Beyond The Commons

Beyond The Commons

Aaron Wherry covers all the goings-on in and around Parliament Hill. Follow Aaron on Twitter: @aaronwherry

What was Stephen Harper up to in 2004?

by Aaron Wherry on Thursday, March 24, 2011 9:01am - 230 Comments

In response to the charge yesterday during Question Period that the Harper government had shown contempt for democracy, John Baird offered the following.

Mr. Speaker, it is the leader of the Liberal Party who is showing contempt for Canadian voters. He does not accept the fundamental democratic principle that the person with the most votes wins elections. He wanted to establish a coalition government with the Bloc Québécois and the NDP and now the coalition is back again. That shows utter contempt for Canadians.

Mr. Baird’s invoking of fundamental democratic principles was particularly noteworthy in light of what Jack Layton and Gilles Duceppe had said two hours earlier in their respective news conferences.

First, to Mr. Layton, who responded as follows to a question about whether he would disavow any possibility that he might take part in a coalition in the event the Conservative’s were returned with a minority after the next election.

If I held that attitude, then I wouldn’t have attended a meeting to which I was invited by Mr. Harper when he was the leader of the opposition and Mr. Martin had been recently elected. The House hadn’t even begun to sit and he said, “Come and have a meeting with me and Mr. Duceppe and let’s make sure the Governor General understands that Mr. Martin doesn’t necessarily get to be the Prime Minister just because he has the most seats. And I’d like you to join with me in making sure that the Governor General understands that there are other alternatives here.” I attended that meeting, I signed that letter as a matter of fact, in good faith, perhaps others weren’t signing it in good faith, I don’t know. But you can be sure that that letter will be available for all Canadians to see if we start running into hypocritical positions from certain corners or certain political leaders.

Mr. Layton refers here to events that followed the 2004 election. In September of that year (See: What was Stephen Harper thinking in 2004?), Mr. Harper, Mr. Duceppe and Mr. Layton held a joint news conference and announced, in part, that they had written a letter to the Governor General—presumably the same one Mr. Layton refers to here—asking her to “consult” with them and consider her “options” in the event that Mr. Martin sought to dissolve Parliament.

When Mr. Harper was asked at the time whether he was prepared to form a government, he dismissed the possibility as “extremely hypothetical.” Seven years earlier though (See: What was Stephen Harper thinking in 1997?), Mr. Harper predicted in a television interview that the Liberal government of the day would be in danger of losing power when the opposition parties in a minority parliament united to replace it.

Now to Mr. Duceppe’s comments about his recollection of events in 2004.

In August 2004, he called me, he called Jack Layton, saying that if Paul Martin was to lose confidence in the House, we’ll write to the then-governor general Adrienne Clarkson to tell her that instead of launching an election she should consult the opposition leaders and the one who finished second, it was him, was to be Prime Minister.

Mr. Duceppe previously claimed that Mr. Harper discussed a potential Speech from the Throne with him.

Since his government survived an attempt to defeat it in December 2008, the Prime Minister, while regularly complaining of cooperation between the three opposition parties, has asserted various principles (See: The guardian of our democracy and How late is too late?) that he claims to be fundamental to our democracy, including an insistence that “losers” don’t get to form government.

In 1997, as a private citizen, Mr. Harper predicted such a scenario. In 2004, as leader of the opposition, he dismissed it as hypothetical. Now, with Mr. Harper as prime minister, it is apparently undemocratic. But here Mr. Layton and Mr. Duceppe seem to have described a situation in which the “losers” of the 2004 election entertained the possibility of defeating the “winner” and allowing at least one of the “losers” to form government.

Bookmark and Share
  • Mike T.

    Hard to tell who the CPC has more contempt for, the people who don't vote for them or the people who do.

    • http://halooverride.blogspot.com/ Halo_Override

      Good First. You really should sign up with a full account.

      • Mike T.

        Dude,t his way I am off the grid and can't be traced!!!!

  • Loraine Lamontagne

    Monsieur Duceppe in Le Devoir today is quoted : «C'est lui (Harper) qui a jeté les bases théoriques d'une telle coalition!»

    (It is him (Harper) who laid the theoretical basis for a coalition)

  • LdKitchenersOwn

    Sure, but this is hardly a stunning revelation.

    I list this as #12 of the 3,642 ways in which pre-2006 Stephen Harper is antithetical to post-2006 Stephen Harper. I don't see why we even bothering comparing the two figures any more – they're clearly not the same person.

    • Reverend_Blair

      Hmmm…there's been nothing in the World Weekly News about Harper being abducted by aliens and replaced by a robot. I think the WWN has been slacking.

      • LdKitchenersOwn

        It's surprising the number of things that can be explained by the notion that Stephen Harper is a robot.

      • Richard_S_Argent

        I think it's pretty obvious that Bat Boy is keeping is hiding the true story from us.

        (Used to LOVE the WWN, now they're only online, and the material is a little lacking IMHO :)

  • bergkamp

    Who cares what Harper was thinking 15 years ago. Pols say conflicting things week to week never mind what they were saying in another century compared to today.

    Wherry – you seem to spend an inordinate amount of time worrying about what pols said previously compared to now when pols clearly don't give a monkey's about consistency. Pols speak out of both sides of their mouth, and other orifices, don't let is vex you so.

    • SanDiegoDave

      I do. I need to understand their motivations and their worldview so that I can then make a somewhat informed decision of who to vote for. Changing ones mind bothers me not- politicians are human too, after all, and only a Sith deals in absolutes.

      It's the utter shamelessness of politicians today, and of this government in particular, that annoys me. Mr Harper is on record as supporting the concept of a coalition 6 years ago. Today, he believes it is inconceivable and yes, "undemocratic". There is no explanation, no justification, no clarification, no acknowledgement of previous positions. He just does a complete about-face and feels no compunction to explain himself.

      Changing ones mind is NOT a weakness in my book, but a strength. It shows thought and character. On the other hand, holding an opinion just for the sake of furthering your party's interests and country-be-damned, is, well, despicable.

      • http://dougsamu.wordpress.com dougrogers

        Yes, well put. But note, in the 2004 letter Harper does not use the word 'coalition' or in any way suggest that such an arrangement would be democratic.

        I remain deeply troubled by bergkamp's position,

    • danby

      Who cares?
      The Conservative Party seems to care enough to make it the focal point of their attack ads.

    • E_B_

      Maybe if this wasn't a KEY point of the Conservative non-stop campaign it would be easy to not be vexed by this. However, the extent of Mr. Harper's hypocrisy on this is truly mind-boggling.

      To keep regurgitating this crap shows an incredible disrespect for the intelligence of the Canadian electorate.

    • http://dougsamu.wordpress.com dougrogers

      What does that leave us to believe in?

    • briguyhfx

      Fact: "Loser's don't get to form coalitions" is a hypocritical statement, if uttered by someone who tried, as a loser, to form a coalition. End fact.

    • Vilpos

      bergkamp, you dutiful little Con shill!

      Must be thrilling to know that the Cons have made your ignorance a virtue.

  • Stewart_Smith

    It is great that Baird has finally cleared up this constitutional mess. Clearly he is correct, it is obvious that the person with the most votes wins elections. The problem was us; most of us thought this was a parliamentary democracy, silly us.

    Good news Conservative friends, your future is now, our new leader is el Presidente Jason Kenney, who with over 41,000 votes easily beat out SH, skippy, Max (my fav) and a host of BQ contenders. This would have been cleared up sooner if Pres. Kenney spoke for himself instead of going through PM Harper. (I believe in this new system, PM must stand for Presidential Mouthpiece.) So there you have it, democratic reform writ large, brought to us with the party that consistently demonstrates the most creative, versatile and self-serving takes on exactly how our system works. (at any particular point in time)

    brought to you by the citizens of Kenneyland, sponsored by Molson Kenney Lager Beer.

    • Mike T.

      Thank goodness nobody realized this when Myron Thompson was winning 99% of the votes in Red Deer.

  • EeeOar

    The Conservatives don't feel obliged to make an equivalent claim because they know that it is much less likely that they would ever get the "opportunity" to form a coalition – they look at the possible electoral outcomes and recognize that the number of likely coalition scenarios that include them is rather limited.

    OTOH, the Liberals do have the NDP as somewhat natural partners, and on that basis it makes complete sense for the CPC to try to force the Liberals to give up that advantage.

    • lgarvin

      It's not that much less likely since this very thread is discussing a Conservative coalition scenario that occured only seven years ago.

      • LdKitchenersOwn

        True, but how likely is it that the Liberals will get back up to around 120-135 seats this election? That'd be a 43-58 seat increase from where they are now.

        • lgarvin

          But Iggy – hell, all interested citizens – need to take a longer view. Letting the Conservatives ahistorical and illiterate version of Canadian democracy go unchallenged is lending it legitimacy. There is much more than a single election that is undermined by this.

          As I sit here typing, some buffoon on the radio is talking about a "Liberal coup" again.

          You don't slink away from ignorance and stupidity no matter how loud.

          • Mike T.

            OK then, how about "coalitions are legitimate, in the last decade both the conservatives and Liberals have thought about entering them. but I have no plans to form one in the upcoming election." Suits the present need AND gives weight to historical accuracy.

          • lgarvin

            Yes. A much better approach in my view.

            I think Iggy's current approach of avoiding the question is not wise.

          • Mike T.

            He should switch it around, though. Something like:

            "I have no plans to form a coalition. What bothers me is how Harper has lied not only about my intentions but about how parliament works,especially when he tried ot make a coalition work."

          • LdKitchenersOwn

            I don't disagree with that at all. My point was simply on the limited notion of a Tory coalition opportunity not being "that" unlikely. I think the Tories having an opportunity to form a coalition after the next election is EXTREMELY unlikely, but I agree that their scare-mongering rhetoric is extremely damaging in the long term, including potentially to the Tories' own future prospects of forming future governments through coalitions.

      • EeeOar

        Hmmm, yes, let me think about that for a moment…

        Perhaps I shouldn't have said "would ever get", but instead should have said "will, in today's context, get". Which is to say that I'm agreeing with LKO's number of seats analysis, above.

        Even if the election result is (eg) CPC=107, LPC=113, BQ=49 and NDP=37, with all the coalition moaning and groaning that we have heard from the CPC and its supporters over the last 2.5 years, you aren't really suggesting that Harper would immediately turn on a dime and start phoning the GG, making his case to get the first try to form a government with the willing assistance of the NDP are you? Wait a minute, that's exactly what you are saying, isn't it!! ;-)

    • LdKitchenersOwn

      the number of likely coalition scenarios that include them is rather limited

      Only because the Liberals and the Tories steadfastly refuse to even CONSIDER working together. That's the most obvious formulation of a coalition. Hell, I still contend that the Harper government, on almost every file, is CONSIDERABLY less conservative than we'd have if we'd elected a Liberal minority in 2004 (partly because there is no pressure on their right whatsoever to stay "conservative"). I look down the list of contentious issues in Parliament and to my mind the majority of them are only contentious because the Liberals and Tories are trying to differentiate themselves from one another. Harper Tories and Ignatieff Liberals are ideologically the most natural pairing of any two parties in the House, and if politics wasn't such B.S. they could be doing all kinds of things the majority of Canadians would like (including, imho, putting the Bloc in it's place for once and for all).

      Sadly, being PM is more important to both of the party's leaders than doing what is right for the country (though I suppose it was ever thus). I once had hopes that a minority Parliament would have all sorts of benefits for the people of Canada but I was being terribly naive. All it's gotten us is the same kind of government we've had for decades, just with different faces.

      Maybe it's just because I'm more centrist than I may sometimes come off in the comments, but I think I'd LOVE some sort of "National Unity" government consisting of the Liberals and the Tories. I think it would be potentially RIDICULOUSLY popular among voters too. But, of course, NEVER GOING TO HAPPEN.

      • EeeOar

        Yes

        Yes

        Hmmmmm

  • LdKitchenersOwn

    the fundamental democratic principle that the person with the most votes wins elections

    Yes John, and the person with the most votes in the House of Commons forms the government. It's not rocket science.

    I'm not saying it's going to hurt them in the election necessarily, but I find it really annoying (and insulting) that a big chunk of the Conservative campaign seems to be based on exploiting a combination of ignorance and fear. Memo to Tories: Canadians are neither stupid, nor fraidy cats, and we can smell hypocrisy.

    • lgarvin

      Exactly right. The Liberals need to stop ignoring this "applied misinformation" and speak to voters like intelligent adults.

      Don't let the Conservatives set the narrative.

      • Mike T.

        Giving a 200 word answer about how parliamentary democracy works when the best answer is "there won't be a liberal/ndp coalition" IS letting the CPC set the narrative.

        • lgarvin

          No it's not, because a direct and thoughtful answer will end the questions and allow the campaign to carry on. And, if you answer it in the proper tone, you can begin to change the narrative.

          • Mike T.

            We are going to have to agree to disagree on the likelihood of your technique working in this situation.

          • lgarvin

            Okay.

      • LdKitchenersOwn

        I have to agree with Mike T. I hate the Tory tactic of treating voters like scared ignorant children, and I think it's damaging to the country and to our democratic institutions, but there's a fair bit of evidence to suggest that treating voters like scared ignorant children WORKS.

        • lgarvin

          Yes, but what WORKS has brought us to this point.

          Maybe it's working for you, but it ain't working for me.

          • Mike T.

            Hey, if people cared about honesty, accountability, and thoughtful policy, Harper and the CPC would be polling in single digits.

          • lgarvin

            LOL

            Yeah but do you think the Liberals are going to win by outdoing the Cons in terms of duplicity and ignorance and fearmongering? In a race to the bottom, we all lose.

          • Mike T.

            Following my answer in no way stoops to Harper's level and I can't see why you would think it does.

            My plan merely fudges what I think is the true position – there won't be a coalition unless Harper suddenly springs something ugly on the other parties (ie, a coalition is possible, but not likely). It's hardly the worst thing to say "there will be no coalition" when really you mean "there is only a very small possibility of a coalition."

          • marte

            Some of YOU SHOULD be in the Liberal's communications department. Whoever their director of communications, he/she is incompetent in my opinion. They rarely if ever hit the nail on the head on any issue-generally missing the point that would resound with Canadian voters.
            I.E. Yesterday on TV M.I. said something to the effect that-Harper has shown a lack of respect for Parliament and our Institutions-. Big Deal.
            What's Parliament? Who cares or knows? Would it not have had a better effect to say something like…..Parliament represents Canadian people. By having been in contempt of Parliament Mr. Harper has actually shown great contempt and a total lack of respect for the people of Canada..

          • LdKitchenersOwn

            What's Parliament? Who cares or knows?

            Oh, God. It's not THAT bad, is it?

          • Thwim

            Unfortunately, you, and I, and LKO, and Mike T, and those who care about the system are in a minority of those who vote. The best and worst thing about democracy is that the majority rules.

          • LdKitchenersOwn

            It's not working for me either, my point is simply that it's working for the Tories. I agree that stopping that nonsense is what's best for the COUNTRY, but when was the last time a politician gave up something that's been helping their party get elected because it's what's best for the country?

          • TimesArrow

            I'm gonna take Garvins side in this. It doesn't help at all for the libs to not take a position on this[ Harper's going to be relentless in any case] and it doesn't fly with me to not take the high road simply because the low road is working for the other guy – besides it reeks of cowardice – something the elctorate will not reward: " Hell they can't even stand up for themselves Mildred. I not gonna vote for someone like that"__IMO MT outlined the best strategy above – stand by your rights and promise to follow the spirit and the letter of the law, while pointing out the fact that Harper used to think that way.[ It'll help to way that 04 letter around lots everytime Harper mentions coaltion]__There's no need to be stupid about this. But in the end i'd rather lose and have done the right thing then to have cravenly ceeded to Harper's law.

    • Wilf_Day

      "The tradition in the Canadian system is the leader with the largest number of seats gets to meet Parliament and form a government." Nonsense: in 1985 Frank Miller met the legislature, was defeated, and made way for the Liberal-NDP Accord.

  • chet

    I wonder what Canadians care more about right now:

    Whether a vote for Iggy means a vote for a Liberal NDP Bloc government, and all that entails,

    or

    Whether a statement made in some other context years and years ago, is consistent with a statement made today.

    That's a really tough call.

    I'm leaning toward the latter. No doubt, when Canadians go to the voting booths they're principal concern isn't who they're REALLY voting for, but the consistencies regarding years old statements.

    • Mike T.

      REst assured that nobody cares which way you lean.

    • tedbetts

      I wonder what Canadians care more about right now:

      Whether the government is corrupt and anti-democratic and facing a new criminal or other investigation into its conduct almost daily, and all that entails,

      or

      A statement made in some other context years and years ago, the context of which reverses the meaning implied by Conservative ads

      or

      Attacks on a candidate's family based on lies

      That's a really tough call.

      I'm leaning toward the two latter. No doubt, when Canadians go to the voting booths they're principal concern isn't who they're REALLY voting for, but how well a party can mislead us regarding years old statements.

    • Thwim

      How do you tell who you're REALLY voting for if they haven't been consistent?
      If they change their opinion because they learned something new.. that's one thing. If they change it because the wind blows north-northwest.. that's a little tougher.

      This is the primary problem I have with Mr. Harper. It's not even that he lies consistently. He doesn't. He tells the truth just often enough that he becomes completely unpredictable. Some, like psiclone, consider that an asset in the political maneuvering game. Perhaps. But the game we're in now is the electoral game.. one in which people want to have an idea of what policies the people they elect are going to follow. Electing Stephen Harper, or people that follow his direction, is a giant crap-shoot. You never know what's going to turn up on the dice.

      I think our country deserves better than that.

    • Reverend_Blair

      "Whether a vote for Iggy means a vote for a Liberal NDP Bloc government, and all that entails"

      I think I'd be careful with that particular meme if I were a Conservative. People who have been avoiding the polls due to our FTP system just might be encouraged to show up and vote against the Conservatives on that basis.

      • lgarvin

        Also, when it comes down to the short days, this Conservative narrative could play a part in a last minute swing of NDP/Green/Undecideds to the Liberals.

        • Reverend_Blair

          It could, although I'd hope it doesn't. The Liberals don't really represent the NDP or Green views very well and those voters deserve representation in the House. Nanos noted that the undecideds were growing though, and he seemed to think that was some sort of sign of something changing.

          • lgarvin

            I'm thinking more that the Conservatives "Majority or Bust" strategy might backfire on them in the end. As you said, it may get a lot of disgruntled voters off the couch, and it may see a lot more Greens & Dippers & perhaps even Bloc voters "loan" their votes through strategic voting.

            If the Conservatives are insisting that another Con Minority will not have a legitimate mandate, then their Coalition fear-mongering may become a self-fulfilling prophecy.

          • Reverend_Blair

            I think the big problem with strategic voting is that so many don't understand the strategy. In the last election I talked to a lot of people who were voting Liberal to keep the Conservatives out. The problem is that in their ridings the Liberals run a distant third and they should have been voting NDP. I assume that works both ways…that people don't check the numbers in their own ridings and end up voting NDP, Liberal, or Bloc based on erroneous information.

          • lgarvin

            I think that social media may change all that though… for instance, the site mentioned by Northern POV a couple of times and – one of my favourites from previous elections, the Election Prediction Project.

            The tools available to strategic voters are very powerful, it only takes the will to co-operate around a single "hub."

          • jonatwitan

            That's so funny, because here I thought all the stupid (that's the proper term, right?) people vote Conservative. Hmmm…

          • Thwim

            Of course not.

            Many of them don't vote at all.

          • http://halooverride.blogspot.com/ Halo_Override

            Ba-dum tshhhh!

          • MostlyCivil

            Suddenly, I want veal.

          • exccanuck

            ye gods, this is boring,

          • Thwim

            Feel free to leave then, your presence certainly isn't required.

          • http://canadiansense.blogspot.com/ CanadianSense

            Fidel?

          • D.D.S

            you must have missed the "feel free" part huh….

          • http://canadiansense.blogspot.com/ CanadianSense

            Raul?

    • former_ADB

      Regarding statements made years ago:
      I don’t hold exactly the same opinions I held fifteen or twenty years ago. I think it’s quite reasonable that my views change with time, being modified by experience and new information. I would hope therefore that if challenged I would be able to provide credible reasons why I had altered my views.

      Mr. Harper’s recent (i.e., post- Dec . 2008 )statements about coalitions and Canadian democracy are in conflict with his earlier statements and actions, but (to the best of my knowledge) he has not addressed these contradictions.

      One is left with the impression that these comments on “winners” and “losers” are intended purely for partisan advantage and demonstrate as well as anything, his (oft-cited) contempt for our parliamentary democracy and indeed, the Canadian electorate.

    • Stewart_Smith

      I feel compelled to defend chet; he is one of the most consistent and principled contributors to this blog. His position is really not that hard to parse.
      A Conservative, Bloc, NDP coalition is not a coalition, rather it is just one of many forms of legitimate Conservative government.
      A Liberal-NDP coalition is completely illegitimate, especially if the Bloc supports – making them separatists by association.
      Those are his principles, they are both clear & consistent and consistently self-serving.

    • http://canadiansense.blogspot.com/ CanadianSense

      Nik Nanos did a recap on October 15, 2008 and suggested the bulk of the shift came on the last weekend with family and friends over Thanksgiving. The Nik Nanos clip is in 1:36 into the Groundhog Day clip. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8JQq84nGBWU

      [youtube 8JQq84nGBWU http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8JQq84nGBWU youtube]

      The Liberals will have to improve their scripts. Trust and credibility won't work in 36 days with 10 million in mass advertising. (Dion will be vindicated)

    • http://democraticreform.feedcluster.com/ Mark Crowley

      they are really voting for their local member of parliament to represent their interests in whatever way they judge to be most appropriate once they get to ottawa. That's how our system works.

  • Patrick

    I find it absurd that a minority government resorts to this "anti-democratic" rhetoric when opposed by a group of elected officials who got more votes than they did! This is how it works, folks. The objective of parliamentary democracy is not to pick a winner. It's to have the people's will reflected among the legislators of our country.

  • Just Joe

    Had a nightmare at 3:00 a.m. — John Baird with Kirstie Alley, doing the Paso Doble on Dancing with the Stars.

    • http://halooverride.blogspot.com/ Halo_Override

      That's a dream come true, since it strongly implies a post-government John Baird.

  • chet

    It would be "democratic",

    if they came out and said they were forming a coalition, thereby giving the public a true choice between Harper and a coalition.

    Instead they're skulking about with half denials (while they're water carriers like Wherry here play the faux outrage card that Harper is even talking about it),

    all the while intending to do so, at the first chance.

    It's one thing in failing to deliver on this policy or that after an election. But springing on the public an entirely different government than they voted for, is about as undemocratic as you can get while still having votes.

    Indeed it's precisely because many conservative leaning Liberals wouldn't vote in a coalition (and many left leaning NDP) that they don't openly announce it.

    Let them think a vote for a Liberal is a vote for a Liberal (instead of Lib NDP Bloc) and do it afterwards.

    As unseemly as it gets. But the water carriers in the media just shrug (or worse openly cover for them).

    • Thwim

      I agree.. it is one thing to fail in delivering on a policy vs. springing an entirely different government.

      Except Harper is the one who sprang an entirely different government when he not only failed to deliver on policy, but did the exact opposite of what he promised he'd do.

      Even if a coalition had happened, it wouldn't be an entirely different government than the voters voted for because the bulk of policy positions would have stayed the exact same, and the changes would have been in policies that were promised but not enacted.

    • Logicfan

      "an entirely different government than they voted for," — ??? If a coalition is possible then a majority of Canadians voted against a Conservative government — simple math, no???

    • tedbetts

      "if they came out and said they were forming a coalition, thereby giving the public a true choice between Harper and a coalition."

      So are you calling the Conservative government in Britain undemocratic? Because Cameron actively and strongly campaigned against anykind of coalition with the Liberal-Democrats and even said it would be a disaster for Britain.

      Or is this a rule that only applies to Canada's government, er, sorry, I mean, The Stephen Harper Government (TM), post 2006?

  • Arturolexo

    Coalition stunk 6 years ago, coalition stunk 2 years ago, coalition stinks now.

    • Anon ABC

      Is your name Gaddafi by any chance? That nasty NATO coalition with Harper/Canada in it that is resisting the will of the people (i.e. my imperial will) …. ? Ever wonder why Harper did not use that c-word yesterday?

    • Thwim

      Yeah. Cooperation between groups is really such a downer on your black vs white world view, eh?

  • chet

    Those who choose to scrutinize this (like Ivison the other day) fairly conclude that the reason the Libs have done a 180 on corporate tax cuts is precisely because they needed to align with the NDP, for a coalition.

    But they dare not be open about this most crucial aspect of the election.

    Harper is right to talk about the coalition.

    And the non partisan public knows it.

    • LdKitchenersOwn

      I tend to agree (SHOCKING) with the limited notion that the coalition scare tactics won't hurt the Harper Tories and could even help them. However, unless one is quite confident of the Harper Tories getting a majority, or that the Liberals will never regain their former popularity, this over the top rhetoric could paint the future Kenney Tories into a corner. I'm not saying that Kenney (or someone else) is going to replace Harper if they get another minority (which I still think is overwhelimingly the most likley outcome of the 2011 election) only that it's not inconceivable that future Tories could find themselves in a position (again) of being able to take power away from the Liberals by forming a coalition, and half a decade of them on record mocking the very notion of a coalition as slimy and undemocratic isn't going to be helpful in that scenario.

      It seems to me that no one is thinking about the long game, or what is truly in the interests of Canadians, as opposed to politicians.

      • Reverend_Blair

        There is also the future scenario of the Conservatives wanting to form a coalition with a right-leaning Liberal Party to keep out an NDP government.

        • LdKitchenersOwn

          Let's not get all CRAZY with our hypotheticals! (lol, j/k… good point).

      • Atchison

        I'm hoping for a Conservative majority for the simple fact that it will give the Liberals several years to rebuild a party that never really recovered from the sponsorship scandal. Three elections and five years of minority government have done nothing but stunt the (re)development of the Liberal Party. Since 2006 they've gone from one lackluster leader to the other with the only present alternative being Bob Rae the man Michael Ignatiff was parachuted in to block.

        If Canadians want some semblance of order brought back to the House, the cycle of minority governments and the constant threat of imminent elections needs to end, so that the Liberal Party may be given time to make the structural changes it needs and groom the serious leadership it desperately wants. Without a respectable Liberal Party to act as a credible counter balance to the Tories the future entails several more years of hyper-partisanship, and feeble policy.

        • Reverend_Blair

          A minority without the disruptive influence of the Conservatives in charge can be very productive though, and lead to the Liberals actually listening to the electorate and rebuilding themselves accordingly.

          I also take issue the inference that today's Liberal Party is the same party that existed under Chretien and Martin in the past. It looks very different to me.

          • Atchison

            "I also take issue the inference that today's Liberal Party is the same party that existed under Chretien and Martin"

            Yes it is different; it is in shambles and is void of solid leadership.

            Canada's five year experiment with minority government has resulted in abject failure. Weak Grit leadership–in a desperate attempt to stop the disintegration of their base–has adopted a strategy of polarization. Instead of the Grits time tested strategy of grabbing whatever issue was flapping in the breeze, making it 'theirs' and then running as the party of progressive policy, they've been reduced to rejecting everything the Tories stamp their name on and have as a result relinquished their position as the party of Canadians.

            Unless the Grits can rebuild their leadership and become the policy innovators they once were instead of the policy contrarians they are now, they will forever remain in the political doldrums.

          • Blue

            Because of the constant silly cheerleading of the Wherry followers, I don`t spend much time on this site anymore so I have no idea if Atchison is a Liberal or Conservative supporter or a non-partisan, however these last 2 posts of his may be the best I have seen from anyone in years.

            Those of us that want to see good government in Canada know that it is crucial that there be 2 strong centrist parties so that voters will use their democratic right to choose to alternate between these two parties. Right now there is only one–the Liberal Party has shown no signs of having any more insight or vision then they had 7 years ago.

            Atchison`s posts should be required reading every morning by every Liberal in every room until Liberals are ready to form government again.

          • Thwim

            You're just wrong as a baseline.

          • LdKitchenersOwn

            I was wondering myself if Atchison's post (which makes some good points) was an example of legitimate concern or a post by a "concern troll".

            I'm pretty sure which side of the divide your post falls on though.

          • Blue

            It should not matter what you think of either Atchison or myself. If you are really concerned that we have good government in this country then you should be receptive of constructive criticism.

            If you just would like the Liberal Party back in power for even a short time, no matter what the methods of operation, then carry on.

          • LdKitchenersOwn

            LOL,

            OK, that was a good one. Responding to my accusation that your last poll was concern trolling with a second post that is another stereotypical example of a concern troll post?

            BRILLIANT.

          • Blue

            As I said carry on. if your head in the sand approach is similar to that of the leaders of your party, then you will probably have many more years watching a Conservative government from the second or third or fourth place seats.

          • MostlyCivil

            Goodness. You appear to be concerned about the future of the Liberal party. Quite noble, really.

          • MostlyCivil

            "Aaron, this is the 50th time… I don't think it's going to gain any real traction."

            He's got you counting his posts. That's traction.

          • Poker Face

            Touché

          • LdKitchenersOwn

            LOL

            It just doesn't end!!!

            (Also, it's not exactly "my party". Frankly, I didn't even vote for them in the last two elections).

          • Blue

            I think we may have identified a fundamental flaw in the Liberal Machine.
            Even those who spend countless, thankless, hours volunteering for the Liberals say they don`t vote Liberal.
            The only one who consistently contributes to the party and identifies himself as a voting Liberal is danby—well maybe tedbetts, if he remembers to put it on his list on voting day.

          • Thwim

            Actually.. we're volunteering for truth in governance.

            And it wouldn't be so much work if you guys didn't work so hard against it.

          • LdKitchenersOwn

            ROFLMAO

            OK, now you're just playing for laughs.

            Also, I would have thought the Liberals would take heart at the fact that there are people like me who haven't voted for them since Martin's first minority, yet might be persuaded to vote for them again. I've been persuaded to vote Tory in the past too, but at this point you couldn't get me to vote for the Harper Tories if you paid me.

          • Thwim

            If you look at what the Liberal party today actually is and is doing, instead of what the CPC portrays it to be, you'll see that you are, in fact, completely wrong.

          • LdKitchenersOwn

            The problem is, almost no one is looking at what the current Liberal party actually is, and what they're doing. All they see is an effete, elitist, America-loving, Russian prince coming at them from their T.V. screens as though he's emerging from the red bowels of Hell to form a new government of communists and traitors.

          • Thwim

            That's because they're currently just "The Opposition".

            Once the campaign gets underway they become "contenders" and the media gets more interested in policy statements so that they have some nice, easy comparison articles to write.

            And while the CPC has been busy attacking the Liberals, from what I can tell from their websites, the Liberals have actually been busy getting their policies ready.

          • LdKitchenersOwn

            Well, I certainly agree that the different environment of an election could change things, that's an excellent point.

            I'm still not convinced though that policy and earnestness would win in a fight over ignorance and fear.

          • Thwim

            2008 would seem to be the example that proves your point, but I would suggest that example shouldn't be taken as too reflective, as Dion was dealing a host of other issues, not the least of which was his own (lack of) performance during the previous two years. His playing the real-politik game of no-show that Harper devised turned off, I believe, many potential Liberal voters. His campaign performance and mocking by the media (specifically Coyne… remember Richard Peregrino?) were also factors that I think served to undercut the policy and earnestness he was attempting to provide.

          • Atchison

            I'm a PC who is legitimately concerned about the fate of the Grits, a party which I tend not to agree with, but respect because of their contribution to political discourse. The Grits today pale in comparison to the Grits of the past sixty years. I see a party which is lacks leadership and is unfocused.
            The public doesn’t react to ‘scandelettes’ like Bev Oda, contempt of parliament, etc. This just feeds into the Tory line–“he didn’t come back for you” —that the Grits will force an election over any issue to grab the reins of power.

          • martin

            We will have to wait and see what policies they run on then.

        • Mike T.

          But yet iggy is better than Harper. Why not everybody just votes for the better candidate?

        • Pele

          Exactly,

          When the Leafs stacked up on veterans in 2003 and proceeded to get eliminated early I felt that they needed to break the team apart and start from scratch. Rebuild with new talent and good draft picks. They failed to do this, giving the Muskoka 5 no trade clauses. They have been a perpetual loser since.

          It's only this year that the idea of rebuilding with a youth movement and re-inventing their identity has really gained traction in Leaf management. However, 10 years have been wasted.

          The Liberals haven't gone back to the drafting board and began the rebuild that is necessary. They will continue to be perpetual losers until they do.

  • chet

    So to recap:

    Bev Oda not being able to answer who put a "not" on one thousands of government documents: an outrage of our political lifetimes.

    The would be leader of our next government not answering a basic question about the fundamental composition of our government should he gain power: fine, just fine.

    We're not in Kansas anymore Toto.

    • D.D.S

      No Chet…we are in a Parlimentary Democracy….where we elect an MP to represent us in Parliment….I have no problem with a coalition of elected MP's….why should I….Hypocracy however REALLY annoys me……

    • LdKitchenersOwn

      I've gotta say, I don't agree at all with the premise of your point, but that's one of the most cogent comments I've ever seen you write. It's not RIDICULOUSLY hyperbolic, it's not completely illogical, and there are no weird random carriage returns in the middle of any of the sentences for no apparent reason.

      It's amazing the rapid improvements being made to AI software these days.

    • http://halooverride.blogspot.com/ Halo_Override

      Oh chet, you were never in Kansas, ever.

    • http://democraticreform.feedcluster.com/ Mark Crowley

      he can't know the answer until he sees the numbers can he? He can't rule it out, its a perfectly legitimate option given a minority parliament, as Harper talking to the NDP and Bloc demonstrates, as the ruling UK coalition demostrates using the exact same system as us. Why should he disavow it OR promise he will form a coalition. It really depends on the outcome of the election. That's all he should say, "it depends, we'll see what happens. I want to win a majority. But we will do what we can to form a government that represents the largest number of voters that we can after we see the results of the election. The Canadian voter is in charge here."

  • Mike T.

    While your concerns are legitimate, I think my answer is sitll better strategically and not that far off the mark in reality.

    • lgarvin

      I'm a little tired of "strategy" – I'd like some honesty for a change.

      Look where the strategic genius of Stephen Harper has gotten us.

      • Mike T.

        You can have a winning strategy without descending to Harper levels.

  • Anon

    After what is happening in Britain, a coalition, if there is to be one, will not happen between Layton and Harper. So the only viable coalition is Harper-Duceppe, which will last a few weeks, and the LibDem/Bloc coalition, which can stumble on for months.

    • West newf

      Just in from the national post.

      Majority government in the pending federal election is there for the Conservatives to lose, if you believe a new poll taken after the budget this week.

      The Ipsos Reid poll for Postmedia News has the Tories entering the campaign in majority territory at 43%, almost 20 points ahead of the Liberals, who have fallen back to 24% support. The Harper government recorded a healthy lead over the Liberals in almost every region — ahead by 16 points in Ontario (46 versus 30), seven points in Quebec (25 versus 18) and 28 points in British Columbia (50 versus 22). It also leads among young people, the middle-aged, seniors, men and women.

      Unless Michael Ignatieff is playing a long-strategic game and targeting the under-18s, it would seem fair to suggest his attempt to unseat Stephen Harper as Prime Minister has not started quite as well as he might have hoped.

      Suck on it Liberals

    • http://democraticreform.feedcluster.com/ Mark Crowley

      depending on the numbers a Lib-NDP coalition could rule more stably even with a minority. The Bloc would agree with them more than they do the conversavtives even if they are not part of a coalition, so they will get more done. As long as the conservatives don't try to obstruct using their unelected senate majority, ahem.

  • Loraine Lamontagne

    Would Stephen Harper refuse to stay in power if he had a minority or would he seek to solidify his position, maybe by offering a ministry to some, as he did with Emerson, or with a formal alliance? The contempt finding would make it more difficult, but still theoretically possible. He remains prime minister, even if his party comes in second place after all.

    We need to be reassured that all leaders vying to become prime minister can 'put aside party differences and work hard for the common good and for the national interest'.

    • Reverend_Blair

      Harper could make Pat Martin the Minister of Ethics in a Conservative/NDP coalition.

      I would actually pay money to see that.

    • Anon

      Are you kidding me? He is going to kiss — literally and figuratively — Layton and Duceppe's butt to stay in power. Even Iggy's Russian butt.

  • LdKitchenersOwn

    What's ironic is that I really believe that if the Liberals and NDP were so darned keen to form a coalition, they could (potentially) CRUSH the Tories.

    Scenario: Announce to the country that if the Tories are going to sling the "Coalition with the Separatists" bogeyman all election long that you've decided you might as well cut off that argument at the knees, so you've decided to run jointly as a coalition which will take power if it gets the most seats without needing to rely on the Bloc, but will not take power if they have to rely on the Bloc. Then, just run whichever "coalition" candidate is most likely to beat the Tory in any given riding. Lots of Dippers in B.C. with no Liberal competition, lots of Liberals in Ontario with no NDP competition, etc… It's not guaranteed to work, but it could be pretty game changing.

    Never going to happen of course, but it would be fun to watch.

    • NorthernPoV

      the parties will not do it (this time)
      it is up to the voters to implement this strategy

      • LdKitchenersOwn

        In theory, that's an exciting prospect. In reality, voters won't do it.

    • Reverend_Blair

      I'd be worried about the backlash in that case…NDP and Liberal loyalists are likely to greatly resent not having their party as a choice on the ballot.

      It would reduce the vote split greatly though. I think it would be worth a couple of ridings for the NDP in Saskatchewan and a couple (one for the Liberals, one for the NDP) in Manitoba though. Likely a bunch elsewhere too.

      • LdKitchenersOwn

        I'd be worried about the backlash in that case…NDP and Liberal loyalists are likely to greatly resent not having their party as a choice on the ballot.

        I don't think the backlash would be that great and besides, what are they going to do, vote Tory? I think anyone who was going to abandon the Liberals for the Tories has already done so, and I don't see any NDP voters swinging that far right. It could drive down the Liberal / NDP vote (less supporters at the polls) but even if such a coalition came in second, they'd still be in a better position in Parliament than they are today. A single caucus of 114 MPs is a bigger barrier to the Tories running roughshod over Parliament than two separate caucuses of 77 and 37. The Tories would need to court the Bloc on any legislation the Liberal-NDP caucus opposed, leaving the Tories with only two options, negotiate with the coalition, or negotiate with the separatists.

        Again, NEVER going to happen, but it would be interesting to see!

        • http://halooverride.blogspot.com/ Halo_Override

          I don't think the backlash would be that great and besides, what are they going to do, vote Tory?

          Somewhere, Elizabeth May just got a tingly feeling all over and doesn't know why.

        • Bryan

          I'm not entirely sure it works the way you're thinking. The first election I ever voted in (Ontario 1995) gave me John Baird as an MPP. I was so turned off by his behaviour, I didn't bother to vote again until 2004. And the only reason I voted then was Harper had been all, "Maybe we'll get a majority if the polls are right" which disturbed me, and I disliked Paul Martin's "it's my right to be Prime Minister" stance (and my Lib candidate was pro-Iraq war defense minister David Pratt, which didn't make not voting Liberal a hard choice to come to), so voting NDP was my protest against two awful parties. Had the NDP not been a choice on the ballot due to an agreement between those Libs/NDP, I would've just voted Green, or any other independent candidate.

    • brooster2

      This scenario has been suggested in comments on previous posts, where I've argued it would be a legal sinkhole for both the NDP and the Liberals. The non-compete arrangements would have to be negotiated at the national level of each party. They would, almost certainly, trigger a flurry of legal challenges at the local riding level in either/both parties, challenging their party's right to deny local authority around candidate selection. And, even if the exercise survived such challenges, the foot soldiers at the local level in those ridings whose candidates were sidelined by non-compete agreements would be so demoralized, they'd boycott the entire election.

      IMO, it's a non-starter.

      • LdKitchenersOwn

        And, of course, that's all the way down at #6 on the very long "reasons this won't happen" list. Still, hypotheticals are fun.

  • E_B_

    I think I first mentioned this some two months ago, and Danby has expressed it much better than I have above…

    By even discussing a coalition, we have to some extent bought into the snake oil the Conservatives are trying to sell. Regardless of the outcome of any election there does not need to be a coalition formal or otherwise. There isn't one now and we already have a minority government, why would we need one in the future?

    If the coming election leaves the results pretty much the same as we have now (Conservatives in a minority but with the most seats) they should have an opportunity to form a government and present a throne speech. If the rest of the MPs are smart, they will, at the first opportunity, defeat the throne speech.

    The Governor General will then have two choices. He can either immediately throw us in to another $300M election, or he can ask the leader of the opposition to attempt to form a government and present a throne speech.

    If, under this scenario, the Liberals form a government and present a throne speech, it will stand or fall on a vote in the House.

    People! Talk of a coalition is a canard. It plays upon the ignorance of the electorate to not understand how a parliamentary democracy works. We have had 5 years of minority government with no formal coalition in place. How would it be any different if some other party was in power?

    Mr. Harper and the Conservatives must be laughing at all of us, that we are so easily fooled by this idiocy.

    • former_ADB

      Excellent points all!

    • brooster2

      I concur. Ignatieff has wisely refused to get drawn into unnecessary speculation about post-election negotiations, especially since all the other parties seem to be getting a free pass on the question..

    • LdKitchenersOwn

      This is all perfectly fair and reasonable. That said, playing to fear and ignorance actually tends to WORK in elections so while I agree that even discussing it is to take the Tory bait, NOT discussing it is to let the Tories frame the narrative – and their narrative is of an elitist Russian prince sent by the Americans to undermine our nation by installing a government of communists and traitors through a coup d-etat.

      I agree that the Tories are probably laughing at the electorate for falling for this, but they're laughing because the electorate ARE FALLING FOR THIS.

    • http://canadiansense.blogspot.com/ CanadianSense

      "People! Talk of a coalition is a canard. It plays upon the ignorance of the electorate to not understand how a parliamentary democracy works. "

      Perhaps a few opposition MPs will catch the Ispos-flu and miss a vote tomorrow.

      I have full confidence in the public rewarding the coalition attempt in November 2008. This general election will set the record straight of our PM vs the coalition in the opposition. (Don't worry be happy)

      Tories shrug off opposition attacks, surge to 19 point lead http://fullcomment.nationalpost.com/2011/03/24/jo…

      The following seat projection is based upon a blended sample of three weighted polls conducted by Ipsos, Nanos and Harris-Decima from March 10 to March 20. (152 seats- CPC) http://www.wlu.ca/lispop/seatprojections.html

  • Stewart_Smith

    Although the Bloc are actually very well behaved political party, it is true that their underlying objective is the splitting of the country. Of course, this is the reason they were not a member of Dion's coalition. It would be interesting to know more about the structure of the Harper04* coalition. In any case, both Dion and Harper04* felt compelled to reach out to the Bloc based on what I believe is a fallacious assumption that while parties can form governments without a majority, coalitions cannot. This is simply ridiculous in a many-party parliamentary democracy.

    A major challenge to arriving at a functional solution with the reality of a regional, separatist party is that the GG is constrained by convention rather than clear rules. I suspect it will take years of successive GG carefully nudging us towards a workable system, a process that many will find painfully slow. Personally I am more interested in the long-term, while Harper09, Harper10 & Harper11* have been nasty they done remarkably little permanent damage to Canada. I wish His Excellency the Right Honourable David Johnston and his successors the best in their task.

    * Please note I have adopted a novel naming structure for highly principled individuals whose principles suffer from temporal instabilities. It was inspired by that used to denote dangerous radioactive isotopes.

    • Blue

      Instead of playing these silly fantasy games about what might have happened seven years ago if there had been some kind of coalition formed to overthrow the Martin government and how that may have been similar or different to the actual agreement between the Liberal-NDP-Bloc Agreement of 2008, it might be more useful for Liberal supporters to attempt to understand why Canadians believe a coalition like the 2008 proposal would be so destabilizing to the economy that only inside-partisan-types from the opposition parties are even considering it.

      • Loraine Lamontagne

        More destabilizing would be a prime minister who cannot 'put aside party differences and work hard for the common good and for the national interest'.

        • Blue

          Show me how the Canadians feel that they have been living in a destabilizing environment for the past 5 years—please don`t give me the "ted betts list " of Liberal talking points where he plays with words like corrupt and contempt and coalition.

          I think Canadians have shown remarkable unity recovering from the recession in the past 2 years.

          • Stewart_Smith

            We agree, Canadians have shown remarkable unity while recovering from the recession due to the economic action forced upon the Conservatives by the prospect of the de-stabilizing coalition.

            I don't disagree the Dion-lead coalition would have been a bad thing. The Conservatives won a not just a plurality of seats but a large plurality. Moreover from Bett's list of misactions, at that time very few were more than accusations of illegality or unsavory political maneuvering, i.e. there were lots of reason for concern, but not nearly enough evidence for a conviction (Ted will no doubt disagree which is fine). As a result, the transition to the new Harper government should have been straightforward but it was anything but.

            I do recall that the Dion-lead coalition did not occur simply because the Liberals lost an election, but rather because after winning an election the Conservatives immediately pulled an (un-campaigned for) change in the financing of future elections that was decidedly in their favour. All parties push procedural rules & conventions to varying degrees to gain a short term advantage especially leading up to an election. To some extent the public accepts this as political gamesmanship. Long term attacks on democracy are another issue and I think in Canada, wrangling over riding boundaries is fairly carefully done to avoid accusations of gerrymandering, although there are certainly regional disparities (which largely hurt the Conservatives) and rural-city disparities (that help them) To my knowledge, this is the first time any party has attempted to gain permanent political advantage in every riding in the country through such a policy maneuver. The Dion-lead coalition would have been a very bad thing. Fortunately, the threat of that coalition stopped something even worse from happening. Personally I think we all owe a debt of gratitude to her Excellency the Right Honourable Michaëlle Jean who saw us through the mess Harper & Dion conspired to create.

          • Blue

            That was a thoughtful reply. I know it is not a good idea to imagine how things may have been different in the past if circumstances had only been slightly different, however, I suspect that Harper would have found it impossible not to take the stimulating economic action that almost every other nation did at that time. If he did not realize it was necessary himself, then there would have been an excellent opportunity for the opposition to get behind the wishes of the Canadian people and pressure the government to act, as well as the pressure they would have received from fellow G-20 countries.
            Since we are using hindsight today, don`t you think that there were several better options available to the opposition in Dec. 2008 then the extreme action they took ?

          • Stewart_Smith

            I wrote a long answer, (and timed out). Short answer. Yes, I think Harper would have gone alone with some stimulus just due to international pressure. However, I agree with Coyne, the stimulus spending in Canada was borderline useless… it simply came too late to matter. (I have some conservative elements in my philosophy, better to leave money in the bank if you dont know how to spend it.)

            As to killing/delaying the change to party funding. I cannot think of any other carrot or stick other than the lose of power that would have deterred Harper at that point in time. It was truly a grab at long term power, perhaps the only chance for long-term stable majorities in our current political climate. It was wrong to do it unilaterally then and still would be following the next election. My guess is that the Conservatives will campaign on the issue and make it legitimate, win a minority and a process will be established that implements a compromise (for Conservatives watered-down, for Liberals tolerable). Hell, this is Canada.

    • LdKitchenersOwn

      Although the Bloc are actually very well behaved political party, it is true that their underlying objective is the splitting of the country.

      I'm not even certain that this is technically true. The PQ's underlying objective is to break up the country, however, I believe the Bloc's underlying objective is simply to get as much out of the country for Quebec as they can until that happens.

  • BGLong

    Only slightly off topic, but does this mean that the release of Afghan detainee documents ..
    awaited breathlessly, I know .. is a non-starter ? Whoodathunk !
    Oh, Jack , Jack .. how could you ?
    Guess I'll have to ask Petey when he hits the campaign trail … and if he allows a follow-up
    maybe I"ll ask about this …
    http://thechronicleherald.ca/Front/1234627.html

    Anybody seen that loose-lipped guy around lately ?

  • theletterm

    $105 billion in debt repaid between 1997 and 2008 wiped-out:

    http://taxpayer.com/federal/debt-clock-marks-mile…

    Conservatives erasing all the debt paid by the Liberals (mostly). Hmmph…

    When the word "Progressive" was taken out of the party name, they really meant it. We are now back in '97.

    • http://canadiansense.blogspot.com/ CanadianSense

      Did you include the money (Billions) from the three years the Liberal government illegally raised payroll taxes as ruled the the Supreme Court of Canada?

      The pensions of the civil servants (military, RCMP)

      The gutting of the military or transfers in Health, Education and Social Services? ($ 25 billion) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PspWvRDzcF8

      [youtube PspWvRDzcF8 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PspWvRDzcF8 youtube]

  • lgarvin

    I am the same Lawrence Garvin and I probably have changed (at least a little, I hope). But what way do you think I've changed? For the better, right?

  • LdKitchenersOwn

    A formal definition would be a government in which the different cabinet portfolios are divided up among members of the different parties. You may have a Liberal running the ministry of finance but a New Democrat running the Ministry of Health. That's what a coalition government really means.

    The Tories don't define a coalition that way, they can't. One can't use that definition of "coalition" if one wants to continue pretending that the Bloc were a part of the proposed 2008 one.

    • Leo

      From the 2004 letter to the GG "to consult the opposition leaders and consider all of your options before exercising your constitutional authority" No mention of a coalition yet we assume that was what is inferred? "What wicked webs we weave when we aim to decieve", lol!!! Yikes, politics, guess we will never know.

      The opposition parties in Canada's Parliament in 2004 ask the Governor General, Adrienne Clarkson, to consider a coalition of the parties as an alternate government to Paul Martin's minority Liberal government. The proposal, authored by Stephen Harper, Gilles Duceppe, and Jack Layton, suggests an even tighter relationship between the Bloc and other opposition parties than that proposed in the 2008 coalition agreement.

      This document is a facsimile based on text found reposted by several bloggers, the CBC, and Maclean’s magazine.
      The original, signed document could not be sourced.
      http://www.docstoc.com/docs/56785628/2004-Coaliti…

  • http://intensedebate.com/people/Ottawa_Centrist Ottawa_Centrist

    If whomever I vote for wants to form a coalition, I just have one Canadianism in response:

    Giv'er

    The only time I have ever given money to a political party was to support the coalition. It was the first concrete move in my lifetime to de-centralize power away from the PMO and one specific party. It's a multi-party system that weighs thousands of competing and diverse interests. If parties work together in a positive fashion, that is progress and indicates a healthy democracy.

    I don't fear a coalition. I do fear intention misleading and fear-mongering coinciding with a greater concentration of arbitrary power operating in greater secrecy.

    • gottabesaid

      I'm with you. Assuming that we get another minority parliament, if we ended up with a Con-NDP, Lib-NDP, or even Con-Lib coalition, we'd end up with a government that is more representative of the population as a whole than one party trying to stickhandle solo as a government. As the last six years have shown, the adversarial approach hasn't been doing anybody any good. And, given that we keep electing minority governments, isn't safe to assume the public wants a bit more co-operation?

      • HarveyMushman

        You guys must have huge wallets.

        …or maybe from Quebec.

    • Pele

      It's nice to talk ideology and philosophy, but let's look at the real situation here. The current potential for a coalition government involves giving the Bloc the balance of power. This HAS to be more distasteful to you than carrying on with the status quo.

      Let's deal with coalitions at a more opportune time. I, like most Canadians, am not opposed to coalitions. Heck, I, like most Canadians, am all for a positive shake-up to our current governmental situation. However, giving the Bloc the balance of power is unacceptable.

      P.S. Is there any reason why the opposition couldn't just let the current term run it's completion? By then the Conservatives may have hung themselves, the Liberals would have galvanized and swallowed the NDP and things would swing hard to the left. As it is, the Liberals seem intent on self-destructing.

      • Thwim

        I'm still trying to figure out how the coalition would give the Bloc the balance of power any more than it has now. After all, if the Bloc turned around and voted for the government on Friday, the government will stay in power. That seems like they hold the balance pretty solidly right there. So how is that in any way different from if a Liberal/NDP Coalition were supported in a similar fashion?

        Hell the only real difference is that the Lib/NDP group had the foresight to get a Confidence & Supply agreement from the Bloc.. in effect taking away the power that the Bloc had.

        Unfortunately, when it comes to the Bloc, far too many Canadians stop thinking and looking at evidence, and just go with their first knee-jerk reaction.

        • Holly Stick

          It's just a Harper lie.

From Macleans