Beyond The Commons

Beyond The Commons

Aaron Wherry covers all the goings-on in and around Parliament Hill. Follow Aaron on Twitter: @aaronwherry

The Commons: Take your pick

by Aaron Wherry on Tuesday, April 12, 2011 10:35pm - 242 Comments

First and foremost, apologies are probably due to Robert from Newmarket, Veselka from Mississauga, Sam from Mount Pearl, Jade from Montreal, and Patti from New Glasgow—the Average Canadians tasked with leading this debate. Each asked good, worthy questions. All were more or less ignored after about 30 seconds of the ensuing discussion. Only Len from Gibsons, who asked about justice policy, seemed to receive something like a proper and full statement of positions—an odd twist given how insipid the discussion of crime is often made to be.

So perhaps Len is to be declared the winner of this first debate of the 41st general election.

Alas, you cannot vote for Len. You must pick—in at least an existential sense—one of these men. So what might you have learned from these two hours? More specifically, what might you have seen of these men?

Mr. Duceppe was the mumbling, sarcastic troublemaker in the corner. He delighted in reminding Mr. Harper of their discussions in 2004 about cooperating to replace Paul Martin’s government. He gripped both sides of the lectern, begged incredulity at every opportunity and swaggered with a certain take-it-or-leave-it air.

Mr. Layton was smiling and self-righteous, eager to scold Mr. Ignatieff and Mr. Harper, well-stocked with a choice of one-liners to ensure he was not left out of the late night newscasts. Asking Mr. Harper what had become of him—”You’ve become what you used to oppose. What happened to you?”—he made a convincing show of seeming truly saddened.

Mr. Ignatieff began like a man who had been waiting a long while for this moment. After months of attack ads, after months of seething at Mr. Harper from the left side of the House, Mr. Ignatieff had his first opportunity on the national stage in prime time to say what he thought needed to be said and refute what he felt needed refutation. And with so much to say, he could barely figure out at first where to start. So at the outset he hesitated and stumbled and struggled to get his words out. He settled slightly as he went, but he was still the most eager for a fight, moving around in his spot, gesturing with his fists, staring down Mr. Harper with that impressive brow. He dared at one point to put his right hand on his hip. Nationwide, image consultants screamed in unison at their television screens.

Mr. Harper sought apparently to look past his counterparts. When answering questions, he spoke directly to the camera in front of him, directly to the people he hopes will be more forgiving. He adopted a pleading tone, begging for reasonableness. He only passingly made reference to the dreaded coalition he otherwise laments at every opportunity. He never once voiced his party’s frequent questioning of Mr. Ignatieff’s patriotism.

Perhaps what distinguished him most was his gall. It is perhaps what most distinguishes his entire time in power—a willingness to stand in his place and dare his opponents to call him on it.

He lamented that different versions of the Auditor General’s report were circulating around Ottawa, never minding that his own side is the source for one of those drafts. He reported that the Canadian Labour Congress supported his government’s most recent budget, never minding that the CLC has deemed such claims “misleading.” He managed to lament for partisan bickering without descending into giggles. He dabbled in subjective constitutional theory, claiming that only the party that wins the most seats gets to govern, despite his not seeming to have believed this until he became prime minister. (When Mr. Ignatieff dared not agree with him entirely, Mr. Harper’s backroom operatives screamed that here was proof of a coalition.)

If Mr. Harper slipped once it was in reply to a list of democratic abuses alleged by Mr. Ignatieff. “I don’t accept the truth of these attacks,” Mr. Harper pleaded.

Indeed.

The contempt of which his government was found guilty three weeks ago was referred to here as “so-called”— a simple matter of Mr. Harper having fewer votes in the House of Commons than the opposition parties. All the more reason, apparently, to give him a majority.

Parliament, Mr. Harper said at one point, was not a court of law. In fact, and in fairness to Mr. Harper, it is not. It is actually more powerful than that. The only power higher is the direct vote of the people. Indeed, Mr. Harper sought here to suggest that all of it was now placed before the population for judgment.

“We are asking Canadians to make a decision,” he said.

This was the most indisputable point made all evening. So over to you Robert, Veselka, Sam, Jade, Patti and Len.

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  • http://secondthots.blogspot.com Dennis_F

    Really. You show me a clip of where, IN UNISON, they all shamelessly ask Harper to release a report they know he has no power to release. This I'd like to see. lol

    In fact, what happened was that Iggy interrupted Harper and told him to release the report. The other leaders may have then joined him. It was hard to tell given all the bickering. Nevertheless, whatever they were saying, it was hardly in unison.

  • SocialLiberal

    Yay internet!

  • Andrew (not PorC)

    For someone who has a life, you spend a lot of time commenting on a blog.

    • http://secondthots.blogspot.com Dennis_F

      I do? lol. Or is it that you just can't stand the fact that someone who disagrees with you sometimes comments on here. lol

      • Cats

        This retort is just stupid.

  • http://rodcroskery.wordpress.com rodcros

    What was Harper on?

    Watching Stephen Harper in the debate last night I kept thinking of a conversation with a young physician some years ago about how nervous medical students sometimes used beta blockers to get through their oral exams. Beta blockers are risky, but reduce visible signs of stress. I wonder if Mr. Harper had similar chemical help last night? The lifeless eyes, monotone, tunnel vision and general lack of affect speak to a heavy load of chemicals. What amazes me is how most journalists described this as a fine performance in a debate.

    I’ll tell you, if a kid turned up in my classroom in the state Harper was in last night, a lot of alarm bells would go off.

    • Holly Stick

      It's not the first time people have suggested Harper was doped up on some kind of medication during a debate. I don't know enough about it to judge, but I get creeped out by that smirking liar anyway.

      • Kevin S

        But seeing Iggy quote one of the greatest mass murderer's Mao Zedong's view on Democracy, or Jacky boy hopping up and down like he's in a high school play is OK?

        so your take on this is pick the Ivory Towered debutante ( i know what it means, and its applicable with this guy) or the failed Car Salesman.

        We are doomed!

        • Holly Stick

          Run along, little fella, the grownups are talking.

  • Jameshalifax

    Apparently, by Aaron's sour comments he agrees that Harper was the winner.

    Suck it up Princess….Iggy had his chance and he blew it.

  • The Thorn

    “I don’t accept the truth of these attacks,” Mr. Harper pleaded.

    I'm glad someone else caught that :)

  • katie smith

    Sadly, I learned nothing that I didn't know already.

    Harper's a sneering unattractive (in all ways) man who's position is: ignore what I do to your democracy; care only what I do to the economy. (Incidentally, though I am aware of all laws against such comparisons, that is precisely the platform the Nazi's ran on to get elected in 1933 – after which, they promptly did away with democracy).

    Ignatieff's a trier and I want to like him, I wish he would do better, but he is always falling short.

    I like Jack Layton, but does that mean I am going to vote for his Party?

    And Duceppe is the best scrapper but he will never be fighting for me so the point is pointless.

    Thus, the first debate changed nothing for me, and according to the polls, for no one else either. And now the latest scandal – the G8 boondoggle AG report – is lost and passed by … while the polls stagnate drearily on …

  • Tony, SFO-YUL

    As a Canadian living in the US, I watched the entire debate on the Web. Canada needs a change.
    The stoic figure of Harper, don’t let him Con Canada again.
    Ignatieff would be a good change for the better, I think.

    • Kevin S

      If we wanted Mao we would fly to Chine and dig him up instead!

  • Elisabeth

    I was disappointed in all of them. I kept on waiting for the leaders to actually answer the questions they had been asked instead of just saying 'this is why x,y,z is a bad person and you shouldn't vote for them'. Ok, we get it. Can you please answer the question and tell us why you are better? What are your policies? The questions were good ones and whoever answered them the best should get to be the next Prime Minister. Instead, we got two hours of watching whiny brats and another two coming up tonight.
    Where is the substance?

  • Kevin S

    I like what you did there put Harper and Nazi in the same paragraph, cept the Nazi's were the Nationalist Socialist party.

    I figure that would be the NDP they certainly fit the Socialist part, as for the Libs with Iggy quoting Mao, that now places them firmly in the Communist side of things! :)

  • Holly Stick

    That's what he did, except when he started with "Let me be clear"; not unlike Nixon's "Let me be perfectly clear…"

  • ColdStanding

    I will not retract "sloppy" when, after objecting to it, you go on to admit as much.
    It is not certain that the lines between the judiciary and parliament are blurry. There is a very clear delineation in statutory law and in point of practice with case law. Parliament authors, Crown enacts, Executive enforces, Courts determine. Don't waste your time fussing around with imaginary similarities that have no basis in Canadian parliamentary practice. Names matter. It matters that it was not the H o C that tried HRH Charles I, because he was tried in a court. If parliament (H o C or H o L) was a court, why would there be any need to set up a new one to conduct the trial? Pretty much does not count. Tell the judge that you pretty much managed to stop at the stop sign when you accidentally ran over someone. To call the Canadian H o C a court seems, prima facia, baseless and sloppy.
    The fact that it shares commonalities with a court of law does not make it a court of law. My car shares commonalities with a horse drawn buggy, but it would be called one only as a figure of speech or sloppy comparison.
    The H o C would be the proper arena for any proposed changes the CCRF to be tabled, but in point of practice we are talking about several orders of magnitude of increased difficulty in affecting changes compared to normal statutory law. That is a difference that makes a difference.

    • harebell

      Again blurry doesn't mean sloppy it just means not actually decided in law. That seems to be the way that both Parliament and the judiciary want to leave it too.
      The court organised by the HoC was another committee of parliament. It was conceived by parliament, staffed by parliament and run by parliament. Sounds like both a court and parliament to me. Ducks walking and quacking and all that.
      And after all that you still cannot bring yourself to say that Parliament can change the charter. Yes it is a lengthy, difficult etc process, but Parliament can still change the charter.

      • ColdStanding

        If you prefer to attribute your mishandling of the terms to lack of or faulty vision as opposed to overly broad and sloppy, fill your boots.

        Which court are you talking about? How does your description of how it is organized nullify the fact that a court of law and parliament are not the same thing and that parliament is not a court? Why are you having such a hard time getting it? If you think I am wrong, provide me a third party reference to bolster your claim.

        What part of "The H o C would be the proper arena for any proposed changes the CCRF to be tabled…" would lead you to believe that I think the H o C wouldn't be involved in changes to the CCRF? (And if it was a court of law, why are the courts the venues for charter challenges?)

      • ColdStanding

        OK here is a link that does bolster your assertions http://www.parliament.uk/about/living-heritage/ev…
        But that is the UK. Although the UK House of Lords still does Judicial review, the Canadian Senate does not have similar powers.

        Therefore, visa vie the original post of this thread, in archaic (or if not archaic then certainly uncommon) usage and in the UK, parliament does have its origin as a court. It is my assertion that, in Canada, Parliament ( HoC and Senate) is almost to never referred to as a court and it isn't construed as the highest court in the land. I am saying that the highest court in the land is the SCC.

        You might find this article interesting: http://faculty.marianopolis.edu/c.belanger/quebec…
        It talks about how the Supremacy of Parliament has been curtailed by the CCRF, leading to de facto supremacy of the SCC in a number of instances.

        Again, this all goes back to my original assertion of sloppiness. A fault I might also be guilty of. Yes, parliament has it's ancient origins as a court of the Crown. Yes, it is technically proper in some countries, especially the UK, to call parliament, the High Court of Parliament. In Canadian usage, as it is understood by the vast majority of Canadians, the Parliament of Canada is not thought of as a court because the Law Courts are thought of as a courts referring to the evolving distinction between the branches of government.

        • harebell

          Maybe my history might have led to conflating aspects of the two institutions sorry.
          Nice links

          Also I love the
          "as it is understood by the vast majority of Canadians"
          The vast majority of Canadians thought a coalition was unconstitutional and that we all elected the Prime Minister back in 2008. I would rather that discussions like this take place where actual points are raised that have some foundation in reality. If that makes me elitist because I like to understand what is, rather than what I think is should be then guilty as charged.

          • ColdStanding

            It turns out that the reason that it is so understood by the vast majority of Canadians is because that is in fact how the law and parliamentary practice sees it too. See the link provided below.

            It is important to keep in mind that, while the UK has the Mother parliament, practice is not consistent or universal across all Westminster style parliaments. The concept "The Canadian Parliament is the Highest Court" did violence to my unconsciously correct understanding of it's character. I am glad to now be consciously correct.

      • ColdStanding

        Here is another link that would severely weaken your claim: http://www2.parl.gc.ca/MarleauMontpetit/DocumentV…

        Note how this page makes a distinction between the UK and Canadian practice and how it says that the Canadian Parliament has never had a judicial component. Note how in saying that Canadian Parliament has never had a judicial component that the authoritative article is tying a judicial role with the courts. This would bolster my assertion that the Canadian Parliament is not a court because it does not have a judicial function.

        • harebell

          Indeed but Milliken's review of Lee's book on Parliamentary powers casts at least a degree of doubt on the distinction you make above. http://www2.parl.gc.ca/Sites/LOP/Infoparl/english…

          Lee lists the powers of inquest that belong to Parliament and
          ".. he describes Parliament’s penal powers to punish for contempt and discusses, somewhat inconclusively in light of a dearth of precedents, the impact of the Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms. "
          Penal powers mean powers of judgement and punishment to me anyway and when combined with,
          "Parliament’s powers to ask questions are virtually limitless…"
          It indicates the presence of a very special court indeed.

          This is what I mean by blurry, there is a fair bit out there that prevents the assuming of absolute positions on this. Right now I'm trying to track down a copy of Lee's book to research more, but I do respect Milliken's knowledge and opinion on this.

          • ColdStanding

            Perhaps, if Canada elects another minority government, we shall see a re-animation of these vestigial functions. This election was purportedly called on contempt of parliament grounds. But there is, to my mind, a very important reason why these already limited judicial functions have been, here to fore, allowed to go fallow : partisanship (and rarity of minority government which are the only circumstance under which the opposition is likely to be able to use them). Parliamentary proceedings against another member just can't achieve a standard of impartiality that Canadians expect from the judiciary.

            This is why Parliament has delegated these functions, in accordance with historical practice, to the bodies we now think of as separate entities: the courts. I suppose in a country where courts are seeming to have legislative powers, it might not be unusual (but most unwelcome) for the legislative branch to reanimate dead judicial powers.

            Interesting.

          • harebell

            Very interesting
            I believe that is twice now that we have had a discussion that began with seemingly entrenched positions, but both resulted in me being much the wiser for it.
            Until next time.

  • Ethos

    Every party at the debate agreed to lower taxes on medium and small businesses, that wasn't at issue. Even the NDP were in favour of tax breaks… And that is on top of already competitive tax rates amongst G20 nations. There is no issue with alleviating taxes on small businesses, as you can generally be sure that the money they generate will stay within the communities and circulate in the nation.

    This is not an issue that concerns small business… this is about large corporations. I can't speak to your specific situation but I work currently in a mid-sized manufacturing company that is generating around 25% profit margins. The stated goal is to reach 30%, and any tax break we recieve is going towards reaching that goal. Any plans to raise wages? No. Hire more employees? No.

    There is no criticism toward the company in that, raising wages out of charity will only forfeit a competitive advantage, and hiring new employees only makes sense if there were a market to sell them to. As it stands our markets are so mature that the only means of expanding is through taking market share, which obviously only takes jobs from your competitors rather than creates new ones.

    • Ethos

      The point being that lowering the corporate tax rate, when it is already very competitive, does not grow the economy because it doesn't grow the domestic market. You dont hire new workers to build product you cant sell, and you dont raise wages without incentive. Money put into the top of the economy, stays at the top.

      If you were to find a way to inject that money into the bottom of the economy, however, it would find its way up to the top very quickly and would give companies a reason to expand and a reason to raise their wage level. Businesses make remarkable things happen when they have to work for the money they are getting.

  • chet

    Iggy only shows up to parliament 30 % of the time?

    Is that part of the vaunted "respect for parliament" we've been hearing from Iggy? I wonder how many of our employers would form the opinion we "respected" our place of work if we only showed up there a third of the time.

    I guess he's "just visiting" in parliament too.

  • Leo

    JMHO but there is going to be a lot of mileage out of his 'no-shows' for voting.

    Pretty stinky stuff for an attack ad, lol!!!

  • Andrew (not PorC)

    Unfortunately it was a made-up stat.

  • SocialLiberal

    He's been in that damned bus shaking hands all the time. What the hell do you want from him?

  • Marv

    And Harper was "visiting" 37% of the time – so what say you now Chet?

  • chet.999@gmail.com

    I was surprised to learn that Iggy's attendence is not only low,

    but the lowest of all MP's.

    That's quite the prize. The word that most comes to mind is:

    Poseur.

  • Pathetic

    Layton and Ignatieff debating style: I know you are but what am I ?

    A dumb American debating style: "Senator, I served with Jack Kennedy. I knew Jack Kennedy. Jack Kennedy was a friend of mine. Senator, you're no Jack Kennedy."

    I'm very embarrassed!!!!

  • Eas Coas

    My understanding is that you are wrong on three counts:

    1) Assuming you believe Layton's numbers, they are wrong. Mansbridge corrected it to 59% last night
    2) His is not the lowest of all MPs, but of all leaders
    3) His attendance was low for votes, not for attendance in general

    That's my understanding. As always, I stand to be corrected.

  • chet

    "Ignatieff looked animate"

    Wellllllll……that's one way of putting it. But animate in the sense that he looked putulantly snide and angry the whole time.

    It's one thing to say "you cannot be believed…here are the real facts" (then present facts which contradict the statement)

    and quite another to say "you don't tell the truth, you can't be trusted"

    Which is what Iggy said over, and over and over again. That's just a base smear that will surely resonate with the Harper haters on the left, but will be off putting to those in the middle.

    Most importantly though, it evidences a failure to appreciate the factual matrix surrounding the issues of our day. A young child can hurl "you're a liar" slurs all day long.

    For a Harvard debating master, this was an epic fail.

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