Who won? Who cares?

by Andrew Coyne on Wednesday, April 13, 2011 2:26pm - 225 Comments

1. I don’t want to hurt anybody’s feelings, but that set was the most hideous thing I have ever seen. And I’ve been in Communist-era East European hotel lobbies. Orange, yellow and brown? With the corrugated carboard thing? And the… and the… Wha? Who designed this? Union Carbide?

2. On the other hand, I quite liked the format. There were some good exchanges, where you really saw them arguing with something resembling conviction. I thought the Ignatieff-Layton exchange on Afghanistan, for example, was riveting. Another standout moment: Layton on the plight of aboriginal youth. Not even Jack can fake that level of sincerity.

3. Let’s say it: these are four outstandingly talented individuals, who had obviously worked hard and prepared themselves deeply: none of us in the commentariat would last five minutes with these guys. It wasn’t Shakespeare, but I was proud of my democracy last night.

4. Who won? Who cares? That is, if by winning you mean who was the best debater. On points, I’d say it was Ignatieff, but so what? We’re not picking the best debater. We’re picking a prime minister. (Actually, we’re electing a Parliament, who then chooses a PM, but you know what I mean.)

The “winner,” then, is not who had the best lines or scored the most points in the arguments between the candidates, but who most advanced his case with the voters. Or rather, with some of the voters: the undecided, the switchers, the voters not already fer him or agin’ him.

An example. I thought Ignatieff was outstanding on the attack, or rather in defense of Parliament against the abuses it has suffered under this prime minister. He cut to the point, he counterpunched well (“It’s not bickering, Mr. Harper, it’s democracy”), he spoke passionately and persuasively. I’m just not sure he made the case that he should be prime minister, to the voters who most needed to hear that case.

The voters who are most likely to be upset about this issue probably already are: it’s not as if it has not been in the news for months on end. Of those voters, some are either already in the opposition camp, or if they are still with the Tories, have some other reason that trumps their concern about Harper’s autocratic tendencies— or in other words, need some other reason to switch. Which Ignatieff signally failed to give them, as he has throughout this campaign.

Pollsters consistently report majorities in support of two propositions: one, that the country is on the right track, and two, that the government is on the wrong track. Depending on how they answered those two questions, voters can be divided into four different combinations. Those who believe both country and government are on the right track are presumably with the Tories. Those who believe both the country and the government are on the wrong track are presumably in the opposition camp, but split between the Liberals, NDP, Bloc and Greens. (Those who think the country’s on the wrong track but the government’s on the right track I’m guessing are just confused.)

But the largest group, and the ones most available to the Liberals, are those who side with the majority on both counts: they’re comfortable with the direction of the country, especially in economic terms, but they’re not at all keen on how the Harper government has been conducting itself. They don’t want a change of course, but they do want a change of captains. If that group could be persuaded they could have a different government while keeping the country essentially on the same track — that is, with broadly the same economic policies as the Tories, but less of the autocratic tendencies and general obnoxiousness — they might well switch. Moreover, the Liberals would not have to share that group with the other opposition parties. A voter who likes the general direction of policy under the Tories is unlikely to be found among the ranks of the NDP, Bloc or Greens.

So the failure of the Liberals to reach out to this group is a puzzle. Sure, there are some soft-NDP voters to be had: the Family Pack would be appealing to them. But there are many more, what shall we call them, disconcerted Tories, who would like to live in a country that is both prosperous and democratic. And for them the Liberals have had nothing: lots of talk about redistributing wealth, not a lot about how to create it. And, frankly, not a lot about how they’d fix our democracy, either.

The whole Liberal campaign has been odd, strategically. It is as if they knew they could not win, and decided to play for a close second: to hold Harper to a minority, that is, rather than try to win outright. If after all, you entered a campaign 14 points down, would you not be inclined to take a few chances? Swing for the fences? And yet the campaign has seemed strangely cautious, aimed more at locking down the base than expanding it, reaching out to the left but not the right —which is to say the centre.

But if that’s his game — hold the Tories to a minority, then defeat them in Parliament and take over the government then — he’s got a problem. It may be perfectly constitutional, legal and legitimate, but it doesn’t sit right with a lot of voters. I don’t have a poll to show that, and I don’t need one: I only have to look at what the Liberals have been saying, or not saying, about it. They went for months avoiding the coalition question, even attempt to skate through the campaign without answering it. And when, two disastrous days later, it became apparent that they could not, they gave a carefully worded answer that talked a lot about what would happen, under a minority Parliament, if the Liberals got the most seats, but said nothing at all about what would happen if the Tories did. Even when they clarified that they would not form a coalition in either event, Ignatieff has never ruled out “governing from second-place” in some other way.

Nor should he: it’s perfectly legitimate. It just happens to be unpopular. That’s the conundrum he faces: to be in a position to form a minority government, he has to avoid talking about it. That’s doable, as long as nobody else talks about it. But it’s hard to do, in a debate.

Which brings me, at long last, to that moment in last night’s debate: when he was asked whether the leader of the party that won the most seats had the right to form a government — the exclusive right, as Stephen Harper insists, dishonestly, brazenly, and, as we know from his own intriguing about as opposition leader in 2004, hypocritically.

I’m sure we’ll see this clip again. Because you can see Ignatieff start to say it, then catch himself, mid-sentence, realizing the danger, but too late to stop. If you get more seats, “you get to try …first … to gain the confidence of the House.” His voice seemed to trail off. But by then the Tory war room was already cranking out the press releases.

I feel uncomfortable discussing it in these terms, as if it were some sort of a gaffe. Let me say it a third time: it is perfectly legitimate, on the defeat of a government in the House, for the Governor General to call upon another party to govern. The Prime Minister is whoever commands the confidence of the House, period.

And indeed, to a great many Canadians, the idea of the Liberals taking power, despite having been defeated in the election, with the explicit support of the NDP and the tacit support of the Bloc, is an entirely untroubling, even welcome prospect. But not all Canadians. Indeed, I’m guessing not even all Liberals.

Some will blanch at how far left such a government would be pulled. Others will be concerned that it would be unstable. And for others, it just looks sneaky, whatever the constitutional experts may say — especially because he won’t talk about it.

He’s caught, in other words, in a strategic box. He wants to appeal to NDP-leaning voters, without being seen to “get into bed with” the NDP. But he can’t form a government without getting into bed with them. And so far as centrist voters become aware of this, he may never get the chance to get into bed with them. So he has to try to keep centrist voters from thinking of this. But the Tories keep reminding them of it at every opportunity.

The Tories have a couple of things working for them. One, a good number of voters are weary of minority government, and yearn for the stability of a majority. Two, the Liberals, it would seem, cannot deliver that majority: they are too far back in the polls. All they can offer is — more of the same? No, something worse, the Tories can argue. Needing the the support of only one of the three opposition parties to govern, the Tories have not been beholden to any of them. But the Liberals, with fewer seats, would very likely need the support of both the NDP and the Bloc. Either this would be unstable, or it would lean rather too far to the left, at least for centrist voters’ liking.

There is a way, of course, for Ignatieff to break out of this box: to gather enough support as to seem likely to win the most seats, at a minimum, ideally to be in a position govern as the Tories have, with the support of different parties at different times (a Liberal majority being quite out of reach). But to do that he has to reach out to that big block voters to his right, rather than the smaller block to his left. That he has not is the key strategic failing of the Liberal campaign.

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  • Peterb

    AG Fraser lambastes Liberals for blowing budget by a billion dollars on registry‏

    AG Fraser lambastes Liberals for blowing budget by a billion dollars on registry. When Canada's auditor general tabled her December 2002 report, she set her sights on Ottawa's controversial gun registry program.
    Sheila Fraser blasted the federal government, run by the Liberals at the time, for exceeding its estimated budget, saying that by the time the smoke cleared and all gun owners and their guns were registered, the program would have cost taxpayers more than $1 billion. Opposition critics were quick to point out that figure is 500 times more than the original $2-million estimate. A look at internal audits conducted by the Canadian Firearms Program suggests the cost of the program has been an issue from the beginning.

    http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/story/2009/10/06/f-…

  • Peterb

    Email to CTV Newsnet

    I don’t want to be an alarmist, but inadvertently, there was something very disturbing, told Canadians on the CTV News Network this morning, that should be of great concern about the neutrality, impartiality and the role of some members of the media in this election campaign.
    In reporting about a Harper rally this morning, and the questioning of the Prime Minister, Robert Fife told Jackie Milczarek “We’ll get him”.
    This conjures up a picture of some sort of conspiracy by some members of the media, to undermine or carry out some subversive attack in the dying days of Harper’s campaign, to influence the results of this election or worse – certainly not the role of a supposedly impartial media.
    I think it behooves Robert Fife and CTV, to make public who all constitites the “we”, because otherwise, this is a suspicion and smear of other members of the media who are innocent , professional and not deserving of this accusation of unprofessional conduct.
    Are Canadians , Elections Canada , CRTC and Harper’s protective detail entitled to an explanation of this threat? Has the media watch dog been alerted?
    At best Canadians should be warned of the objectivity and neutrality of some members of the media, in their coverage of this election campaign, and that some individual media types are not above distorting and misrepresenting their reports to Canadians.
    The report that include that threat of “we’ll get him” aired shortly after 11:00 A.M. CST, and I see any reference to it has been removed since in Fife’s reports – for a cover up, and what I would say are obvious reasons. Does CTV brass think that Robert Fife should remain as a reporter on the campaign trail or are their viewers entitled to a more ethical and reputable coverage? Here is the opportunity for CTV to demonstrate to Canadians who have expressed concerns about biased coverage, that they will not countenance any hint of it, on their network coverage of the election campaign and that their integrity is more important than a reporter’s personal vendetta.
    I expect CTV will be issuing an apology to their Canadian viewers.

  • Peterb

    Jack Layton found naked in a bawdy house by Toronto police is the story – fact he wasn't charged does not absolve him of any wrong doing- either criminally or morally.
    It would be best if the media just gave Canadians all the facts and not filter the story so Canadians can decide for themselves.
    If one question has yet to be answered for all Canadians and possibly for Olivia Chow as well – Why were you naked?
    The question that may have been answered for Canadians is, we possibly now have an explanation for that lavish expense account that surpassed any other MP or leader.

  • Peterb

    Is this an Urban Myth or was this news story actually filed on Jan. 9 1996.

    City of Toronto councilor, Jack Layton was treated for injuries sustained when he crashed his bicycle on the front lawn of his residence. When EMS workers arrived they found Jack Layton fully clothed, lying on the lawn, with wife Olivia near his side. She still tightly clutched a Nike 5 iron. He declined treatment at the scene but asked to be taken to a massage parlor for therapy and relief of pain.

  • Peterb

    Velvet Touch – A Community Clinic- Who Knew???

    Olivia Chow was quick to release a written statement, that husband Jack Layton indeed did attend a "registered massage clinic" and she was well aware of it and he "needed a massage" late in the evening.
    Jack Layton, later at a rally in Burnaby, was quick to point out and clarify Olivia's comment, that in fact it was a "community clinic" (Velvet Touch) where he obtained his services. In trying to protect his political career, and in tune with the NDP philosophy, he felt it very important to stress it was a "community clinic" not to be confused with a private clinic. It was essential in the middle of this election, to inform Canadians, in order to solicit their support, he wouldn't be caught dead at a private clinic, where illegal, underage, Asian sex workers, would be employed by rip off artists, in the Canadian health care field – it would have to be a community clinic he patronizes – there should be no confusion. A good leader leads by example.
    I wonder if Canadians becoming more aware of the fine details of the NDP health care platform and of Layton's expansion of health care services to include these "community clinics", help explain the surge in support for the NDP in this current election. Does anybody in the main street media have a better explanation for the NDP surge and why are they reluctant to discuss this NDP expansion of Canada's health services?
    Why and how could the Toronto city police confuse a community clinic with a bawdy house?

  • Vlad Bunea

    We don’t care because we are immune to what is relevant. We confuse opinion with directive, directive with criticism, criticism with insult, insult with authority, authority with expertise, expertise with amateurism, amateurism with creativity, creativity with intelligence, intelligence with arrogance, arrogance with violence, violence with frustration, frustration with inability, inability with handicap, handicap with illness, illness with randomness, randomness with freewill, freewill with self-awareness, self-awareness with reason, reason with opinion. We don’t care because we are confused.
    Read full article here: http://bunea.blogspot.com/2011/10/why-we-dont-care.html

  • OriginalEmily1

    I find it fascinating the way you always manage to talk yourself around…by the next day… no matter the misgivings and outrage of the previous night.

  • Leo

    “you get to try …first … to gain the confidence of the House.” – the cat is getting out of the bag, lol!!!

    I am sure we can count on Gilles the provoquer to bring up the 2004 coalition/agreement again tonight which will lead into post election possibilities.

  • biaced

    Dear Andrew;

    The confused box in your matrix could easily be where the right wing of the Conservative party fits. If the Harper Government doesn't start moving there he may well find a lot of this cohort sitting on their hands.

    As to Ignatieff''s view of democracy? Well, I think Ignatieff made Harpers point about bickering when he shouted his response out. It sure looked like bickering to me and then Jack put the nail in the coffin of Ignatieff's democracy argument when he quipped something like "someone looking for a promotion should show up for work".

    Harper trumped ignatieff and Layton trumped Ignatieff — how then did Ignatieff win?

    Harper sure outperformed the MSM's caricature of him. He didn't appear cold, mean or controlling. He looked warm, courteous and patient. Ignatieff on the other hand outperformed the MSM's caricature of himself. He looked shrill, arrogant and out of touch. Maybe closer to the narrative of the Conservative portrayal of him. The MSM did Ignatieff a disservice by building him up too much and trying to tear Harper down. Harper also had the benefit of being to himself on the audience's left. He did well looking into the camera and talking to us and the other's looked like members of a Coalition trying to gang up on him.

    Sincerely,

    Biaced

  • http://twitter.com/iD4RO @iD4RO

    Excellent analysis, as usual.

    As a sometimes-NDP voter and sometimes-Green voter, it's actually kind of frustrating seeing the Liberal campaign veer to the left because it just assures Harper gets all the centrist and right-wing votes. If Ignatieff ran with more red meat for fiscal conservatives, they could vote for his party and let NDP and Green supporters vote for their first choice without having to worry too much about strategic voting. Like Coyne said, surely there are people who want their country to be prosperous and democratic; Ignatieff is instead leaving all those unhappy voters no choice but to vote Conservative and ruining it for the rest of us on the left while he's at it.

  • danR

    .
    Canadians will vote according to the model of leader they've been conditioned to accept:

    CEO of Canada, Incorporated
    or
    Prime Minister of Canada, Democracy.

    They have been conditioned to find the former acceptable: our political zeitgeist is conditioned by corporations, entrepreneurs, businesses, including the businesses of MacLeans, Nik (the fixer, turned political scientist and pundit) Nanos, Ipsos-Reid, CTV, CBC (increasingly), Globe and Mail, (increasingly) universities as corporate adjuncts, Mom and Pop stores, Banks, RIM, Apple.

    The CEO of the Government of Harper does not fit the image, visually or by demeanor, of a Mubarak or a Putin. He has nibbled away at the edges of the democracy cookie slowly enough that nobody notices. He looks as dangerous as the Pillsbury Dough-Boy. His style is leading-edge efficient management: even emails have been templated into corporate ant-colony chemical/antennae communicative handshakes. He can play the piano, have a bit of fun with the now twice-exploited Lady Gaga cover, first by Gaga, now by a leader of a nation democratic increasingly by constitution only.

    The (de facto only) alternative is the Harvard Shape-shifter apologist for American exceptionalism, impressive only for being taller than Harper. I can't think of any other reason why the Liberals haven't send him back to the U.S. (Or England, his alternate vote-casting grounds, or Russia, or wherever the hell he belongs).

    Except that Coyne has labelled him a phony, rather than someone who has fielded awkward questions in the toughest proving-grounds on earth: labourers, and university classroom to the extent that every gram of insincerity has been burned out of him long ago, there is no particular reason not to vote for Jack.

    But if you want a corporation, go for it. Democracy? You're not getting both. Whatever. 'Pass the peas. When's the Hockey game?…' etc.
    .

  • lenny

    "the cat is getting out of the bag, lol!!! "

    Before you know it everyone will understand how our parliament works!

  • ZestyMordant

    That particular cat has never been bagged.

  • Dot

    I find Coyne increasingly parroting CPC talking points. I don't follow his logic on right of centre swing voters (neither last night nor here).

    It appears he's given up. Frankly, if Harper is returned with a minority 9or better still a reduced minority) – the better formula to get rid of him. If you are a right-of-centre swing voter who is tired of his autocratic anti-democratic tenure.

    So, what happens if he prevails and wins a majority? Someone to replace him with such Machiaveliian skills? Not in 2011 within the up and comers in the CPC- this is not 1492. The house of cards will quickly collapse.

  • Margaret

    Meh. Nobody knows what's going to happen, not even Coyne.

  • prescott

    Isn't it funny how people's perceptions can differ so radically. You are obviously a Harper fan and saw good things. I am not a Harper fan and saw bad things. I saw stiffness, awkwardness, dead eyes which would not look at the others in the eye, and a Tremclad head. I don't trust this fellow. My gut feeling just is not comfortable with him. He seems to lack humanity and all those wonderful things that make up a warm and good-hearted human being.

    Of course, all these politicos lie. That is part of their make-up, but with Harper, even given a choice, I think he would still choose to lie as he is more comfortable lying and can lie with such sincerity. He has bought his own press and is so tightly controlling that when he blows, it will be ugly for our country.

  • allen

    Harper looked like a robot -couldn't even look anyone in the eye.

  • Thwim

    In some ways, CPC supporters remind me of Linus, looking for their Great Pumpkin in Harper. No matter how many times it doesn't happen, they're more than willing to just shake their fist and cry out, "Just wait til next year!"

  • Ruta

    I guess it depends on your perspective. To me Harper appeared cold, manipulative, and effectively evading all questions simply by saying " We don't agree with that". Mind you, the Liberals had many strong cards they didn't play: We kept a balanced budget for ten years, We resisted Mr. Harper's wish to de-regulate the banks, so that Canada's healthy recovery from the Global recession is down to us. As well as countering Mr Harper's claim to keeping a minority government going by very specifically citing the two prorogations when the Opposition actually grew a pair and tried to shut it down. And yes, Harper played to the audience – I say played, not spoke, and he did not engage in a true debate.

  • Hoarfrost

    Harper is the best Prime Minister that we have had since Pearson in my lietime and perhaps before. He is trustworthy and honourable.

  • TimesArrow

    Jack put the nail in the coffin of Ignatieff's democracy argument when he quipped something like "someone looking for a promotion should show up for work".

    Ignatieff looked too stunned to respond coherently – bad prep. But the point should be made that Jack sucker punched him. Ignatieff's attendance was only bad this last year while out on the road. Why on earth MI didn't say that is odd. It was a good shot – but actually a cheap one.

  • http://wakinguponplanetx.blogspot.com Candace

    The Conservatives – on the record – support a cap & trade in tandem with a US cap & trade system, since we only emit 2% of the world's GHG and live next to either the biggest, or one of the biggest, emitters. Alone we can do diddly squat even if we shut down every car, furnace, factory or refinery.

    Since the Republicans in Senate & Congress don't like cap & trade… zip

    You may want to research provincial olicies, but that, of course, might not match your preconceived notions.

  • http://www.canadianscenariopaintball.com Kris Taylor

    I also find it ironic that the Conservatives while the house sits are such venemous speakers; yet the voters during an election campaign see them all full of smiles and condolences. Dont people pay attention to this stuff at all? IMO, the media is very much at fault for not pointing this out. Baird acts like a teddy bear on the campaign, but he's well known as the attack dog in Parliament; the media sleeps through these contradictions and doesnt even bother to note the obvious.

    * Sorry for the multi-comments. My comment was too long and the software wanted me to break it up into multiples.

  • Andrew Coyne

    If only there were a voting system that let you vote for the party you prefer, rather than the party you detest, to keep out the party you fear. Oh, wait a minute…

  • David

    "Why Conservatives Will Always Vote Conservative. Authoritarianism"

    Same logic can be used for both sides, Ig and friends have whipped the vote on many measures such as long gun registry.

    Obama fired a popular general who disagreed with him in rolling stone mag.

    The National Socialist German Workers Party implemented "progressive" tax changes and welfare (help poor), followed "scientific"/"liberal" popular with the intellectual elite "social darwinism", survival of the fittest. Nazi writings are heavy with a twisted version of darwin to justify their "final solution" which at first was to ship "undesirables" to africa. By todays political measures they could be called *either* conservative or liberal.

    IMO the scary authoritarians aren't the politicians as they act similar to each other, it is the one sided propoganda that is popular with the masses. Eg if Micheal Moore mentioned Clinton bombing Iraq for WMD in 1998 he would have sold less movie tickets. We get the left wing and right wing absurd bias because that is what the people demand.

    Afganistan, drone attacks in pakistan (double attacks and deaths under Obama), military tribunals, Guantanamo bay no longer matter when Obama is in charge.

    I don't see the big difference between any of them, Ig's writings on Iraq and terrorism seem "further right" than Harper, Obama does not that different than Bush. On social policies, No Child Left Behind/Bush is similar to Medicare/Obama. Nuke reduction: Bush/Putin deal is bigger % reduction than the later Obama nuke treaty. Taxes: Ig also felt that reduction of corporate taxes stimulated business, the main argument in on small shade of difference of how much.

    CF-35 jets… 5 years down the road they all probably will buy something. Liberals spent millions to fund research on same jets. "Liberal government would cancel the contract and hold a competitive"… will that reduce costs?

    Why not discuss the actual choices of jets, rather than a vague statements? There aren't many choices and each has big flaws.

  • http://halooverride.blogspot.com/ Halo_Override

    +1 internet.

  • modster99

    nicely said. :)

  • Prairieanne

    Yes, OriginalEmily1, you are right. I have to admit, however, that Andrew always takes time to give a detailed analysis whether I agree with it or not.

  • auntie-em-m

    I agree; typical Andrew Cwhine.

  • Atomic Walrus

    The problem is that the Liberal government that maintained a balanced budget had policies much more similar to the current Conservative policies than what the current Liberals are proposing.

  • Blacktop

    We? If so, you also trashed much of Canada's social infrastructure, pushing expense off to the provinces who in turn had to cut health care etc. Most of Harper's spending was stimulus spending, which as an economist he kew dopes not always work. Only when the rest of the world got together and did the same was it feasible.

    Harper played the debates quite well, I thought – and my opinion agrees with the majority of the expert commentators. Let's face it, you have a a guy in charge who was totally ineffective and tried to win the debates by attack measures, waving his arms. He never once said what he offered. Actually, Layton was pretty good but he blew it for me when he didn't even read the budget – obviously there was a deal in the works somewhere i.e what and how many cabinet positions was he promised by the Libs?i

  • Thwim

    No, he's the longest serving minority PM because he's unafraid of using all the powers (and beyond) of an unrestricted PMO to play real-politik against his opponents, including violating the spirit of his own fixed election date laws, proroguing parliament to prevent opposition motions, hiding documents from the house of commons, lying to committees, lying about what the AG said, lying about what the independant PBO said, using government of Canada resources for campaigning purposes, and lets not forget about the alleged bribes and attempting to steal money in the form of election expense reimbursements.

  • GreatWallsofFire

    Only to you, Holly – to more rationale observers, it means all of the spouting off about Harper not being willing to work with the other parties in governing is baseless. What's YOUR explanation as to how Harper has survived five years as PM of a minority government despite his alleged autocracy?

  • TimesArrow

    "They lack the economic vision of that government and are saved from being completely incompetent simply by being unambitious."

    Isn't that true? Great post.

  • SamDavies

    I'll give you bonus points if you can identify the thesis he wrote for his degree….

  • http://dougsamu.wordpress.com dougrogers

    Years of bullying, intimidation, brinkmanship and manipulation doesn't qualify as "willing to work with".

  • GreatWallsofFire

    If he did one tenth of the things in your list – which he didn't – the real scandal would be that the opposition parties let him get away with it for five years. Since I don't believe (although it appears you do) the opposition parties are stupid enough to have let him get away with it for five years, your premise is demonstrably false.

  • GreatWallsofFire

    "Years of bullying, intimidation, brinkmanship and manipulation doesn't qualify as "willing to work with"

    Perhaps you're a better judge of character than I, but I've never thought of Jack Layton or Gilles Duceppe or Michael Ignatieff as being particularly susceptible to bullying or intimidation or manipulation. Any other explanations? Take your time – cogency is important!

  • Holly Stick

    It takes a while to figure out how best to deal with a narcissistic sociopath.

  • Claudia Lemire

    Simple solution, if you don't like him don't read it!

  • Orson Bean

    Coyne, thanks for a very good article. I think you've caught the essence of this rather odd campaign as well as anyone I've read.

  • s_c_f

    Why don't you just say it? I don't need points.

  • http://wakinguponplanetx.blogspot.com Candace

    Mark Holland.
    Pat Martin.

    Every party has them. (If I spoke French, I could probably name a Bloc MP or two)

  • LdKitchenersOwn

    Sure, you don't NEED points but secretly, you know you want them.

  • Thwim

    Learn what "real-politik" means.

    Then when that's done, kindly point out which of the things on my list this CPC government has not done.

  • GreatWallsofFire

    I know it's hard, given what your poli-sci degree cost you, to resist the urge to explain everything by resorting to the theory you wrote your second year major paper about, but you have to try if you want others to take you seriously.

    "Real-politik" is as reasonable an explanation for Harper's staying power as suggesting it's attributable to his daily consumption of tiger blood. "Real politik" doesn't work without opponents who are either prepared to be complicit with you as you strive to achieve your nefarious objectives or are too stupid/naive to appreciate that they're being manipulated in support of such achievement. So which applies to Layton, Ignatieff and Duceppe?

    No, Thwin, it isn't "real-politik" that explains Harper's tenure – it's the voodoo mind tricks that Harper is an acknowledged master of. He can make Ignatieff bark like a dog and Layton dance like Fred Astaire – bad hip and all – at the drop of his hat and is just waiting for the right opportunity to demonstrate his fearsome powers!

  • GreatWallsofFire

    I though Iggy had a 200 IQ – doesn't that kinda help to figure things out?

  • sammmie

    i found the moderators in the French debate to be very rude.Allowing Duceppe to ramble, and cut in on anyone he wanted. He's losing his touch though, he didnt come across that strongly.Time to move on Duceppe. I see the conservatives are making ground on my home turf. Atalanta canada thats good!

  • harebell

    wow somebody has a crush on somebody.
    Still waiting for which item on thwim's list Harper didn't do. You seemed adamant that he didn't do at least some of them. I would add a few more examples of his duplicity – taxation on income trusts, elected Senators, lieing about how a parliamentary democracy works.
    Or does your crush blind you to his obvious faults?

  • GreatWallsofFire

    Why stop there, harebell? He also failed to floss after every meal and makes Laureen take the garbage out.

    Let's try a different tack – I hereby concede Harper did every last thing you and Thwim accuse him of and more. He is far and away the most evil, diabolical and just plain nasty man ever to occupy the office of PM. So how is it he's lasted longer, in the precarious position of presiding over a minority government, than any PM in Canadian history? If he's been as bad as we all agree he's been, why have Iggy et al let him carry on longer than any minority PM in Canadian history? Or do you subscribe to Thwim's goofy "real politik" explanation for his longevity?

  • Peterb

    Iggy wants UN approval for military missions, except when he can't get it

    Asked whether he really wanted to give Beijing and Moscow that kind of power over Canadian policy, Ignatieff chuckled.

    Then he dialed back his debate rhetoric and admitted there could be exceptions.

    “Canada has always believed as a matter of international law, since the creation of the UN in 1945, that the use of force in international affairs should be authorized by the Security Council of the United Nations,” he said. “And when you can’t get authorization from the Security Council of the United Nations, you’d better have an extremely good case in which you can use force. There have been cases. Let’s be perfectly honest, in Kosovo, where international authorization for the use of force was not granted.”

    Another example is Iraq, an intervention Ignatieff once supported.

    But the Liberal leader hasn’t always been enthusiastic about the UN.

    “Well, the UN screwed up in Rwanda, it screwed up in Bosnia — it screws up most of the time,” Ignatieff is quoted as saying in a Maclean’s magazine article in June, 2003. “The United Nations is a messy, wasteful, log-rolling organization.”

  • harebell

    How old are you? Not the most evil and diabolical I can think of a few more that will deserve that accolade. However he is certainly far from being the best or most efficient.
    Some of the reasons why he has held on are:

    He prorogued parliament twice taking a good chunk out Parliamentary business time. The first time because of a terrible back-stabbing blunder, the second because he feared he would not be able to watch the olympics if a campaign was on. So he just excused himself from work at these points.
    He then set in motion a slick propaganda campaign that lied to a poorly informed electorate about the workings of a Parliamentary system. This allowed him to paint his opposition as a kind of fifth column meaning that calling an election was out of the question. It wouldn't solve the problem.
    He had changed the rules via the election law that effectively made calling an election the decision of the leader of the opposition not the Prime Minister. Then he made most votes a vote of confidence. This means he could blame the opposition for any loss of confidence and forcing the country into an unnecessary election. He did this in the full knowledge that the country would not care why an election had been called they would have blamed the opposition.
    The opposition was in no position to fight an election resource wise.

    Those are some of the reasons that he has been the longest serving minority leader in Canadian history. Absence, lieing, enacting a law he ignored but used to control the opposition and having a poorly equipped opposition. There are more but these spring immediately to mind. He opportunistically worked the system and preyed on fear and ignorance.

  • Aview

    There is no winner/loser? … suggest we may not have a loser/winner when the participants know the questions:" in general" before the debate starts – conclusion; it may cause more of a flatlining of the debate? Coyne gave it to Ignatieff on points – really – then he should have more clealy articulated why? … I did like the debate background/format.

  • FVerhoeven

    Would Coyne answer this very question:

    If a minority Liberal government would be formed (without a pre-agreement signed with the NDP and BQ), would Ignatieff present a budget in which ALL of the Conservative demands and all of the NDP demands and ALL of the BQ demands would be met?

  • modster99

    no one wants to hear the past, if it conflicts with what the choose to believe. . .

  • FVerhoeven

    The Liberals are all over the map on these issues.

    I have been saying for years now that Ignatieff's theoretical thinking and writing may sound interesting, but the practice of things is often much more difficult to describe.

    Harper understands the difference between the theoretical and the practical. Ignatieff has not learned,yet, to understand the difference.

  • modster99

    he would have to, because he believes in Democracy, and that would be the only way to ensure that every citizen who voted gets their voice heard – LOL

  • Peterb

    Canadians must also be reminded that one of Iggy's star candidates ( most would say another disgusting one) Publo Rodriquez who is facing serious substantiated criminal charges ( confessed liquor and car accident involvement) and gets a free pass from Ignatieff. He even continues to hold a critic's post in the Liberal caucus. Does Iggy have the blessing of MADD to keep this reprobate on his team? How sad that this abhorrent conduct is tolerated by a national leader.
    Again is it any wonder that the new Liberal crime policy will require no jail cells if they are prepared to allow drunken drivers on our streets and highways?

  • Peterb

    Hockey fans are sophisticated after all.
    I was at a hockey game last nite and a booing broke out.
    Conspiculously it was booing for one politician but applause for another – hockey fans do have some sophistication.

    @RickRadovski Rick Radovski
    4000 people booed #Ignatief at the #Majors game tonight while #Mississauga Mayor#HazelMcCallion got a huge ovation. She should run Canada
    11 hours ago via Twitter for BlackBerry® Favorite Retweet Reply

    Rick Radovski, Vice President Marketing and Sales at St. Michael s Majors Hockey Team, Mississauga,

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