John Geddes

John Geddes

John Geddes writes on politics and policy, with occasional reporting and comment on arts and culture.

Ignatieff talks minority scenarios

by John Geddes on Tuesday, April 19, 2011 6:54pm - 442 Comments

I suppose it was a tactical error for Michael Ignatieff to describe the way the parliamentary system works in his interview today with CBC’s Peter Mansbridge.

You might imagine it wouldn’t be all that risky to display a rudimentary understanding of the conventions of the House of Commons, as inherited by Canada from Britain. But there you’d be wrong. This will be treated as big campaign news, and the Conservatives are naturally all over it.

What exactly were the dangerous words that Ignatieff dared utter? Well, if Stephen Harper wins with a minority, but can’t gain the required confidence of the House, and the governor general calls next on the Liberal leader to try to form a government, then Ignatieff said he would “talk to Mr. Layton, or Mr. Duceppe, or even Mr. Harper, and say, ‘We have an issue, and here’s the plan that I want to put before Parliament, this is the budget I would bring in,’ and then we take it from there.”

That’s it. In a better world, this bland description of the possibilities in an unstable minority situation might  be useful in a rigorous high school civics class. In this one, it will be useful to the Conservatives.

Of course, there’s nothing wrong with Harper arguing that Liberal government of any description would be a terrible thing, in particular one propped up by the NDP or the Bloc or both. But it’s a disservice to democracy to suggest there’s something nefarious in what is merely one of the outcomes allowed by convention if an election doesn’t reward any party with a majority.

It’s true that what Ignatieff described to Mansbridge isn’t the usual thing. Canada has little experience with any party governing other than the one with the most seats. The key example would be the 1985-87 Ontario Liberal government of David Peterson, which was supported by the Bob Rae’s NDP under the terms of an accord.

I don’t recall anyone seriously claiming that was a constitutional travesty. For a more recent case study, you can’t beat the creation just last year of Britain’s coalition of Conservatives and Liberal Democrats. Harper has been widely quoted on his observation that this showed that “winners are the ones who form governments.”

But that’s only how it happened to work out, with the first-place Tories cutting a deal with the third-place Lib-Dems. It might well have gone the other way, with second-place Labor leading the coalition. In fact, that’s what David Cameron believed would transpire on the very evening before he became prime minister.

“It’s not going to happen,” Cameron told his wife that dark night. “I’m going to be leader of the opposition. I’m depressed that it hasn’t worked out as we wanted.” (This quote is from an engrossing BBC behind-the-scenes story on the formation of the coalition.)

It’s worth noting in the current Canadian context, though hardly for the first time, that the prospect of a second-place party running the show was not viewed in Britain as illegitimate. In fact, the BBC account has Cameron being praised for tactical “brilliance” for not asserting his right, as the leader of the party with the most seats, to form a government on the morning after the inconclusive election. Instead, he put a comprehensive plan on the table, courting the necessary Liberal Democrat backing, rather than trying to bluster his way into 10 Downing Street.

Lest we imagine that those Brits are just so damn sophisticated that they automatically handle these situations with a minimum of nonsense, I should mention that their 2010 election also stirred up anxiety surrounding minorities and coalitions. Nick Clegg, the Lib-Dem leader, felt the need to assert well before election day that the party with the most seats would have won a mandate to try to form a government. Clegg was trying to insulate himself from incessant campaign questions about how he might act if no party won a majority.

Sound familiar? Ignatieff tried to stop this issue from dominating the race he’s now running by asserting early on that the party with the most seats gets first crack at seeking to win the confidence of the House. And that seemed to have worked for him, at least up until today’s interview.

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  • MTB

    Well, I see the Conbots are determined to resurect this as an election issue. Good luck with that guys.

    • Ariadne

      Actually it was Iggy and Bob Rae who resurrected this in each of their interview yesterday.

  • fredpenoir

    i predict a liberal/conservative coalition… lol just kidding. makes the most sense though since policy wise they are closest together.

  • Ariadne

    So three hundred million and counting for an election not many wanted, add to that the ransom amount paid, and principles thrown away for BLOC's propping a coalition. Heap on top of those the many promises made by Liberals + NDP + BLOC, is it realistic then to expect a total debt of a trillion within just a few years? It is so tempting and so easy to spend money but difficult earning let alone keeping them.

    Will we be facing a none working coalition like in UK, where nothing important gets done? And are we going to go through a revival of Bob Rae Ontario's experience all over again?

  • HarveyMushman

    I honestly haven't taken the time to read all 400+ comments…but I've read several editorials which point to the 1985 "Accord" between Ontario's NDP and Liberals who formed the government when the Conservatives actually won the most seats in that election. It's held up as an example of how this is no big deal.

    There's Two major differences though. In that election the Liberals and Conservatives were very close in seat totals (45/50 respectively.) The Liberals in that case did not have to rely on a fringe party that most Ontario voters despised in order to cobble together a coalition. (notwithstanding semantic arguments over "coalition" vs "accord" vs "agreement" vs…)

    I would hazard a guess that in a federal election where Liberals gained (something like) 120 seats compared to 130 Conservative seats…Canadians wouldn't have much of a problem with some sort of accord with the NDP forming the government.

    This clearly is not going to happen this election. The Liberals will end up with a significantly lower number of seats than the Conservatives…no matter which polling data you choose to look at. That in itself make their "legitimacy" to form a government questionable in the minds of many Canadians. This means that it is highly, highly unlikely they can even gain enough seats to form a government with only the support of the NDP…and now you have the Bloc holding the balance of power.

    Ignatieff is quite correct that according to the rules and parliamentary tradition he has the right and ability to vote out the Conservatives and come to an agreement that makes him the PM. That doesn't mean the majority of Canadians will like it…which apparently they don't.

    • MTB

      Well, the key difference between this and any other coalition is that this one has NEVER happened! It is a figment of Stephen Harper's imagination.

  • West Newf

    On the level of blunder's it was a Waterloo, a Stalingrad, a Gallipoli! Battle over and lost!

  • ABHarperRegime

    Layton Mania !

    Jack won the debates for me, no other leader can touch Jack as an average Joe Canadian you can TRUST.

    I was considering voting Liberal(ABHarperRegime), but when Jack mentioned the Liberal leaders lack of attendance it really hit a nerve for me, as I've always thought to myself that I just cant picture Iggy sitting their in opposition if he looses the leadership?, I think he'll be long gone back to his American home.

    The hardest working MP in Parliament, bar none.

  • daprior

    Why is it so hard for some people to understand…its not the Coaltion thats the issue…it was standing in front of cameras and being asked if this election was about gaining power through a Coaltion and Ignatief answering "no". It was the CBC on March 26 saying..Ignatief clears air on coaltion. It was the MSM reporting that Ignatief had finally swept the coaltion idea away by saying "no". Its Stephen Harper saying over and over again that this was the main goal of the Liberals and the CBC, the Globe and the TorStar all coming out ridiculing the PM. The media got played because you WANTED to believe him. Coaltion…fine…no big deal….just friggen tell me about it before I vote and find out that Jack Layton is friggen Finance Minister. Why is that so hard for you guys to understand??

  • terry86

    Your absolutely right! Why did it take three weeks for him to admit what he had in mind.

  • Richard_S_Argent

    I wasn't aware that Ignatieff said anything about a coalition today…

    cooperation =/= coalition

  • Jenn_

    Um, it still wouldn't be a coalition.

  • Sean W

    Because there is no plan, and therefore nothing to tell you about. The guy wants to win an election, and if he doesn't, Harper has to get the confidence of the House. If SH goes for his usual brinksmanship and demands that his minority be afforded majority-like authority, he won't have earned the confidence of the House. In that case, it's up to the GG to find someone who can. No one is scheming to make anyone minister of anything. What is so difficult about that to understand?

    Have an argument about whether he should be scheming or not, if you must, but there is simply nothing to suggest anyone is actually doing so. Wild speculation and partisan ranting doesn't make it true.

  • craigola

    Why is it so friggen hard for you to friggen understand that it's not that I don't understand your friggen argument, it's that your friggen argument fails to move me?

  • OriginalEmily1

    Ahem….it's how the parliamentary system works. I'm sure it's not Iggy's first choice either, but those are the rules.

  • Amateur Hour

    He hasn't changed his tune. He said at the start that the party with the most seats after the election gets first crack at forming a government and that he's not going to form a coalition. He was asked about what happens if that Party fails.

  • WildRoseAB

    It is unfortunate that in a minority the CPC and LPC could not work together to form a working government. Their positions are the closest and most mirror the majority of Canadians. Unfortunately they are both wired to say no to the other no matter what the question. Therefore the NDP and/or the Bloc become the dance partners. That moves the country further left than most are comfortable with and/or gives in to Bloc extortion. The only way to avoid that – a majority. That is what the CPC should be saying – not railing against coalitions in general.

  • Curt

    Emily,
    We all know how it works. Teaming up with the Bloc is unrealistic and English Canada will be up in arms just like 2008.

  • Jenahlin

    Why did Iggy lie to us by denying it?
    This sounds like another scandal

  • TwoYen

    I think that is precisely what the Conservatves are saynig. As we get closer to the next referendum, very few Canadians want their PM beholden to extortion from separatists in order to stay in power.

  • A_logician

    Harper's personality is totally unsuited to co-operation with anyone, including factions in the CPC. If he had to work with some other party, and give up micromanaging, slinging insults in Question Period, deliberately misleading the public and iron-fisted secrecy, his head would probably explode. That's why he paints coalitions as evil – to him they are unthinkable.

  • OriginalEmily1

    No, that's the problem. You don't.

    English Canada was never 'up in arms'…..Cons were.

    But then Cons have a vested interest.

  • chet

    The question is this:

    Would the average Canadian want to know if Iggy would try to form a government with the support of the Liberals and the Bloc?

    Of course they would, which is why Iggy made the grandstanding announcement at the beginning of the election to rule out a coalition.

    Now we have him trying to slide it in at the 11th hour as a possibility, with his water carriers splitting hairs over what precisely is the definition of a "coalition", suggesting it's "no big deal" that its just a innocuous statement of process – some odd out-of-place history lesson in parliamentary procedure wholly unrelated to his intentions.

    The propagandizing here is simply amazing.

  • hollinm

    If your assertion is right then why did Harper's polling numbers go up to I think it was 45%. Get real Emily.

  • hollinm

    Too cute by half that's the problem. He is afraid to utter the word coalition so he uses other uphemisms.

  • Just Joe

    Teeny weeny amygdala.

  • Richard_S_Argent

    Ah yes, that age old uphemism [sic] for "coalition" – "I'm not going to form a coalition."

  • Jenn_

    And it's also why a majority is so difficult to obtain. This is Canada. We are NICE!

  • Claudia Lemire

    No true,coalitions aren't unthinkable to him he has never said that not once, it is this particular coalition, this particular set of characters.

  • Just looking

    Go to bed Chet…

  • http://halooverride.blogspot.com/ Halo_Override

    No, the questions are:

    ? – Why are every action and statement of Ignatieff to be gone over with a fine-toothed comb, and then assumed to be false and self-serving anyway, just because "he's a Liberal and therefore not to be trusted"…

    …while the actions and statements of Harper are to be accepted at face value, to always be given the most generous possible interpretation, and assumed to be the work of the only honorable party in Canadian politics?

    ? – Why is it that most of the Liberal supporters here on these forums are capable of levelling criticisms at their own candidate when he takes a step they disapprove of, yet most of the Conservative supporters tie themselves in knots trying to justify the most egregious actions by their own party, trying to turn them into virtues?

    ? – What does this say about the state of conservatism in Canada today?

    I forgive you in advance for having no comfortable answers. Which is not to say I don't think you'll type some words anyway.

  • Thwim

    3 comments in a row, chet? Just how many people does it take to run that sock-puppet?

    You guys really oughta stagger your shifts.

  • FVerhoeven

    We are too nice to the BQ. Remove the BQ from federal politics, and majorities will be in reach for any of the federal parties AND legitimate coalition forming would be within limits.

  • brooster2

    The BQ isn't likely to go away any time soon. The Canadian parliamentary system has to accommodate that reality. That takes collaboration, compromise, and dialogue, skills that don't seem to be in Harper's repertoire, unless for his own immediate, short-term self-interest.

  • Jenn_

    Okay, Francien. I know the BQ is a particular thorn in your side. So, how would you "remove" them? Remembering, this is a democracy.

  • Richard_S_Argent

    I'm not sure how anyone can listen to the tone of the attacks on the Liberals by the NDP (or the tone of the BQ wrt the the NDP) and still insist that they're all in secret cahoots to take down the Conservatives by the most nefarious of means.

  • OriginalEmily1

    I doubt Harper was ever at 45%….but again you confuse polls with seat projections

    Harp's large following in the west skews the national numbers

  • FVerhoeven

    That would be easy! Two steps: cut off federal subsidies for separatist parties and,

    Any party forming government (either majority or coalition strictly between federal parties with enough combined numbers between the two parties) would have to introduce a motion to change our federal election law.

    The change to the federal election law would merely have to state that any party running within federal elections must present a federal platform, and must run candidates in at least 155 ridings.

    The BQ cannot do that, in fact no provincial party could do so, because for the BQ to run candidates outside of Quebec would do away with the party itself. It is IMPOSSIBLE for the BQ, by its own fundamental pricincple, to run candidates outside of Quebec.

    If the will and the courage is there, the way can be openend up. Simple. Easy. It just takes courage to stand up for a truly federal Canada.

  • Crit_Reasoning

    If you're concerned about the prospect an incredibly shaky Liberal minority government propped up by separatists loyal only to Quebec, you must have a brain defect!

  • Jenn_

    First off, you can't cut off subsidies to a political party because you don't happen to like their platform. Mind you, I have something of a workaround for that issue, which is to remove the 60% reimbursement of expenses, increase the per-vote subsidy, but make it a multiple of how many seats you contest. So for example, $100 per vote x 308 (or 55). It has the added benefit of having a natural 'cap', so we'd know in advance how much it would cost us, unlike the expense reimbursement.

    Changing the law to require all parties to run candidates in at least 155 ridings sounds good at first glance, but it would be next to impossible to start a new party. This could be a feature instead of a bug, except if you don't like any of the current mainstream parties. That Pirate party, for example, sounds like it could eventually go somewhere, but I doubt they are running 155 candidates. But arbitrarily limiting choice in a democracy makes it less of a democracy, don't you agree?

  • noob_goldberg

    It's not like the Reform Party was capable of running 155 candidates in 1988. I believe they ran 72. You gotta start a party somewhere.

  • Thwim

    You'd also outlaw independent candidates. Personally, I think that's an incredibly anti-democratic move.

  • FVerhoeven

    Federal leaders have the right to introduce and change laws reflecting the well-being of our federation.

    Quebecers have a right to try and do what they deem right or righteous, but federally minded Canadian leaders certainly have the right to stand up for a properly working federation. And such right should never, ever be shamed out of them!

    Within first past the post, fringe parties will not have an easy go at it, no matter how many candidates they field. I happen to think that is a good thing for Canada.

    New parties can easily start off with fielding 155 candidates, and had such a rule existed when the Reform party started off, I am sure Manning would have worked with the rule. It would have been a higher treshold for entering into federal politics, but it can be done. When the rules are clear, the way is openened up to every one party equally, and our federal elections would be about federal politics, a notion which effects each and every Canadian equally. And that's what democracy stands for.

  • BGLong

    Nothing wrong with my brain … I'm using it to critically reason. The Bloc is impotent in Ottawa.
    I've never been able to figure out what they think can achieve there. They've always elected
    40-50 members .. usually very talented and dedicated people .. who could be much more
    effective at making gains toward their goal if they were to focus their activities within the
    province of Quebec rather than splashing around in the Ottawa swamps.
    Granted, in Ottawa they can jaw-jaw. But that's only effective insofar as the usual thick suspects
    can be depended on to over-react with stupidity… which manipulative politicians and pompous
    pundits find useful as well. So, it's not the Bloc that scares me. The people that worry about them
    worry me a bit.

  • Jan

    Separatists loyal only to Quebec could be useful in passing such things as the restoration of the Census, setting up the bid for those jets Harper's so in love with, passing some environmental legislation. All kinds if things that don't hve anything to do with Quebec separation – in the way they always have.

  • FVerhoeven

    Had the rules been 155, the Reform party would and probably could have worked with that rule.

    But what you are not addressing, conveniently enough, is the fact that the Reform Party was capable of running candidates across this federation. The BQ CANNOT. That is the major difference you are not willing to look in the face.

  • noob_goldberg

    Why could the BQ not run candidates outside of Quebec? Don't you think they'd get a significant number of votes in the west? They'd just have to find a few people (80, I suppose) who actually want Quebec to separate and set them up as puppet candidates. I mean seriously, who *wouldn't* want to be the Bloc Quebecois candidate who doesn't speak a word of French?

    There are always ways around the rules.

  • lenny

    Reading Deerhoof's little fantasy about outlawing her political opponents, it's obvious why she's so fanatically devoted to Harper.

  • KeithBram

    The real danger in trying to abolish the BQ is that it would lead to a reactionary rise in separatist sentiment in Quebec and we'd find ourselves facing another referendum. Do you really want to go through another one of those any time soon?

  • FVerhoeven

    Are you kidding me?

    To live with a separatist party holding the balance of power over our federation is a better option?

    If federal leaders were to form a coalition govenment as they had proposed in 2008, the BQ would be re-elected with not 45 some seats but with a total of 75. And that indeed would be the end of our federation as we have known it for so long.

    Quebecers have a choice. There are 3 federal parties to choose from. Lots of selection, me thinks.

    But if Quebecers choose to hold the Canadian federation at randsom at each and every time a federal election is called, then I'd rather they go their own way. It would be better for Canada, that's for sure.

    But here's the real thing: the ROC works to the Quebec separatist advantage each and every time the people in the ROC tell everyone to be quiet about the Quebec separation issue, because, good grief, they might just threaten us again, and again…….

    We should not make such a fuss about the issue. When the separation card is played, we should just spell out the facts.

    Quebecers are smart people. They know they are better off within Canada. Quebecers also know that the province has enough power in order to protect and nurture its Quebec culture. But such protection and nurture of culture has to come from within. It cannot be created from without. At heart, Quebecers know that all too well. It just takes more effort to nurture a true Quebec culture from within. That's a fact. And we should never be afraid to state the obvious facts. None of us should be cowards.

  • Crit_Reasoning

    I wasn't suggesting there was anything wrong with your brain. I was mocking Just Joe's "amygdala" comment.

    Now that we've cleared that up, consider the possibility that the Bloc would no longer be impotent in Ottawa if they were propping up a shaky minority, with an effective veto over the budget and important legislation.

    There's a reason why Parizeau was so exuberant about the 2008 coalition: The Bloc would use their unprecedented power in Ottawa to siphon billions more taxpayer dollars into Quebec. They haven't exactly been subtle about such designs in the past. Did you see their recent budget demands?

  • burlivespipe

    Same way Harper avoided it in 2004, doncha know…

  • KeithBram

    There's a difference between being cowards and being practical. Yes, the BQ wants to separate, but their role in parliament is to preserve Quebec's interests for as long as they remain in Confederation. Thus, their interests and the interests of the ROC will often coincide. There is no reason why federalist parties can't work with them where that is the case – and they have. And Quebec blackmailing / federalist appeasement went on long before the BQ and would likely continue even withot the BQ because there's so many seats there.

  • KeithBram

    Pt 2:

    Would Canada be better off without Quebec? I, too, have had such fantasies, but ultimately I think not. The departure of Quebec – or Alberta – would likely mean the dissolution of Canada. At the very least, it would financially cripple us for quite some time – and inevitably lead to bloodshed.

    Finally, "We should not make such a fuss about the issue. When the separation card is played, we should just spell out the facts." Agreed. I have never felt the Clarity Act took things far enough. I think we need a Secession From Canada Act that clearly spells out the obligations of the province intending to separate – up-front payment, on a per-capita basis, of their share of federal debt, as starters. It's a lot harder to spin BS when there is a law that says otherwise. And if they still decide the cost is worth it, at least there is a process set out for the world to see, which should help keep the dollar's value somewhere above the peso.

  • The Thorn

    Why isn't anyone pointing out that this scenario could also happen with a Liberal minority or an NDP minority?

    This is not limited to a Conservative minority. This is hardly a Liberals vs. Conservatives scenario.

    Ignatieff was simply pointing out how our system works and what he would do in that circumstance. Nothing shocking, really… oO

    …but he should have added that, if he were Prime Minister of a minority gvt., Harper or Layton could also topple him and try cobbling together a coalition.

  • FVerhoeven

    Thank you, KethBram. This was a most enjoyable exchange. There will always be various opinions held on this topic, but such is always better than not talking about it. Only by openly talking about it, will change for the better come about.

    I have one small comment to make: Please don't compare the Quebec separatist movement with one existing in Alberta. Albertans have no appetite to break Canada apart. In fact, I would say that most Albertans hold a strong federal Canada dear to their hearts. If anything, Alberta, young as it is, wants in, not out.

    But thanks again for the exchange.

  • austinso

    Are you talking about the 2.3 billion that Harper offered them this time round? Pretty close to what he offered them in 2007 (2.2 billion), eh?

    Yeah…that siphoning sound…the sound of CPC supporter's heads being sucked up their butts by Harper…

  • http://halooverride.blogspot.com/ Halo_Override

    Don't you see? It's all part of the cover-up.

    The Cigarette-smoking Man told me.

  • Niceguy

    Ummmm Taliban Jack wants to be PM….and make Iggy his beeeeeeeatch? Naw…can't be it….

  • Richard_S_Argent

    Careful Halo, you're aging yourself with that reference…so am I by getting it (I might add ;)

  • tobyornotoby

    So you're saying that Harper is into coalitions, just not with any of the other political parties in Canada? Very open minded of him.

  • Ryan

    Seems to me Liberals here are twisting themselves in knots to support this coalition.

    We understand it's legal.

    But so is walking around topless in Toronto if you're a woman.

    How many women do you see walking around topless?

    Canadians need some actual recourse in determining if a coalition is acceptable or not. Because I assure you, no true Canadian does not shudder at the thought of the Bloc playing around in the treasury.

  • OriginalEmily1

    No one except Harper has denied it.

    You might ask why he lies to you….and why you believe it.

  • Thwim

    So now you're asserting that the people in Quebec are not true Canadians?

    Huh. And we wonder why they elect members of the Bloc.

    Personally, I assert that anti-quebecois bigots like yourself are not true Canadians, because my Canada includes Quebec.

  • _Anders_

    Which is where FVerhoeven's first suggestion comes in: eliminate per vote subsidies. The Bloc would have a hard enough time funding campaigns within Quebec, much less trying to pay people to file paper work, find candidates, etc. for campaigns outside Quebec.

  • FVerhoeven

    This is what I posted:" The change to the federal election law would merely have to state that any party running within federal elections must present a federal platform, and must run candidates in at least 155 ridings."

    Notice how it says 'party'.

    Now you may be aware, or maybe not, that an hallmark of an independent candidate is to run independent of any party.

    Why then would my proposal outlaw independent candidates?

    My proposal was not anti-democratic at all. It's just that you would like to paint me in such colours but you do so on a false understanding of what I have proposed. And that would be undermocratic.

  • Thwim

    Think REAAAALLY hard and you might understand that even though the CPC as it currently stands is a dictatorial monolith, parties are, at their heart, a collection of independant candidates that share the same views.

    Are you really going to start requiring that candidates can't refer to a certain website if another candidate is referring to it?

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