A price must be paid—but by whom?

Andrew Coyne decides his ballot question, and who he will vote for

by Andrew Coyne on Thursday, April 28, 2011 11:00am - 454 Comments
A price must  be paid—but  by whom?

Photograph by Cole Garside

Voting is a kind of jury duty, and like the jury system, derives much of its strength from the participants’ lack of specialized knowledge of the subject. A specialist can become jaded, or obsessed with finer points; the public has the benefit of distance. My own experience as a political writer confirms this. I will frequently get exercised about this or that controversy, and wonder why the public is not of the same mind. But the public is called upon to judge not only this controversy, but a great number of issues of varying weights, and in the fullness of time, as that particular issue takes its place among the others, it often does not seem quite as all-important to the public as it had earlier seemed to me. And most of the time the public is right.

To vote is to distill a complex array of different, possibly conflicting considerations into one: the parties, the leaders, the local candidates, plus whatever issues are pertinent to you, and the parties’ positions on each. Which makes that perennial journalistic search for the “ballot-box question” such a preposterous enterprise. Every single voter will have his own ballot-box question, or questions. I cannot tell you what yours is, or should be. I can only tell you mine.

For me there are two issues of overwhelming importance in this election. The first is the economy, not only in its own right but for what it means for our ability to finance the social programs we have created for ourselves. The second is the alarming state of our democracy: the decaying of Parliament’s ability to hold governments to account, and the decline, not unrelated, in Parliament’s own accountability to the people.

I can eliminate two options off the top. While both the NDP and the Greens offer appealing proposals for democratic reform, I can’t bring myself to vote for either. It isn’t only their policies—the enormous increases in spending and taxes, the ill-judged market interventions—but their personnel. Simply put, neither party is ready for government.

So the choice for me is between the Conservatives and the Liberals. And as I have wrestled with it, the ballot question that has occurred to me is this: would the Liberals do more harm to the economy than the Conservatives would do to democracy? Or perhaps: would the Liberals harm the economy more than the Conservatives would? Would re-electing the Conservatives do greater harm to our democracy than electing the Liberals? And: which concern should weigh more heavily in the balance?

I give the nod to the Conservatives on the economy, though not by a wide margin. I think their instincts are generally sounder. But their readiness to play politics keeps getting in the way. So while they have a good record in some areas—cutting corporate taxes, opening trade talks with Europe and India, abolishing tariffs on intermediate goods and introducing tax-free savings accounts among them, as well as their deft handling of the banking crisis—it has to be balanced against the politically driven plunge into deficit, the bailout of the auto industry, the cuts in GST rather than income taxes, and an approach to foreign investment that can only be described as whimsical.

The same caution applies to their platform. I don’t doubt they can cut $4 billion out of annual program spending by 2015, without harm to needed services; my only concern is whether they will. Their unwillingness to spell out what they would cut does nothing to allay that concern. More positively, they do seem to have nailed their colours to cutting corporate tax rates. But how much more could both personal and corporate rates be cut if they did not persist in doling out tax credits and subsidies to favoured constituencies?

The Liberal platform, on the other hand, is more consistent, at least in economic policy terms: it is wrong-headed in every respect—higher spending, higher taxing, more meddlesome generally. Its saving grace is that it is only half-heartedly so. The Liberals would raise corporate taxes, but more for show than anything else: lifting rates back to the 18 per cent they were last year is the wrong way to go, but hardly the apocalypse. They aren’t going to get anything like the $6 billion in revenue they claim from these, but neither do they need it. The $5.5 billion in extra spending they propose is barely two per cent of program spending, and would not on its own threaten the country’s fiscal position.

And that’s what it would take to really worry about what the Liberals would do to the economy in the short term. When it comes to taxes or regulations, it takes a long time for even the stupidest government policy—for example, the Liberals’ proposal to shower selected “Canadian Champion Sectors” with subsidies—to really harm the economy. It’s macroeconomic policy that can really run you onto the rocks: running massive deficits, or letting inflation get out of hand. Call me naive, but I do not think the Liberals would do either—even in combination with the NDP. If anything, I suspect they would be at pains to prove their fiscal-conservative credentials, for fear of financial markets’ wrath.

Still, there are differences in long-term direction between the two platforms that are worth considering. Though neither party seems inclined in the short term to brake the torrid growth in health care spending, the broad brush of Tory policy is better suited to spurring the long-term productivity growth that alone can pay for it. And while the Tories’ regulation-heavy approach to reducing greenhouse gas emissions is in principle more costly, per megatonne, than the Liberals’ cap and trade scheme, the overall costs are likely to be less: because the Liberals are likely to bungle their plan, and because the Tories are unlikely to pursue theirs. Sensible policy will await the return of a carbon tax to political respectability.

So that’s the economy. And on democracy? Here the choice is starker—not because I invest any great hopes in the Liberals, but because the Tory record is so dreadful. To be sure, they introduced the Accountability Act on taking office: incomplete, loophole filled, but progress nonetheless. And they have made fitful efforts to reform the Senate, when not packing it with their own strategists, fundraisers and toadies.

But the long train of offences against democratic and parliamentary principle—from proroguing Parliament, twice, to evade Parliament’s reach; to withholding documents essential to parliamentary oversight, even in defiance of Parliament’s explicit demands; to intimidating parliamentary officers and politicizing the bureaucracy; to such breaches of trust as the Emerson and Fortier appointments, the taxation of income trusts, and the evisceration of their own law on fixed election dates—are simply unforgivable.

Add to that the coarse, vicious brand of politics, the mindless partisanship for which the Tories have become known: equal parts terrorizing their own MPs and demonizing their opponents. And add to that the extreme centralization of power in the Prime Minister’s Office, the trivialization of even cabinet posts as sources of independent authority, never mind the barracking of committees . . . Enough.

But much of this went on when the Liberals were in office, too, didn’t it? Yes. That’s just the point. To compare the Harper Tories to the Chrétien Liberals, and to the Mulroney Tories before them, and to the Trudeau Liberals before them, is hardly to excuse them: quite the opposite. The decline of democratic politics may have begun under the Liberals, but it has continued under the Tories. And it will accelerate if there is no price to be paid at the ballot box for such behaviour.

And yet, although the Liberals have tried to make accountability an issue in this election, they have signally failed. Does this mean the public has spoken? Perhaps once again I’ve attached too much importance to a single issue, at the expense of the big picture.

I don’t think so. The Liberals never gave the public much reason to translate their misgivings about the Conservatives into votes for them: a particular imperative, given their own record in office. It’s not enough just to implore people to “rise up.” You have to give them some hope that things will get better. But instead of the sort of large, concrete, attention-grabbing proposals that would really stamp the issue on the public mind, the democratic reform chapter of the Liberal platform is notably thin: reform of question period, a study of online voting, a vague nod to empowering committees.

So I will continue to make the case that we have a duty to perform as voters. Any election is in part a trial of the incumbents. Do we, the jury, find them guilty or not guilty, in this case of offences against democracy? And if we find them guilty, there has to be a penalty.

But what about the economy? In punishing the government, do we risk punishing the country? No. Economies have enormous recuperative powers: as Adam Smith said, “there is a great deal of ruin in a nation.” We can afford a period of Liberal silliness. What we cannot afford is the continuing slide of Parliament, and parliamentary democracy, into disrepair. Conventions once discarded, habits of self-government once lost, are much harder to regain.

If we return the Conservatives with a majority, if we let all that has gone on these past five years pass, then not only the Tories, but every party will draw the appropriate conclusions. But if we send them a different message, then maybe the work of bringing government to democratic heel, begun in the tumult of the last Parliament, can continue. And that is why I will be voting Liberal on May 2.

Bookmark and Share
  • Gillian

    Bravo Mr. Coyne!
    I am not a very religious person, but I am praying that there are enough people like myself, and what would seem to be the preponderance of Canadians who've responded to Mr. Coyne's exquisitely thoughful article, who feel that that there is much at stake for Canada if the Conservatives are rewarded for their ruthlessness.

    I agree with those who point out the need for electoral reform, but we must act on our best principles within the constraints of the current system. If the goal is to chasten Mr. Harper, then each of us must make this decision seriously, and vote for the local candidate most likely to thwart Mr. Harper's coveted majority.

  • LeDa88

    Andrew,

    A majority government is the only sane option. The only party with a national footprint to claim this is the Conservatives. The political games will go away and the government can get on with doing it's job and not have to worry about another "scandal" created from dissatisfaction from some opposition muckraker committee leader. You state that the Conservatives are the choice for the economy, but seem to forget what majority government brings – the end of the political games and one up man ship – it was never just Harper alone doing this. If Harper is the guy for the economy. he's also the guy for PM with a majority. To say otherwise just tells me you are looking for a reason to say vote Liberal. That's why I rarely watch the panel you participate on because your decision is already made. There is really no objectivity, you are all pulling in the same direction.

  • OkrdSod

    I admire the thought that has gone into this article and I dearly wish that all voters would give the election one tenth of this consideration. (I talked to someone last week who didn't know her candidates, couldn't abide Harper (her words) and felt that her only option was Conservative!)
    Where I do take issue with Coyne is with regard to the Conservative record on the economy; while they certainly talk up a good line and take credit for "guiding us through the recession", I would counter that it was due to the previous Liberal government that they were able to do so. Harper in opposition wanted to allow our banks to do the same as the Americans. Fortunately, even if not for the best reasons, Paul Martin and Jean Chretien did not allow that (The fact that Chretien kept us out of Iraq and gave Conrad Black to the English also endears him to me).
    When Harper gave away the budgetary surplus (2%GST cut), he effectively hampered our ability to deal with the recession and instead of a small budget deficit we now have a massive one.
    Additionally, the implication that any kind of coalition is either illegal, or immoral (or in todays news, the refusal to say that he would accept the GG's decison to ask another party to form a government) and indeed suggesting that the only options are Conservative majority or a coalition, is indicative of disturbing arrogance. Of course the fact that Harper attempted to try to form a coalition government himself in 2004 is another matter entirely!
    It is sad that most voters intentions are guided by headlines and carefully tailored half truths, rather than any serious consideration of the facts.
    Personally I will not be voting for any of the three major parties, the Conservative incumbent here is a shoo in, so I shall be voting for the fiscally conservative, socially conscious Green party, which brings me to a final point; it is long past the time for electoral reform. We need to embrace some form of proportional representation and cooperative parliaments, not the current blind partisanship.

  • John Palermo

    My problem with Harper is he is more interested in the GAME of Politics then the job of Governing. Even though i don't want another minority, i hope thats what we get so we can be rid of him once and for all. He has been a descent leader thus far on certain issues, but his continuing gamesmanship has left me wanting greatly. Having said all this, i will be voting Conservative because i like my riding candidate whom i hope defeats the ndp incumbent, a party of which i have no use for. Thank you Andrew for a very good article and i am happy to see someone whom i beleive to be more right of center put the Country ahead of the Party or ideology.

    • http://twitter.com/arlasko @arlasko

      So Andrew Coyne basically makes his decision based on the five past years, well I would like to remind him of the $4o million worth of reasons the Liberals should not be returned the keys to our wallets. None of the Conservative transgressions add up to the complete disregard for Canadians as AdScam did!

      • Orange You Glad?

        That's why we should vote NDP.
        And if they prove themselves unworthy, well, then we can vote independants next time.
        Fie on all parties.

      • Heck

        Really? Adscam as opposed to lying to the house, the perversion of the Statscan debate, wilfully misrepresenting the advice of senior beaucrats, the extreme centralization in PMO, the explicit ignorance of 150+ years of governing principles that underlie a Westminister-approach… talk about missing the forest for the trees…

        If its 40$ million you are worried about, how about the extreme partisanship (e.g. the conservative cheque) that governed the allocation of infrastructure funding or the G20…

        Liberals are not saints, with plenty of nastiness in their closet, but you also can’t ignore the contempt with which the Conservatives have treated the principles and processes that define governance in Canada. Democracy is an inconvenience…

    • Ian MacLeod

      Your analysis and conclusions closely parallel my own.

      It is a cop out to not vote because they are all lying (on the record, probably true) or all the same (not, once in power) or none "inspires us". If none “appeals to us”, we still (very thankfully) have choices – local person, party, policies, leaders (too bad, but in Canada all tied into a single vote). Or maybe vote: 1 for “least bad”, 2 “strategically”, 3 based on party philosophy or 4 based on whom is "owed". Party philosophy and whom they “owe” (big business, big labour, religious groups, city or rural folks, etc.) predicts well what they will do once in power. If that almost guaranteed direction bothers us, we must vote for someone else. But we still have the choice, and must exercise it.

  • elainewillis

    I disagree with your conclusion. I enjoy your thought processes. I am not voting Green but want you to note that fiscally they are quite conservative (note the small "c") so perhaps some of your premises are based on faulty information. NDP not ready to govern – I beg to differ as do many other Canadians – young, old and women. Government must be transparent and MUST serve the people. I think that the NDP has demonstrated transparency and WILL serve the people. Anything But Conservative – the ABC wave is the voice of disaffected voters.

  • brad

    All the work he put into this you have to be kidding. He basically flipped a coin and chose the lesser of two evils. There is absolutelly no insight in this waste of my time. Just like the politicians no substance. What are the platforms and why should i pick one over the other. Its news harper trashes principles of democracy

  • walkertalker

    So much thought for one bold little X. Thank you, thank you for your wonderful dissection of the thinking voter's dilemma this election. I might have been surprised had I skipped to the end and read your final decision, but you actually call every party on every thing we shd have a problem with, and weighed them out so fairly. Well done. I agree with sending the message over Harper's escalating Parliamentary abuses, as the issue that trumps the rest. As for scandals, there is junk in every party. The sins of past Liberals should not cowl this new crop. They are patriots, if not the slickest lot.

  • medererobert

    Way to make them pay Canada!.. oh wait…

  • Robert Long

    To those who argue against my contention that the CBC is biased against the conservatives, what about this. Most defenders of the CBC will admit that Herbert and Gregg of the "At Issue" panel are left wingers, but they point to Coyne as proof that the CBC has at least one Conservative supporter.

    So much for that contention.

    That makes if a sweep for the "At Issue Panel" to go along with Milewski, McKenna, Weston, Solomon, etc.

    I suppose CBC thinks Don Cherry balances it all out.

    I don't begrudge Mr. Coyne his opinion. I do find fault with taxpayer funded CBC promotion of that opinion to the exclusion of the opposing opinion. When Taxpayer money is used to promote only one side of the political argument, it's about the biggest threat to democracy you can get.

  • Anonymous

    I, as a conservative fund raiser, can say confidently that they will maintain their campaign until the next election.

  • Very old person

    And, cue heads 'asploding..

  • guest

    You limited your own choice by dismissing NDP – I just have to say this: NDP is a viable alternative for those of us sick and tired of status quo. Liberals and Conservatives are one and the same at this point. And even then, if we had to choose between the two (and I'm GLAD the polls show we don't have to), Liberals would be a much more conscientious choice, from a values stand point. Liberals = education, healthcare, democracy vs. Conservatives = tough on *unreported* crime, undemocratic, war-obsessed.

  • http://farnwide.blogspot.com/ Steve V

    "If we return the Conservatives with a majority, if we let all that has gone on these past five years pass, then not only the Tories, but every party will draw the appropriate conclusions"

    And therein lies the bottomline consideration. Should this behaviour be rewarded with a stronger mandate, then every other party will rightfully conclude that it is the template path to power.

  • OriginalEmily1

    Thank you for this.

    Above all else, democracy must go on.

  • Phil_King

    I guess it's just that for those who are serious about the actual working of government, the fact that the NDP has so few candidates that are truly ready to fill cabinet positions is a serious problem.

    I think Harper essentially had the same problem. If you don't have a few dozen seasoned MPs who can run the massive portfolios of government, you end up having to centralize your governing structure, which leads to a lack of independent decision making and a lot of micromanagment.

    In part I think the CPC ended up being so negative and controlling because they just didn't have enough competent people to fill all the neccesary rolls. As a result, the PMO was crushed with too much responsibility and ended up with a war mentality in terms of dealing with the volume of incoming issues that needed responding to on a daily basis.

    I really believe we would've seen an entirely different CPC government, one closer to its roots, if not for this. Harper had to carry the whole damn thing himself, more or less, and it turned him into someone I could never vote for.

  • Xavier

    Layton has had 5 years to gather a competent slate of local riding NDP candidates. Instead, he has the freaks from "Table 9" from the "Wedding Singer" running for him.

    Nothing against Jack personally, but I'll park my vote with award winning authors, artists, academics and scientists running for the Liberal party.

    Not too many people are comfortable voting for "sideburns" lady….regardless of whether she has Jack's name on her campaign sign.

  • s_c_f

    I don't think that the Liberals would provide any improvement for your "democracy"-based vote. In opposition, they've never given any indication that they would do any better. In fact, I think they would be worse than the Tories.

    When it comes to the prorogue, I suppose you are saying you would have preferred to see the coalition take power. I find that utterly bizarre, but that seems to be what you're saying.

  • JamesHalifax

    The partisan bickering and fighting we've seen over the last 5 years can be attributed to the fact that the Liberal party hasn't yet gotten over the fact that Canadians didn't elect them.

  • Yanni

    I am rather disappointed with the conservatives, and the brutalizing of the opposition has become rather counter-productive. As well, I agree that it has crossed from not respecting the opposition MP's (which I can tolerate) to not respecting the institutions of Parliament (which I shouldn't).

    Sure, I cheered it on in the beginning, memories fresh of growing up with people denouncing my kith and kin as being extremists, racists, ignorant, uneducated, and bigoted. It was cathartic having been marginalized and derided for so long to finally able to give some of the abuse back. But in the end it has to be put away and you have to make peace with the people you hate. The Liberals and the NDP never rebuilt their blue collar and rural base because they also refuse to reach out to the people they despise and so have been kept from power. If the Conservatives can't reach out and mend fences with those they dislike, they will never be rewarded with power either.

    But I have to admit it is too late for me. I will never vote for the NDP or the Liberal party, because the bridges have been permanently and forever burnt. The smear campaigns of the 90's against an entire demographic of Canada because they decided to vote for the Reform party. The support of the Canadian Wheat Board over farmers who simply want to sell wheat and malt barley like they sell all their other crops, merely because of the perception of the intellectual superiority of bureaucrats over farmers themselves. The continued exploitation of Alberta for its money, but the demonization of Alberta for how it earns its money along with the casual acceptance of the fact that its right to ruin Alberta's economic interests if it helps other regions. The statement that people who have religious values aren't allowed to express those values politically, or else they are betraying democracy.

    No, the left made it personal first when they demonized people for daring to build a party that expressed their political needs and desires. I haven't got the forgiveness in me to do it.

  • Thwim

    They may not, and Andrew acknowledges that.
    What it does do, however, is send a message to all the parties that "This type of behavior is unacceptable to us," and leaves the supposition of what "might" happen in the future.

    To me, that's sensible voting. Judge on the evidence available first and foremost. Only when those are in balance or demonstrably non-applicable should we really start basing decisions on suppositions.

  • Thwim

    Do listen to yourself. He had to keep his MPs quiet because he could get voted out. Are his MPs all that stupid? If that's the case, why on earth would we want more of them in majority control?

    And how, incidentally, did a minority government cause the Rights & Democracy fiasco? He had total control of who was appointed.

    How did a minority government force him to appoint Michael Fortier to Senate and Cabinet in direct opposition to what he said he'd do?

    How did a minority government force him to give away a billion dollars of our lumber industries money to their competitors in the US?

    How did a minority government force him to spend on gazebos? Or lie about what the auditor general said? Or about what the PBO said?

    And even if a minority government *did* force him to do all those things.. shouldn't there be some things that you just don't do even if it means taking a hit to your popularity?

  • YYZ

    Two points: Your assessment that the Liberals might not be better on democracy is fair. I don't agree but hey, neither of us can know for certain.

    Point 2: Harper had the option to face the house and win or a lose a confidence vote. That would not necessarily have formed a coalition, and even if it did, would have been legal and in accordance with the law.

    I thought the coalition was a terrible idea too. But Harper had a choice other than to use a procedural tool for political gain.

  • Penny

    Conservatives themselves have suggested that Harper's brass knuckle tactics will disappear as long as he gets the majority he so covets. History has showcased other political bullies who made the same sort of promise. Appeasing them didn't work, and it won't work with Harper.

  • s_c_f

    I agree with both of your comments. I feel that Coyne is voting for the exact opposite of what he says he wants. I've never seen any indication that the Liberals would not perform the same "offenses against democracy". In fact, I do recall Coyne going bonkers when Paul Martin ignored a no-confidence vote the last time the Liberals were in power. I also recall numerous instances in the last parliament where the Liberals' behaviour in opposition was even more deplorable than the Tories behaviour in government.

  • Phil_King

    You know what I'm hearing?

    "Awwww mom he/she started it!"

    I'm not impressed with the lot of them, but trying to pretend that Harper only went so bloody nasty because he was somehow bullied into it, is utterly ridiculous.

    You don't stage an endless media war to destroy the image of your main opponent, and then try to claim innocent.

    Are you in denial or something?

  • s_c_f

    "send a message to all the parties"

    I don't see how he is doing that. Voting for the Liberals is not voting for an improvement in democratic principles, because the Liberals were just as bad, and in some cases worse, than the Tories. If anything, the NDP showed more democratic principle when Layton allowed the free vote on the gun registry (although Pat Martin's behaviour in committees is probably the worst amongst all the parties).

  • Phil_King

    Except that we threw the Liberals out based on their actions and they've languished since.

    Now we're passing judgement on the latest government, and one that promised to be more principled.

    Have they been? Gaaawd no.

    So we need to throw these bums out just like we did the last ones.

    Of course it would be ideal if we could vote a third party and shun them both, but does anyone in the know really think the NDP can staff a cabinet with competent people?

  • danby

    Voting for the Liberals is not voting for an improvement in democratic principles

    And rewarding the Conservatives with a majority is an endorsement for their utter disregard for democratic principles.
    Pushing all the excuses aside, if the Conservatives had shown a higher degree of conduct in their approach to governing, they would be looking at multiple majorities by now. They could not have faced weaker opposition than those of 2008 and 2011, but their conduct turns a lot of people off.
    You can hail Stephen Harper's genius all you like, but the man is polarizing. The only thing standing between my being open to voting Conservative is Stephen Harper. I will not even consider it until he is gone – and I am not alone.

  • former_ADB

    "I also recall numerous instances in the last parliament where the Liberals' behaviour in opposition was even more deplorable than the Tories behaviour in government."

    Please share?
    (remember, the LAST parliament)

  • Phil_King

    You might want to reread that comment. It went from wise and mature to bitter and hateful so slowly, I almost didn't notice until I got to the end.

    I respect the insight of first guy, but just feel sympathy for the second.

    All issues can be worked out if we can let go of past inequities.

  • catherine

    Yanni you should get over it for your own good. On one hand, I can empathize. I feel disenfranchised by Harper who seems to hate anyone who is either big or small l liberal and I imagine he would likely be happier if we were all disappeared. However, whenever Harper is gone, if there is a new CPC leader who focuses more on what he wants than what or who he doesn't like, I'm certainly not going to continue hold it against the party that they once had a leader who divided Canadians.

    Mixing politics and religion is not good though. Politicians using religion to get votes is really distasteful.

  • Mike T.

    I am a little concerned to be reaching a conclusion similar to Coyne's for similar reasons.

  • excanuck

    and so must motherhood and the 5-day week.

  • Atchison

    Suck it Emily! This is democracy! Four more years! Four more years! Four more years!

  • Yanni

    I appreciate the sympathy.

    But to let go of the past inequities, the other person has to be willing to change. If you were an MP, would you vote to make the Canadian Wheat Board voluntary? To let farmers vote with their feet to escape a corrupt and unnecessary organization which costs them money? Or would you assume that farmers need the hand of pseudo-public servants to have a monopoly control on marketing their grain, because farmers are unable to determine their own economic interests? Or more cynically, would you vote against making the wheat board voluntary merely to preserve pseudo-public service jobs in Winnipeg and because your party leader says so?

    It is such a minor issue, one of absolutely no importance to urban voters in the slightest. A day for you after the Wheat Board would be exactly the same as the day before. But it stays in place because of bigotry and contempt.

    How can we work out our issues if that's the relationship we have?

  • Plain Old Anon

    All issues can be worked out if we can let go of past inequities

    Depends on whose issues you're speaking of, that of western Canadian Conservative supporters, or NDP and Liberal supporters based in central Canada.

  • Yanni

    Also, the real reason you liked the first paragraph is because I agreed with you. That's the only reason you found it insightful. I have strong doubts that you think anything has to change for those who are left of center.

    I've never met anybody left of center who thinks they have anything to learn from a guy like me. They are the most progressive people in society after all, and those who think differently than them are regressive. They never have to learn from anyone about how to think or act.

  • KeithBram

    Bingo!

  • s_c_f

    That doesn't make any sense.

    Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results.
    Albert Einstein

    If every time you "throw the bums out" nothing changes, then clearly the solution does not address the problem. In fact, like I said, I would expect things to be worse with the Liberals in charge.

  • KeithBram

    if the Conservatives had shown a higher degree of conduct in their approach to governing, they would be looking at multiple majorities by now. They could not have faced weaker opposition than those of 2008 and 2011, but their conduct turns a lot of people off.

    Full marks, danby! You got it exactly right.

  • s_c_f

    I completely disagree. The only reason the Conservative did not win a majority is: the BQ. It's extremely difficult to win a majority of seats when 50 of the seats are directed to a separatist party that runs in only one region of the country. It's simple mathematics. The only reason Chretien did it is because he had essentially no organized opposition.

    If you subtract those 50 separatist seats, then you end up with the requirement that to get a majority, you need to win 60% of the remaining seats.

    If you remove the province of Quebec from the equation (75 seats), then the 2008 election resulted in a majority by a wide margin, and both 2004 and 2006 the winner was just a scant 3 seats short of a majority.

  • Holly Stick

    How many NDP MPs do you actually know anything about?

  • Thwim

    That's very nice, dear. Now perhaps you could address what I said. How on earth can you claim it is the Liberals harming democracy given it was the CPC that has done the things I listed above?

    I'm hoping your argument is something more than "They didn't sit down and shut up like good Conservative supporters do!", because, well.. they're not conservative supporters. Kind of by definition. That's why they call them "the opposition".

    And seriously, the MSM never accepted the last two elections? Despite the overwhelming majority of media outlets endorsing the CPC? You do realize we're talking about reality, correct? Not just the voices in your head?

  • Thwim

    Really? We threw them out last time for hiding information from parliament that parliament demanded? We threw them out for proroging to avoid confidence votes?

    No. We threw them out for adscam.

    Well, so far as we're aware, adscam hasn't recurred. Seems like it worked last time.

  • Phil_King

    So you admit your own insantiy by voting for the same guys currently in power who've done nothing but show their disrespect for democracy.

    From the firing of Linda Keen and intimidation of what are supposed to be independent overseers, to the illegal spending of tens of millions in Clement's riding, to witholding and hiding information from Parliament on a whole host of issues, to purposefully misquoting the Auditor General in a minority report, to abusing the proroguing procedures, to ignoring their own election laws, etc etc etc.

    Jesus, I've lost count of the means and ways this party has abused and neglected the principles and procedures of our way of life.

    Good god man, pull your head out!

  • s_c_f

    Adscam hasn't recurred because the Liberals are in opposition. If you want another adscam, but them back in charge.

  • Thwim

    Different liberals. Again, you've gone from evidence to supposition.

  • Thwim

    How will your argument hold when the NDP takes those seats?

  • Phil_King

    Are you cracked? You realize those seats don't disappear right? Someone's sitting there one way or another.

    Or is your theory that this portion of the populace which has routinely voted progressive for three generations, is suddenly going to vote CPC if they don't vote BLOC?

    Your logic is astounding.

  • Jenahlin

    Dont confuse the Harper haters with facts

  • s_c_f

    Yes, on both counts it is just a matter of opinion then. We disagree on point 1, and we acknowledge that it's really impossible to know, there is no proof available either way.

    On point 2, yes, he could have faced a confidence vote, but of course, seeing as how the three opposition parties had already signed their coalition document, the outcome of a no-confidence vote was essentially a foregone conclusion. Sure, it's a valid opinion that Harper should have allowed the coalition to take power, an opinion you seem to share with Coyne, but one that I don't share. The prorogation maneouvre was also legal and in accordance with law.

  • s_c_f

    There are a million examples:
    -the NDP plotting to form a coalition government BEFORE the 2008 election took place
    -Dion explicitly ruling out a coalition during the 2008 campaign and then forming one two weeks after the election
    -the false communion wafer attack
    -the false attack regarding suuad mohamud
    -false accusations of torture against the government
    -false accusations on numerous other matters
    -using committees to launch partisan attacks rather than conduct government business
    -voting the government in contempt for differences of opinion in accounting procedures
    -shameless pursuit of power by threatening no confidence votes on false pretenses (eg voting no confidence because the government will not raise EI benefits)
    -using private members' bills to force the government's hand on spending matters (a violation of parliamentary rules), as for instance on the Kyoto accord (and there were other occasions as well)
    -refusing to show up for votes in the house (the Liberals actually LEFT the house on numerous occasions to AVOID votes)
    -forcing a whip on votes for private members bills (against parliamentary custom in Canada), Ignatieff did this on the gun registry vote
    -attacking the government for things which the opposition voted in FAVOUR of (eg the corporate tax reductions)

    etc etc

  • gottabesaid

    I wonder how many endorsements we're going to hear that are along the same lines as this… half-hearted. The Globe seemed half-hearted. The Economist seemed half-hearted. This one seemed half-hearted.

    I think, on the 'democracy' file, Harper has been positively dreadful. Just like those who came before. And, if the Liberals did replace Harper, I'm confident we'd get more the same (because, as Coyne points out, other than vague promises the Liberals aren't promising to do anything differently, and their own record is piss-poor.)

    I'm looking forward to a major newspaper, columnist, etc., saying 'none of the above.' What we've seen happening to parliament for the past few decades is horsesh*t. Call it for what it is. Demand better. We want competent government. We want a government that isn't going to take democratic short cuts. Why the hell should we have to choose one or the other?

    I'm voting for the best candidate in my riding. But if I were voting based on national campaigns, platforms or performance, I'd decline my ballot. The horsesh*t continues.

    Get that new party fired up, Coyne.

  • Ian

    None, of course, but when has that ever stopped the establishment media from telling Canadians that the social democrats are “not ready to govern”?

    Compare:

    Baird vs Mulcair
    McKay vs Dewar
    Kenney vs Chow
    Oda (“not”!) vs Nash
    Guergis (for god’s sake) vs anyone

    Oh, yeah, the Tories were oh so ready to govern, but the NDP are clearly airheads, it’s just perennial common sense in the world inhabited by Coyne et al

  • Phil_King

    "…The prorogation maneouvre was also legal and in accordance with law…"

    I meaningless statment. He broke the very spirit of the prorogue procedure. The fact that there is no law or punative price for abusing it does not mean that what he did was right or principled.

    The point of the prorogue precedure is to formally end a sitting session in which all the current legislation under consideration has been dealt with. It allows for a break before a new sitting starts, in which new legislation is brought forward.

    No Prime Minister should be able to use such procedures to avoid a confidence vote. Not ever.

  • Phil_King

    Yanni: "I appreciate the sympathy. But to let go of the past inequities, the other person has to be willing to change."

    Naturally it's a two way street.

    I don't feel qualified to comment in detail on the Wheat Board, Dairy Board or any other such board.

    I will say this though: On one hand it seems like a good way for small producers to team up to negotiate against multi-national firms for the best price, but then it should never be something forced on a producer.

    Seems to me it should be an opt in or opt out deal.

    Beyond that my ignorance overwhelms my ability to debate it.

  • Jenahlin

    I the Liberals form the government, they plan to help the west even more, with their carbon tax.

  • s_c_f

    Do you seriously expect me to conduct a serious debate with someone who says "are you in denial" and "awww mom he/she started it"? LOL

  • s_c_f

    I repeat, the prorogation maneouvre was also legal and in accordance with law. If the statement were meaningless you wouldn't feel the need to debate it. The statement is true. Both the coalition two weeks after an election they lost during which they denied they would form a coalition, and the ensuing prorogation, both were legal, and both were in violation of the spirit of our customs.

  • Phil_King

    No actually I was referring to: "But in the end it has to be put away and you have to make peace with the people you hate."

    It's true, insightful and will get one further in life then any host of negative comments or angry feelings.

    I would suggest that your stereotyping of what you thought was my position was, is no better than the stereotyping you've seen about what you consider your position to be.

    I grew up in Trenton Ontario. I'm the first person in our family to get a University degree, and proud of it.

    None of that makes me a lefty or any other damn label. I'm a person, and I'll vote for the party with the best ideas whose given me a reason to believe they're halfway honest and halfway competent and wholly earnest about respecting the people.

    This time that's Liberal, like it or lump it, because I don't think Layton has a cabinet ready, and clearly one man can't do that job alone.

  • s_c_f

    Sorry, but I'm done with you. Learn how to debate someone with respect.

  • Phil_King

    Buddy you lost the ability to claim the high ground years ago.

    I've had so many one line comments from you that amounted to little more than "you're wrong you stink" I've lost count.

    If you dish it, be prepared to take it.

    And for the record, what was it you thought I was asking you to pull your head out of?

    The clouds? The sand? Something more creative? LOL

    Just curious. I find self identification fascinating.

  • Patchouli

    A bit rich coming from one of the most disrespectful, partisan and unthinking commenters here.

    You should learn to debate. Period.

  • Yanni

    That's all you really need to know. So if you were an MP, would you vote to allow a voluntary CWB?

  • come again

    The biggest one that they full executive power over is the Census. Spending more money to get less good information. It can only mean facts aren't wanted. Ideology is a pretty ugly thing.

  • Leo

    350 members of the press gallery looking for anything to report so they can feed 24 hour news channels and blogs leads to crap journalism, i.e. wafergate.

    Rights & Democracy were funding radical Palestinian NGOs Al-Haq and Al Mezan.

    Michael Fortier to Senate and Cabinet strengthend Montreal's regional representation and didn't change the Tories' plans for an elected senate.

    Liberals had over six years to do something about the softwood lumber treaty.

    Huntsville was to host the G8 and the G20 – security and logistics forced the G20 to Toronto in Sept. 2009 when Muskoka projects were already underway.

    Popularity has nothing to do with it – a minority government is always in a position of weakness and the fact Harper has the longest running one says it all.

  • Phil_King

    As I said, I can't understand why it isn't already voluntary. It's pretty darn fascist to force people into what is essentially a union. And I say that despite having a favourable opinion on unions in general.

    So I guess that's a long winded way of saying yes. LOL

  • OriginalEmily1

    If you hold democracy in so little regard that you can make mock of it, that says more about you than anything else.

  • Thwim

    I tend not to include the census in this particular list because, as boneheaded as the move is, there can be some argument made that it's an action the CPC constituents desired.

  • Patchouli

    Pretty sure no one here expects a serious debate from the likes of you.

  • excanuck

    so who's mocking democracy? Look in the mirror.

  • Ndpvoter

    You must really think very little of Rick Mercer then

  • OriginalEmily1

    You make as bad an American as you did a Canadian….now return to the topic. I'm not it.

  • s_c_f

    Nice drive-by Patchouli. Stay classy. To you (and many others), being conservative is disrespectful. As for this particular debate, I've been very respectful to all of you and I don't like Phil King's disrespectful ad-hominems. If you want to learn to argue your side respectfully, take a lesson from danby or YYZ.

  • http://halooverride.blogspot.com/ Halo_Override

    According to Tony "One Letter" Clement, at any rate.

  • OriginalEmily1

    Mercer makes fun of politicians, not democracy.

  • LeDa88

    Rick Mercer is a bad comedian.

  • Ndpvoter

    He makes fun of the state our democracy has been brought to by politicians (and the public), as he rightly should.

  • s_c_f

    Here's a Norman Spector article from 2009 expressing the same opinion as mine: http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/politics/seco…

    According the article, Ignatieff is "better than this – much better", but in reality nothing changed from then til now.

  • s_c_f

    I'm actually in the process of debating this issue with several (respectful) individuals. Go back to your Liberal war-room and have yourself a witch-burning with your friend Phil.

  • Holly Stick

    Ass

  • Holly Stick

    Plenty of corruption in Harper's minority government like Harper's close policy advisor getting millions of taxpayers' dollars to waste on PR for filthy Big Oil.
    http://thetyee.ca/News/2011/04/27/CarsonOilSands/

  • Holly Stick

    You are a vicious little prick and should stop whining that people are showiing their disgust with your own behaviour. Grow up.

  • s_c_f

    Another conservative-hater shows up. Quelle surprise. Funny how your type likes to join the end of a debate so you can hurl your own insults – such a valuable contribution. Stay classy. You should join Patchouli and Phil. Bring your torch and pitchfork.

  • GUEST

    Yet excanuck's citizenship is?

  • shout out

    Andrew….you and Rex Murphy would/should become a regular dialogue/debate tag team….wouldn't it be nice if Rex could echo and advertise your discerning discourse (whether or not he chooses to vote likewise) on his CBC "Point of View"…who knows, maybe he might(!) I'm also voting Liberal….mainly as an anti-Harper vote.

  • Mark

    There's an Einstein quote up a few threads you should read. Your style of repeating yourself over and over even when your argument is completely absurd is very annoying.

  • s_c_f

    I don't know what you mean. Anyway, I've already talked about that. The NDP can do no better, because taking those seats required that they take on BQ policies. Eventually the ROC will discover this. http://www2.macleans.ca/2011/04/28/a-price-must-b…

  • Jenahlin

    Give me a break. Have the Liberals paid back the Adscam money?
    I feel the libneral scandals, are far worse then having a coalition of power hungry enemies finding you in contempt.

  • Mummer2

    The Liberals were punished by the voters Jenahlin…now it looks like the Cons will be too.

  • Thwim

    Yes it does. How does that lessen what I said? It's pretty damn simple to keep your nose clean if you have a modicum of intelligence.

    You obviously have no clue what I'm referring to. Look up Paul Wells' series on it.

    Didn't change their plans? It only went directly against what Mr. Harper himself had been saying. 100% reversal on his first day of office. Basically, it was notice to Canada that nothing Mr. Harper says can be trusted.

    Yes, and they did what they SHOULD have.. they let it continue through the NAFTA process without paying off the competitors. You're actually trying to defend Harper's interference in the market here?

    Which is why they built Gazebos in places no person from the G8 or G20 was likely to ever go. Gotcha.

    And once again, shouldn't there be some things that you take the hit for?

  • Thwim

    I'd love to see a paper endorse the No Incumbents! strategy.

    "We can't, in good conscience, endorse anybody this election — none of them deserve it. So instead we are endorsing every candidate who is not already in office. Re-elect nobody"

  • Robert G. Lake

    Good choice. Too bad you seem reluctuant to highlight it in your title. Perhaps intimidated by the nasty Conservative culture at Maclean's.

  • Don H

    Liberal or Conserative. All are the same,it is the power they want!We the People serve the Government . It should be the Government serves the People!Every little groupSeems to get there way. I say less Government and more will get done bt the People. Let us take pride in Our accomplishments. Not the accomplishments of the Government, Who in Mt opinion are becoming more and more Socialist.

  • phusis

    A vote for Libs in Saanich-Gulf Islands is a vote for Con incumbent, Gary Lunn. Vote strategically non-Con. In Saanich-Gulf Islands this means vote Green for Elizabeth May.
    http://www.projectdemocracy.ca

  • OriginalEmily1

    Actually it's futureshock, mixed in your case, with mad cowboy disease.

From Macleans