Categories: Andrew Coyne, Capital Read

Gilles Duceppe, federalist hardliner

by Andrew Coyne on Sunday, March 27, 2011 3:10pm - 67 Comments

“Mr. Duceppe clarified that he, too, would never be part of a formal coalition with the other parties, saying it would be “against nature” for the separatist party to be government ministers.”

Thus putting him offside with the countless Canadian academics, politicians and blog commenters who are quite ready to explain why it’s perfectly all right for a party dedicated to the destruction of Canada to also be governing it.

Tags: cabinet, coalition, Election 2011, federalism, Gilles Duceppe, Insanity, self-abnegation

More by Andrew Coyne

noob_goldberg

There are people who are actually advocating that it would be possible for the BQ to actually govern Canada?

I've never accepted that it actually would fall within the realm of possibility. It always sounded like a tautological argument, like how many separatists could dance on the head of a pin.
Abroad

Wow, Duceppe seems to really be owning Harper on the whole coalition question. Wonder if anyone in the rest of the country is listening?
Bill

If Harpo is smart, he'll tack away from coalition talk…he's losing badly.

Reverend_Blair

Yeah, he's getting whipped by Duceppe and Layton and having to run away from press.

ektar

My sense is that hardcore Conservatives are lacking the faculty to feel shame and embarrassment, but between Harper's rambling diatribe against coalitions yesterday morning and his attempt to shut-down questions today I can't see how Canadians could feel anything but shame and embarrassment if this is the man we choose to lead our country.

avr

Keep telling yourself that. I suspect an outcome like that old chestnut of an anecdote about Pauline Kael – you people won't understand how Harper got re-elected, because no one you know voted for him!

LdKitchenersOwn

Well, there is some truth to that. Certainly no one I know voted for him (excluding people I "know" here in the comments, for example).

I actually thought about this for a little bit after I read your comment, and it's true, I don't know a single person who voted for the Harper conservatives. At least, I don't know anyone who would admit to it publicly.

avr

Yeah, it's become just a tiny bit echo-chambery in here, eh? Hence why I get instantly spite-downvoted by most of the mob with every comment.

LdKitchenersOwn

Well, I`m not sure the one point leads to the other exactly. After all, in HERE, at least some of the people complaining about the Tories DID vote for them, or so they say.

s_c_f

When 38% of the country voted Conservative, and you claim you know not a single person who did so, that's surprising. I know people who voted for all 3 of Lib, NDP, Con. In the past I've met plenty of BQ voters as well.

LdKitchenersOwn

I should clarify that it`s not that I don`t know anyone who`s voted Conservative EVER (I’ve actually done so myself) it’s just that I don’t know anyone who voted for the Harper Conservatives (or, more accurately, anyone who says that they voted for the Harper Conservatives). However, that’s also just indicative of my self-selected social circle, my family, and where I live. I live in Toronto, and work at a university, and I come from a socially liberal family, so there just aren’t that many people in my social circle who would ever vote Tory, and those that do are probably as loud about it as people who vote NDP in Alberta. I’m sure some of the people I know did (and will) vote for the Harper Tories, but as most conversations about the election where I live start something like “Can you believe these clowns are going to win another election!?!?!” they probably don’t talk about it much!
ShirtPlaid

Putting all politics aside, aren't you embarassed about that?

What's the opposite of diversity? University!!!

Hey, I do a lot of volunteer work with university students who are 95% left wing. The right wingers embarassingly admit that they vote Liberal. For most, it's a toss up between the Greens and the NDP.
I am supervising 3 right now. I can put aside politics to focus on common goals. I will admit, naive university students don't really challenge my beliefs, I do the opposite which is part of the motivation to volunteer. Coming face-to-face with 3rd world poverty challenges everybody's assumptions, regardless of political stripe.

You need to get out more. Seriously. At the very least, it would improve your arguments on these boards.
LdKitchenersOwn

Just because I disagree with the Conservatives doesn`t actually make me wrong.
Mike T.

Know what I find is a big factor uniting people who admit to voting for the Harper conservatives?

They don't follow politics very closely.
Mike T.

Coming face-to-face with 3rd world poverty challenges everybody's assumptions, regardless of political stripe.

***

But I can't see it making somebody vote for Harper.

http://canadiansense.blogspot.com/ CanadianSense

Yes those 143 seats and 5/7 in by elections were crushing defeats after his squeaker in 2006.

What is the Lib-NDP record in by elections since 2006? How does their balance sheet including fundraising from small donations compare?

The following seat projection is based upon a blended sample of four weighted polls conducted by Ipsos, Nanos and Harris-Decima from March 10 to March 23. The aggregate sample includes approximately 5000 respondents. It suggests that the stable pattern of party preference over the past six weeks might have been broken with the most recent Ipsos poll. Stephen Harper's Conservatives have apparently edged into majority territory. This projection assumes an 10% Conservative lead in Ontario. This is the first time since the 2008 election that the LISPOP projection shows the Conservatives with over 155 seats. As things stand, it seems to be in Ontario, particularly the bedroom suburbs surrounding Toronto, that the prospects for a Conservative majority in the forthcoming election are being determined. This is the first projection since the parliamentary accountability issue became prominent, and at the moment it doesn't yet seem to have had much impact.
http://bit.ly/et0kwL

Mr. King

In 2004 the Liberals beat the Tories by thirteen points in the popular vote (44.7% vs 31.5%) in Ontario. In 2006 their lead shrunk to five points (39.9% vs 35.1%) and disappeared altogether in the last campaign, which the Tories won by five points (39.2% vs 33.8%). The resulting seat counts (75-24; 54-40; 51-38) suggest that a ten-point Tory lead in Ontario is probably worth at least 65 seats from that province on election day.

http://canadiansense.blogspot.com/ CanadianSense

I have made a prediction of a slim majority before the latest batch of polls on March 23, 2011.
http://canadiansense.blogspot.com/2011/03/conserv…

Polls have gotten worse for the Liberals.

The Bloc, NDP and Liberals are going to have a difficult time explaining how 2004 letter was similar to the 2008 coalition deal.

Taxpayers will get a chance to punish them for the 2008 failed coup and the 4th election in 7 years. I almost feel sorry for them.
s_c_f

interesting

brooster2

"If Harpo is smart, he'll tack away from coalition talk…he's losing badly."

On the evidence so far, he doesn't seem to have anything else to talk about. An empty policy cupboard, so to speak.

Brighton Bugler

In their haste to anoint any foe of Stephen Harper as a worthwhile Canadian, the self-referencing cognoscenti move ever closer to nominating Gilles Duceppe for an Order of Canada.
Leo

Next question for Duceppe is: Would you agree to sign an agreement, just like you did in 2008, to support the Liberal and NDP and not veto anything they put forward for 18 months

Joff

That's not much of a question – the Bloc platform, adopted in February, says "le Bloc québécois se réserve la possibilité de soutenir une coalition de partis politiques" – the Bloc reserves the possibility of supporting a coalition.

Leo

Didn't see that, thx. So I guess the next question is how much is your support going to cost the rest of Canada??

madeyoulook

Thus putting him offside with the countless Canadian academics, politicians and blog commenters who are quite ready to explain why it’s perfectly all right for a party dedicated to the destruction of Canada to also be governing it.

Andrew, once it became perfectly ok for a party dedicated to the destruction of Canada to be Her Majesty's *cough* Loyal *cough* Opposition, I suppose for many that horse had left the barn.

Mr. King

That was a mistake. The Official Opposition needs to be an alternative government to do its job properly; finishing second in seats is no substitute for having the responsibility of actually figuring out how to do the government's job better than the incumbents and making your case for doing so to the people at the next election. The Bloc is a perpetual protest party, with no ambition to ever be anything else. That alone should have disqualified it, but no one wanted to have that fight at the time, so a nonsensical precedent was set.

Mr. King

Oh, yeah, now it shows up, after I repeated myself below. grumble grumble

Mr. King

That was a big mistake. The Official Opposition is supposed to be an alternative Government, a group which, at least theoretically, could take over from the incumbent government at any time — coming in "second place" is not enough. Sadly, no one wanted to have that argument at the time, so a foolish precedent was set.

LdKitchenersOwn

Of course, this is hardly new either. Duceppe explained more than once in 2008 that the BQ was not interested in being in a coalition with federalist parties. Some people just chose to ignore him because it was convenient for them politically to do so.
dave

*sigh*

There's nothing, beyond optics, wrong with the Bloc from being part of a coalition. The thing you're missing Andrew is that the optics go both ways. Duceppe will never do more than what he pledged in 2008, that is to not vote against confidence measures for a fixed time, because to actively take part in governance and get results proves federalism works if Quebec chooses to participate.

He'd never live that down.
Blue

Every time Duceppe mentions the word coalition in Quebec he gains another 100 Quebecois votes—-the thought of the Bloc having some control of the wheel of power in Canada would be such a prize for many Quebecers.
Every time Duceppe mentions the word coalition in Quebec Harper gains another 1000 votes outside of Quebec.
Think about it—-the only party who would bring the Bloc into an arrangement to attain government is the Liberals.
It is just silly talk to imagine any coalition arrangement between Harper and Duceppe.

You can talk all you like about 2005 but any thinking voter knows that Duceppe wants that coalition so much he can taste it and the only way he can join is through the Liberals, therefore, The Conservatives must love it when Duceppe talks coalition.

Andrew (not PorC)

Hey Blue, where did you get your figures? I'm assuming the posterior extraction method, right?

Blue

…….and this from someone who, in another thread, claimed that the only way for the democratically elected Bloc MP`s to participate in our democracy is to be part of the governing coalition.
Tell that to all the governments over the past 20 years who used the votes of Bloc Members to pass legislation.

Maybe you are the cracy in democracy.

LdKitchenersOwn

Actually, Duceppe has said on multiple occasions regarding both 2004 and 2008 that the Bloc is not interested in joining a coalition with federalist parties and would not do so. There`s much too high of a risk that a successful federal coalition involving the Bloc would convince Quebeckers that they don`t need to separate (he`s never actually said that last part, but that`s why he`d never join a federalist coalition).

Blue

I agree that Duceppe would not want to actually be at the government table as an active participant, for the very reason you propose. However, don`t you think he would enjoy the role of the Godfather who had to be consulted on all confidence Bills, especially the Budget and it`s implications on all Bloc ridings ?

So when he talks about 2004, he knows he will never get Harper to agree to including him in any arrangement. But it will backfire on him when people realize in the rest of Canada that the one sure way to avoid having Duceppe as the Godfather in a Liberal-NDP Coalition is to vote Conservative.

LdKitchenersOwn

Thank God for the Tories then. Never ever meeting with Gilles Duceppe to negotiate over legislation.

And CERTAINLY never asking Gilles Duceppe what he`d like to see in a Throne speech.

Nope. Not the Tories. They`d never rely on the Bloc for their political survival. ( http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/story/2006/05/02/op… http://www.thestar.com/news/article/193843–ducep… )

Blue

So you are asking the voters of the nation to believe that there is no difference between a minority government acting responsibly and consulting with all 3 opposition parties in the hope that one of the 3 will vote with the government on a specific motion,…… and a two party coalition who have considerably less seats combined then the leading party, who then need to convince a separtist party to support them on every vote.

That`s why Harper hopes Duceppe continues to talk coalition.
LdKitchenersOwn

I`m not asking voters to believe anything. I just think that most people who really think about it will realize that the notion that Government X surviving only with the support of the Bloc is “acting responsibly” but Government Y surviving only with the support of the Bloc is “giving in to blackmail” is bollocks. And perhaps also that they`ll realize that the only reason the Liberals and the NDP would have no one to turn to but the Bloc is Tory obstinacy, and an unwillingness to work with the other federal parties the way the other federal parties have so often worked with them.
Rob

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/national/arti…

The Canadian Alliance, Conservatives and the Bloc? Hmmmm

FVerhoeven

"Thus putting him offside with the countless Canadian academics, politicians and blog commenters who are quite ready to explain why it’s perfectly all right for a party dedicated to the destruction of Canada to also be governing it."

Do men cry sometimes, or are discussion about everything always theorectical?

Countries such as Canada cannot be reasoned about in a theoretical understanding only. A country is something one feels besides. And it's the besides which really matters in the end.

LdKitchenersOwn

Some people feel it.

Some people don`t think it`s all that important whether Canada has one national government, or two, or ten.

FVerhoeven

But you know, Lord Kitchener, when the Candian academics, politicians and blog commentators start, at the earliest and every opportunity, to take Duceppe's words over Harper's – a man who as worked very hard against all odds to be where he is now – then for me it ain't worth it to defend this country any longer, because there isn't a country left to be defended.

Many people on these blogs are not interested in defending this country. They merely stand at the ready to debase Harper, which they have done for years, and years, and years.

I guess the labels "hidden agenda" and "evil Harper" don't have to be explained by any one. They just are. It's the attack ads we need to be carefull about.

Enough is enough!
.

LdKitchenersOwn

Well, you`re assuming that Duceppe is less honest than Harper because he wants an independent Quebec. I don`t see how one necessarily follows the other. I also don`t think people are taking Duceppe at his word just because, I think that there were three people in those meetings, and if two say X and one says Y, then X is more likely to be true than Y.

I also think that defending national unity is nice rhetoric for the Tories, but they`re led by a man who is on record saying that whether the country has one national government or several is a `secondary` concern, and for me, it`s more than that. For me it will always be worth defending this country.

http://www.punditsguide.ca Pundits' Guide

Please cite just one example to back up this claim, Mr. Coyne.
sourstud

Is he saying that the Bloc could never sit as government, under any circumstances? Even in a situation where the Bloc was the Official Opposition again, and the Bloc was leading the coalition coup, rather than just a willing participant?
Rob

Of course the Bloc is evil now, as opposed to when Harper was in opposition… how quickly we all forget. Another Harper 'Do as I say, not as I do' moment http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/politics/arti…
JustOneVote

“Mr. Duceppe clarified that he, too, would never be part of a formal coalition with the other parties, saying it would be “against nature” for the separatist party to be government ministers.”
He also added that he wouldn't expect any of the current federal parties would have him either for similar reasons. This is why in fact he wasn't part of the Liberal NDP coalition of 2008. Enough misdirection, scaremongering and hand wringing about the "evil separatist coalition" already!
Jan

So that confirms that he wasn't part of the 2008 coalition.
http://doconnor.homeip.net/ doconnor

I don't think it is fair to say they are "dedicated to the destruction of Canada". They are want to create a new country. I don't think they have much ill will towards Canada, except what we cause with our attitude.

Treating Quebec separatists like pariahs will only make them want to leave Canada more. If you want to protect Canada engaging them in the national government is one of the best thing you can do.

My Canada Includes Quebec Separatists http://doconnor.homeip.net/blog/?p=316
noob_goldberg

Fair enough, I can appreciate that explanation. Heaven knows I've argued such pedantic points in the past that, in comparison, would make this one appear quite practical.
Ed McKay

The BQ was not part of the 2008 coalition proposal. They only agreed to support, not join, the Lib-NDP coalition.

It may seem like a minor detail, but it is a significant difference. The Libs and NDP would be together in the cabinet, but the BQ would not be part of it. So the BQ would not be governing the country.

Of course, Harper lied about this and intentionally muddied the water.
http://canadiansense.blogspot.com/ CanadianSense

They can leave anytime they want. Air France operates in Quebec. Only 38.1% voted for the Bloc in 2008.
Jack the Weasel

Here's the issue

1. Canadians will never except coalition via extortion. If the Bloc gets one red penny for support, all hell will break loose

2. We will never except a coalition with the Bloc if they get veto power

3. We will never except a coalition with the Bloc if they gain one strand of decision making power over the rest of us

Jack Layton is a two faced weasel, a traitor, a scum nag and a creep!!!
http://halooverride.blogspot.com/ Halo_Override

Oh, go back where you came from.
http://doconnor.homeip.net/ Darwin O'Connor

Quebecers are trying to protect their culture which is a distinct from France is English Canada's culture is distinct from England's.
http://halooverride.blogspot.com/ Halo_Override

But he knows the difference between "except" and "accept". (Freakin' academic elites.)
Andrew (not PorC)

Hey, Harper cut deals with the Bloc to get his budget passed in the past. I must have missed the wave of Canadian outrage. What the heck do you think the whole fiscal imbalance thing was?

The Bloc has had decision making power over us the dozens of times Harper, and Martin before him, relied on their support to pass legislation.
http://canadiansense.blogspot.com/ CanadianSense

If they don't want to remain in a united Canada they can leave. If you have a problem you can stuff it.

Canada is not divisible. If the Bloc don't think Quebec is divisible, why should Canadians tolerate such foolishness?

St. Pierre and Miquelon is not too far they can charter a boat to take them if France will accept them.
http://halooverride.blogspot.com/ Halo_Override

If we can arrange to rescind the Canadian citizenship of Albertan separatists and ship them to Texas you've got yourself a deal.
ShirtPlaid

Except…..you can't point to a single example anywhere in the world where this is or has been true in a functioning democracy.

I will help you. It's less legitimate than Sinn Fein joining a Northern Ireland government coalition government, while N.I is still in the U.K. If the Bloc was as powerful politically as Sinn Fein is in NI, then they would be able to create the same degree of mischief here.

At least in the case of Sinn Fein, they represent about 25% of the population. At least it is part of a peace process to end years of violence and political stalemate and that is why, the unionist parties have finally relented and worked with Sinn Fein in a coaltion government. They is no such imperative here. There is no violence and we haven't yet fallen into Belgium-like levels of dysfunction.
katie smith

If this is true, and I don't doubt that it is, considering your source, then isn't this an admission that the BQ shouldn't be electing Federal politicians at all? Or maybe they should be absent from the Chamber at all times unless and only when issues specific to Quebec are being discussed … cause isn't participating in a debate on issues that affect all citizens of Canada really participating in the "government" of Canada as a whole and on the same principle, a debate a separatist party should stay out of?

And if they are only ever going to be outside the government then doesn't that mean that all the BQ is is a big enough block of votes used to hold the balance of power and only for the interests of Quebec? Now I know what you mean Mr. Coyne when you talk about the BQ and ransom. "Vote for me" says Gilles Duceppe "and I'll make sure that Stephen or Michael (or Jack?) will give us what we want so that they can get what the rest of Canada needs." Well, I suppose I knew that already, but this type of talk just makes it that much more blatant.

As much as this makes me tired, I stil think that if anyone, anywhere, in the three federalist parties had any sort of real appeal and common sense, we would have less of a mess when it comes to Quebec (and elsewhere) and the BQ would be less powerful. As it is, I am almost jealous of Quebeckers. At least they have an alternative to the nasty-me/nasty-you show the LIb/Con are putting on for the rest of us …
LdKitchenersOwn

That last part is why so many federalists vote Bloc come election time, I suspect.
http://canadiansense.blogspot.com/ CanadianSense

How many referendums held in Alberta?

How many millions sent to advertising firms in Alberta to win against those Alberta Separatists?

If you are talking about a fringe in every region they are no danger to our country.

The Bloc are clear they want to break up Canada. The oath is a formality, they don't sing national anthem.

The Liberals sold out with renaming NHL arena a cultural centre. The Liberals sold out to immigration consultants and have blocked legislation on human smuggling.

The Liberals, NDP are in bed with the BLOC to stop Ontario, BC and Ontario with democratic reform. (30 seats)

On May 2, 2011 We will provide your team with a clear message.
http://halooverride.blogspot.com/ Halo_Override

So you're denying the Albertan separatist movement has any political legitimacy? That, at least, is something of a relief.
FVerhoeven

Mr.Coyne, today I watched Peter Van Dusen and he had a panel on in regards the coalition issue. Two of the panelists were professors (forget their names) and the other was John Gormey from Saskatoon (radio).

All three of them did not seem to consider the BQ party to be any different or to be any form of obstacle in relation to coalition forming, either informal or formal. However, I do believe the BQ is the white elephant in the room, because, there are two important things to bring into this discussion regarding Canada and coalitions:
http://canadiansense.blogspot.com/ CanadianSense

Where did you study Canadian politics and our history?

How many times have a provincial government held a referendum to break up Canada in the last 50 years? Which province?

Feel free to refer to Reform as a Separatist party if those Liberal talking points make you feel better.
http://canadiansense.blogspot.com/ CanadianSense

If any provincial culture wants to protect their identity as unique they should pay for it by raising taxes locally.