Beyond The Commons

Beyond The Commons

Aaron Wherry covers all the goings-on in and around Parliament Hill. Follow Aaron on Twitter: @aaronwherry

The Commons: John Baird will not be distracted by your democracy

by Aaron Wherry on Thursday, March 10, 2011 6:04pm - 142 Comments

The Scene. The rules of this place require him to address the other side indirectly, but Michael Ignatieff did not bother to look at Peter Milliken as he spoke.

“Mr. Speaker, your rulings yesterday should not have been necessary,” the Liberal leader said, staring down the government side. “A decent government would have complied with the rules of democracy without being forced to, but this is not a decent government.”

There were groans from the Conservatives in attendance.

“This is not the first time, not the second time, but the third time the government has been forced to respect the rulings and order of the House. Now the game is up,” Mr. Ignatieff continued. “If the government actually respects the rulings of the Speaker, will it deliver the documents to the House and will it fire that minister?”

Had the Prime Minister not been away, he could have shrugged for the official record. In Mr. Harper’s place stood Mr. Baird and by Mr. Baird’s estimation this was all one big misunderstanding. “We had considered the information that we had provided to the House,” he explained. “We believe that it responded in substance to the request that had been made by the House.” All the same, he promised to make “every effort” to now comply.

Mr. Ignatieff was not satisfied. “Mr. Speaker, every effort is not good enough,” he declared. “The House order is clear. This is a question of compliance, it is not a matter of discretion.”

After the Liberal had restated his query en francais, Mr. Baird stood. And here he took a stand.

“What is absolutely shocking is that the leader of the Liberal Party is trying to distract Canadians from their priorities,” he cried. “Everywhere I go in my own riding and right across Canada, Canadians are concerned about jobs, they are concerned about the economy, they are concerned about themselves and the future of their families. All we have are these Liberal distractions. We are going to stay focused on jobs. We are going to stay focused on the Canadian economy, even if the Liberals do not want us to.”

Mr. Ignatieff was mystified. Or at least incredulous. “Mr. Speaker, I can barely believe it,” he said. “The government seems to believe that Canadian democracy is a distraction.”

The Liberals side roared.

In fairness to Mr. Baird, there is much to distract the Conservatives these days. In addition to those two rulings of the Speaker, there are the four officials of theirs, including two sitting senators, presently facing charges of violating election laws. There is the government’s recent defeat at the Federal Court of Appeal. There are those questions about how the Immigration Minister conducts his office and why the former integrity commissioner was paid half a million to go away. There are those ninnies whining that the Government of Canada should not be renamed in Mr. Harper’s image and that, whatever we are to call it, the government should not be spending millions in public funds to promote its own cause. And that’s just the last two weeks.

Now, today, there is the Parliamentary Budget Officer claiming the government’s $16-billion commitment to new fighter jets is something closer to a $30-billion commitment.

It was on this that Mr. Ignatieff next questioned the government. “Mr. Speaker, yesterday you ruled that the government has to tell Canadians the truth about the real cost of the stealth fighter aircraft,” he reviewed. “The Conservative government has offered us a guesstimate of $16 billion. The Parliamentary Budget Officer has said it is going to be just about double that at $30 billion. That is $1,000 for every Canadian man, woman and child. When will the government stop lowballing the Canadian public, face the facts and tell them the truth?”

Whenever in doubt, this government generally prefers to double down. Accused of not respecting democracy, it deems democracy a distraction. Accused here of irresponsibly procuring military equipment, Mr. Baird pledged to support the troops with a blank cheque.

“Mr. Speaker,” he said, “there is no denying that the new jet fighters that our air force so desperately needs to replace the CF-18s, which will be 40 years old, will have a price.”

The Liberal side howled at this rather imprecise costing.

“Let me say this,” Mr. Baird went on, warming up now. “The men and women in the Canadian armed forces are prepared to pay the ultimate price. They are prepared to sacrifice. They are brave. What do they count on? They count on the government to provide them with the tools they need. If that means it is going to be $50 a year or $1 a week to provide for Canadian sovereignty and to give our men and women the tools they need to do the job, it is a price that we are prepared to pay.”

The Conservatives leapt up to applaud Mr. Baird’s vaguely budgeted support.

Mind you, $50 per year and $1 per week are roughly equivalent. And a moment later Laurie Hawn, the parliamentary secretary to the Minister of National Defence, stood to explain that the government’s actual commitment “amounts to $25 per Canadian per year” for the next 20 years. And if that is how the government chooses to express its $16-billion commitment, then $50 per Canadian per year for the next 20 years would seem to be closer in to the Parliamentary Budget Officer’s projections.

And so maybe the government has a quibble with the larger number. Or maybe it is not entirely tied to the smaller number. Or perhaps we should add arithmetic to the list of things Canadians do not presently wished to be distracted by.

The Stats. Ethics, 24 questions. The military, five questions. The Canada Revenue Agency and asbestos, two questions each. The economy, employment, forestry, industry, aboriginal affairs and bilingualism, one question each.

John Baird, seven answers. Stockwell Day, five answers. Pierre Poilievre and Laurie Hawn, four answers each. Jim Flaherty, Bev Oda and Christian Paradis, three answers each. Keith Ashfield and Jason Kenney, two answers each. Rona Ambrose, Diane Finley, Denis Lebel, Tony Clement, Vic Toews and James Moore, one answer each.

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  • danby

    We are going to stay focused on the Canadian economy, even if the Liberals do not want us to.”

    I've puked up moonshine that smelled better than the sewage that pours out of Baird

    • Ryan

      What evidence is there that the Liberals want to stay focused on the economy? All I see is "scandal! scandal! scandal!" and liberal heads exploding.

      • Ryan

        Sorry, excuse me.. for them to "stay focused" on the economy would suggest that they were ever focused on the economy. My apologies, honest mistake. Won't happen again!

        • OriginalEmily1

          Ryan, no one is taking you seriously.

          We had a decade long surplus under the Libs

          Harp has not only blown the surplus, but spent us into the biggest deficit in our history

          • Ryan

            Liberals don't take reality seriously, I am noticing.

          • OriginalEmily1

            What you are noticing is the bottom of your glass.

      • Norma

        Harper's idea of helping the economy is to build Prisons and employ Prison Guards- profiting from the misery of others.
        Why don't we "Get Smart on Crime" and invest in Prevention so we don't need so many prisons & have fewer victims.
        That's what I want.

    • Amateur Hour

      Clearly the Conservative Party of Canada has been busy fomenting populist uprisings across the Middle East to encourage futures traders in New York and Hong Kong to jack up the global price of oil, thus benefiting the Canadian economy.

      Evil geniuses.

    • Dave

      John Baird has probably also puked up moonshine that smelled better than the sewage that pours out of himself.

    • Dan Calda

      Should have puked on Baird.

    • Diogenes54

      LOL Danby – can I quote you?

  • brooster2

    Jeez, Baird, is your government a one-trick pony, incapable of providing its much-vaunted leadership on jobs and the economy and respecting the democratic institutions of the nation? I mean, are the two commitments mutually exclusive in your odd little bubble?

    • Dave

      Yes, I think they are.

  • http://rodcroskery.wordpress.com rodcros

    Yep, Harper will support our troops right up until the bomb goes off. Then if they're killed, their bodies are smuggled into the country away from cameras. If they're crippled, though, fugedaboudit! The pension-for-life is a thing of the distant past. "Supporting our troops" is just "a bit of fairly standard political rhetoric*" for Stephen Harper.

    *That's how he described the plagiarized speech from the Australian prime minister which was his statement of position on the war in Iraq.

    • Leo

      Just a reminder, the changes to veterans benifits was voted in during the Liberal government in 2005. Changes are being made, just not fast enough. Stogran is upset he didn't get another term.

      • Jan

        Given what happened with his personal file that is a totally disgusting comment. If you have any class, you will apologize to him for it.

        • Leo

          Get your names straight – Bruyea had his privacy breeched.

  • hollinm

    Well the polls today should cause the inept leader of the official opposition to take a pause with his arrogant tirades and realize that many Canadians think he is arrogant and dishonest.

    • Leo

      Skimming through the main media websites, more and more of the comments are reflecting that.

      The Liberals are at their lowest level in more than a year, and their leader is not making headway on approval. Compared to December, there is a sizeable increase in the proportion of respondents who believe Ignatieff is dishonest (+11) and arrogant (+6).
      http://www.visioncritical.com/public-opinion/6042…

      • Halo_Override

        And the usual suspects from the Repetitive Right whose postings have been a bit thin around here lately have returned with a vengeance in the past few days. Coincidence?

        As Special Agent Dale Cooper once said, when two separate events occur simultaneously pertaining to the same object of inquiry, we must always pay strict attention.

        • Canuck237503

          It would also be lovely to have some actual evidence of any dishonesty or arrogance. Some might say that sham accounting ($16b sham v. $30b reality) or, you know, Bev Oda lying might constitute evidence of dishonesty, or John Baird as exhibit A for arrogance, but, who needs to be distracted by reality?

          • FVerhoeven

            Because the intelligent Canadian voter knows very well that Kevin Page's numbers do not have to be accurate either. It another case of that number against this number. That doesn't mean that the Government numbers are 100% correct, but it does mean that Page's numbers are not 100% correct either. That is what democracy is all about, to freely admit that probably both numbers have somethings to be desired.

          • Canuck237503

            Except that the Tories have an incentive to lowball. The PBO is expected to be impartial, just like the CBO down here. I trust the non-partisan governmental bodies far more than I do ANY political party's estimate.

          • Mike T.

            Quiet, you insolent troop hater!

        • Leo

          TD Webroker is the Holy Grail right now!!! Macleans is pure entertainment, lol!!!

    • hjr

      hollinm, you are a sad joke. Give it up. Just reading your tedious, biased posts is tiresome and you are so depressingly predictable I don't know why you even bother. As soon as I see your name, I know it will be a pro-tory, make no sense, the liberals are always to blame, post. Get a life! If you weren't so boring, I would feel sorry for you. You have serious mental issues. If you care to re-read this particular post, you will realize it doesn't even mske sense. And when it comes to arrogant and dishonest, Stephen Harper is in a class by himself. Now that we know he is going to the royal wedding, we can o nly cringe in anticipation of how he will embarrass us this time. Wonder how much he is paying Laureen to attend with him?

  • John Lemay

    We can see how this government support our troops, Christiane Ouimet who is incompetent gets over 500,000. and told to go home, all in one piece, a soldier in Afganistan loses both his legs and gets 250,000. According to Baird that's all he needs.

  • M_A_D_world

    This government has no one to blame except itself for the constant questioning on parliamentary procedures. Had the letter heads, memos and documents been given some astute attention, then they would be given the time to focus on the economy, jobs and other priorities.
    Had they not chosen to interpret election spending rules to suit themselves they wouldn't be viewed as traitors to public accountability.

  • madeyoulook

    A decent government would have complied with the rules of democracy without being forced to, but this is not a decent government.

    Somehow, my advice memo did not make it to the Liberal QP prep room in time:
    http://www2.macleans.ca/2011/03/10/kangaroo-court…

    • Mike T.

      Polite or not, the comment was more than justifiable.

      • Claudia Lemire

        Mike it might be justifiable and I agree with that, the problem is STRATEGY.

        • Mike T.

          Harper's conduct has done more to undermine accountable government than any prime minister in living memory and you claim to be worried about how the Liberals are playing their cards?

  • madeyoulook

    If the government actually respects the rulings of the Speaker, will it deliver the documents to the House and will it fire that minister?

    Mr. Ignatieff joins Mr. Wherry (and many others) in misunderstanding the Speaker's rulings.

    Definition of prima facie is "at first sight." The Speaker's rulings said "I cannot reject the complaint at first blush, so you may proceed with your motion." The rulings did most certainly NOT say the government must "deliver the documents." The rulings did most certainly NOT find anyone in contempt of Parliament, or for that matter breaching a privilege.

    Mr. Ignatieff, the parliamentarian, is likely deliberately confusing the issue for partisan purposes. Mr. Wherry will no doubt wish to set the record straight out of respect for the excellence in journalism for which he is known.

    • Mike T.

      Intricacies aside, a man deserving of the title honourable would have made the documents available when asked to provide them to the committee, and certainly within hours of the parliament of the country telling him to do so. Applauding him for managing to shamefully drag out the inevitable seems inappropriate.

    • Halo_Override

      According to parliamentary procedure — my old university textbooks are in cardboard boxes at the moment — if the Speaker's rulings are misinterpreted and then misstated in the HoC by MPs as being other than what they are, what are the remedies available to the Speaker to clarify the situation?

      • Halo_Override

        Does anyone know?

        • madeyoulook

          I believe the bigger deal is when an MP questions the Speaker's decisions or — worse — the Speaker's impartiality. THAT gets juices flowing towards "warning" and "naming" a member to be removed from the house.

          But to your specific question, I am not sure there is much a Speaker can do to correct a misstatement, as he cannot enter into debate. I suppose if another MP rises on a point of order to call the misstatement to the Speaker's attention, we might get somewhere, but even then I am not sure.

    • Not Stephen Colbert

      Most of what you say here is about right, but you're somewhat understating what prima facie means. A prima facie case is one in which the evidence, unless rebutted, is sufficient to demonstrate the claim being made. That is, indeed, a fair bit short of an actual finding that the claim is true (there's the whole opportunity-to-rebut-the-evidence part), but I think it's somewhat stronger than "I cannot reject the complaint at first blush".

      You're certainly right, though, that the meaning of the ruling is often being overstated.

      • Mike T.

        On the other hand, does anybody really think Harper is acting properly here?

        • Mike T.

          And if Harper had a justifiable reason for withholding the documents, you think they'd be trumpeting it rather than making up crap.

    • jim

      I'm sure Mr. Ignatieff understands the ruling just fine. I'm sure you're blinded with blue rage but you have to give him that.

      It's not just the Speaker's ruling, it's the process which could potentially lead to punishment for members of a sitting government. Any responsible parliamentarian would be expected to demand adherence to the rules and procedures of the House.

      Ignatieff isn't a threatening character so his demands may seem weak. Harper would be wise to pay heed however with consideration of the global political climate.

      "is likely deliberately confusing the issue for partisan purposes…" Politics. Look to your left. Now back at the screen. Now to your right. Back at the screen. Look at the current government of Canada, have they not subsisted on this tactic as if they made the rules? You yourself described the situation with a very partisan slant. Maybe you should apologize to yourself?

      • FVerhoeven

        You do not understand a word MadeYouLook has been saying in his initial posting, to which all of these are replies.

        Ignatieff does have a responsibility to NOT misinterpret the speaker's ruling. If Ignatieff knowingly misinterprets the speaker's ruling, then Mr.Ignatieff should be held accountable for that likewise. If Bev Oda is accused of spreading confusion, then surely Mr.Ignatieff must be held by the same standards. I know Wherry won't hold him to the same standards, but then I don't come here to be enlightened by Wherry's advice. Trying to find objective reporting on the MacLeans blog has long ago disappeared. Too bad Coyne isn't concerned about the fact, hearing repeatedly that he is sooo concerned about democracy and how it could all be changed for the better. Yeah, right!

        Here Macleans has ample oppurtunity to try and be as objective as possible, to not openly display a partisan outlook, and they manage to blow it every time.

  • Leo

    This "cabinet confidence" appears to be very selective.

    Lukiwski: "My question was whether documents that are considered to be cabinet confidence should have the ability to be protected by confidence, not turned over at the sheer desire of an opposition that may be doing it for strictly partisan purposes."

    Brison: " I disagree completely with the government's abuse of the term ”cabinet confidence”, which does not apply to the costs of government legislation once it is introduced in the House. That parliamentary secretary either does not understand the principle of cabinet confidence or he does not understand the principle of respecting Parliament."

    Breitkreuz: " The member is very familiar with Bill C-68. I put in over 500 access to information requests and many of those were on the cost of that legislation. I have file cabinets full of documents where cabinet confidence was cited as the reason the Liberals would not let me know what the costs were."
    http://www2.parl.gc.ca/HousePublications/Publicat…
    (starts half way down the page)

    • Reverend_Blair

      Ah, Breitkreuz and Lukiwski. Now there's two people who make me ashamed to be from Saskatchewan.

      • Jan

        Trust me, we don't think of these two snake oil salesmen as typical of Sask. Every provonce elects a few of them.

        • MostlyCivil

          Suddenly, being from Winnipeg now seems respectable. Thanks, guys!

  • Olivier

    You knowm you just have to hand it to them, the CPC is very, very good at deflecting problems. So now they're playing the card that these are simple procedural distractions, thus reinforcing the notion that the whole thing is a waste of time and making them look stronger.

    Of course it's despicable and far from the truth but it plays in their favour very well. Well played!

  • chet

    While Harper continues to focus lazer like on the economic recovery, and hence focus on the well being of all of us,

    the opposition plays their partisan games.

    And like the agent for the off-Broadway singer who just doesn't have it, but cheers her on for an encore as if she's stolen the show,

    the media cheerleaders have Iggy believing all of this nonsense really is resonating with people outside the partisan Liberal cocoon.

    And in a few months they'll all be shaking their heads wondering what went wrong.

    • Mike T.

      Y'know, the guy who didn't see the 2008 recession and tried to prevent the very banking regulations that saved our butt shouldn't be allowed within 1000 yards of tinkering with the economy.

      • danby

        The words of John Baird and Chet have inspired me.

        I have just donated $100 to the Liberal Party

        Why?

        Because this government must be held accountable.
        I care far too much about the Canada my kids will inherit to just sit idle

        • Jenn_

          Thank you, Danby.

        • Turd_Ferguson

          I see your $100 and raise you $100!

        • Crit_Reasoning

          Kudos for putting your money where your mouth is.

          • EeeOar

            Except that Danby is putting $25 where his mouth is, and then 38 taxpayers who don't vote are having $2 donated on their behalf. ;-)

          • TimesArrow

            Now now EeeOar, look on the bright side, it could have been $200. :)

            although it does tickle me that there's a possibility a couple of bucks may be coming out of MYL's pocket.

          • MostlyCivil

            Okay, that's all I needed to hear. There's three different parties I can contribute to. Thanks, MYL, for doing your part.

        • TimesArrow

          Good for you D. I just broke down and did the same thing a day or so ago. Hopefully they use it well.

        • FVerhoeven

          I care so much about my kids that I hope they will be able to live out their lives in a world which is still real. My hope is that my kids will be able to distinguish, at all times, that interpretations are being presented on both sides. Not just in the House, but in any house. Some kids will grow up understanding that much, while others will never get the chance. And Ignatieff is counting on that.

          • Holly Stick

            I bet you're an AGW denier too. Your reality isn't all that real, no matter how frantically you post comments.

    • Matlock

      Blocking foreign investment doesn't improve my well being. Nor does it improve the economy.

    • Dave

      Where was Harper's focussing skills in September 2008, when he said that if we were going to have a recession, we would have had it by now?

  • OriginalEmily1

    Nevertheless, the Cons are still charged, and all the docs have to be produced.

    Harper threw in the towel himself. Keep up.

    • FVerhoeven

      This post tells the true story: Emily puts up another simple statement and gets rewarded by the gang. Keep it up, Emily and the gang.

      Pretty soon your wisdom may pursuade the intelligence of this country to go into a long deep sleep.

      Emily: The Tories have not been charged with anything other than having been reprimanded for not upholding the privilege of the House. The must now produce either the documentation as asked for by the committee or provide sufficient evidence or reasons why they will not produce all of the documents requested. It is not that difficult to understand that much. But then again, why am I even trying……………………..

      • OriginalEmily1

        I have no idea why you're trying. You clearly don't understand the situation.

        • FVerhoeven

          You are so right, Emily. I don't understand this situation:

          Why is it that each and every day when Wherry throws down his pieces of raw partisan meat (timed of course a to an appetite so expressed) you are ready to bite into them? Does it fill the stomach, Emily, to eat up whatever Wherry throws out there?

          • OriginalEmily1

            Then stop being daft enough to comment on something you admit you don't understand.

            Wherry covers the HOC….Cons are the govt, and so make the news

            Don't blame others for the news the 'Harper govt' produces….they just report it, and offer reflections on this blogsite.

            People are invited to comment on here. I do so.

  • chet

    So once again,

    we should all thank Prime Minister Harper,

    for rising above the fray, not allowing the petty sniping to get in the way of what really matters to everyday Canadians.

    Through the rough economic waters, and the amidst the hail of destructive attacks on our polity by a partisan gang of leftists, seperatists, and a travelling politician come to take Canada as his own personal Rhodes Scholar political prize,

    Prime Minister Harper steers the HMS Canada towards calmer waters of economic recovery.

    On behalf of everyday non-leftist partisans everywhere,

    Thank you.

    • OriginalEmily1

      …"We shall fight on the beaches, we shall fight on the landing grounds, we shall fight in the fields and in the streets, we shall fight in the hills; we shall never surrender…"

    • Anon

      War is peace!! Freedom is slavery!! Ignorance is peace!!

      • Anon

        … ignorance is strength!! (oops)

        • Holly Stick

          I thought it was bliss?

          • Keith in Brampton

            Not in the Ministry of Truth (Anon is quoting from Orwell's 1984)

    • M_A_D_world

      There are Leafs fans that must admire the level support that you're willing to give Harper's vision.
      Even we can call our team crap when it's appropriate.

      • chet

        Except in your analogy, the leafs would be leading the league in points just before playoffs,

        just as Harper has a commanding lead in every single poll, just before this election.

        Yet I'M the one deluding myself, eh?

        • MostlyCivil

          You might want to do some homework, wonder-boy.

          The team that finished first overall in league standings has won six Stanley Cups in the last 20 years. So, you're predicting that Harper has a 3 in 10 chance of winning an election?

    • frobisher

      I wonder what voice other readers hear when they read this poster's pithy quips. Is it the brummeling growl of Churchill? Perhaps the snarl of the young Steve McQueen?Milhouse? Who?

      Imagining Alfred Hitchcock is particularly chilling.

      • OriginalEmily1

        I hear chet. LOL

    • Jan

      Cue the 'White Cliffs of Dover' – chet has finally lost it.

  • Anon

    I wonder what Tom Lukiwski secretly thinks of John Baird?

    • Reverend_Blair

      Very worried about Baird's manicure, no doubt.

    • Come out, come out

      I gather that Jason Kenney wears the same brand of (light) loafers as Baird, too, which'd probably come as a rude shock to a lot of the "very ethnic" groups he's been speaking ill about how pernicious the Liberals are to their value values.

      • Anon

        I've heard similar rumors. If true, it's pretty darn ironic…

        On voting against same-sex marriage in Canada: "Said homosexuals in fact marry all the time, and nothing is preventing them from doing so. Essentially, they can still enter into marriage if they found an accepting woman."
        http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Members_of_the_38th_…

    • Dave

      I'm guessing he wouldn't give him an "A."

  • gottabesaid

    I still can't understand why the Conservatives picked this fight over the estimates. As the Afghan Detainee issue illustrated to everyone, if the house asks for information, the government has to produce it. I've heard excuses, like 'The Liberals just want to use the information for partisan purposes.' OK… you still have to hand over the information. I've heard excuses like 'The Liberal government used cabinet confidence to withhold information when they were in power'. OK… but they also had a majority of MPs in the House… and you still have to hand over the information. I'm looking forward to hearing exactly why they had to sit on that information when this goes to committee… hopefully it doesn't turn into a partisan gong show, because I'd love to really find out what the heck the government was thinking. They're not dumb… but I'm not sure why they thought this was going to go any other way.

    • OriginalEmily1

      Yes, it was such a minor thing in itself….yet they managed to make it into screaming national headlines and a Speaker's ruling….Cons seem to have a gift for doing stuff like this.

      None of it is any more rational than the Census.

      They have no discretion

      • avr

        And yet, despite screaming national headlines, they're polling pretty well.

        Cry wolf constantly, and you get tuned out; go figure…

        • OriginalEmily1

          Well since both pollsters and Harper have told us to ignore the polls because they're wrong, no one is concerned.

        • gottabesaid

          Yeah, they're polling pretty well, but how well would they be polling without the headlines? Wouldn't be any worse, I wouldn't think. Still makes no sense to me. Completely unnecessary. It's not sensitive information (no national security secrets). Is the information THAT politically explosive that they feel the need to keep it under wraps? I even doubt that explanation. It's a head-scratcher.

        • Out There

          And yet, despite screaming national headlines, they're polling pretty well.

          The Conservatives are polling well because (a) their attack ads are, sadly, effective; (b) they have a strong regional brand identity – there are many Westerners who would never vote anything other than Conservative; (c) their policies haven't adversely affected the average Canadian yet. (And (d) the Liberals and NDP are less than perfect alternatives.)

          The Conservatives' plan to spend wildly on prisons and fighter jets while in deficit will force the Conservatives to make tough choices that will affect some of the Canadians who currently support them – but that day of reckoning has not yet happened. Resolving these problems has been postponed for now – presumably because the Conservatives want to try to secure a majority first.

          And the gradual evolution of the Canadian political framework from a parliamentary democracy to de facto one-man rule hasn't yet affected the average Canadian either. The major problem with one-man rule is that one man acting alone – no matter how smart he is – can't be as effective as a group of smart people working together to solve problems. And the negative consequences of this one man's poor decisions – such as the one to scrap the long form census – have yet to percolate down to affect ordinary Canadians.

    • Out There

      I still can't understand why the Conservatives picked this fight over the estimates.

      Two possible reasons come to mind:

      1. They don't have the real numbers – their estimates are made up out of thin air. They can't provide what they don't have.

      2. Picking fights is what the Conservatives do. They see themselves as outsiders surrounded by enemies, and revealing information is perceived as providing ammunition to these enemies.

      • gottabesaid

        1. As good old Spock once said, when you eliminate all other possible explanations, the last explanation left standing must be the truth, however outlandish that explanation might be. And I have to admit, I have a hard time believing they don't have any clue how much this will cost. If they don't, I suppose that will become clear at committee.

        2. Picking fights is one thing. Picking fights you don't have a snowball's chance of winning is another.

  • chet

    As for the blatant misrepresentations of the Speakers rulings,

    the dishonest statements that conservatives face "jail time" for this accounting dispute

    and above all the media's willingness to parrot the above and willfully ignore an internet full of evidence that the other parties engage in the same type of accounting – placing a magnifying glass over the CPC while turning a blind eye to their compratiots on the Left,

    that is indeed the true scandal.

    The true threat to our democracy is a media, wholly infiltrated by leftists, who abuse their protected status as impartial purveyors of facts supposed to inform the populace,

    not to inform, but to blatantly propagandize for the "correct" party.

    The CPC has a website showing the opposition using government letterhead for Liberal party purposes, and for this…nothing. Not a headline. Not a peep. For Jason Kenny, he must be driven out of town.

    A true threat to our democracy indeed.

    • gottabesaid

      'the dishonest statements that conservatives face "jail time" for this accounting dispute'

      Uh… the charges do provide for jail time… may be unlikely, but it's possible

      'and above all the media's willingness to parrot the above and willfully ignore an internet full of evidence that the other parties engage in the same type of accounting – placing a magnifying glass over the CPC while turning a blind eye to their compratiots on the Left'

      The Public Prosecutor's Office and Elections Canada seem to think that the cases are different… nevertheless, I've heard that argument made from the Conservative camp. Guess where I read about it? The media!

      I'm glad all Conservatives don't get their whine on like you, chet.

      • chet

        Quick media check:

        Google news: "in and out"

        Guess what you'll find?

        Hundreds and hundreds of magnifying glasses focused on the CPC, and literally nothing about the other parties.

        I suppose you think a ratio of 10,000:1 (CPC v. Lib) scrutiny is fair….well I guess you might be a partisan liberal content with the leftist media rulebook as it is currently written.

        • gottabesaid

          Who's charged, chet? THE CONSERVATIVES. If you have a problem about how the law is being applied, your beef is with EC and PPO. I'm well aware of the argument you and others have made about the other parties 'doing the same thing'. I read about it in the media. The media can't drop the charges, chet, because they didn't lay the charges. They do have to cover the story, however, chet.

        • OriginalEmily1

          That's cuz it's nothing to do with the other parties…just yours.

    • Matlock

      "opposition using government letterhead for Liberal party purposes"

      This is impossible, for the Liberals are not in government. Parliamentary letterhead, perhaps.

      Certainly not ministerial letterhead, which is the reason Jason Kenney is in hot water.

    • James Connors

      As for the blatant misrepresentations of the Speakers rulings, the dishonest statements that conservatives face "jail time" for this accounting dispute . . .

      From:
      http://www.thestar.com/printArticle/416912

      A charge against a party's chief agent of providing returns containing false or misleading statements is liable to a range of penalties that include a $5,000 fine, five years' imprisonment or both, the deregistration of the party and liquidation of its assets, or for the party a $25,000 fine. The penalty for knowingly exceeding the election expense limit for a party's chief agent is a $1,000 fine, three months' imprisonment or both. A registered party is liable to a $25,000 fine.

      However I assume you might prefer tne National Post as an unbiased</> source?
      http://www.nationalpost.com/news/costs+ruling+ove…

      The Tories have repeatedly called the charges against the four officials “administrative” and described them as a dispute over accounting methods.

      But the charges, laid by the commissioner of Canada elections on the recommendations of the director of public prosecutions, carry maximum penalties of fines and jail time.

      • Not Stephen Colbert

        I'm a little late here, but what the hell:

        The actual charges (http://www.elections.ca/content.aspx?section=abo&…) were laid as summary conviction offences, for which the maximum penalty is a $2000 fine or one year in jail or both. (See s. 500 (5) (a) of the Canada Elections Act at http://www.elections.ca/content.aspx?section=abo&… ). The Crown could have proceeded by indictment (s. 500 (5) (b)), in which case the $5,000/five years figure would be right. But it didn't.

        The party could indeed face fines of $25,000 for each charge it faces (s. 507). Deregistration of the party is indeed technically a possibility (s. 501 (2) and s. 501 (3) (i), though that's at the discretion of the judge and I think we can safely discount the possibility of that actually happening.

        Though there are a number of offences under the Act that carry a maximum penalty of $1,000/three months, the offences alleged are not among them.

        At any rate, since the Conservative Party's chief agent is a corporation (the Conservative Fund Canada), imprisonment is obviously not an option in that case. I can't see anything in the Act that provides for punishment in lieu of imprisonment for an organization, so in the absence of further evidence I presume the standard rule for organizations convicted of summary conviction offences would apply, which would mean a maximum fine of $100,000. (That's from s. 735 (1) (b) of the Criminal Code.)

        • James Connors

          Thanks for your clarification.

          I'm certain Chet appreciates it as well.

  • chet

    And make no mistake about it,

    the reason Harper's poll numbers have stayed steady or risen, notwithstanding the constant partisan drumbeat from the Globe, Star, CBC – leftist insititutions one and all,

    is precisely because the media no longer has the credibility to which they ascribe to themselves.

    No longer trusted purveyors of fact, they've become the town screamers, chicken littles shouting the sky is falling day in and day out.

    Like all parasites, the leftists are killing the media hosts they've infested.

    All so sad.

    So very very sad.

    • OriginalEmily1

      Everyone but Cons understand the ruling chet, so give the melodrama a rest.

    • Anon

      War is peace!! Freedom is slavery!! Ignorance is strength!!

    • madeyoulook

      Careful there, kody:
      [T]he reason Harper's poll numbers have stayed steady or risen, notwithstanding the constant partisan drumbeat from the Globe, Star, CBC – leftist insititutions one and all, (sic) is precisely because the media no longer has the credibility to (sic) which they ascribe to themselves.

      becomes:
      The reason Harper still polls well is precisely because the media has lost credibility.

      becomes:
      If the media were credible, Harper is toast.

      • Crit_Reasoning

        Heh. Never overlook the contrapositive.

    • frobisher

      In Hitchcock:

      How do you do? My name is Chet and I would like to tell you about my forthcoming lecture. It is about the birds and their agelong relationship with man.

      In my lecture I hope to make you all aware of our good friends, the birds. Theirs is a noble history and through it all man has played a conspicuous part.

      This cave drawing is one of man’s earliest sketches of his feathered friend. One can see at once the loving care with which the artist depicted his subject.

      The story of man and his friends the birds is filled with many fine examples of ways in which these noble creatures have added to the beauty of the world.

      Take this plumed hat from the period of Charles the first. How proud the birds must have been to have their feathers plucked out, to brighten man’s drab life.

    • Gayle

      "the reason Harper's poll numbers have stayed steady or risen…"

      Probably has a lot o do with attack ads.

      But please biff, stay in your imaginary world. It is safer for you there.

      • chet

        For ads to be effective they have to have a factual foundation. Iggy being away for 34 years then coming back only to take a crack at being PM is a solid foundation. You can infer from that what you will, but a reasonble (indeed the most likely) inference is that he's a self interested carpet bagger.

        Conversely, notwithstanding the Liberal's ads that Harper was going to take away our rights (who can forget the ad with the lovely image of the girl in the fetal position being victimized by the eeevil CPC?) the CPC won the election.

        • gottabesaid
          • http://canadiansense.blogspot.com/ CanadianSense

            Are you suggesting Dan Gardner omits facts in articles or does not have a bias?

            In 2005 Ignatieff praised American leadership led by Republicans, castigating Liberalism in Europe and Canada for failing to pay the note.

            Dan omits Ignatieff rewrites his talking points about the 40 years of bogus peacekeeping (Liberals-PC-Liberals) when Ignatieff now blames the current government in his speeches.

            Danny will cites experts and omit their background.
            http://canadiansense.blogspot.com/2010/04/dan-gar…
            http://canadiansense.blogspot.com/2009/09/michael…

        • LdKitchenersOwn

          For ads to be effective they have to have a factual foundation.

          LOL.

          Good one.

  • chet

    Some very important perspective:
    http://fullcomment.nationalpost.com/2011/03/11/lo…

    Not only did the same happen under previous Liberal governments, it happened routinely.

    One very important difference:

    When the CPC does it, the media inundates us with "political sky is falling" stories. When their chosen Liberals do it? Well that's just the rumble tumble of politics, nothing to see here.

    A magnifying glass to the Right. A blind eye to the left.

    The epic scandal of our generation.

    • gottabesaid

      So… if a majority of MPs in the House of Commons want access to certain documents, big deal? Can the government ignore the fundamental principles of democracy (that is, the most votes wins) when it becomes inconvenient? Essentially, that's what you're arguing.

      I agree wholeheartedly with the article you just posted — majority governments do need to be held account more effectively than they have been in the past. I also agree with the artlcle's conclusion that the opposition Liberals need to drop their 'pure as the driven snow' act. That doesn't change the fact that if a majority of MPs in the House want certain information from the government, the government is obligated to provide it in all cases. And as I've said on this board before with respect to the estimates case in particular, it was CUT and DRIED. You want to talk about needlessly clogging up the wheels of parliament with partisan games? Try withholding information on projected costs of certain government programs when, as any reasonable person can see, there were NO grounds to withhold that information. THEY HAD NO GROUNDS. So while you're chastising others for failing to be realistic, you should probably pause and take a big whiff of reality yourself.

      • LdKitchenersOwn

        Oh, I think they have grounds to withhold the numbers. The numbers undermine their case in favour of the legislation. What more grounds do they need to withhold the costs of a government program from the House of Commons than "telling people what the program will cost might hurt our electoral prospects"?

        • gottabesaid

          Yeah, but everybody, even chet, couldn't have possibly expected any different outcome than this. You can't withhold information demanded by the house.

          • LdKitchenersOwn

            Oh, don't get me wrong, I'm not saying they have legitimate, let alone LEGAL grounds to withhold the information from Parliament (there ARE NO legal grounds for withholding information from Parliament) I was just cheekily pointing out that they have grounds to withhold the information, those ground being their desire to get re-elected.

      • FVerhoeven

        Yes, the Conservatives have been dragging their feet in regards to providing documentation. And the speaker has every right to rule on such matters. But the incidents are not scandals. And so let us not hear about that any longer within media circles. The media should not mention the word scandal when it is not warranted! By inserting the word 'scandal' time and again, the media itself becomes participatory within the democratic deficit.

        Here's an interesting note: Why did the Liberals push and push for parliament's right to have full access to the Afghan detainee files: The House has the right! The House has the right! (remember)

        And now that the Liberals do have access to the files, nothing can be heard openly within the House on the contents of the files. Does this not make you wonder why they pushed and pushed and pushed when it all seemed so hollow then and seems so much more hollow now? Should the press ont pressure the Liberals to explain this one to us, the voter…………

        • gottabesaid

          I haven't used the word scandal. I just think it's incredibly stupid.

          As far as the AD documents… sounds like the Conservatives are still dragging their heels on that one, and Gilles Duceppe says if the Tories don't start abiding by the agreement, the Bloc with withdraw from the agreement, and the government may still be found in contempt on that issue.

          Now, regarding the agreement regarding the release of those documents… I believe the agreement was to allow MPs to see these documents in this closed-door committee, with the assistance of legal advisors, to ensure security secrets weren't publicized. Also, there's a 'cargo container full of documents', so it's going to take a while to get through them. If there are issues to be dealt with by the house, the committee will bring them forward. So far, there has been nothing to bring forward.

          Also, the house requested the documents. The government refused. The speaker said the government had to release the documents to the house, and that the house had the right to ask for them. That right was upheld. However, the speaker also urged the two sides to reach an agreement that respected the right of MPs to see the documents while minimizing the leakage of sensitive information. I'm not sure why you see a problem.

          • FVerhoeven

            Yes, gottabesaid, you make some very valid points.

            There is a truck load of info on the subject out there

            There was the request by the speaker to have the documents released (rightly so) and to reach an interparty agreement for making sure sensitive information would not be leaked.

            My point is: before the speaker's ruling on that front, the opposition had not been keen to find a workable agreement between parties for safekeeping the info. It had mainly touted the mantra "open access for the House" A superficial way of trying to lure the voter on side.

            Not that I need the answer, but this question would be valid, no? : Why would the BQ not quarrel with the Liberals as well? Are the Liberals not satisfied with the process unfolding regarding the detainee files? I was in the understanding that the Libs were in agreement with how things were being done on that file, and if they agree than maybe the BQ can disagree with the Libs, not just the Tories.

        • LdKitchenersOwn

          Somehow I think that if the Chretien government had refused to tell Parliament how much a government program was going to cost Canadian taxpayers, despite being ordered to by the House of Commons, pre-2006 Stephen Harper would have considered that a scandal.

          Of course, that fact comes with the caveat that I realize that pre-2006 Stephen Harper would likely have HATED post-2006 Stephen Harper, so there is that.

    • Loraine Lamontagne

      I just read Lorne Gunther and his conclusions are very different from yours.

      The opposition doesn't need to be in a minority situation (and the government to be in a majority) to demand that documents be made available to them. Even with 306 sitting members sitting on the Conservative side and one in the opposition, the ruling would be the same.

  • FVerhoeven

    Is Mr.Ignatieff and the Liberal party no trying to imply that Kevin Page numbers are rock solid? Are the Liberals trying to imply that Kevin Page is capable of speaking the truth and nothing but the truth?

    If that's what the Liberals are trying to imply, the should be accused of confusing the House.

    No one, not even Mr.Page, has access to the complete truth. The Liberals should not intentionally be allowed to mislead the House.

    • Holly Stick

      Does anybody in Canada think the Harper Regime is more trustworthy than Page? Even the ones who are paid to post such partisan nonsense at blogs like this one?

      • FVerhoeven

        Yeah, Holly, on this website, can you spot who's being paid by the Tories and who's being paid by the NDP or Liberals? There might be some Greens out there being paid by the party, but I doubt it; the Greens can't even convince enough voters to contribute enough money to the party to be able to pay for mouthpieces on this blog.

        Strange, isn't it, how the Tories always manage to get enough finacial support independently from taxpayer's dollars. Must be their independent minds matching their independent donations. LOL

  • Holly Stick

    I duno about Gayle, but I would say the Conservative supporters are blind and also not too bright.

  • westNewf

    For a list of Liberal Ethical inconsistencies see the following: http://www.ignatieffselection.com

  • Margaret

    I like Aaron Wherry more than a lot of them.

  • Mark Dip

    I think the time to really start worrying is when the Conservatives dissolve the Imperial Senate, hand direct control of the territories over to the regional governors and let fear keep the local systems in line. Fear of their battle station.

  • Judge Roy Bean

    What ARE the elitists and the maggots (some would argue one in the same) gonna do on election night when Harpers government gets it majority. Perfect–far from it, but miles ahead of the alternatives.

  • chet

    While the liberal media dutifully follows Iggy's commands that every issue be considered a scandal,

    Conservatives have to spend their own money to inform Canadians of Liberal transgressions:
    http://www.ignatieffselection.com/

    On that site you will likely learn things for the very first time….things not to be uttered by the liberal media.

    Meanwhile the same media that essentially utilizes their corporate resources to propagandize for the Liberals,

    decry Conservatives….gasp….spending thier own money on advertising to point out what the media will not.

    The epic scandal of our generation to be sure.

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