Beyond The Commons

Beyond The Commons

Aaron Wherry covers all the goings-on in and around Parliament Hill. Follow Aaron on Twitter: @aaronwherry

What was Stephen Harper up to in 2004?

by Aaron Wherry on Thursday, March 24, 2011 9:01am - 230 Comments

In response to the charge yesterday during Question Period that the Harper government had shown contempt for democracy, John Baird offered the following.

Mr. Speaker, it is the leader of the Liberal Party who is showing contempt for Canadian voters. He does not accept the fundamental democratic principle that the person with the most votes wins elections. He wanted to establish a coalition government with the Bloc Québécois and the NDP and now the coalition is back again. That shows utter contempt for Canadians.

Mr. Baird’s invoking of fundamental democratic principles was particularly noteworthy in light of what Jack Layton and Gilles Duceppe had said two hours earlier in their respective news conferences.

First, to Mr. Layton, who responded as follows to a question about whether he would disavow any possibility that he might take part in a coalition in the event the Conservative’s were returned with a minority after the next election.

If I held that attitude, then I wouldn’t have attended a meeting to which I was invited by Mr. Harper when he was the leader of the opposition and Mr. Martin had been recently elected. The House hadn’t even begun to sit and he said, “Come and have a meeting with me and Mr. Duceppe and let’s make sure the Governor General understands that Mr. Martin doesn’t necessarily get to be the Prime Minister just because he has the most seats. And I’d like you to join with me in making sure that the Governor General understands that there are other alternatives here.” I attended that meeting, I signed that letter as a matter of fact, in good faith, perhaps others weren’t signing it in good faith, I don’t know. But you can be sure that that letter will be available for all Canadians to see if we start running into hypocritical positions from certain corners or certain political leaders.

Mr. Layton refers here to events that followed the 2004 election. In September of that year (See: What was Stephen Harper thinking in 2004?), Mr. Harper, Mr. Duceppe and Mr. Layton held a joint news conference and announced, in part, that they had written a letter to the Governor General—presumably the same one Mr. Layton refers to here—asking her to “consult” with them and consider her “options” in the event that Mr. Martin sought to dissolve Parliament.

When Mr. Harper was asked at the time whether he was prepared to form a government, he dismissed the possibility as “extremely hypothetical.” Seven years earlier though (See: What was Stephen Harper thinking in 1997?), Mr. Harper predicted in a television interview that the Liberal government of the day would be in danger of losing power when the opposition parties in a minority parliament united to replace it.

Now to Mr. Duceppe’s comments about his recollection of events in 2004.

In August 2004, he called me, he called Jack Layton, saying that if Paul Martin was to lose confidence in the House, we’ll write to the then-governor general Adrienne Clarkson to tell her that instead of launching an election she should consult the opposition leaders and the one who finished second, it was him, was to be Prime Minister.

Mr. Duceppe previously claimed that Mr. Harper discussed a potential Speech from the Throne with him.

Since his government survived an attempt to defeat it in December 2008, the Prime Minister, while regularly complaining of cooperation between the three opposition parties, has asserted various principles (See: The guardian of our democracy and How late is too late?) that he claims to be fundamental to our democracy, including an insistence that “losers” don’t get to form government.

In 1997, as a private citizen, Mr. Harper predicted such a scenario. In 2004, as leader of the opposition, he dismissed it as hypothetical. Now, with Mr. Harper as prime minister, it is apparently undemocratic. But here Mr. Layton and Mr. Duceppe seem to have described a situation in which the “losers” of the 2004 election entertained the possibility of defeating the “winner” and allowing at least one of the “losers” to form government.

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  • Thwim

    Except an election isn't just about one party. It's a comparison of those on offer.

    So compare, if you would, the site you provided with http://www.conservative.ca/policy

    The site's most recent change is almost two years old. How on earth are policy ideas that are two years old any more what Canada needs or is missing? And if they are, what kind of job does that indicate the CPC has been doing?

    • Atchison

      It's funny that the Tories site hasn't changed. I guess it reflects their platform of–expect more of the same.

      The Tories have done a lot in the last five years: income splitting for seniors, reduced the GST, re-equipped the military, reduced the credit criminals get for time spent in custody , $1,200 yearly child care allowance, steered Canada through the recession, de-centralizing federal government, tax credits for public transport, tax free savings account, tax credits for sports and music for children, tried to kill the long-gun registry etc.

      The Tories have done alright but its come at a slow pace. My dream is to see income splitting for all Canadians, something that the Tories have hinted at.

      • LdKitchenersOwn

        My dream is to see the Tories come out with an election platform before being mocked in the Leaders Debates for not having an election platform halfway through the election.

      • Thwim

        Woah, woah, woah.. your first few I"ll grant.

        But steered Canada through the recession? They were in the process of engineering it by removing bank regulations and blowing through surplus and cushions when the US melted down right in front of them. And even then it took the threat of losing power to the coalition to get them to smarten up. Decentralizing federal government? The budget of the PMO refutes you all on its own, to say nothing of Harper demanding agreements from would-be senators, and the general activity of "Harper's way or the Highway" that's been implemented on the CPC benches. Tax credits for public transport.. because that's something, as you put "jumps out and says "This is what Canada needs, what Canada is missing"

        Your own logic defeats you, all you have to do is look objectively at it.

        • Atchison

          9 out of 11 isn't bad. I'll address your three points individually.

          Sure there was a rough start to the recession but in the end we exited unscaved with the smallest defecit in the G8. I remember the opposition demanding more stimulus (which they didn't get) only later to complain that the Tories spent to much.

          The Tories have been fiscally decentralizing the fed by fattening transfer payments to the proviences however political power is as central as ever.

          I never said that the Tories need to run on a central policy that resonates to Canadians thats the Grit modus operandi. The Tories are a values party, that's what expands their base.

          • Thwim

            And what's the value behind cutting the GST while taxing income trusts, raising personal taxes half a point, and raising employment taxes?

            What's the value behind promising to "hold the US to the agreements they made" and then giving them a billion dollars of our lumber industry's money?

            What's the value behind promsing no unelected senators, and then appointing Michael Fortier on pretty much day one?

            The value behind creating a playbook on disrupting parliamentary committees?

            Or on preventing the press from freely asking questions?

            What's the value behind "If Canada were going to have a deficit we'd already have done so"?

            Or the value behind Clement's Gazebos, In-and-out, Carson's dalliances, Cadman's bribe? Behind the "Harper Government"?

            Basically you're saying the CPC doesn't need policies because they have values. Okay then. Lay them out. Show me what values they have that they haven't already broken.

          • LdKitchenersOwn

            Actually, Harper said that if Canada was going to have a RECESSION we'd have had one by now, not a deficit.

            He said we'd NEVER need to go back in to deficit.

          • Atchison

            Lowering GST stimulated consumer spending. I bought a G6 before the NSDippers jacked it back up to 15%.

            Filling the Senate with Tories means that if they get a majority in the House it will make it that much easier to send a bill through to make it elected.

            Committees are a waste of time to begin with. They don't accomplish anything in majority governments and it seems that’s equally true for minorities.

            In-and-out? The Tories refused to take the reimbursement and were forced to by Elections Canada.

            Values are: anti-long gun registry, elected senate (senates stacked to pass the motion), fiscal decentralization (more money to the provinces), serious jail-time for violent criminals, strong military (finally up to the funding levels of the 1980s), reducing taxes on individuals (income splitting stops punishing families for having a patriarch), letting Canadians chose how to spend their money (childcare benefit; for my son childcare is $900 a month I'm finishing my Master's my wife makes less than $20, 000 with subsidy and the benefit we pay $200 a month same as Quebec), etc.

          • Thwim

            anti-long gun registry. They killed their own bill on that.

            Elected senate. They've made zero moves in the constitutional arena required to enforce that.

            Fiscal decentralization. HST gives the feds MORE control, not less.

            Serious jail-time for violent criminals. The minimum sentences they're imposing are less than the average sentence handed out by judges already. They are putting up minimum sentences for crimes that involve *no violence*, and that's not even getting into the problem that our prison system is little more than violence training school right now. Not to mention that all of that is ignoring that they killed their own crime bills.. twice. The only value I can see here is one of "power at the expense of everything else"

            Reducing taxes on individuals: Again, HST, employment taxes. They're not reducing taxes one iota.. they're simply hiding them better. The GST brought the manufacturers tax out of hiding. Now they're trying to shove it back in there because, hey, if people don't actually see the money go away on the tax form, they don't complain as much.

            You happen to be in the very, very narrow range of people for whom the child care benefit makes as much difference as a national daycare plan would. Congratulations.. I guess you get to put one over on everybody else, eh?

            As for your responses, seriously, was it really that 2% that was holding you back from buying it before? You looked at it and went.. "Damn.. if only the GST were 2% lower, I'd go for it." Really?

            You can't make the senate elected just by sending a bill through it. Read up on our constitution.

            And you apparently have no clue about either committees or what the hell in-and-out is about. Although even if you did, you're still comfortable with a government that would put out these kind of shady dealings? The ends justifies the means, eh?

          • LdKitchenersOwn

            Isn't sending a bill through the Senate to make the Senate elected about as constitutionally useful, on its own, as sending a bill through the Senate barring leprechauns from owning unicorns?

  • Leo

    Here is a discussion on the UK possible turnout – this whole coalition thingy has me confused. It seems you can make a deal without actually forming a coalition.

    "An ally says of the "shopping list": "You can wield influence without being in government. You could even negotiate a programme for government through a Queen's speech with 40 to 50% of your ideas taken up, or negotiate on individual bills." Clegg is opposed to forming a coalition because aides and senior MPs argue it would be highly dangerous for the Liberal Democrats to become minority partners in a coalition government on the grounds that the majority party could manipulate the timing of the next election to suit it. The Lib Dems have long campaigned for fixed terms at Westminster to deprive the prime minister of the initiative on election timing."
    http://www.guardian.co.uk/politics/2010/feb/14/li…

    • tedbetts

      You should have stopped after " i dont follow uk politics that closely".

      Canadians were "quite opposed" to the particular coalition (Lib-NDP with support of Bloc) at the particular time (right after an election) led by that particular leader (Dion). The Brits favoured the Conservative-Lib Dem coalition over a Labour-Lib Dem coalition but it was nothing like here. It was just less popular. That probably had a lot to do with why the Lib Dems were reluctant to enter into a deal with Labour and why Brown recommended to the Queen that Cameron become PM.

      That had nothing to do with what you claimed up above that the winningest party should be part of a coalition. No one was jumping up and down claiming that a Labour-Lib Dem coalition would be anti-democratic or would lack moral authority or somehow not legitimate the way Cons claimed about the Lib-NDPs. It was simply less popular. Nor did people see the Liberal-NDP coalition in Ontario in 1985 as being anti-democratic.

      It's fundamental to the very nature of Parliamentary democracy that the gov't have the confidence of the House. All that that means is that it is able to win over a majority of the MPs. Period.

  • Bob Livingstone

    Sorry, I meant to say that Canada's Laws are rarely enforced.

  • tedbetts

    I think you should have stopped after " i dont follow uk politics that closely". In fact, from what followed, that statement is made perfectly obvious.

    Canadians were "quite opposed" to the particular coalition (Lib-NDP with support of Bloc) at the particular time (right after an election and a throne speech was passed) led by that particular leader (Dion). The British certainly seemed to favour the Conservative-Lib Dem coalition over a Labour-Lib Dem coalition. That probably had a lot to do with why the Lib Dems were reluctant to enter into a deal with Labour and why Brown recommended to the Queen that Cameron become PM.

    • alfanerd

      so you fancy yourself a little uk politics buff? awesome, im sure chicks dig it.

      anyhow, according to your superior knowledge of uk politics, i am correct, the british did not like the idea of a coalition between the loser lib-dems and the loser labours.

    • alfanerd

      PS: ipsos reid says its 43 to 24, this coalition talk might be a little premature.

  • Pele

    It's time for legislation to be introduced requiring federal parties to incorporate a mandate that has a view to governing the entire federation. Federal parties should be made to have a federal focus.

    Quebec already has a provincial government which voices Quebec concerns at the federal level. The Bloc gives Quebec double the provincial representation at the federal level. Not only is this completely unfair, but it is a perversion of Canadian democracy and completely undermines federalism.

    What's stopping a Bloc Nunavit, Bloc P.E.I. or Bloc Ontario? Our country would come apart at the seems. The Bloc Quebecois is a disgrace to the Canadian flag. I'll begin to respect Quebec when they grow up and vote in a party that seeks to represent all Canadians.

    • Harvey Mushman

      "What's stopping a Bloc Nunavit, Bloc P.E.I. or Bloc Ontario?"

      Only the lack of a proportional representation electoral system!

  • http://canadiansense.blogspot.com/ CanadianSense

    The coalition has sneaked a coup on a sleeping public

    Its project to drastically remodel British society is speeding ahead without any regard for what it told voters last year
    http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2011/feb/…

    It appears some of the progressives in the U.K. have used the same inflammatory language in describing a coalition.

    • Leo

      Good read, thx. I enjoy the comments, which certainly reflect Cameron making so many changes the Brits head's are spinning.

      Interesting times with Canada, the UK, Australia and New Zealand all in minority/coalition governments.

  • Pele

    Please explain to me how the Conservatives are any more obtuse, narrow or arbitrary than any of the other options. Many Canadians find the grassroots conservative movement to be a breath of fresh air; replete with it's concern for the taxpayer and healthy splash of libertarianism.

    The Liberals and the NDP haven't had a good idea in decades. It's the same 70's pant suit "the Government will look after you and tell you how to live" baloney regurgitated over and over again.

    • Thwim

      At least they've had some ideas in the past couple years. Judging by the CPC website, their thinking stopped the moment the polls closed in '08.

    • Holly Stick

      What grassroots conservative movement? You think Harper doen't trample any blade of grass that dares to speak up? Why aren't the Conservatives allowing democratic nomination meetings in their constituencies? Rob Anders for one should have been long gone.

  • Trudeau lover

    it's not surprising to see the Liberals in the media cynically selling the Liberal/Separatist/NDP coalition, because thats the only way they can"get back to power". The media can sell this narrative all they want, but if the Conservatives win the most votes in this coalition forced election and the inserted Liberal leader then try's to insert himself into the PMO after losing there will be hell to pay. Sure, AW and other hardcore Liberals want power at any cost, but that is not a view that is widely shared in the country. If the Liberals and their agents in the media were smart they would rule out seizing power after losing the election they are about to force, and mean it. The Liberals and Separatists in the media are not helping their cause by ineffectively selling the Liberal/Separatist coalition. It's just a constant reminder to the electorate that it doesn't matter who wins the Liberal forced election, the Liberals/Separatists will seize power anyhow. The media can sell the Liberal/Separatist coalition as legitimate, but it is truly contemptable and beyond arrogance to force an election and then ignore the results. Desperation and hatred makes people act irrationally, and the selling of the coalition of losers by the media is a profoundly irrational act.

  • Paul, Toronto

    An educated man like Ignatieff should come out and say that, although he is not planning on a coalition, it is a viable option in our parliamentary democracy. Harper does a disservice to our system of government, not just with all his government's contempt, but with arguing a coalition is undemocratic.
    It is only convention that the party with the largest number of members should form a government. The golden rule, if you will, is that the government must maintain confidence of the House of Commons to govern. In 2008, it appeared that he was going to lose confidence and argued against the coalition and prorogued parliament so he could keep power and stave off the coalition taking power.
    If the conservatives are returned with another minority, convention has it that they should form a government. If that government fails to conduct itself properly in a minority situation, it is perfectly legitimate for the opposition to have an agreement on a coalition and attempt to govern… read the history books, its happened before.
    In the current situation in Britain, the Conservatives united with the Liberal Democrats (I think) before any government was formed which could also happen here, likely only if the top parties were extremely close in terms of the number of seats they each held. It appears that in Britain, in order to have a more stable and productive government, a coalition allows parties to form majorities through coalition agreements. One might think that, if it were to be done here again, that if opposition parties can form a majority coalition government, they should be able to do so, for all our sakes.
    I am also sick of people, including the PM, arguing against this because of the separatist BLOC. That party is democratically elected, and any agreement would have them signing on and pledging to govern or support accordingly… I doubt the Liberals or the NDP would let them go overboard, and the media and public opinion could also keep them in check.

  • Thwim

    Okay. So given that Harper is the only one saying there will be a coalition, and given we already know he's quite comfortable lying… I assume you're quite confident in the knowledge that there'll be no coalition?

  • Canada Dad

    I don't get it. It seems that the more scandals they have going, the higher the Conservatives get in the polls. What are people thinking?

    • Trudeau lover

      People aren't all brainwashed Liberals, and they can see through the contrived manufactured smears.

      • Thwim

        Just curious, but what's contrived or manufactured about the government refusing to give the house the information it requires to do its job?

  • marte

    jayardi…it is your opinion that the PBO is partisan…to me he is not, just doing his job and has pointed out several errors in the Harper Government's math. This actually surprises me, as he was appointed by the Harper Government, and I really expected he would be just another Harper Government lap dog. If the Conservatives get the most seats in the upcoming election…I'm sure this guy will be gone. He does not regularly agree with Harper math…and this is a no..no. He actually seems like a straight shooter to me, and if the coalition forms the next government…hopefully the PBO would speak out when their math is also faulty.

  • Yury

    Let us say that this election leads to about the same results, namely Cons with the greatest number of deputies (but not a majority), followed by Libs, then Bloc and NDP. Let us further assume that Harper gets the first call to form a new government. And then let us assume that when the new government will ask for its very first vote of confidence, it will lose it. Those who are totally against the coalition, what is their solution? Another election?

  • AlbertaTom

    Aaron Wherry is hedgeing the bets,one never knows when the liberals could lie their way back in power and willing to reward a senate seat to a member of the liberal media for throwing around some liberal talking points when they are needed the most and at Mcleans no less.The facts are, in 2004 Mr Harper was trying to remove from power a liberal goverment that was in Que passing around brown envolpes full of cash and one can only speculate as to what they did to lead up to that and your going to tell Canadians that it some how compares with Oda's "not".Really liberals give me a bloody break,i know you think we're all stupid but that's a bit much even for liberals.I think and i'm sure many more right minded Canadians would have agreed and by the way,at the first opportunity Canadian voters did just that, they thru the bums out.To try to compare this situation to 2004 is just stupid.Haper may not be all that conservative over the past 5 years but when you put him up against the coalition of losers he looks pretty darn good and when the dust settles i think that right minded Canadians will to.

    • Patrick

      Pele – I don't necessarily disagree with anything you say. Perhaps you and I are listening to different news reports, but I don't hear the Bloc mentioned lately in any of them. The message is: coalition = undemocratic, and I think it shows a deep ignorance of our parliamentary system.

  • Shawn Mohr

    If any party or group of parties are acting within the confines of the rules of parliament (and making a coalition government is within those rules), and the governor general agrees (as it is their job to adjudicate the meanings and intentions of parliamentary rules) then the action is consistent with what we've agreed to as "democratic". If you don't like those rules, put pressure on your representatives to change them.

    I didn't like that Harper twice prorogued parliament, but I didn't blame him for manipulating the rules, I blamed the governor general that allowed it. Prorogation may, at times, be necessary for the well-being of a state. Coalition governments may, at times, be necessary too. That's why they're in the rules. But we, tacitly, write the rules of parliament and we could, if we stated it explicitly, rewrite them if we find something not to our liking. Or, as some may say, don't hate the player, hate the game.

  • Carson

    Harper is a CONVICTED FELON in the court of Canadian Democracy.

    He is a hypocrite caught in his own lies!

    HARPER'S COALITION WITH SOCIALISTS AND SEPARATISTS — was it any less democratic in 2004 than it is now?

    Harper's a LIAR! Please send this country bumpkin (village idiot) back to his Firewall Province to hide his head in shame!

  • Mary

    Why is Mr. Harper so paranoid and Angry when it comes to promoting Fear in Canadians for a Coalition that does not exist?

    Canada does not deserve a Prime Minister who is going to get our vote based on Fear and Lies!

    I'd vote proudly for Jack, Gilles, Ignatieff or May—ABC!

    I refuse to vote for an undemocratic government that was found in contempt of our Parliamentary democracy.

    I don't want my Ottawa Hill turned into TAHRIR SQ.

  • Thwim

    Oh good grief, another concern troll, whining about how the government can't act better because they're in a minority government situation.

    Hint: They *have* to act better because they're in a minority government situation. If the governing party would stop doing the things they're getting accused of by the opposition, the accusations would stop.

    And I love the PBO criticism. "I like the idea of a Parliamentary Budget Officer, but why oh why is he criticizing my beloved CPC just because they're the ones who make the budgets of Parliament."

  • lgarvin

    Rightly or wrongly, Ignatieff needs to reply to the question today.

    What is wrong with saying this: "The voters will decide the composition of the next parliament. It would be irresponsible -and anti-democratic – to unilaterally rule out any legitimate outcome. It's not for me – and it's not for Stephen Harper – to tell the Canadian people when their votes are worthy of respect and when they are not. The voters will always decide and we will always respect their decision. The Liberal Party is campaigning to win the next election."

  • Mike T.

    Heck, why not say "The Liberal party were not joining a coalition. If that was our intent, I would be prime minister right now."

  • tedbetts

    Agree, but start with: "Stephen Harper is the Prime Minister gets the first crack at government. If he can't find enough support among Canadian representatives in the House for confidence, then the GG must ask if anyone else can in our democratic system, just as happened recently in Britain and Australia."

  • McC_

    seems so obvious, and so easy. why do they make it so difficult for themselves?

  • danby

    He needs to reply along the lines of:

    The Liberals are running to win the election and form a government. We will have a platform, and invite Canadians share our vision of Canada. If the will of the electorate results in a minority Parliament, then we will do our best to serve the people of Canada.
    Should the Liberals form a minority government, we will be held accountable by the other parties. The opposition's seats are no less important than our own; we all represent Canadians. If we propose legislation that the combined will of the other parties opposes, then it will be defeated and that is how democracy works. It is the will of the people.

    If the Conservatives form a minority government, then they will be held to the same standard.

    Any minority government that cannot find cooperation and consensus with the other parties, risks being outnumbered by the elected MP's of our Parliament ,and that is how it works in my Canada. A freely democratic Canada.

    So no, I will not rule out cooperation with the other parties, nor would I expect anyone else to rule it out should the Liberals form a minority government. All governments are morally and ethically bound to act in the best interest of Canada, not to bend words and rules to do what's best for their own party. It's that simple

  • http://democraticreform.feedcluster.com/ Mark Crowley

    exactly. This could include a minority rule as Harper has or a coalition if the numbers warrant it, but it is up to voters to decide by how much we support the parties.

  • lgarvin

    No. I don't agree at all.

    a) Dion was the Liberal leader the last time a coalition was proposed.
    b) Ignatieff signed the agreement – "reluctantly" or not
    c) You're conceeding the Conservative fiction that coalition governments are illegitimate (unless they are headed by Conservatives.)

  • Mike T.

    I am guessing that my answer would be more popular, and it's 90% + likely there isn't going to be a coalition anyway.

    If I was to propose a truthful answer, it would be: "We have absolutely no plans to form a coalition unless harper wins a minority and then tries to introduce something ugly he didn't campaign on [as he did last time"]

    Why should Iggy be forced to tell the truth while Harper can lie with impunity?

  • lgarvin

    Very good point.

  • alfanerd

    and both in Britain and Australia, it was considered that the winning party should be part of any coalition, otherwise it would lack legitimacy.

  • Atchison

    Why aren't you Iggy's communications officer?

  • gottabesaid

    Well put.

    That said, here would be the Conservatives' simple yet effective response to that statement:

    'Are the Liberals planning on forming a coalition? Michael Ignatieff says he "will not rule out co-operation with the other parties" in the future.

    Don't let Michael Ignatieff and his coalition partners try to steal Canada's democracy again. Vote Conservative.'

    Or something like that.

  • TimesArrow

    "Any minority government that cannot find cooperation and consensus with the other parties, risks being outnumbered by the elected MP's of our Parliament ,and that is how it works in my Canada. A freely democratic Canada."
    '

    [Viewed that way you could make the case that maintaining the confidence of the house is a form of PR - at least in minority govts - a form of PR that is sorted out after the election. Now if there was only a reasonable check on the power of a majority, other then public opinion. But i guess that's democracy - as long as it's available to all parties it is legit.]

    You know that; and i know that. But it seems an awful lot of Canadians don't know that. If Harper wins a minority cue the howling if the other parties don't support his throne speech and an election doesn't ensue automatically, after a visit to the GG.

  • http://twitter.com/matwilson6 @matwilson6

    I don't think Harper is at all significant.

    It appears that we have inadvertently stumbled upon the real problem in government. Unethical people within government are padding their pockets instead of looking after the people's business, and that is why we have so many desperate needs that are ignored.

    http://ahabit.com

    Is that not the straw that broke the camels back? Our politicians come and go. Our bureacracy screws us over again and again and again and again……..and it never ends.

  • Guest

    "Why should Iggy be forced to tell the truth while Harper can lie with impunity?"__Everything that is wrong with partisan politics in one line.

  • Mike T.

    But why should Iggy have to tell the truth when Harper is apparently allowed to lie?

  • Blue

    Iggy could never hire danby as his communications officer because, when danby is proposing his scenario with a Liberal minority government, the assumption is the Liberals would need to win the most seats to acheive that.

    Even Iggy knows that is impossible.

    The only way Iggy can become PM, if Harper doesn`t win a majority, is to convince Canadians that the country would be better off with him as leader of a coalition then Harper is as leader of a minority Conservative government.

    And that is impossible.

  • Thwim

    Going by your logic, Harper shouldn't mention getting a majority, because that's truly impossible.

    Just like Jack Layton shouldn't campaign on being Prime Minister back in '08.. oh wait…

  • danby

    You seem to miss the whole point.
    By suggesting it applies to a Liberal minority, it raises the question of why this would not also apply in a Conservative minority government. Why is Stephen Harper against democracy?

  • Blue

    I think it is possible for Harper to increase his seat count by a dozen and achieve a majority.

    I don`t think it is possible for Ignatieff to increase the Liberal seat count by 50 to gain the most seats.

    And even the folks who vote for Layton would not want to see him as PM.

  • jonatwitan

    You're absolutely right, and if Iggy is just going to play the same games that Harper does, then, well, I'll just continue to support Harper.

    If on the other hand, Iggy shows me that he really is interested in being a different breed of politician, then I'll have cause to reconsider.

    Otherwise, I simply don't see why I should stop supporting one liar in order to support another.

  • tedbetts

    What are you talking about?

    In both cases, there was a minority. In both cases, it was to be put to the existing government first if they could gain the confidence of the House. In both cases, there was furious negotiations by the two leading parties for the coalition support of the third party. In Australia, the existing government won over the support of the third party and stayed in government. In England, the Labour Party could not win over the support of the Liberal-Democrats (and even if they did they'd need still more votes from the other parties) and so conceded to the Conservatives.

    In every single case, including these two (and Ontario in 1985 for that matter), all that matters is whether the party that is going to form government has the support of the House for its throne speech.

    So no matter what happens on E-day, the GG must first ask Harper if he has the confidence of the House. If Harper says no, then he turns to the party with the most seats.

  • Mike T.

    He's already considerably better than harper. Maybe not fantastic, but better than Harper.

  • Thwim

    Well, I certainly can't argue with logic like that.. although if you actually presented some, I might.

    But the stunning level of arrogance you display toward the intentions of NDP voters is, well, stunning. Not to mention completely irrelevant. If your point was the parties shouldn't campaign on what's impossible, what those who vote for Layton actually believe is irrelevant.

    However, let's give you the benefit of the doubt. Why, I don't know, you certainly have done nothing to earn it, but I'm feeling generous today.

    So. Your logic as it currently stands:

    A party can not campaign on what is impossible UNLESS the voters for said party do not actually want to see it happen.

    There seems to be a significant amount of evidence that even among those who vote for the Liberal party, Ignatieff is not who they'd want to see as PM. Which means you're wrong yet again, even under the most generous terms we could give you.

    Let's face it, you simply don't have a clue, even in your own fantasy worlds.

    Makes the name kinda funny, though.

  • MostlyCivil

    "I don`t think it is possible for Ignatieff to increase the Liberal seat count by 50 to gain the most seats. "

    I didn't think it was possible for the Liberals to add 94 seats in 1993, either. But guess what? Funny things happen in elections. Just ask Bob Rae.

  • Blue

    It is almost like Liberal supporters refuse to understand basic math.
    In 1972 the Liberals won 2 more seats then the PC`s—it`s a Liberal minority government.
    In 1979 the PC`s won 22 more sears then the Liberals —it`s a PC minority government
    In 2008 the Conservatives won 66 more seats then the Liberals—it`s a Conservative minority government.

    i don`t care how many contempts, or prima fascies or coalitions the opposition play around with, I know Canadians will not tolerate these disruptive and dysfunctional opposition tactics—-these tactics will now probably force many voters to choose a Conservative majority as the best option.

  • danby

    Again, you seem to miss the point.
    Try rereading the statement. It isn't about winning a minority for the Liberals, but about raising the question of how minority governments work; about democracy.

  • alfanerd

    From my understanding of the events in the UK, there was more common ground between Labour and the Lib-Dems, yet the Tories had won a minority, so a coalition excluding the Tories was seen as a 'coalition of losers' and was ruled out by the Lib-Dems, who didnt want to be seen associated with such a coalition of losers.

    Im not saying a coalition would be unconstitutional, but that it would be ill-advised.

  • Blue

    Agreed—anything is possible in an election, but I suspect Stephen Harper`s campaign abilities are superior to Kim Campbell`s.

  • tedbetts

    Sorry, you are making stuff up – and by that I do not mean you are deliberately trying to mislead us, simply that your "understanding" is not based on anything that was happening at the time other than Harper's own self-interested assessment and maybe you weren't following what was actually happening all that closely.

    The only person to have ever said that a coalition of Labour and Lib-Dems would be a coalition of losers was Harper. He is the only person to have ever introduced or pronounced this new idea.

    On May 6, 605 MPs were elected. No party had the confidence of the House. After 4 days of furious negotiations by Labour and by the Conservatives to woo the Lib-Dems, Brown realized he couldn't do it (in fact, at one moment they were close but the SNP wanted to extort too much) so as Prime Minister he recommended to the Queen that she choose Cameron as her PM.

    In other words, the Lib-Dems and Labour could not reach a deal. It wasn't about not wanting to be associated with or about a coalition of losers or being ill-advised.

  • http://halooverride.blogspot.com/ Halo_Override

    I'm enjoying agreeing with my opponents this week.

  • MostlyCivil

    No question, but there's always the possibility of a Myron Thompson Moment, or a rogue party hack putting out something unforgiveable on his youtube account. Sometimes, it only takes one flub.

  • TimesArrow

    You can see how Harper reached his conclusion then. He simply saw what he wanted to see[ in other words drew an erroneous conclusion] and everything else flowed from that…as it often does with him.

  • danby

    But by recasting it as a question of democratic ethics, he avoids being painted into a "yes" or "no" corner. Even worse is to avoid addressing the question.

    The Conservatives are going to twist sound bites and out of context quotes into attack ads no matter Michael's response. Better to reframe the question, stand on principle and draw it into a bigger picture. What has he got to lose that wouldn't also be lost by answering "yes" or "no".

    Michael Ignatieff's job in an election is to sell himself, his party and ideas – sometimes in contrast with his opponents. There's no reason he couldn't sell this if he got the nuance right.

    Don't play the game by Stephen Harper's rules; you can't win if you let him make the rules.

  • Wilf_Day

    "The person with the most votes wins elections"?? Not in 1979, when Trudeau got 3% more votes than Joe Clark, but Clark got more seats and was able to take power with the help of six Creditistes.

  • Thwim

    Yeah, but from Baird's point of view, that was them. This is now us.

  • Poker Face

    Or in Australia, where the Conservatives got 47% of the vote – beating Labour handily, but got shut out of office by a Coalition.
    Or in Germany in 1933, when the second place party did something really bad. (Godwin's law wins again….)

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