Colby Cosh

Colby Cosh

Maclean’s man in Edmonton writes about everything. Follow Colby on Twitter: @colbycosh

The Ignatieffalump in the room

by Colby Cosh on Thursday, March 31, 2011 1:57pm - 304 Comments

Did you know a vote for the Liberal Party of Canada is also a vote for the leader of that party? It’s true! I learned it from this helpful 30-second informational video.

I don’t mind that this commercial looks like a sketch-comedy parody of negative ads, but it’s a little annoying that it looks specifically like a parody from the 1990s. It’s embarrassing for our country, surely, that even the most impressive of its election war rooms is still full of creatives telling each other, “Hey, this game isn’t difficult. Distorted black-and-white photo of the opponent, ominous brown note on the synthesizer—bam, you’ve got your ad.” Negative ads are always criticized for their negativity, as if running for office didn’t mean, inherently, that you think you belong there and the other individuals on the ballot don’t. Yes, I’m negative toward negativity toward negative ads! But I dislike unimaginative, tacky, lazy content in any medium, from the phone book to the opera.

What really struck me about this commercial, so sterile and clumsy it could literally have been produced by a computer algorithm, is the part where it calls Michael Ignatieff an OPPORTUNIST “who only came back to be prime minister”. This echoes the Tories’ earlier “He Didn’t Come Back For You” spot—an ad similar in form, but subtler and more intelligent. There is no good answer to the point that ad makes, and on the appeal-to-the-subconscious level, its blending of a slightly East European-sounding piano melody with a deep red Stars & Stripes is clearly the work of an inspired maniac.

Either way, these charming little vignettes do what they were made to do: they force us to analyze our reactions to Ignatieff’s biography. And when I did that I found myself thinking how odd the commercials really are. On being confronted with the accusation that Ignatieff’s an opportunist, inveigled back to Canada by a cabal of desperate Liberals, I think “But is that incompatible with him being a good Prime Minister?” The answer is “Obviously not.” Why, after all, couldn’t the same accusation be hurled at Stephen Harper? He left electoral politics at one point, and, like Ignatieff, he was recruited by a desperate opposition party because he was thought to possess intellectual virtues desirable to the cause. Really, now: Mr. Unite The Right is going to brand somebody else an opportunist?

The Conservative attacks actually leap beyond the real problem with Ignatieff’s history: it’s not the manner of his coming back, it’s the quarter-century of Canadian history he sat out. Liberals don’t like it mentioned that Ignatieff had virtually no experience of post-Charter Canada until he was dragged back over the border; when it is mentioned, their reaction is a childlike feigned shock. It’s as if it has never occurred to them that Ignatieff’s long wanderings might be regarded as a problem. And if this is so, surely we non-Liberals must take part of the blame.

You tell me: aren’t most Liberal responses to the Ignatieff truancy problem dumber than a bucket of rotten beans? “Do you think he loves Canada any less just because he spent his whole adult life elsewhere?” Yeah, I do think that: ever heard of “revealed preference”? “Are you questioning his patriotism?” If saying that his “patriotism” has self-evidently taken second place to his career means “questioning” it, then you’d be a fool not to. “What’s wrong with going abroad, gaining experience of the world, succeeding on wider stages, broadening one’s horizon?” Nothing’s wrong with any of that, and please stop acting like we’re talking about a post-doc at Johns Hopkins or a vacation time-share in Oahu. The man left the country before Joe Clark was Prime Minister and came back after Chrétien. He took a seat pretty goddamn far into this movie.

And yes, it’s a problem. I am tempted to wonder if the people who deny this are actually those who travel even less often than I do: when I go to London for a week, as I did at the end of February, it takes me an agonizingly long time to re-enter the flow of Canadian news. That’s the whole reason travel is thought to be good for the character, to be broadening. This will sound suspiciously like a tautology, but being elsewhere is being elsewhere.

Even in the era of the internet, you just don’t wake up in Knightsbridge every day, turn on your Canadian radio, grab your Canadian paper, listen to Canadians talking about Canada on the subway, and have those little “So did you see where…” conversations about Canadian news with your Canadian colleagues and cronies. You don’t have a Canadian environment flooding your sensorium when you walk out the front door; you aren’t aware of the million little obstacles and infelicities and moods that characterize a place, the tiny political eddies that blow citizens about. Inevitably, if you live someplace, you must devote at least some of your attention to the debates and events that affect your gas bill, your commute, and your paycheque.

And, yeah, maybe this could be dismissed as idle nonsense if the quarter-century in question had been a quiet one when it came to constitutional matters—if the prodigal son had missed out mostly on clean, abstract policy arguments, as opposed to claws-and-fangs pit-brawling over the nature of the federation. To me, it’s bizarre to imagine that one could understand Canada well enough to govern it after experiencing 1978-2004 as a series of newspaper op-eds. It’s even more bizarre that the Conservatives are essentially accepting this premise by turning the motives behind Ignatieff’s return into the central issue into a personal attack. Sorry, but I’d have significant trouble voting for the Mid-Atlantic Man even if he did come back for me.

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  • Richard_S_Argent

    With all due respect (and I mean that), unless you've been in a similar situation you should keep your suspicions to yourself.

    • hosertohoosier

      I've had relatives deteriorate slowly (my grandmother from Alzheimer's), and I'm pretty sure I would never use them in an ad, and certainly not a political ad (maybe if it was aimed at raising money for Alzheimer's sufferers). I would also not portray myself as the caregiver of said person, when in fact it was my brother who did the caregiving. Alzheimer's robs people of their dignity – I'm not sure that parading them around on television reverses that.

      • Richard_S_Argent

        "My mother died of Alzheimer's Disease. Caring for her was the toughest thing that ever hit our family".

        Sorry, he's not portraying himself as you say he is. As you should know, caregiving for a person dying of dementia takes a toll on everyone, not just the primary caregiver. As for your unfounded assertion that his family will likely be upset – could it not be equally as likely that they're happy that he's using his platform as a political leader to help people in the very same situation? I know I would be perfectly content with my father's image being used for such a thing (even if I wouldn't have when he was ill…cause opinions and feelings change with the passing of time)

        Stop trying to score cheap partisan points, you're better than that.

        • hosertohoosier

          They were upset about his writing a book: http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/politics/arti…

          • hosertohoosier

            (see page 12)

          • Leo

            Without even thinking about it, that ad with MI's mother made me feel empathy. Now I feel jerked around! As someone who took 8 months leave of absence to look after my mother at the end, this is morally reprehensible.

            Michael Ignatief = disingenuous

            - giving a false appearance of simple frankness
            - not straightforward or candid; insincere or calculating

          • Richard_S_Argent

            In 1994. Feelings change. Your assertion has no more validity than mine.

            (am I talking to h2h or cats here? ;)

  • brooster2

    "In the history of the world, nobody has ever become his country's democratically elected Head of Government after choosing to live abroad as long as Ignatieff did."

    How about Vaira Vike-Freiberga, whose family left Latvia to live in Canada in 1954. She lived here until 1998. After an outstanding career in academia (mostly at the University of Montreal), she returned to her native land in 1998 and was elected president of Latvia in 1999. She served until 2007.

    • Crit_Reasoning

      I already answered this above. This counterexample fails for two reasons:

      1. She was forcibly exiled by a Stalinist regime.

      2. She wasn't head of government.

      • brooster2

        1) That doesn't diminish her example as someone who chose to return to her native land to pursue a career in public service as did Ignatieff, whose prolonged absence seems to rankle Cosh so much. And forced exile doesn't explain the length of her absence. There was no reason she couldn't have returned many years earlier.

        2) She was, however, elected as head of state. To quibble about head of government vs. head of state is hair-splitting, IMO, since both are democratically elected positions in Latvia.

        • Crit_Reasoning

          1) I was looking for counterexamples that excluded forced exile, for obvious reasons. Changing the goalposts doesn't make your example any more valid.

          Also, you claim: "forced exile doesn't explain the length of her absence. There was no reason she couldn't have returned many years earlier. "

          Latvia regained its independence in 1991. Vike-Freiberga returned in 1998.

          2) To quibble about head of government vs. head of state is hair-splitting, IMO, since both are democratically elected positions in Latvia.

          The head of government is the important one because that's where the executive power lies. In many countries, like Latvia, the president has largely symbolic power, rather than actual executive power. In countries where the president has executive power, like the United States, the president is both head of government and head of state.

          That's why I was careful to specify head of government rather than head of state. Many countries, like Canada, have a head of state who has never been a resident.

          • brooster2

            OK, since its your quiz, I guess you get to determine the selection criteria. However, I maintain that, in all its salient features, Vike-Freiberga's career (in choosing to return to her native land to pursue a career in public life after many years' absence) is a valid comparator to Ignatieff's.

            I wonder how many of the good citizens of Latvia got into a parochial snit about her "away-ness".

          • Crit_Reasoning

            I maintain that, in all its salient features, Vike-Freiberga's career (in choosing to return to her native land to pursue a career in public life after many years' absence) is a valid comparator to Ignatieff's.

            Vike-Freiberga and her family fled a tyrannical Soviet dictatorship that would have imprisoned them or murdered them if they had stayed behind. Ignatieff fled nothing.

            Vike-Freiberga returned to her country once freedom and democracy had been restored. When Ignatieff returned to Canada to try become PM after spending three and a half decades outside the country in pursuit of his career as a lecturer/writer/academic, Canada had already been a free and democratic country for 138 years.

          • brooster2

            None of which makes her demonstrably more suited for public life in her native land than Ignatieff in his, IMO. We're talking about suitability for office after prolonged absence and, ultimately, circumstances surrounding original exit (i.e., chosen or forced) shouldn't make one's prolonged absence OK, while the other's is not.

            They are both distinguished academics, absent from their respective native lands for decades before returning home to public office. The finer distinctions between their respective biographies, in my view, are circumstantial and irrelevant, in terms of their ability to serve. Isn't that what matters here?

            But, as I said, it's your quiz so you get to be the judge.

          • TimesArrow

            So it's choice that's really bugging CR. Had Ignatieff not spent the last 5 years [ he did get a gimme riding, but that's hardly an anomaly] slugging it out in a weakened liberal party, and under almost constant personal attack [ odd that doesn't bother CR as much] i would say MI's critics might have had a point? As it is, they have nothing.

  • TimesArrow

    You are misinformed. [ as you so often are] AW used to interact – he was good too – but probably tired of the abuse. Wells did it alot. It was great. But a few jerks and whiners drove him away. Coyne and Potter regularly participated too. My feeling is macleans now has an informal policy of no or low fraternization – that or their too busy. It's a great shame. Colby is the sole exception. i like him and frequently disagree with him. I sincerely hope he doesn't let some of this get to him and pull back.

    • alfanerd

      so what you're saying is that im correct, but still misinformed. interesting. why arent you using your intensedebate account TimesArrow?

      Or is there another commenter with a fascination for entropy?

      • TimesArrow

        Busted. At work…bad, bad boy. No matter, i'm laid off today.Time to go work for myself again.

        No particular fascination with entropy. I can't find a wonderful link that argues that chemisty may play a vital factor in delaying this inevitability. The author went on to argue this a kind of God given wake up and smell the roses thing, as your life [ and the universe] whizzes to its inevitable conclusion…it prevents everything ending all at once…i find this an immensely consoling thought.

  • David

    This discussion certainly underscores the irrelevance of this particular attack ad, I think in fact it may be the most irrelevant attack ad in the "history of the world".
    There are many good examples given here of leaders who have bought their experience abroad to political office at home and Mr. Ignatieff may be another, one thing is certain, he is far more Canadian in his style of politics than Mr. Harper.
    Critical reasoning would leads me to believe that Mr. Harper thinks he has an advantage over Mr. Ignatieff on the "I am Canadian" front. I think he is mistaken and this ad and others like it aren't having the expected effect, they are simply underlining Mr. Harper's contempt for Canadian ways.

  • Kathryn_C

    Lester Pearson was away for close the same length of time.

    From 1927 to 1948 he was a career diplomat and rarely in the country. And before that of course he was away alot during WW1.

    • Crit_Reasoning

      Not even close to the same length of time. Also, the whole time Mike Pearson was gone, he was intimately connected to his country because he was serving Canada, representing Canada, and making Canadian history on the world stage. The contrast between Pearson and career expats, like Ignatieff, is pretty stark.

  • hosertohoosier

    In a way, I wonder whether his living abroad from Canada is more or less damaging than living abroad from his own kids (who were not yet grown up). Theo was born in 1984, Sophie in 1987. They were respectively 16 and 13 when he moved to Harvard in 2000 (leaving them back in the UK with their mother).

    • TimesArrow

      Cheap…if Harper were an alcoholic would it be a relevant topic of converation here. He may well be a jerk. It doesn't necessarily disqualify him from running the country.

      • Mr Irrelevant

        Nothing "disqualifies" him. The man certainly put his career well ahead of his children. People are allowed to think less of him, and weigh that into their decision. An argument could also be made in his favour, that while we may prefer that men be devoted to their families, for jobs of a certain magnitude we want someone who can devote 100% of his focus without any outside distractions.

  • burlivespipe

    Here's to it being a long campaign for the two of you…

  • TimesArrow

    “Do you think he loves Canada any less just because he spent his whole adult life elsewhere?” Yeah, I do think that: ever heard of “revealed preference”? “Are you questioning his patriotism?” If saying that his “patriotism” has self-evidently taken second place to his career means “questioning” it, then you’d be a fool not to. '

    That's a crock CC and you should know it. You may a good case for his missing a quarter centuary of our political scene as being unable to understand Canada well enough to govern it. Although you make a lot of assumptions about just how much effort he made to keep up – the man was in your profession, a writer no less. Most of us, as as you allude, experinced those years via newspaper op eds – i certainly wasn't invited to the signing of the charter – were you? Perhaps he phoned Trudeau occasionally to find out how it was going. If he did, that would likely have given him a leg up on most of us, including you.

    • TimesArrow

      What any of this has to do with questioning his patriotism is baffling – did he become a UK or American citizen? [ actually i don't know] I've lived abroad for short periods and known expats who had no intention of returning to their native land – they became more patriotic if anything.
      You're living in the past CC so's Harper and it's starting to show. The guy's come back, paid his dues, suffered for his so called sin of absence. No one but con partisans cares anymore.

  • TimesArrow

    " It’s even more bizarre that the Conservatives are essentially accepting this premise by turning the motives behind Ignatieff’s return into the central issue into a personal attack. Sorry, but I’d have significant trouble voting for the Mid-Atlantic Man even if he did come back for me."

    That's a prettty astute observation CC. The CPC chose not to highlight the fact that his absence has disqualified him on the grounds that his undestanding of the country may be inadequate, but rather that it's all about him. In other words impugn the motive. Make it personal. Make it a lack of character, not experience or qualifications It's all personal, all the time.. Really, it says a lot more about them , then it does about him .All you need to know about them really.

  • canucklehead

    I suppose this would be the time to bring up the first thing Mark Steyn remembered about Ignateiff when he became leader or at least a serious contender. Steyn was at some kind of ex-pat party in the UK and Ignateiff didn’t want to talk about Canada because it was parochial.

    • TimesArrow

      mmm, i wouldn't shoot a rabid dog purely on the recollection and say so of MS.

      • canucklehead

        He's been kind of annoying me for a few years and I don't read his columns anymore but I do trust him on that one :p

        • TimesArrow

          Any particular reason why…bear in mind i'm no particular fan of MI either…i just hate to see deliberate distorting of the truth, and stupid bullying.

          Steyn is kinda economical with the truth at times…most of the time, in fact.

          • canucklehead

            It was so early that you really couldn't have a serious partisan bias against him by that point, I don't even know if it was clear he would be leader. As well, Mark seemed to find it sort of offhandedly amusing so again, no negative investment. (as if Steyn would care much about a Canadian politician anyhow) I don't know of any particular examples of Steyn's poor accuracy myself. Bullying? He's too funny and flip to be any kind of bully, really it's something I still love about him.

  • s_c_f

    292 comments! You're smoking on this one Cosh!

  • Guest

    What really burns my britches about this is how sneeringly conservatives portray being a writer, visiting professor at 3 ivy league universities, diplomat, and Canadian at the same time as somehow suspect. Or disqualifies him in some strange way.

    • TimesArrow

      CC does a good job in this piece of making a similar point. Those who are mad at CC for this piece might want to remember he trashes the ad, and the idiocy of the CPC of not simply sticking to the point: Being away 30 odd years leaves you with some explaining to do.
      The whole thing is pathetic really. In 2011 we are still impugning motive, just because it's so easy to do so.

  • FVerhoeven

    Waw, Colby, great writing. I like your style.

    Anyways, I have always thought of Ignatieff's presence out of country as being that: being out of country. That indeed is the problem with his sudden rise to power within the Liberal party.

    In a sense, Ignatieff's time and my time overlap in reverse: I came to Canada almost the same time as he left, and I remember since that Canada has discussed national unity in one way or another, and you had to be here to really get a sense of what was and is still going on. It's a flow of things. Thing flowing into each other.

    The first few years after having emigrated, when going back to the old country, was like fitting in almost immediately. Yet, as time wore on, so much could definitely no longer be said. I've had to grow into Canada and grow out of my mother country. It is sooo true.

    • FVerhoeven

      Oh, and I have never liked them black and white commercials. Indeed, much too negative. A bit of colour would have gone a long way. Plus a more engaging pictured message besides.

  • Tony

    I think we need to stop debating such trivial issues as to whether a candidate visited the country he wishes to lead for 20-30 years, and focus on important topics such as: is the individual too mean? Why is he such a meanie

    • Tony

      Colbert PAC ad has a short Chewbacca clip near the end – that's the closest thing to creativity you will ever see in the political advertisement genre (hahahaha) .

    • TimesArrow

      Yes, but did SH choose to become a meanie?…you'd best ask CR about that.

      • Tony

        No, I am asking you – from your above comments, I am interested in your concern about meanies, as opposed to someone who did not live in his own country for at least a generation, and only returned when he saw a chance to lead this country after being absent for 30 odd years.

        • TimesArrow

          I believe that's a logical fallacy…drawing your conclusion from your premise with nothing other then unsupported supposition as your premise.

  • FVerhoeven

    If Obama had lived in Austrialia and Britain for 15 years prior to running within presidential elections, would the citizens of the United States still have voted him in as President?

    Or,

    Would he have won the democratic nomination?

  • vic

    How do we compare apples to oranges? The Iggy man is by far more educated, capable and travelled then whats his name again oh yes Harper. I would rather hear facts from a person who has been there and done that then a guy that says what I heard or read was! Really if I leave the country as I do for months even left for years and return I still consider myself as Canadian as my Friends. What kind of tom foolery is this?????

  • Dirt

    He left this country for three decades, he paid absolutely zero into our social programs yet he'll get a fat pension and healthcare benifits most of us would literally die for after working less than eight years. So excuse me if I think someone who's given absolutely nothing back to this nation wants to waltz in and take control of said nation. He also has zero experience in management and leadership and he's been an abysmal Leader of the Official Opposition and a utter failure as Leader of the Liberal Party. His only perk is he use to be a journalist in the US thus that explains why Liberal Media is so far up his behind I can see CTv's logo when he bends over.

  • Reg

    Should anyone who lived outside of Canada for 30 odd consecutive years, even be "eligible" to run for MP, let alone Prime Minister. As I understand it, Ignatieff returned some time in 2005, and ran in the 2006 election. This, after over 30 years not even being a resident of Canada. An MP makes $160,000 a year plus perqs and benefits. To me, it's outrageous that the rules – if we have any, even allowed Ignatieff to run for federal politics. We need a regulation that states one must have been a resident of Canada for at least 4 of the last 5 years or something, to be even eligible to run for office. More, in the case of the Prime Minister – i.e. 7 out of 10 last years.

  • biaced

    Why is there not a drop down menu on the Macleans Blogs link? There used to be one and I could check for a new entry for Colby or Paul. Now I have to scroll through a bunch of AW posts and if I have to do that anymore I'll stop checking.

    biaced

  • alfanerd

    It's certainly not insignificant that Iggy spent his entire adult life outside of Canada. I doubt he understands the subtleties of our recent political history as other politicians who have been in Canada during this time.

    But I would forgive that in a heartbeat if I felt he would be the right PM for this country.

    My main beef with the guy is that he is well known to have held unpopular but correct positions on controversial issues such as the Iraq war and torture. As a human rights expert at Harvard, he was particularly well positioned to think deeply about such things, and he courageously came out against the zeitgeist. That is a difficult thing, even for an academic, maybe particularly so for an academic.

    But as soon as he runs for office, he changes his mind on all of those and veers the Liberal party hard to the left. What gives? Is he really such a craven opportunist? What does he really believe? And to me that's the worst possible flaw a politician can have: adopting a position because it's the popular one.

  • Out There

    The Conservative attacks actually leap beyond the real problem with Ignatieff’s history: it’s not the manner of his coming back, it’s the quarter-century of Canadian history he sat out.

    Serious question: how does that make Ignatieff unfit to be prime minister? I'm not being snarky here. How, specifically, does that disqualify him from office, given that he is a Canadian citizen and was born here?

  • Colby Cosh

    Would you like me to write a thousand-word column about it and get back to you?

  • Crit_Reasoning

    It doesn't disqualify Ignatieff from office in any way. Cosh didn't say that it did. Cosh is just saying that Ignatieff's ultra-long absence from the country he seeks to govern causes Cosh to have "significant trouble" voting for Ignatieff.

  • Mike T.

    The practical problem is that it seems to have made his foreign policy views very American/Thatcherite. Pity the CPC can't use that a criticism, though!

  • Andrew (not PorC)

    So, every PM in recent (and not so recent) memory has had this worst possible flaw?

    If you want to lead the country, it involves at least a modicum of giving the people what they want. I seriously doubt Stephen Harper circa 1995 or 1997 would have favoured a GST cut as a use of ~$12 billion in revenues. He made the calculation that it was necessary to promise this, despite his training as an economist. I have yet to meet a single economist who favours a GST cut over the alternatives, after all.

  • lenny

    "…unpopular but correct positions on controversial issues such as the Iraq war and torture."

    You're joking, right?
    http://pewresearch.org/pubs/770/iraq-war-five-yea… http://hotair.com/archives/2009/12/04/pew-poll-pu…

    The "unpopular but correct" position 7 years ago was against both the war and torture.

  • Just Joe

    Implicit social cognition at work?

    [ http://www.scientificamerican.com/article.cfm?id=... ]

  • Out There

    Heh. Fair enough :-) Next question: how long can a person be allowed to live out of the country before he or she is disqualified? I assume that a three-week vacation is okay, and presumably a year out of the country for work-study is okay too, provided that the potential candidate spends plenty of time deprogramming themselves by drinking plenty of Timmies and watching Hockey Night In Canada. But, I gather, at some point, one's essential Canadianness disappears, never to return, thus rendering the hapless expatriate unfit for Canadian office. When is that? (Question: has Neil Young reached that point? Discuss.)

    One thing that occurred to me: Canada is not a monolithic entity, despite what some commentators would have you believe. If you live in Toronto, your perspective is not the same as if you live in Vancouver; ditto if you live in Montreal, Calgary, Yellowknife, Halifax, etc., etc. Any person running for public office would have a learning curve ahead of him or her in order to understand the experiences of all Canadians, not just those in their own part of the country.

    By the way, I also believe that the Tories are only condemning Ignatieff for having lived out of the country because their focus groups told them that this was a potential wedge issue. I don't think Harper really gives an <unprintable> about this.

  • alfanerd

    Yes I realized after posting that my formulation of this flaw was perhaps a bit too broad.

    Anyhow, there is a distinction between making a policy decision because that's what the voters want, which in some cases may be the right thing to do, and changing your mind on a hot button issue just to woo members of your party.

    Also, there is a distinction between taking a position on what is a preferred policy option and a less preferred policy option and a complete reversal. Im sure a part of Harper agrees with you re: the GST cut. But it's not like a GST cut is diametrically opposed to an income tax cut.

  • lenny
  • alfanerd

    no, not joking at all.

    i would not hesitate to torture a scumbag if it could save many innocent lives. of course I hope im never in that position, but i think it's plain stupid to not consider torture if it could save many innocent lives.

    as for Iraq, I believe Saddam's ouster will benefit Iraqis for generations to come. I have no qualms whatsoever to state my support for this war despite the pathetic, lame, and facile cries of 'peace' by the hippy hordes.

    if you want to see what messing up the mideast looks like, just look at where Libya will 5 years from now compared to where Iraq will be 5 years from now. Libya will still be controlled by Ghaddafi (unless Obama grows a pair, and takes him out), the rebel "army" will have been wiped out (they are currently being wiped out, despite this silly "no fly zone"), and Ghadaffi will be taking his revenge in various and creative ways against the countries currently involved there.

  • burlivespipe

    He offered the gst policy not because people were clamouring for it, but because he knew it would be an easy sell. No need to tell them what it would cost. Same with Cosh's theory that people who venture off Canadian soil to learn, work and thrive are not worthy of leadership at home.
    Nevermind you don't like Ignatieff or that he's been abroad for a lot of time. Compare the teams behind the men. Tell me which team has better, more accomplished 'made-in-Canada skills' for the job of running a government — not just as a sideline of being the financial source for selling a product. Oh, you may have to deduct points for Garneau's wild foray into space…

  • Andrew (not PorC)

    The fact that he's a conservative probably gives him more trouble.

  • alfanerd

    my beef with Iggy is discussed above.

    besides, Liberals are the party of identity politics, of no principles except seeking power, of thieves, … they represent everything i despise.

    i have considered the team behind the men. and the team behind Iggy makes me want to vomit.

  • Patchouli

    "i would not hesitate to torture a scumbag if it could save many innocent lives"

    Interesting words from a person who only yesterday was pummelling another commentator about nefarious deeds done for "the greater good."

  • lenny

    Blah, blah, blah, three cheers for torture and the paradise that war is transforming Iraq into, etc.
    You're avoiding my real point. As I posted above, your claim that support for the Iraq war and torture were unpopular positions w you're dodginghen Ignatieff took them is unadultered BS.
    And all but the most fanatical and delusional nuts now recognize that war for being a fraudulently-waged disaster.
    The evolution of Ingatieff's position has mirrored the public's.

  • jonatwitan

    Yeah well, "the greater good" is not usually used to refer to the saving of innocent lives. It is usually a reference to something much more sinister. Which is why I just found it so hilarious that that poster yesterday used that exact phrase to refer to his passion for defeating Harper.

    Thankfully, there are much more eloquent articulations of utilitarianism than "the greater good".

  • alfanerd

    Wow you follow my comments that closely do you? God, another stalker.

    all i said yesterday was that the 'greater good' is the excuse used for every major atrocity. of course the genius lefties took it for meaning that if anything was done for the greater good, it meant that it was a major atrocity. unfortunately this forum doesnt allow me to draw a ven diagram explaining this.

    so, is there no situation at all where you would consider torture to be appropriate?

  • Crit_Reasoning

    Mandela was a political prisoner within his own country. He wasn't "sitting out" South Africa's history–quite the contrary. He was making South African history throughout his imprisonment.

    Mandela was at the very centre of the South African experience during those 27 years in prison, which is a far cry from the the way one experiences one's country as an expat.

  • ZestyMordant

    Of course I agree that he was making South African history. But he was making history precisely because his imprisonment removed him from South African politics and daily life. I think an argument could be made that living on a prison island with very restrictive communications alienates one from the mainstream of one's society much more than living abroad.

    Look at Mr. Cosh's last two paragraphs. Apparently Ignatieff makes Mr. Cosh uncomfortable because for 25 years he couldn't "turn on a Canadian radio, grab a Canadian paper, listen to Canadians talking about Canada on the subway, and have those little 'So did you see where…' conversations about Canadian news with his Canadian colleagues and cronies." Mandela didn't have those luxuries either.

  • Crit_Reasoning

    First, I'm pretty sure Mandela had many discussions about South Africa with his fellow inmates, etc. during those 18 years on Robben island. While in jail, his reputation grew and he became widely known as the most significant black leader in South Africa. There's a huge difference between being the most significant political prisoner/leader in one's own country and being an expat who removes oneself from direct experience of one's country for three decades.

    Few would argue that Mandela didn't understand South Africa upon his release from prison, yet it's perfectly legitimate to argue that when Ignatieff came back, he didn't understand Canada in the same way that he would have if he hadn't lived abroad for all those decades.

  • ZestyMordant

    "I'm pretty sure Mandela has many discussions about South Africa with his fellow inmates"

    I'm sure he did. I'm sure Ignatieff also spoke with friends and family living in Canada. Ignatieff also had many other avenues to keep current on mainstream Canadian culture that Mandela could not access.

    "There's a huge difference between being the most significant political prisoner/leader in one's own country and being an expat who voluntary removes oneself from this sort of daily experience."

    Yes there is a huge difference. But not in terms of the things that apparently make Mr. Cosh uncomfortable about Michael Ignatieff.

  • Crit_Reasoning

    Yes there is a huge difference. But not in terms of the things that apparently make Mr. Cosh uncomfortable about Michael Ignatieff.

    You'll have to ask Cosh for his opinion about that. I can't speak for Cosh.

  • alfanerd

    no, not really. i was and still am in favour of that war and I remember distinctly that the war was very unpopular. there were hordes of dirty hippies taking to the streets and every two-bit faux-sophisticate were trying to one-up each other expressing their disdain for Bush in ever more disgusting terms.

    now, beyond calling me a fanatical and delusional nut, what argument can you muster in favour of Saddam Hussein? Im curious to know if you have any original thoughts or if you can just repeat a mish-mash of every idiotic cliche that was floating around at the time.

    ignatieff's position did not evolve. he did a full 180 exactly when required for his political ambitions.

  • jonatwitan

    I don't think there is much of an argument to be made for Saddam Hussein, but then I don't think there is much of an argument to be made for numerous dictators and what not in that region.

    Jon Stewart makes the point quite well: http://watch.thecomedynetwork.ca/the-daily-show-w…

    Skip ahead to 8:10 for the pertinent bit, but the entire clip is worth watching as well.

  • lenny

    "I remember distinctly that the war was very unpopular."

    You remember wrong, as any polling from the period including those I posted above, make clear.

    "what argument can you muster in favour of Saddam Hussein? "

    Fail

  • alfanerd

    well, if his point is that the US is being hypocritical in not freeing the entire world at the same time of dictators, i would say that's ridiculous, but at least he doesnt seem opposed to the idea of removing dictators in the first place.

    The US pulls about 100x its weight in terms of fighting against tyranny. More than all of the other "allied" nations combined anyways.

  • burlivespipe

    Well, then we're just into preference then. Logic and rational thought need not apply. But you are free to vomit whenever you wish…

  • TimesArrow

    I didn't think it would be easy either, but i give that one to Zesty. You do make an awful lot of assumptions[ as does CC] about what MI did or did not do to keep up and current with the Canadian scene. It was a not inconsiderable absence, [and not ideal ] but not an insurmountble one.

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