, it would be difficult for them to do worse.

    • Thwim

      Seems reasonable. I would ask though, what are the economic policies of the Liberals that you find offer no improvement over the CPC policies? (Implicit in that question is the question of what, exactly, are the CPC policies?)

      And of course the kicker to that is, in a government where the CPC is hiding even financial matters from the house and opposition, where their financing directives to the tune of millions of dollars are reversed with a hastily scrawled note for no apparant reason other than that's what they felt like at the time, are you really sure you know what the CPC economic policies actually are, or are you just holding on to a figment of what conservatives used to be — a figment which no longer has significant evidence supporting it in this government.

      • Anders

        Thanks for the reply. To ensure that I'm not viewed as some sort of Conservative Party 'spin-doctor' as somebody else has suggested, let me say that I will be the first to agree with you that the previous Liberal governments' policies vis-a-vis Canadian banks was smart, and that it did indeed help ensure the stability of our financial system during the recession. In fact I was quite displeased when the Conservatives claimed credit for the stability of our banking system as I was well aware of their policies whilst they were in opposition. So I will give credit where credit is due, and the previous Liberal government did a very good thing by having stringent banking regulations.

        Having said all this, I do agree with their decision to lower the GST by 2% and help BC and Ontario implement the HST, as I think it is important to transfer tax room to the provinces and I think the HST is a better alternative to the old GST+PST system. I also think their stance on corporate income tax rates is sound, as it is again an attempt to lower federal taxes so as to allow the provinces more tax room (Since the Provinces are responsible for some very expensive programs – i.e. health care, education – I think they should have more tax room in order to raise revenue for said programs). I also think a single securities regulator is good policy, considering Canada is a bit backwards in this regard compared to other Western nations (and even though I am from Western Canada, I would hope that a large percentage of the experts at the OSC would stay-on in the new regulator, and I have no problem with it being headquarted in Toronto).

        I would hope that if the Conservatives attained a majority, they would return to their fiscally conservative ideals and start trimming the fat in terms of federal spending so as to reduce the deficit, and focus on the federal governments' core responsibilities: defence, foreign affairs, international trade, and monetary policy. The only additional responsibility I would give them is my aforementioned point on having a single securities regulator.

        Thwim – you made some other valid points, and I do have positions on them. I just didn't want this comment to get too long!

        • Thwim

          I like your middle paragraph. Valid points.. I might debate you on some of them (specifically the benefits of GST reduction and lowering corporate income taxes) but they're certainly reasonable ones to be going with.

          However it does seem to me that you're basing your preference not on anything we have evidence for, but rather a hope and a prayer that the CPC really does have a hidden agenda that they've been afraid to show while in minority government.

          And you're doing this in spite of evidence that's directly to the contrary. I refer specifically to the increase in spending in the PMO office, and to things like the non-bidded contracts Flaherty awarded to his friends as "speechwriters". These are things for which even minority government can't be an excuse.. so to believe they'll change in a majority government doesn't make a lot of sense to me.

          • FVerhoeven

            I agree with you, Thwim, that all political parties award friends when they get the chance. But the solution is not for us to complain about it by sticking it to one party in particular, but to stick it to all parties equally. Then, if the Canadian voter would express an outrage toward the practice and not toward any party in particular, then we might be on to something.

  • katie smith

    Really? You don't care whether "the Harper Government" is full of "criminals" and that they came to power promising transparent and accountable government – but that was just stuff "the Harper Party" said to get elected? …

    Your "lingering doubts" about the Liberal's economic policies (because you unlike 98% of Canadians actually understand them enough to have concerns – I don't think the LIberals even know what they are) and lack of Liberal support in the West outweighs all that? Really?

    Seriously sounds like it was written by Conservative Party spin-doctors …

  • FVerhoeven

    Could you back up your Mulroney comparison.

    • FVerhoeven

      If neurobiologists would be allowed to have a peek at the workings of your brain while in operation, they woud find a miracle indeed!

      For what they would find, would be a brainy knot so conveluted, so twisted, so tied up that they would think it impossible for human brains to have such knot while the body's still trying to stand upright.

      Have you ever considered donating the workings of your brain, while alive, for scientific research? I'm sure some researchers would be highly interested. Some might even pay cash for such good find! Give them a call before you do our democratic system more harm than you've already done.

      • Stewart_Smith

        Lol, we disagree and you literally call for my head? I can understand that, but

        before you do our democratic system more harm than you've already done

        is really inexcusable. It leads me to the conclusion that you believe free speech, (at least mine) is damaging to democracy. Fair enough, I'll assume you thought the head thing funny, humor can be tough. I also assume you do not want me commenting on your threads, again no problem, there are plenty of crazy ladies out there to talk with.

        • FVerhoeven

          I am not calling for your head; I am asking for the miracle to be revealed!

          I do not believe free speech can be damaging to democracy; I know that free speech can be damaging to democracy if personal responsibility is not properly understood.

          You assume too much while most voters assume too little, namely that the drag-in of false connections being made, all neatly wrapped up within a long but seemingly presentable diatribe, can fool most anyone.

          Not me. Not any more. Thx.

          • Thwim

            If you could kindly point out the false connections. I apparently don't possess the depth of intelligence which allows me to spot them so easily.

  • FVerhoeven

    The speaker's ruling is about the workings of our democracy. The ruling is about the priviledge of the House and as such must be constantly watched.

    For a good balanced overview of events, read this:
    http://fullcomment.nationalpost.com/2011/03/10/ke…

  • Thwim

    "Otherwise. Yes, it can be different. But that's a lot of work and in their place, the little been rated!"

    Obviously Google Translate isn't quite clear. Care to share with the rest of the class?

  • FVerhoeven

    Democracy and respecting the decency of being human are one and the same thing:

    "I hope the committee that follows up on the Speaker’s rulings gives her an opportunity to read into the record a full and detailed explanation as to what happened and explain the confusion that was created. As a colleague of the members on the committee and as an individual SHE DESERVES THAT CHANCE." (capitals mine).

    http://fullcomment.nationalpost.com/2011/03/10/ke…

  • captcold

    seeing what the partisans in here are talking about, we're all screwed.

    Political parties in Canadia are cabals of lawyers looking for a stream of government cheques.

    It's a shame the partisans can't break away from their tribalism enough to actually be productive and not mired in process.

    Then again, that would hinder their stream of government cheques.

    Which is really at the bottom of our governance travails.

  • FPiorkowski

    Remember a few years past when Chretien stood up in the house and stated that we have a huge economy and it should be expected that a few million dollars can be missing. Todays Liberals have to remember that when you throw mud, some of it sticks to your hand.

  • M_A_D_world

    I think the whole scandal went went "in" one ear and "out" the other for the Conservatives.

  • avr

    Please, please, please severely overplay your hand on this, guys. I'm not joking; both are just further exhibits in the "Too technical and trivially scandalous for normal people to care about" file. Scream about these rulings from now until election day, and it'll guarantee a Conservative majority.

  • madeyoulook

    the Speaker rose and over the next 17 minutes neatly explained how he had come to find that the government had breached the privileges of the House of Commons for the second and third times in 12 months.

    No, he didn't. He found that a prima facie case by the complainant MP(s) was made in each of those three instances, so it's off to committee for study of the latest two.

    He cannot find that privilege has been breached. Only the House of Commons can.

    I am surprised such a regular Commons observer as yourself got confused, here.

  • brooster2

    "Scream about these rulings from now until election day"

    Why, thank you…I believe many will take you up on that. In fact, your invitation calls to mind that old Chinese maxim about being careful what you wish for.

  • Stewart_Smith

    I have heard this type of comment a fair bit, can't say I completely agree. Yes, I agree too technical and trivially scandalous for normal people to care about as long as it is Liberals versus Conservatives. So as long as the Liberals are spouting rhetoric (and not threatening an election) it does not really matter what they say… nobody is listening.

    Now, however it is a ruling by the Speaker that is in question. It is also Elections Canada versus the Conservatives and ultimately a court ruling versus the Conservatives. Regular people look for institutions such as the Speaker of Parliament, Elections Canada and our courts to sort through the political noise.

    Canadians by and large are complacent wrt our democracy, not because of any trust in politicians or political parties. Most Canadians dislike the politicians they vote for and despise the politicians they vote against. However, they admire and respect Canadian institutions. Negative campaigning against Ignatieff is a sure fire winner for the Conservatives, if they now have to attack all of these non-partisan organizations after they have ruled against the Conservatives, they will come off as paranoid losers.

  • Thwim

    So.. you're good with that then? You're good with a government that hides documents and finances from Parliament and the Canadian people?

    And if so, may I quote you on this the next time someone other than the CPC forms government?

  • avr

    Heh, -40? That must have really stung. Keep furiously downvoting, folks, it'll make you feel better about losing.

  • frobisher

    "The case the dancing elephant seems to make is at least mildly novel. Accused of kicking democracy in the shins, the defence is essentially that everyone else also possesses feet. "

    That is a fine turn of phrase. Sad, but fine nonetheless.

  • OriginalEmily1

    Which is why people are now doing end runs around govt to get things accomplished….govts are no longer useful, in fact they've become an obstacle in themselves.

  • chet

    The juxtaposition between the Harper government being seen as a steady hand and the wheel of the HMS Economic Recovery, working tirelessly for Canadians to improve their well being,

    and the incessant petty partisan sniping from the other parties,

    couldn't be more apparent.

    It's no wonder, the more the opposition (and their abettors in the media) play these games, the higher Harper's poll numbers go.

  • Jan

    Is that His Majesty Stephen's Economic Recovery?

  • gottabesaid

    So the speaker got it wrong?

  • canon70

    Parliamentary procedure expert Ned Franks said no government in Canadian history has been cited so many times for ignoring the rights of Parliament. He offered two possible explanations.

    "(The rulings) suggest, to put it kindly, that the government is, at a minimum, ignorant of the rules and principles governing parliamentary democracy and, to put it unkindly, that they don't give a damn and they'll try to get away with what they can."
    Joan Bryden, The Canadian Press

  • mmmm

    I am almost hoping for an election for Aaron's sake. He sounds like he needs at least a week in a warmer, sunnier place to detox. This one was a very despondent post. I don't mean that as a sleight against Aaron, I mean it as a sleight (understatement) against the Harper regime.

  • mmmm

    slight not sleight

  • bettie

    Yes, that would be Ned Franks' opinion. He is voraciously against the government. Most 'experts' are measured in their comments… he is not.

    I think the Conservative government has and is doing a fine job while being sniped at from all angles.

  • FVerhoeven

    And where was Chretien when he announced Canada should join the Kyoto accord? Not in the House to announce it. Not even in Canada to announce it. Did he ever put it to the House???

  • Dave

    Ned Franks' Door No. 2 is the correct door.

  • Enslaved

    Hahahaha… who cares what Red Ned says or thinks? for that matter who cares what Bryden or Wherry think either. If you want to know what these Liberal shills think just go to the Liberal web site. Get the Liberal talking points from the head Liberal not the ass end liberals.

  • FVerhoeven

    HEAR, HEAR!!! MY god, what is wrong with reporters these days! The no longer report, they just spread the gossip. It's the media which should be thouroughly examined, not the politicians perhaps. If the politicians have nothing no media to hang their hats on, things might change for the better!

  • Be_rad

    Technically you are correct. However, the two cases have been referred to committees where, if there is enough time, a majority will decide. this seems like an odd process where somehting that looks and sounds like a trial – of the facts, anyway – is ultimately decided not by an impartial adjudicator but by the political, self interested majority.

    So, in this case, the outcome can be presumed to be found in favour of those who brought the charges, because they control the majority of the "court". If this or any other government had a majority, they could count on being exonerated. So the outcome of those meetings are going to be held in contempt by the partisans whose interests are not upheld and the ultimate question of right and wrong goes unanswered.

    Which brings us back to one man, sitting in a chair, with access to researchers and advisors, looking at the case before him and, in careful, diplomatic language, observing that both cases look and sound like ducks.

  • FVerhoeven

    NO, the speaker didn't get it wrong; Wherry got it wrong, and my bet is that he knows it!

  • FVerhoeven

    MMMMmmmm…..election time – bring it on!

  • FVerhoeven

    Milliken's own words: "The crux of the matter, it seems to me, is this: as the Committee hasreported, when asked who inserted the word “not” in the assessment of theKAIROS funding application, in testimony the Minister twice replied that shedid not know. In a February 14 (Debates, pp. 8115-6) statement to theHouse, while she did not indicate that she knew who inserted the word“not”, the Minister addressed this matter by stating that the “not” wasinserted at her direction. At the very least, it can be said that this hascaused confusion."

  • FVerhoeven

    Furthermore: "At that time, in findingprima facie , I stated at page 8581 of theDebates of February 1, 2002, that I was “prepared, as I must be, to acceptthe minister’s assertion that he had no intention to mislead the House.Nevertheless this remains a very difficult situation.” I then went on toconclude that “the situation before us where the House is left with twoversions of events is one that merits further consideration by an appropriatecommittee, if only to clear the air”.

  • FVerhoeven

    "In keeping with this fairly recent precedent, and mindful of the Mr.Speaker Jerome ruling cited earlier, the Chair is of the view that sufficientdoubt exists to warrant a finding of prima facie in this case. Accordingly, Inow invite the Member for Scarborough―Guildwood to move his motion."

  • Jan

    After playing dumb on all the current issues, Cons suddenly become legal eagles.

  • FVerhoeven

    Jan, how can she clear up any confusion if the opposition has made up its mind beforehand ongoing? The opposition does not accept a sincere apology, the opposition does not believe in none intent. What must the Minister do in order for the confusion to be cleared up?

    Jan why don't you give us a straight answer – for once. Try it.

  • Jan

    The Conservative response today was that the problem was that the opposition didn't ask the right questions, when she appeared before them back in December. She will be back before them soon, and I don't think they will be complaining about the lack of questions.

  • Reverend_Blair

    "What must the Minister do in order for the confusion to be cleared up? "

    After being dishonest and inescapably obtuse for this long? She can resign.

  • Thwim

    There is nothing that can be done because there is no confusion for any reasonable person.

    The minister knew, or ought to have known if she were acting in the capacity of a reasonable person, that the question "Who put the NOT on the document", in the context of a committee attempting to find out responsibility for a directive of government, is of the same meaning as "Who is responsible for directing the NOT be placed on the document"

    To suggest otherwise is simply playing silly buggers, because it was a deliberate avoidance of the thrust of the questioning.

    So she was untruthful by omission. She avoided telling the truth when it was clear to all and sundry what was being looked for.

  • Reverend_Blair

    Except they can't follow the rules.

  • burlivespipe

    Yes, for a government that dabbles in in-and-out schemes, bribery, misappropriation of public funds, forgery and generally bald-faced lying, they've done an exceptional fine job.

  • katie smith

    Since when is taking "the Harper Government" to task for breaking the law sniping?

  • FVerhoeven

    I ask one straightforward question here, and not one of you has the courage to give me an answer.

    And you are accusing Minister Oda for being inescapably obtuse and being dishonest? Once again, what must the Minister answer to clear up the confusion, because THAT – the clearing up of the confusion – is what Milliken has the House given the priviledge of. Clear up the confusion. Be part of the solution, not obstruct solutions at every turn.

  • FVerhoeven

    No, there will not be a lack of questions. The main question is though, are the answers already pre-written by the opposition parties? We know Jack likes to draw up coalition plans prematurely.

  • OriginalEmily1

    The Speaker has made a ruling. The Opposition has a case, so they can take it to the next level. There's your answer.

  • katie smith

    You want an answer? Yes. I would without hesitation accuse Minister Oda of being dishonest and inescapably obtuse … along with being totally ridiculous for inserting a big ugly uneducated looking -NOT- in a letter from CIDA …

    As for solutions, the response of "the Harper Government" to hide her (and I feel sorry for her) pretty much put the kibosh on any constructive results …

  • Reverend_Blair

    I gave you an answer. What you fail to understand is that the "confusion" was caused by Oda being untruthful. As a result, parliament has little or no trust in anything she says. So if she wants to clear up the confusion, she can resign.

  • FVerhoeven

    Oh, and this is also what Milliken has said publically, for everyone to hear:

    " Milliken warned Liberal MPs that if they attempted to use his rulings as the basis for a confidence motion on Wednesday, he would rule them out of order."

  • OriginalEmily1

    I dunno if he said it publically or not, but he certainly said it privately.

    Doesn't stop them making a non-confidence motion, just not solely on his ruling today.

  • burlivespipe

    Hides documents? Why are you misleading people — they only hide SOME documents… in other instances, they FORGED them…

  • katie smith

    Sounds like Question Period is getting more entertaining – though not at all more useful – every day …

    It would help if the Opposition asked actual questions – not accusations cloaked as rhetorical ones. The most common form of Opposition questions, particularly by leaders, that I have seen goes something like this:

    "When will this Prime Minister [or other Minister or other "Harper Government" MP] admit to themselves and the people
    of Canada that he/she/they are a total idiot?"

    Now I am not sure that there is an intelligent way to respond to such questions but the usual reply of "the Harper Government" goes something like this: "I'm not an idiot you are, na na na-na na" … though I believe this tactic did not originate with "the Harper Government" …

    So yes Libby Davies – this is ridiculous, but really, what else is new?

  • Mike514

    LOL! I think you just summarized every single Aaron Wherry post for the past 5 years…

  • madeyoulook

    If the opposition AND government MPs have any respect at all for the traditions of Parliament (and thus, by extension, the people of Canada), they will be EXQUISITELY careful about this process, and the appearance of this process. What's the evidence? How credible is the evidence? And give the "accused" full opportunity to confront that evidence and answer to the charges.

    This really ought to be NO place for partisan chicanery. I hold out very little hope…

  • FVerhoeven

    Sorry, katie, you're not following this conversation correctly. Please, re-read the dialogue and then come back

  • FVerhoeven

    How has Oda been untruthful? She may have made a mistake, but the question is and must remain (see speaker's ruling): Did she act with intent on the mistake? The intent is the confusion to sort out.

  • Reverend_Blair

    Yes, she has been untruthful. Yes she acted with intent, only a fool would think otherwise.

  • FVerhoeven

    I reiterate my question: "HOW has Oda been untruthful?

  • Enslaved

    She hasn't been untruthful, but the rabid Liberals can't except the liberal narrative has failed, even though one of their own (Liberal Speaker Milliken) has said so. Liberal mantra… 'the reason of unreason'.

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