Colby Cosh

Colby Cosh

Maclean’s man in Edmonton writes about everything. Follow Colby on Twitter: @colbycosh

A personal reflection on the Ignatieff Era

by Colby Cosh on Wednesday, May 4, 2011 8:05am - 278 Comments

I thought that, if for no other reason than the benefit of historians, someone really ought to record a remark on the bizarre final hours of Michael Ignatieff’s time as Liberal leader. His concession speech on the evening of May 2 was immediately praised by sympathetic journalists for its respectfulness and its reflectiveness. Few of them, probably, were watching it quite the way I was—as somebody who had money riding on the result from Ignatieff’s own riding, Etobicoke-Lakeshore. I was watching those returns like a Predator drone circling a cave full of terrorists, so I was exceedingly surprised that Ignatieff’s concession speech seemed to be predicated on him remaining, at least for a little while, as leader of a Liberal rump. He spoke as though his constituents had already invited him to be part of this new caucus, though their preference for Bernard Trottier was, by that hour, fairly apparent. Ignatieff even stressed the need for “continuity”:

I’m going to need the help of every Liberal, everyone who loves their country and loves this party, to stand with me as we rebuild and renew. I will serve as long as the party wants to make me serve, or ask me to serve, and not a day longer. This party needs the continuity, this party needs the faith to continue the work that we have done, and I am willing to serve to help us do that work of renewal, reform, and growth.

He didn’t close the escape hatch at any point, but he emphasized that his occupancy of the leadership would be up to the party to curtail. By the time he gave his speech, this was true only in a tenuous technical sense—he is the first Liberal leader to lose his seat in a general election since 1945—and Ignatieff was forced to write a humiliating cadenza to his own political career the next day.

You won’t be surprised to hear that I take this curious awkwardness, this slight off-kilterness, to be a metaphor for the whole Ignatieff experiment. (I felt the same way about his adoption of a Bruce Springsteen song as his spiritual anthem; given Springsteen’s all-American corniness, it struck me another “Oh dear, has no one told the poor man?” moment.) If you’ll pardon a moment of self-indulgence, I feel as though I’ve been standing at a level crossing, waving red flags at Liberals and anti-Tory centrists for six years; and now that the train wreck has happened, the survivors are still confused by my behaviour.

When I argued that Ignatieff’s long absence from the country was a problem—very, very carefully distinguishing my own argument from the content of Conservative attack ads—I was greeted with a chorus of “How dare you?” I was told I had no standing to criticize a man of Ignatieff’s intellectual attainments; by that standard, none of those who have been living Canadian politics for the last quarter-century had any right to speak—so how’d that argument work out? I was told that I was engaging in a “personal attack”; how’d the argument that personalities have nothing to do with election success work out? I was told that love for Canada is all that matters, and you can love it just as much from a distance as you do from the inside; how’d the lovefest turn out? This is not just idle gloating—and even if it is, maybe it is about time for Liberals to stop obsessing over the psychological motives of commentators and start listening. This is about whether the Liberal Party is capable of making use of criticism, even unfriendly or biased criticism, as advice. This is the question, fundamentally the only question, that will determine whether it has a future, if it wants one.

Ecch, that’s kind of an arrogant paragraph. Let me climb down from the high horse before I get thrown. I recognize that the Liberal Götterdammerung is as much a tragedy as a product of conscious collective error. The party took a close look at Ignatieff’s leadership qualifications, after all, and rejected him on the only occasion they had the leisure of a considered judgment. After the 2008 election, nobody could have dreamed that Stéphane Dion would look like a green giant of statesmanship in retrospect. (I had one last spasm of psephological shock on the bus home from Calgary yesterday, when I saw that Dion’s 26% national vote share—the good old days!—has dwindled to less than 19%.) Ignatieff was put in charge at a moment of crisis, and from that moment on, the Liberals really had little choice but to shout down questions about his suitability. It is not clear any alternative action would have worked out better.

But by the same token… this election could have been avoided if Ignatieff hadn’t been allowed to commit to a “Not another second of Conservative government” position on the 2011 budget. I don’t know what story Paul Wells will tell in his sprawling Making Of The Prime Minister 2011 feature, and if he disagrees with me I would strongly encourage you to take his word over mine. My information is that the Liberal high command was playing a calculated gambit by leaving the go/no-go choice on Jack Layton’s desk. They thought that a spring 2011 election was better for them than an autumn one or a 2012 one. And they thought that Layton, in any event, would probably be too ravaged by illness not to support the budget—in which case they were prepared to go out and blame him for every jot and tittle in that document. This makes sympathy for the Liberal braintrust very, very difficult.

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  • Yanni

    Yeah, corporations kicked in to Obama's campaign as well, and it was Chretien's gift to our liberty that he drastically cut the amount of funding that corporations are able to contribute to political campaigns (even if it was just to kneecap Paul Martin).

    But the amount he received from individual voters was massive, and certainly a massive increase from 2004. That is because the Democrats (and Obama's campaign in particular) worked very hard to build organizations and fundraising tactics based on Republican models.

    Have the Liberals examined how the Conservatives built their fundraising base and copied it? Do they vigorously pursue new votes, new funds, and new volunteers? No, they've neglected to replace their traditional corporate funding even though they've had three leaders since then. Why?

  • Phil_King

    I do laugh a bit when people write off the Liberals at this point I must say.

    While they've never been quite this low in the seat count, they've bottomed out a couple times in the last fifty years.

    1958: 48 seats
    1984: 40 seats

    The real question is whether they'll cave to pressure or actually get to work on rebuilding.

    • Style

      In 1958 and 1984, they'd been the government for the last twenty years (Mackenzie King through St. Laurent, Pearson through Trudeau, ). This time, they've been a declining opposition for seven. That context is important.

      • Phil_King

        I take your point, but I was merely pointing out that seat count isn't neccesarily the indicator we should be looking at, especially given how tenuous the NDP seat count really is if you look at it.

        Take away their Quebec seats (which could completely evaporate next election) and they're not doing much better than the Liberals.

        The Liberals have a lot of smart and capable people, a brand that still has value, and time to let the NDP self-destruct while they rebuild.

        Being out of the lime light can be a good thing in these cases.

        • Style

          What indicator can you look at for reassurance the Liberals can rebuild? The NDP seats in Quebec didn't just come from the Liberals – they include many seats the Liberals haven't held in twenty years. And people could use their money and smarts rebuilding the Liberal party, but they should ask themselves why those resources shouldn't be spent making the NDP a credible alternative government. Which path is most likely to benefit Canadians?

      • s_c_f

        It's not just the context or the seats. They had 28% support in '84, and 34% in '58. Now they're at 19%, Much worse. I agree they can rebound. In order to do so, they should all read Cosh' column, over and over again, until it finally sinks in. Liberals do not like advice. They don't like listening to Canadians tell them what they want, they like telling Canadians what they want. They also like power – too much. They prefer power over policies. It shows.

    • non-partisan

      Up until election night, that was exactly my response as well when people talked of the death of the Liberal party. Even people who remember the ’80s well seemed to have forgotten where the Liberals were in that decade.

      However, I now think this time could be different. Different because the Liberals are no longer the obvious alternative government. Added to their financial situation, loss of leader and lack of organization is the fact that they are now the third party in Parliament. Everything from media attention to their Ottawa offices is going to be smaller. They are going to have to do a lot more with a lot less – which doesn’t strike me as something they know how to do.

      All this is not to say that I’m sure they are gone, but I think speculation about their death is no longer unfounded.

  • Crit_Reasoning

    Excellent observations, Colby, and I say this as someone who couldn't care less about your psychological motives. Your "Ignatieffalump in the room" blog post was one of most incisive pieces I've read during this whole election, and judging by the howls of indignation it elicited from aggrieved Liberals, you obviously touched a nerve.

    Now that Ignatieff has led the Liberals to a historic, crushing defeat, maybe it's time for the punditry to acknowledge that Ignatieff's three decades abroad really were a problem, and that people who pointed this out this inconvenient fact weren't doing so out of embarrassing parochialism.

    Let's hope that the Liberals will use their time in the wilderness to recognize their "conscious collective error" and learn from the failed Ignatieff experiment.

    • Thwim

      You're confusing something being a problem with whether it should be a problem. I think most of those arguing against the Ignatieff is just Visiting meme weren't saying "this isn't a big deal" but were saying that it shouldn't be a big deal.

      Turns out, it was. I'm still not sure exactly why.

    • Dot

      Ted Morton spent three decades abroad (1949-1981). As have many new prominent Albertans. Rick George – for example. Care to tar and feather them as well?

      • Colby Cosh

        Or could it be relevant that Morton has devoted the LAST 30 years entirely to Canada? No, you're right, I don't see a difference at all. Tar and feathers for everyone!

        • Dot

          Ignatieff has much deeper roots here than Morton or Tom Flanigan have. Are you suggesting that, from 1980, the world being as isolated as it is, he has been unable to follow what's going on in Canada, he never visited or called, never discussed Canadian issues?

          Wow. Even Conrad Black, who has been holed up in a jail in the US or restricted to travels within the US was quoted by the CBC on election night on the results.

          Albertans are surprisingly provincial in their outlooks. And this reflects it. Harper never left N. America (apart from MAYBE a trip to Britain) before being elected PM, and one of his closest supporters, Gwyn Morgan, spent all of his free time hiking in the Rockies or meditating on his head before speaking out so magnanimously on national and internation issues.

          • Colby Cosh

            "Ignatieff has deeper roots here"? I don't understand: were we somehow being asked to vote for those ghosts of his dad or his grandparents? Yeah, he personally has "roots" in pre-Charter Canada, and I guess if we ever need a Prime Minister of pre-Charter Canada, he'll make a fine one.

          • Dot

            Don't you mean pre-firewall Alberta?

          • Crit_Reasoning

            Yeesh. Give it a rest, Dot. You really need to learn to walk away after you've been schooled.

          • Dot

            Listen to the guy who sat at the Macleans "The West wants In. Now what?" discussion with contentment. I thought it could have easily passed for a navel gazing question period at the Alberta Legislature.

          • Dot

            Here, for your perusal. An example of an Albertan who isn't "provincial" in my opinion. Former Shell Canada CEO Clive Mather. Compare his view of the world with, say, oilpatch blowhard Dave Yager, HSE.

            Three clips: http://watch.bnn.ca/headline/april-2011/headline-…
            http://watch.bnn.ca/headline/april-2011/headline-…

            This one is particularly interesting. Note what he says about the oil sands development: http://watch.bnn.ca/headline/april-2011/headline-…

  • Mike T.

    I've always used policy and past performance in my evaluation of politicians, with the possible exceptions of Adam Giambrone and Peter McKay (where possibly I've let one or two events overshadow my entire impression of them). The entire idea of not voting for someone based on impression seems foreign to me, the idea of revelling in it because you feel it hurt your opponent tacky.

    If I have "a lot to learn" in that area I kind of prefer to stay ignorant.

    • Stephanie

      Excellent, more Liberal condescension about how voters make their decisions. Keep that up, and you’re sure to win more votes—for the Tories and NDP.

    • SanDiegoDave

      As you noticed, self-awareness and doubt have absolutely no place whatsoever in politics.

      • Blue

        Oh Dave, does Dean know you have abandoned him for the blonde waitress ?

        • SanDiegoDave

          He IS upset. Last I heard he was back at Mom's Suzuki dealership playing with his Brio trains.

  • Crit_Reasoning

    That's certainly a factor, but I think it's pretty obvious that there's more to it than that.

    In most democracies, someone who chose to live abroad as long as Iggy did would never be considered a viable candidate for Head of Government in the first place. (Especially not someone with a "pronoun problem" who occasionally passed himself off as a citizen of the foreign country he happened to be living in at the time.)

  • WaterlooAl

    Funny thing is Iggy has been in Canada longer than some of the NDP MPs have been alive.

    • Style

      The NDP got some seven year olds elected? Amazing.

    • http://halooverride.blogspot.com/ Halo_Override

      ::rimshot::

  • Style

    Residual political sentiment doesn't sound like a great foundation for a political party. What policy goals are you trying to achieve? We have a good idea of what was achieved in the past with a strong federal NDP (CPP, Medicare), we've seen what happens when it's weak (Chretien's cuts to social programs and privatization). We have a good idea of the NDP's current priorities (pensions, health care). I can't point to a similarly clear record or agenda for the Liberal party.

    • Phil_King

      I think you're getting ahead of yourself.

      The starting point is determining whether to rebuild, or kill the party and focus on the NDP right?

      So in answer to that I've established that for a number of very significant reasons, I think it makes far more sense to rebuild the LPC, than try and make the NDP an actual credible governing alternative.

      From that point there's a heck of a lot of work to do.

      Incidentally, it's important to note that while the NDP has been successful at pushing certain agendas during minority periods, technically it was the LPC that passed all those initiatives you're talking about.

      We don't actually have any idea how the NDP would act in government. Would it even remain the same party if it did?

      There's a lot of examples to show that the stress of actually governing pushes parties to the right for obvious reasons.

      • Style

        I disagree. First, you set out your goal – the policy stance you want the federal government to take. Then, you look at the most effective and efficient way to get there – rebuild the Liberals or strengthen the NDP.

        • Phil_King

          I don't know. Seems to me policies come and go because most specific issues come and go. What matter most is people's perception of the core principles and ideals of your party.

          In this case they already exist. The LPC brand has those in place in the minds of voters.

          Changing the NDP branding would be terribly difficult. Even just shaking off the "socialist" label would take a lot of work.

          If the NDP already had a powerful political machine put together, then maybe it would be worth it, but from where I'm sitting they're really no better off and maybe worse than the LPC as it stands today.

          • Style

            What if the Liberal political machine supported the NDP instead of trying again with the Liberals? I have to disagree that most voters know the core principles and ideals of the Liberal party (what I'd call policy stance), especially since the Liberals have now run three consecutive elections as "the more popular NDP, with better cost estimates".

          • Phil_King

            Ah well there's a difference we might not be able to agree on. I don't think most people equate the LPC with the NDP at all. The LPC actually has center-right support most of the time, whereas the NDP really doesn't. Most rightwingers voting NDP do so out of distaste for the current Conservatives, but their hatred of the LPC pushes them to protest through the NDP, IMO.

            Besides, I don't think political machines are transferable in that way, because the party workers come from across the spectrum too.

            I honestly believe that a merger or any version of dissolution resulting in the removal of the LPC, will actually strengthen the CPC, rather than strengthen the left.

            It seems to me that the NDP is structurally weak, out of alignment with the average Canadian and fighting against their own history, reputation and branding.

            The Quebec vote is and has always been unpredictable and touchy at best. They've made or broken governments since confederation due to their willingness to suddenly shift their support wholesale, and the majority of the NDP caucus ballooned from there, in some cases supporting candidates who didn't even have a constituency office.

          • Phil_King

            Incidentally, the fact that they would be known by some as having "better cost estimates" goes back to my point that the LPC is already branded as fiscally responsible while the NDP still has the "socialist spendthrift" problem that drives away center-right voters.

          • Phil_King

            Anyways, cool chatting with you. You make good points, debate well and most importantly you made it easy to steer clear of the insults and innuendo.

            Seems to me that one way or another we're botth progressive types looking for a solution to the center split.

          • Style

            Yes, it's enjoyable to talk about this stuff without being called a conbot or a drunk. Thanks for the interesting conversation.

      • Style

        Your reasons for focusing on the Liberal party don't strike me as all that significant:
        - a reputation for centrist government. Is that reputation deserved? Chretien and Martin pursued policies that echoed Margaret Thatcher's (tight money, social cuts, tax cuts, privatization). If there is centrist governance in Canada, does that reflect the Liberal party or the political character of Canada? Mulroney's most contentious policies were continued by Chretien.
        - better candidates, more previous voters, branding. These are all re-statements of the Liberal party having been popular. Also, the Liberal brand has been badly damaged in Quebec and the prairies for a long time now. What hope does it have of recovering? Is that really harder than restoring the NDP brand in Ontario?
        - from a wider range of the political spectrum. Doesn't the composition of Parliament matter more than the composition of one caucus?
        - Centre-right Liberals prefer Harper to the NDP. The NDP also has voters who vacilate between the Conservatives and the NDP.

        • Phil_King

          I'm not sure I understand what you're getting at. Branding isn't something one argues, it exists or it doesn't in the minds of the average person.

          For example if you were to sample people's beliefs about which parties are good money managers, I suspect both the CPC and the LPC would garner a significant percentage, but the NDP would not.

          As far as representation of the political spectrum, generally we have majorities, if which case the remainder of parliament is essentially irrelavent, as it is now, so I think the composition of parties matters a great deal.

          The fact that the current CPC government has so much representation now from the center and center-right does in fact legitimize them far more so than when they were only center right.

  • Orson Bean

    Absolutely correct about the Liberal Party "braintrust", Colby. They gambled and it blew up in their faces.

  • Andrew (not PorC)

    So we went from the party best able to marshal corporate donors dominating to the party best able to marshal small interest groups dominating. The problems remains that money buys elections, and money is driven by small, organized and powerful groups.

    Per-vote subsidies mean that a party's interest to get as many votes as possible is aligned with their goal to get funding. Individual donations by a tiny fraction of the electorate put these goals in tension: pander to your donors at the cost of political support, or vice versa? SInce money can help to buy elections, better to pander to the donors within reason. Hence dog-whistle politics.

    I support low campaign spending ceilings, too. Being able to outspend rivals is not an advantage that should be a driving factor behind election results. It should be the degree to which the party can earn popular support. Many people seem to conflate donor support from a small group being equivalent to broad popular support.

    Per-vote subsidies gives the poor person much more equitable influence than compared to the guy who can afford to have himself, his wife, his adult children, his grandparents, etc. each donate $2000. It also makes earning each vote worthwhile, even in ridings that are safe seats.

    • Yanni

      No, the money is driven by MANY small and organized groups, most of whom aren't very powerful.

      You seem to have the idea that voters largely drift along and make their decisions based on the wider cultural "memes" and "media". As if people are blank slate that are primed to receive any message that a massive media campaign can give. I don't buy it (and I also think memetic theory and sociology in general is hogwash).

      But most people who vote know their own interests and vote to them. They might not have a party that encapsulates all of their interests and might prioritize them (ie. a union man who is an evangelical christian who votes conservative rather than NDP or vice versa).

      I also think that pandering to your donors vs. political support is a false contrast. Your donors are interested in you having political support, and if you have good campaign financing laws (like we do) then most of your political supporters will be your donors. If your supporters give you money and votes then of course you should represent them instead of "all Canadians". They are your representatives, not people you recommend for the job of ruling over you.

      I also fail to see how you can make a connection to a per-vote subsidy to a poor person. The NDP don't care about the poor, they care about government intervention in the economy. The Liberals don't care about the poor, they care about holding power because they figure they are the best suited for it. The conservatives don't care about the poor, they care about decentralization of government, libertarianism, and a tinge of social conservatism. None of them is going to massively increase welfare, guarantee an minimum income, or build facilities to combat mental illness. So what is that per-vote subsidy doing for that poor person but support an ideology that doesn't really have anything to do with his situation?

      • Andrew (not PorC)

        You're still conflating voters with donors. The vast majority of people who vote for a party have not and never will donate to it. The people who donate to a party are not a representative sample of the people who vote for it. The party is loyal to the donors, and not the people who vote for it.

        • Yanni

          Listen, the first thing the Harper government did to hurt the Liberals was reduce the upper limit of donations to political parties from 5000 to 1,100. The vast majority of the donors donate between $50-$200. This is why the Conservatives are rich, and why the Liberals are not. The Liberals have people who can donate $5000 dollars, but not people who donate $50-$200.

          The most lucrative source of income for political parties is their voters, but only if you have voters who are willing to give you money.

          The measurement of subsidized tax incentive actually gives us a guide as to how much money comes from small donations. Essentially, the conservatives have the greatest amount of benefit from the tax incentive because they have many, many donors who contribute enough to claim it, but don't earn enough that this tax credit is wasted. As the party with the largest voting share, they get the largest amount of per-vote subsidy. As the party with largest number of seats and spread across the country, they also get the lion's share of campaign reimbursements. Essentially, when all is said and done, because the conservative party has a lot of voters/donors who are one in the same, they reap the greatest reward for the incentives.

          The liberals on the other hand, have many more donors than voters, and that has pretty much led them to where they are right now. Their reliance on the per vote subsidy and their resulting neglect of collecting from middle class and lower middle class donors was the cause.

          • Andrew (not PorC)

            You're still talking past this point: the vast majority of Conservative voters have not and will never donate to the party, but the party is owned by the donors. I don't think this is good and right. Ideally, our democracy would require as little cash as possible. Money corrupts the process. The answer isn't a fundraising war between interest groups backing different horses. The answer is making money less of a determinant of election outcomes. If you reply that money doesn't play a significant role in determining election outcomes, we should be able to agree that spending limits should be lowered.

          • Yanni

            I disagree that money corrupts the process objectively. I think money has to be managed and controlled, volunteering and donating are two very vital ways you influence the political parties. Withholding money and time are a very good way to reduce the influence of a political party who betrays your interests.

            You want nothing but a per vote subsidy that largely rewards the party currently in power. Essentially then, rather than compete with voters based on how they will appeal to various interests, you essentially will reward the campaign with the slickest way of drumming up broad based support. Then when a party gains a majority, there should be no way for the populace to use private funds to match the dominant power's electoral machine.

            I'm sorry, but that's cracked and is definitely not the way towards more democratic control of the electoral process.

            As for spending limits, sure we can do that. But it is pretty much unenforceable, as the United States proves.

          • Andrew (not PorC)

            It doesn't take much money to bootstrap a party to start winning votes. Parties with a compelling proposition don't need to sell themselves too hard. See the greens. They have managed to flourish under the per-vote subsidy, which is the opposite of what you predict.

            "Essentially then, rather than compete with voters based on how they will appeal to various interests, you essentially will reward the campaign with the slickest way of drumming up broad based support."

            Realise that what you're saying is that parties ought not to be rewarded for winning greater support. Bizzaro-world stuff. You're saying that parties should appeal to small groups rather than the broad population. I'm stumped.

            "As for spending limits, sure we can do that. But it is pretty much unenforceable, as the United States proves."

            I don't see how US electoral law matters to the Canadian context. Seems like spending limits work here pretty well. Parties that push the envelope, as with in-and-out, are rightly punished. Let's lower the cap to six or seven million for the national campaigns, and ban television and radio advertising. Parties can use their donations to build feedback mechanisms like constituency offices, etc.

          • Yanni

            The Greens have flourished huh? So they increased their voter share then? Also, taking votes across the country in order to use the public funds to overtly influence one riding to elect a leader is more democratic than people donating their own money?

            As for winning broader support, the way to do that in a pure media campaign is to advertise, and most of that advertising is going to be negative. There will be almost no discussion of policy because people simply don't have the time or interest to examine each issue of the day. It would exacerbate rather than solve most of the problems you complain about.

            Plus, the other reason there won't be a discussion of policy is because actually talking about policy turns off more voters than it attracts. That's why most voters aren't given any policy during media campaigns. With only the public funding based on votes, all you are going to have is slickly marketed platitudes.

            But we're talking past each other. I think you should elect people to parliament who represents your interests. You think you should elect the best people to parliament to build a utopian society. I think using money and time is a good way to force parties to listen to their constituency and force them to craft policy that is to their benefit. You think the constituency should give their vote to the party that comes up with the best policies at election time.

            In the end you want an aristocrat and I want a servant.

          • Andrew (not PorC)

            Yes, the Green's vote share did increase. In 1993 it was 0.2%. In 1997 it got 0.4% of the national vote. In 2000, 0.8%. In 2004, 4.4%. That was the first election after the political finance reform. In 2006, they got 4.5% and then in 2008 a huge jump up to 6.8%.

            Hard to look at those numbers and conclude that the Greens did not flourish under the per-vote subsidy regime.

            I also suggest trimming the use of advertising in campaigns, and reducing spending in general, so I don't know why you're throwing that in my face. Slick marketing will be much harder with much lower media budgets and/or a prohibition on the most vapid forms of political advertising (radio/television). A way of getting broad support would be to host town-halls, knock on doors, policy manifestos etc. and talk to people about policies and visions. You're suggesting that parties bring home the bacon to interest groups to secure donations to buy the disinterested electorate: what a vision of democracy. You might like that while you're one of the courted interest groups. You might like it less when the party is pandering to public sector unions with public funds to secure donations from their members, a la Bob Rae 1990.

            I don't see where you're getting the idea that I want an aristocrat. My approach is more meritocratic than anything else.

            You don't want politicians to serve Canadians. You want politicians to serve money. Let's make this discussion moot by getting as much money out of the system as possible.

          • Andrew (not PorC)

            Furthermore, you said:

            "As for winning broader support, the way to do that in a pure media campaign is to advertise, and most of that advertising is going to be negative. There will be almost no discussion of policy because people simply don't have the time or interest to examine each issue of the day."

            In other words: Canadians in general are too dumb, indifferent or unsophisticated to care about ideas, So parties shouldn't appeal to them in general. Appeal to money first, and use the money to manipulate the drooling masses. You don't actually seem to decry the slick marketing campaigns. As long as it's funded by a small core of interest groups.

          • KeithBram

            Andrew, Yanni: thank you both for a well-reasoned, civilized debate. That's a rare thing on these boards. You both raise valid points; I'm still not sure what side of this debate I fall on, ,but you have each given me a lot to think about. I hope a lot of others take the time to read through your exchange.

  • http://halooverride.blogspot.com/ Halo_Override

    Is this a "coat of many colors" thing?

  • alfanerd

    yeah Im no expert on Bernays, i've wanted to read Propaganda (his book of that title, not actual propaganda) for a while now, but my understanding of what he's done comes from the excellent BBC doc Century of the Self.

    Since then it's been a habit of mine to evaluate commercials on how much "Bernays" they have. Beer commercials : 100% Bernays. Used car commercial (e.g. Come on down 0% interest we have huge inventory…") 0% Bernays. But political ads are 50/50. They have some actual content, but they also have the more subtle messages.

    • http://halooverride.blogspot.com/ Halo_Override

      Century of the Self is fantastic, I agree. Adam Curtis also did a great series on the CIA/Ewen Cameron mind-control experiments, the title of which escapes me at this time. (Remember the brief bit from CotS with a short-haired redheaded woman sitting on a hillside — "Linda Campbell", I think — talking about her treatment? There's quite a bit more with her, and it's really stunning. Worth looking up.)

  • Thwim

    1. Unless you don't include Alberta in the country, however, do you really think that Liberals can ever elect an MP in all areas of the nation until the NEP generation has been buried?

    2. There is a red door, and a blue door. How is that different from 'It's us or the coalition"?
    Only we can defend national unity vs Only we can defend the economy
    Only we can stop Stephen Harper vs. Only a stable majority can stop the Coalition
    We are the natural governing party of Canada I'll grant.. if you can show me where they said it. Within the last four years or so, I don't think it's been said. And if it has, then you're correct, someone needs to school the sayer against that kind of assumption.

    3. Hm. Thinking on this one more. We do see a lot of that behavior during their rallying speeches once they've lost. Is that what rebuilding means then? Forgetting a successful past? Tossing out your history when it's different from the current circumstances? Then again, maybe I'm seeing this from an isolated viewpoint, because Liberals here in Alberta certainly don't refer to the past much.. if ever.

    4. And here's where we hit the problem. Standing "for something concrete" is simply another way of saying "get an ideology and damn the facts or circumstances". That's where we came into this with me asking "Isn't simply standing for good governance enough?" Now do they need to do more of standing for good governance? Sure. Again though, I fail to see how that's a "rebuild from the ground up" as opposed to a much simpler "adjust and move forward"

    And yes, I do think a lot of the LPC concentrating on the LPC has been the circumstances. After all, when you've just lost and your supporters are unhappy, do you go, "Man, Canadians think we suck" or do you look back to your history to show them, "We've been great before.. we can be so again.." if you want to keep the supporters, the former is probably a bad idea.

    • Iccyh

      1. If the Liberals don't start making an attempt in Alberta now, they're going to lose the next generation of voters as well as the only people they'll hear from is the NDP and Conservatives. It doesn't need to be a winning strategy *right now*, but there has to be some kind of credible engagement and recognition.

      2. Conservatives vs. the coalition implicitly recognizes 4 different parties while red door/blue door recognizes two. We've got (or well, we had) 4 major parties with people who support each of them. I doubt that non-Liberal federalists or non-Liberal progressives appreciated the framing the Liberals preferred because it completely wrote off their choices as illegitimate, and painted the Liberals as their only real choice.

      I watched Alfred Apps on Power and Politics yesterday saying that he didn't believe that the election represented a massive change in what Canadians wanted. Maybe he was just saying that because it is necessary for him to say that he believes that the LPC can quickly return to their central place in Parliament, but it was unfortunate all the same.

      3. I'm perfectly willing to concede that on this point, much of the issue may have been that the campaign has effectively been on since '04 and the Liberals have been hammered repeatedly.

      4. I'll think on this one and get back to you. I've a ton of thoughts rolling through my head, but I'm a bit tired right now and need time to get them sorted.

      At some point, it has to be "man, Canadians think we suck" if those are the cards you've been dealt. Obviously, I brought up the possibility that circumstance has dictated a lot of what I've seen so I recognize that may colour my perception of things and I recognize why it has happened, but when it does it become "Canadians think we suck, what do we need to change?" as opposed to "We'll be in government next time for sure"?

      One other point I should bring up is the perpetual insider leaks and infighting that have characterized the party for the past decade. There is absolutely no way any of that has helped the party or improved people's perception of it that I can see. The impression it leaves is that the environment inside the party is toxic, it is really hard to buy into a party that won't buy into itself.

      • Thwim

        Not much to disagree with here, though I'll point out that before the Orange Crush started, was there really any other choice for who might start government? Write them off? No more than most of Canada had for all of the foregoing history.

        That said, I think you've really hit on something with that very last paragraph — and though I think that may be part of the price for trying to build a party that admits alternative viewpoints within it — it's really gotten out of control over the last several years.

        • xiv

          To add to the thoughts of choosing an ideology, when you're a party in opposition you have to give the voters some impression of what it is that you stand for. Your position on the issues doesn't have to conform to 'center', 'left', or 'right', but on each issue it does need to be consistent. You can't, for example, spend half of question period screaming about insufficient stimulus spending, and then spend the next half screaming about wasteful spending running up the deficit. They both may be valid perspectives, but you do need to pick one of them and stick with it or the public has no idea where you stand on the issue.

          When it comes to a ground up rebuild, this usually means working on expanding the base at the roots, one of the best counters i can think of to a negative campaign is thousands of party members on the ground that can talk to friends/coworkers and change their minds. This means getting involved with existing local groups, and founding your own. Listening to what they have to say, and convincing them that they're heard and have a say in your party, that when you win, they win.

          • Thwim

            No, it's entirely logical and valid to complain about insufficient stimulus spending, and then complaining that the spending that is running up the deficit was wasteful.

            Is it too much to ask, after all, for stimulus spending that is well considered, rather than things like this.

            Your second point, however, seems to make much more sense, but most people who are talking about rebuilding also mix it in with the Liberals needing much "self-reflection" — self-reflection implies that the party is going the wrong way somehow.. not just that they need to build up their base.

          • xiv

            Well quite clearly they ARE going the wrong way, if they were going the right way they wouldn't be hemorrhaging votes. Failing to build/maintain the base is part of that wrong way. Making decisions about what the key planks of your platform are going to be IS probably another part of fixing the direction, but it should be based on this new/re-energised base, because if they don't have input into the process, how can they feel they're part of it? Where does a leader fit into all this? Somewhere between those two steps i would think. There should be some idea of where the party wants to head before picking a new leader probably. But at some point the leader needs to be there to become a rallying point.

        • Iccyh

          Even if what you're saying is true I'd argue that, especially since '93, it has been really disrespectful to make that assumption.

          With regards to 4 and the last paragraph:
          I think the real reason why I'm as hot on the word "rebuild" as I am is the impression that the people who run the Liberal Party, and their close confidants, are hugely out of touch with reality. While this is in good part due to the party squabbling I've mentioned, I should also point out that the last LPC convention (which I followed, as someone who was potentially willing to move my vote) didn't convince me at all that the party was interested in serious discussion about what the LPC stood for and had to offer, but rather to simply gear up for the next election (that the Liberals would of course win) as soon as possible.

      • derek

        The power center of Canada has shifted, and the Liberals are excluded. Canada is no longer a rich manufacturing nation, it is one of resource development. If the Liberals want to be relevant, that is the word, they need a presence in Alberta, Saskatchewan and BC.

        As long as the answer is 'Conservative' to this question, they will remain irrelevant. The question: I have an idea/money and I want to be in touch with some people in the fastest growing and dynamic economy in Canada. Who from which party should I talk to?

        The answer for generations has been Liberal. Not any more.

  • http://halooverride.blogspot.com/ Halo_Override

    Yeah, I liked The Trap too…

    The one I was thinking of is The Living Dead, and it starts here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gZw8NRCPmSc
    …but now I see it's specifically Part 2 ("You Have Used Me as a Fish Long Enough") that focuses on the psych experiments.

    • alfanerd

      i'll be checkign that out. thanks.

  • Andrew (not PorC)

    Can you link to an analysis?

  • Franz

    Cosh: You are a hack. Ignatieff has more talent in one of his toenails than you will ever possess in the entire girth of your corpulent self.

    To paraphrase Bette Midler: Get some talent, then you can mouth off.

    While you're at it, try a shave and a shower. You're beginning to look like the love child of "Comic Book Guy" from the Simpsons, and "Relic" from the Beachcombers.

    • Colby Cosh

      There seem to be quite a lot of crazy people in the Maclean's commentverse who think the hair and beard IN MY PHOTO are growing. Perhaps Ignatieff should have concentrated his efforts more strongly on the crucial assisted-living and sheltered-workshop vote?

    • http://halooverride.blogspot.com/ Halo_Override

      Worst. Anti-Wherry imitation. Ever.

  • MTB

    Well, not exactly a capitalist. Capitalists don't punish the refusal to care for others in the pursuit of profit. They reward it. Jesus would send those sweatshop owners straight to hell.

  • Tony

    Welcome to the 21st century gentlemen where capitalism conquered democracy. Whoever has the money has the ability to hugely influence the public mind about who gets elected. The electorate is so mindless and gullible elections are jokes.

  • Atchison

    I'd dare to say that the only exception would be a career soldier, who had spent the majority of his life fighting far flung campaigns. Applies more to the distant past than to the present.

  • Ross Kay

    So tired of wanna be intellectuals proclaiming Ignatieff's intelligence. Intelligence should be measured in actions and not by one's words. Anyone literate enough to read and understand Tom Sawyer, is as capable as Ignatieff for holding a position at any University. If you can BS all the better.
    Harper on the other hand has demonstrated an intelligence that far surpasses that of Ignatieff's and he returns as PM. The image portrayed in selling a product should never be confused with the man himself. Harper crafted a plan years ago to not only become PM of a majority government but also to destroy the Liberal party. Whether it is a Sun Tzu or Stephen Harper, Mr. Ignatieff is nothing more than another failed wannabe in their presence.
    An intelligent man would never have lead his team to a defeat like this but an arrogant man has.
    Mr. Ignatieff may be a fine husband and man but I shun the thought of him educating the next leaders of our nation in anything other than being an example of who they should not become.

    • Elaine

      The bitter partisanship, the Bev Oda saga, pandering to Western base, all screams "intelligence" to me!

  • Angelina

    Well, if you ask me, Ignatieff has passed through the baptism by fire, and is now a Canadian.

    He became a success, a very successful man in fact; out of Canada, and anyone who does that is going to pay a price upon returning to the country. I don't see Captain Kirk coming back to act here, or Michael J. Fox – Lorne Greene, how many Canadians have left, become successful, and have not come back? Why would they? Ignatieff thought he could – and he was wrong.

    It must be the Scottish blood. We're 25% or more of Scottish descent – in fact Ignatieff is half Scot. When Sean Connery left Scotland, became a huge success – there was an attitude in Scotland that they weren't really sure he could be considered a Scot anymore – since he'd left, after all.

    And Billy Connolly – they've removed him from the records at the school he went to in Glasgow. You leave – you're no longer a Scot.

    Only thing meaner than a Scots Canadian is an Irish-Scots Canadian. Note to other celebrity expats — if you're a success, do not come back. You'll be crucified.

  • Andrew (not PorC)

    So Cosh, are you saying that a recent immigrant shouldn't be trusted as an MP? Even if you don't count the first twenty-odd years of his residency, but just the last five.

    How long does an immigrant have to be here for them to be legitimate candidates?

  • bergkamp

    Iggy is not a immigrant, tho it might seem that way.

    Why is it so difficult to understand people want a Prime Minister who likes the country, who chose to stay here instead of flouncing off thirty years ago and only returning to rule over us.

  • Yanni

    He isn't saying a recent immigrant shouldn't be trusted as an MP, or that a repatriate can't run for office.

    He is just saying that it is an electoral weakness in a party leader.

  • truthintoronto

    Wasn't this semantic game put to rest years ago?

    An immigrant who strives and saves for years to make it to Canada represents the very BEST of Canada. Michael Ignatieff was never this person.

    A Canadian citizen who effectively abandons his country for more than three decades, only to return home for the express purpose of seeking elected office represents the very WORST of politics.

    Canadian political history is full of ads that failed for being discordant with reality (Chretien facial paralysis, Soldiers in our Cities etc) The Ignatieff ads worked because they identified a very real weakness in the personal narrative of the new Liberal Leader. Had these ads, in reality, contained even the slightest anti-immigrant theme it would have backfired spectacularly…particularly for a party, like the Conservatives, that has made courting new Canadians a core part of their electoral strategy.

  • alfanerd

    wow, just amazing how you can miss the point by that wide a margin. nobody's talking of legitimacy, or even MPs.

    the point is that Canadians prefer to have a Prime Minister who lived in Canada vs a Prime Minister who didnt. That's it, that's all.

    You may consider such an attitude as parochial and outdated, but that's not the point, the point is that Canadians have that attitude, and if you want to be elected by them, take heed.

  • Iccyh

    There's a difference between a MP and a party leader or a PM.

    Edit: In other news, I should refresh the comments after reading an article, so I'm not just repeating the exact same points other have already made.

  • Yanni

    The attack ads certainly didn't help Ignatieff, but I don't think the Liberal posters give Canadians enough credit. Even if we are just passive receptors of negative ads and can't think critically about them, why didn't negative ads stop Obama?

    Quite simply because he could match negative ad with negative ads, because he had organizers and fundraisers who could allow him to match the republican machine. In short, he had a relationship with his grassroots voters.

    The Liberals have no relationship with their grassroots. They don't have a machine that can fundraise or get people interested in doing work for the party. They didn't have a sense of Michael Ignatieff that could counter the attack ads.

    I mean hell, what is the criticism of Michael Ignatieff? That he is an expatriate who is ambitious. That's a pretty weak attack. Meanwhile, you are all accusing Stephen Harper of being a fundamentalist who wants to destroy Canada and has utter contempt for our parliamentary process. So how come this negative press didn't lead to a Liberal or NDP majority? Well, it is quite simple.

    1) Liberals have been attacking people for far too long to be believable anymore, and the hysterical hyperbole of their attacks gets taken less seriously.

    2) (The important one) STEPHEN HARPER HAS A RELATIONSHIP WITH HIS VOTERS. We know who he is, what he talks like, what he has done. We know him from the early 90's before he ever became an MP. So he is a fully fleshed out person to his base, with foibles, flaws and virtues that defy simple caricature.

    Those that are new to him will be more susceptible to attack ads against Stephen Harper, but the base either already knows his flaws or realizes his flaws aren't as bad as his enemies like to portray. These voters are going to be on the ground volunteering to get more voters. You underestimate the power of word of mouth over election results, especially when you consider how over the last 4 elections they have gained their majority 15-20 seats at a time.

    The conservative movement has been taking seats riding, by riding, by riding ever since the days of the Reform Party. If the Liberals wants to return to power, they have to have that grassroots organization. They have to have people on the ground riding to riding doing the work, holding rallies, holding symposiums, holding conferences, holding any event they can to build loyalty. Attack ads have worked so well on Dion and Ignatieff because this was neglected.

    But there is good news for any Liberal commentator on these boards. Your party is weak now, but it will rise again to power. It may take 10 or 20 years, but right now they are desperate for warm bodies to begin the work of rebuilding. If you invest as much time and money into the party now as a volunteer as you do as a commentator on news stories, blogs and social media, you are almost guaranteed to become influential. Never have you had such an opportunity to directly influence the democratic process within the party of your favored perspective.

  • alfanerd

    When I argued that Ignatieff’s long absence from the country was a problem—very, very carefully distinguishing my own argument from the content of Conservative attack ads—I was greeted with a chorus of “How dare you?”

    I remember that very well Colby. You started that thread with a + intensedebate rating, and you left it with -50, from which you have not yet recovered.

    It was really something to behold, the rage and fear of those Liberals when you exposed their problem like you did. And these are the people who now need to learn some hard lessons and rebuild. That's not going to be easy for them.

  • Charles

    I think it's the 30 years that is key. If he had just been a professor at Harvard for a few years, it wouldn't be as bad, but he was a journalist and writer in the UK long before that. The thing that really surprised me to read was that Ignatieff had left prior to the enactment of the Charter, so had had no experience in post-Charter Canada until coming back. That's pretty huge.

    That said, I still liked Ignatieff. But I get why people were concerned that he just didn't get Canada or care enough about Canada.

  • bergkamp

    "I think it's the 30 years that is key."

    I agree. Entire adult life spent elsewhere tells you all you need to know about what Iggy thinks of Canada.

    Iggy's time abroad only bothers me because he wanted to be Prime Minister. If Iggy did not want to be leader, and only wanted to be Minister of Finance or Foreign Affairs or somesuch, than it would have been much less of an issue. PM is only job in Canada that made me care where Iggy spend his adulthood.

  • Mike T.

    We know who he is, what he talks like, what he has done.

    ***

    Talking with people who voted CPC, they can be very glad that this isn't the case. "Bev Oda? Who's that?"

  • Andrew (not PorC)

    Obama had the most money in that race. I'll agree that Iggy would have been able to withstand those attacks better if the Liberals had the same financial resources to work with.

  • Andrew (not PorC)

    Oh, and the real reason that the Liberals are in trouble is that centrists are not and will never be as dedicated to a party as more extremist ideologues. They won't donate as much money. They won't donate as much time. The grassroots of those organizations (aka rubes) get shaken down for cash every few weeks with the scare du jour.

    I don't even really understand why democratic legitimacy should be flowing from the 'grassroots'. They are what you call interest groups. They are a few tens of thousands of people who are highly motivated politically in order to donate hundreds or thousands of dollars. The vast, vast, vast majority of Canadians are not and will never be so motivated.

  • lgarvin

    This is one of the best posts I have read on here in a very long time. Thanks for taking the time.

  • Wait, i thought it was the opposition who forced this election on Harper??
    I guess i must be confused then, right?

  • Yanni

    If you know who he is, what he talks like, and what he has done… then the attack ads shouldn't work like they claim they work.

  • Yanni

    I notice as well, that you don't dispute the main thrust of my rant, that the Liberal party has neglected the areas of the party devoted to gaining new voters and getting money from them.

    You spend a lot of time on here Mike, and we both know that commenting on Macleans is just masturbatory oratory into an uncaring void. With the Liberal Party desperate for new volunteers, now would be a great time to use the time collecting new voters for the Liberal Party and raising money for them. Trust me, you'll be happier making a real difference. Call up your riding association today.

  • Pedro

    Ouch!
    Mike T., that's gotta hurt.
    Yanni's gotta point.
    No matter how much CBC and CTV go on about electronic social media, successful parties have people with feet on the ground.

  • Phil_King

    Obviously that was more a reflection of people's reaction to the CPC's endless media attack wave than to Colby's article. He basically put a target on his back since people can't directly show their distaste to the government.

    In any case, I'm not sure why there are spending limits during an election, and yet the remaining 99% of the time there are no limits at all. That just seems weird to me.

  • Yanni

    I have never, ever, ever seen someone's political position change because of an argument on the internet. Political change is slow and involves a relationship with family, friends, employers or community. This is why it would be absolutely useless to hire people to comment on here. Why pay someone to do that when you can pay him to knock on doors, show up to rallies, stuff envelopes, etc. etc.

    Social networking is good for helping you organize people, not opinions. Giving your opinion on the internet is for when you want to piss away the day talking politics for fun, because you haven't got a job you need to be doing right now. That's why most of the people on here are students, the unemployed, homemakers, on some sort of leave, or have a job that they can ignore (ie. public servants).

  • Yanni

    Sure, but Obama got that money because he had a grassroots base to draw upon. It didn't just fall from the sky like manna. Organizations and people that exist outside election time are necessary to gain those financial resources.

    The Liberals have squandered their 5 years in the political wilderness and relied on the per-vote subsidy rather than rebuilding their base, because they thought (like you) that all that matters is a media campaign. Losing their per-vote subsidy is either going to be the beginning of their rejuvenation or the beginning of their death.

  • Phil_King

    Yup. The poor man versus rich man, and people expect the poor man to win?

    Oh but of course it's his fault for being poor right?

    I donated $400 to the LPC and got $260 of it back from taxpayers who likely don't support my choice.

    Meanwhile the CPC is complaining about a $2 subsidy awarded to each MP on the basis of their actual support?

    Just like we got rid of corporate donations, we need to get rid of tax rebates for political donations.

  • Yanni

    Oh I don't know, Liberal supporters seem perfectly willing to be scared about something the Harper government does on a week to week basis. It just doesn't translate into money coming in like it should. Also, I consider myself a centrist rather than an extremist, and I still vote, fundraise, and volunteer. I don't think the world is going to end if the Liberals and the NDP get into power. I just think they make bad policy that will negatively impact my life.

    Also, of course they are interest groups. We all belong to them. Do you belong to a union? You are part of an interest group. Do you go to church? You belong to an interest group. Do you belong to chamber of commerce as a small business owner? You belong to an interest group. You work for an employer? Your company is an interest group. You live in a particular city? That city is an interest group. The fact that these groups then organize their members, support political parties, and lobby government is a feature of our political system, not an aberration or a corruption of it.

  • Yanni

    Yes, it is the Liberal party's fault for being poor. It isn't like Liberal supporters are any less wealthy than conservative ones. Even if they were, the NDP really has a disproportionate amount of genuinely poor supporters, and they have a pretty good war chest.

    If you want to get rid of tax rebates for political donations, I could agree with that. Though it would be a disincentive for the middle class to donate to political parties.

  • alfanerd

    you're probably right about the reaction to Colby's article.

    the whole spending limits thing is completely ridiculous, not just the difference between elections and the rest of the time, but everything else. i would be in favour fo getting rid of all spending limits, even for 3d parties, as long as the source of the funding is always made public.

  • Andrew (not PorC)

    $2 per vote is a much better use of tax dollars than the contribution tax credit, no?

  • Phil_King

    That wasn't really what I was aiming at. If the Liberals couldn't get people to donate, that's their problem, obviously and will affect their campaign.

    My interest is more centered around increasing the value of an individual vote and ensuring that smaller parties have at least some form of funding. I think it helps keep our democracy healthy by ensuring there's always an alternative in the works for the future.

    Beyond that, I think Elections Canada needs to update its spending limits policies. It's ludicrous to have limits during an election but none for the other 90% of the time. I say set limits year round so that richer parties can't just ride roughshod over everyone.

  • Andrew (not PorC)

    Belonging to a group does not mean one is politically motivated. Most Canadians (population, not electors) don't even vote, much less have meaningful involvement in 'grassroots'. Grassroots are small, non-representative, politically motivated interest groups. Governments being wagged around by these groups is not necessarily a good thing. They receive inordinate attention not because of the votes they can deliver, but the cash and other resources that can be leveraged to buy other votes.

  • Andrew (not PorC)

    More to the point, if you made the money these groups can deliver irrelevant to the political process, and the broader electorate would tend to receive more attention than this small slice of our society.

  • McC_

    to be fair, he did run in 2006 with a view of exactly that, of becoming a minister in Martin's cabinet. Sure, he clearly had designs of that being a stepping stone to subsequent post-Martin leadership run and shot at the premiership, but he just as clearly did not expect the post-Martin era to begin so soon.

  • Yanni

    Sure, if you just like rewarding the party currently in power, rather than its challengers. The conservatives are the biggest beneficiaries of the subsidy. It certainly isn't enough to compensate for private donations anyway, and largely just encourages complacency of those in charge of the party because they're getting paid anyway or they can spend money on media rather than the socially awkward and difficult work of social organization.

    Frankly, keeping the per-vote subsidy around is to our net political advantage. I also believe, if I can be frank, that it is the biggest weakness of the Liberal Party. If the Liberal Party is forced to find its own funding, it will also find its voters. The Reform Party started with almost no funding at all, private or public and within a few short years had 50 members in the House of Commons. You can also increase the Liberal seat count by 50 seats by the next election as well, as long as you are willing to do the legwork.

    If you believe that you can't get funding except through the vote subsidy then you'll never gain any votes, whether you have the subsidy or not.

  • Andrew (not PorC)

    I don't want the Liberal party, or any party, to be beholden to a small group of donors on whom its entire fortune rest. Who will those ideologically motivated donors be? I'm not sure. Labour? Not likely. Environmentalists? Maybe.

    Which groups will buy and pay for the Liberal party? Who knows. We know for certain that they won't be working for Canadians as a whole, or even their supporters. Are Canadians well-served by the fact that the NDP is bought-and-paid-for by labour, and the Conservatives by big oil and the religious right? I don't think so. It means that sensible policies that even their base as a whole supports won't be implemented if it means alienating their paymasters.

  • Phil_King

    Predictably of course we go in opposite directions, but in any case we agree that the current Elections Canada policies are inconsistent at best.

    Personally I'd like year round limits to keep the big boys from destroying the up and comers before they get established.

    It seems too much like giving say multinationals a direct ability to destroy start-ups, which obviously wouldn't be good for the economy.

  • Yanni

    Interest groups are representative, they are representative of the people they represent (just not the general population).

    But if you remove interest groups, organizations, activists, lobbyists, churches, community organizations etc. etc. from the political process (something that is becoming easier as more people are less involved in the wider community in any capacity) then you will only create two results.

    1) More non-voters in general.
    2) Media campaigns (largely driven by attack ads) will become exponentially more important. If they aren't discussing policy or politics with other members of their interest group, voters have to get their information about how to vote somewhere. Negative ads are the quickest and easiest way to influence a voter.

  • Yanni

    If you take away private donations, you make the cultivating of a grassroots base irrelevant.

    If you make the cultivating of a grassroots base irrelevant, then all campaigns are media campaigns.

    The most effective means of campaigning politically through media is to use attack ads.

  • Yanni

    I don't think the per-vote subsidy does that though, since it is rewarded to people based on how many votes they have received. A smaller party is still outspent to a degree as to make their per-vote subsidy contribution essentially meaningless. Anyone who is going to play with the big dogs needs private funding anyway, and there is no party who has ever had a shot at the House of Commons who couldn't get private funding.

    All I think the per-vote subsidy does is encourage parties to stick with their base alone (the Bloc), or to ignore the necessary work of cultivating a base at all (The Liberals). I think the per-vote subsidy has a lot to do with the results on election night.

  • Yanni

    It is impossible to represent Canadians as a whole, because Canadians have competing interests. Certain groups want to abolish guns, some want to shoot guns. Some want money spent on paying down the debt, some want a cool new stadium. That is why democracy isn't about representing "all Canadians" (except in terms of the fact that all Canadians have rights) but representing the Canadians that got their MP's elected.

    The political process in a democracy is always going to be based on an alliance of interests to take power. If we want a entirely publicly funded group of dispassionate rulers without interests to decide public policy, we might as well groom aristocrats from birth like something out of Plato's Republic.

    So yes, political parties are beholden to the people that sent them there, and cutting off the money is a good way of showing your displeasure in how the party performs in terms of representing you. I simply must stress as well, that MP's are there to represent you, not to represent an ideological transformation of the country for its own sake.

  • derek

    Two points. If Layton came out and said, no, he will not give Labour any favors, would you believe him? Me neither.

    First, under the current rule big anything can't write big checks. The days of Liberals being stuck and getting a big check from Bay Street are gone. What we see are numerous people in an industry or region writing small checks. Chretien was brilliant when he brought that forward.

    Who would then represent the labour unions, the oil companies? Get a bunch of smart people in Ottawa to decide what is good for this or that? Bah.

    What we have now are three parties who represent specific interests. If Elizabeth May voted for increased tar sands development money, her money and volunteer organization would evaporate. Same if Harper introduced NEPII, or Layton introduced Freedom to Work legislation.

    What is great about this is we know. There are real disputes with real people who will win and lose in Canada right now. There is no nice middle ground to keep everyone happy.

  • Andrew (not PorC)

    I'd be cool with banning radio and television political advertising. Other countries have done this, and I don't think Canadians would miss it.

    It also reduces the extent to which money buys power, which can only be a good thing.

  • Andrew (not PorC)

    Of course there will be alliances of people within the broad electorate that form governing coalitions (either within a party or between several parties)–buying the change they want with votes. That is a far cry from tiny groups who may or may not represent the broader interests of the electorate buying the change they want with cash. You can buy control of parties with this money, and since we have an oligarchy of political parties where the barriers to entry are very, very high, mainstream Canadians will increasingly be held hostage by parties that are each controlled by tiny interest groups. We'll all get to pick the least worst of awful choices.

    It means those who can't or won't donate to political parties have far less influence. That isn't democracy.

  • Yanni

    Sure, but that's just changing a method of transmission. I think you can make a case for limiting radio and television advertising that could be amenable to most parties, though I think it may be unenforceable in the age of the internet.

    But even if you banned all television and radio political advertising, money will still buy votes. I'll take the money I would have spent on television and radio and market my ideas through any method I can get, up to and including having people shout on soapboxes.

    If I was to run an internet campaign, btw, I wouldn't waste time on sites like this where people argue politics. Wrong crowd to pitch to and too much chance of diluting the message. Waste of money with almost no effect on gaining voters I didn't already have. Instead, I'd use venues where people aren't talking politics to spam with messages, or engage voters with a reward for listening to my spiel. I can just imagine a facebook game where you play as prime minister of Canada, and various crisis pop up on your desk. The game is rigged so that the results of choosing your favoured policies lead to great results, while if the user chooses the policies of his rivals it leads to disaster.

    Anyway, infinite ways to spread your message, though all require money and volunteers.

  • A_logician

    You forgot to mention retired people. There are lots of us commenting.

  • Yanni

    I did forget the retired. Also people who are currently working part-time (like me!).

  • alfanerd


    It seems too much like giving say multinationals a direct ability to destroy start-ups, which obviously wouldn't be good for the economy.

    Incidentally, that above point is crucial one regarding whether big business is 'pro-free-market', its not, big business doesnt want a level playing field with the start-ups, and they usually lobby for "regulation" which is just a way to tilt the playing field. but that's another topic entirely.

    As for your laudable goal of keeping "the big boys from destroying the up and comers before they get established", it's best achieved by de-regulation.

    Your mistake is that you think the Conservatives can do to any future Liberal leader what they did to Iggy and Dion. That's incorrect. The Conservative attacks on Iggy and Dion stuck because they resonated with voters. But they could very well backfire if the Liberals choose a good electable leader.

    That should be the lesson of this election, not that negative ads are inherently bad or unfair.

  • Yanni

    The NDP have strong links to unions and to NGO's. While neither of these can donate, their members certainly can, and these organizations have an audience they can cultivate money from.

  • Yanni

    Sure, but how do you police such a thing?

  • Phil_King

    Yeah, that would be like herding cats wouldn't it? LOL

    My best offer would be to say that partisan political ads shouldn't allowed outside the election period.

    There's no good purpose to it that serves democracy, and never happened at all before 2004.

    Then at least everyone knows an election is on, and the time required for subliminal programming is very limited, because ultimately it's a terribly subjective judgement as to whether an ad is intentionally trying to subvert the conscious mind.

  • PoorDeadNed

    Iggy's chief accomplishment before being drafted by the Liberal party was to be head academic cheerleader for the invasion of Iraq. I'm not sure why this doesn't come up more often, presumably because it's not an angle of attack the Tories could use, since their entire foreign policy can be summed up as "be more hawkish, reactionary and pro-US than the Liberals."

    Despite the talking heads mostly ignoring this issue, I suspect it was a factor. It was like the Liberal party unanimously drafted Joe Lieberman as leader then had him run on an NDP economic platform, but with his same reactionary warmongering foreign policy. Seems like a candidate designed to be hated by everybody.

    From my perspective Chretien's most unambiguous virtue was not supporting the Iraq war. For the Liberal party to coronate Iggy was to completely reject that virtue. I thought Iggy ran a fine campaign and I actually like to listen to him speak more than any of the other party leaders. But I would sooner cut my own leg off with a dull hacksaw than vote for him or the party that selected him.

  • Andrew (not PorC)

    Without the need for spending on radio and TV buys, campaign spending limits can be lowered, similarly lowering the barriers to entry for new political movements.

    I'm okay with print advertising. It's easy for people to avoid if they aren't receptive. It also encourages slightly more reason-based appeals since you can't use ominous music and tense voice-overs.

    I'm sure parties will continue to try to find ways to advertise, but when the most effective avenues are cut-off, the advantage of having more money will be diminished.

  • Yanni

    "Incidentally, that above point is crucial one regarding whether big business is 'pro-free-market', its not, big business doesnt want a level playing field with the start-ups, and they usually lobby for "regulation" which is just a way to tilt the playing field. but that's another topic entirely. "

    Yeah, I always say this. Regulation is great for corporations, because economy of scale means they can hire people specifically to deal with regulation. Smaller businesses can't.

    I also point out that internally, large corporations are planned economies, with resulting inefficiencies.

  • alfanerd

    it's one of the biggest misconceptions today, that big business is pro-free market, and that conservatives, being pro-free market, are pro-big business.

    It's exactly the opposite.

  • Steve H

    I'm half kidding too.

    Though when you think about it, "Render unto Caesar what is Caeser…" probably puts Him a whole lot closer to the Tommy Douglas type political/religious firebrandism than the Preston Manning type.

    Yet, now that I consider that, Tommy and Preston weren't all that different in many ways. At least they both establshed and then stuck to a clear set of principles, unlike the current leadership of, what, all five of our "major" parties?

  • Andrew (not PorC)

    The per vote subsidy helped the Greens enormously.

  • Yanni

    Make the party all about Elizabeth May? Why yes it did help with that.

  • Andrew (not PorC)

    "and never happened at all before 2004."

    There were occassional pre-writ spends. But not usually for months and months prior.

  • Andrew (not PorC)

    They're following a strategy, and a pretty good one. Getting an MP elected gives them legitimacy they didn't have before, and helps to make them a credible choice in other ridings. They would have had a hard time getting there relying on a small grassroots organization, up against vastly better funded entrenched parties. Indeed, I would expect the Conservatives to spend vast sums to try to squelch the Greens in BC next election, as they represent a significant threat to the centre/centre-right more than the left.

  • Yanni

    At one time the Greens had some conservative members.

    Elizabeth May purged them. Now it is a party for people who think the NDP have sold out.

  • Olivier

    Gloat all you want Cosh.
    You came off as a pompous jerk by attacking Ignatieff for something that a lot of people considered trivial. A lot of people didn't as well.

    You're supposed to be smarter than that.

  • Andrew (not PorC)

    I'm a fiscal conservative who would vote Green if it were not electorally futile. I'm appalled by the NDP for their brain-dead economic policy, and the CPC for their brain-dead environmental, criminal justice, and social policies (as well as their brain-dead tax policy–corporate tax cuts excepted) and my suspicion of the religious/evangelicals. I grudgingly vote Liberals because they tend to be least bad and are occasionally capable of sensible policy reform.

  • Clop

    From the article:

    "I don’t know what story Paul Wells will tell in his sprawling Making Of The Prime Minister 2011 feature, and if he disagrees with me I would strongly encourage you to take his word over mine."

    No worries about that Cosh. You are one of the sad, angry dysfunctional turds who thrill to the ignorance and nastiness that the Cons have made virtues.

    Your writing is but a fleck of excrement compared to what Wells offers.

  • Prairieanne

    Wow! Your excerpt from his election night speech really confirms what I'd always thought. He lived in a dream world, convinced he was destined to become a great national leader.

  • Crit_Reasoning

    No. She's a head of state, not a head of government with executive powers, and she and her family were exiled by an oppressive Soviet regime.

  • Elaine

    Don't worry about the negative thumbs, you are right on!

  • Elaine

    Things aren't always as they are supposed to be I guess….

  • Eric

    PDN: I agree with your entire post,except for the commonly held misunderstanding that Chretien opposed the war in Iraq. The reality is that he had no opinion on it.

    My recollection is that he stated that Canada would support the UN direction with respect to the war. It was only after the UN declined to endorse the invasion that the government took a position against participation.

    Mr Chretien lived up to the ideals of the Liberal Party. He never took a stance in favour or against the war. Fortunately for him the UN reflected the Canadian desire and he was belatedly and simplistically allowed to take credit for opposing the invasion.

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