"That's kind of the sentiment we're getting at"

by Andrew Coyne on Friday, May 6, 2011 8:48pm - 308 Comments

When people in politics talk about what they do — when they boast about it, as they do almost compulsively — they really have no idea how loathsome they sound:

Halfway through the 2011 campaign, a Conservative war room operative sat down in an Ottawa pub to discuss the party’s entire strategy against Ignatieff.

“They say that we try to portray Ignatieff in our ads and so on as a weak and flailing professor,” the war room staffer said. “No, that’s how we portrayed Dion. Dion was weak, you know, Dion was ‘not a leader.’ We’ve never said Michael Ignatieff isn’t a leader. We’ve never called him weak. And we’ve never called him a flip-flopper. Even when he changes his mind, we don’t say he’s a flip-flopper. Michael Ignatieff, in our narrative, is a political opportunist who is calculating, who will do and say anything to get elected.

“He’s a schemer. When he says one thing and then he changes his mind the next week, it’s not because he’s indecisive and a flip-flopper. It’s because he’s an opportunist who will say different things to different people. I don’t think we’ve even used the phrase, even internally, ‘He’s a malicious human being.’ But that’s kind of the sentiment we’re getting at. With Dion, we were trying to portray him as weak. You can’t trust him to lead us out of the economic recovery because he’s a weak man. With Ignatieff, it’s ‘He’s a bad man,’ right? He’s someone you don’t want your daughter to marry, right?”

The “strategy” of the Conservative party in this election was to spend millions of dollars — your money and mine, most of it — to portray the leader of the Liberal party as not just an “opportunist” and a “schemer,” but a “malicious human being,” a “bad man”. This is the same man for whom the Prime Minister in his election night victory speech claimed to have only the highest regard.

I don’t want to weep too many tears for the Liberals. They did much the same to Conservative leaders in the past — recall the ridicule of Stockwell Day’s religious beliefs in 2000, the fear campaigns of ’04 and ’06, of which the late campaign’s evocation of Stephen Harper’s desire for “absolute power” was a pale echo. But I can’t recall anything on this scale, or this vicious.

There are things we can do, consistent with freedom of speech, to prevent this in future. We can take away the public funds that subsidize this garbage. And we can require that party leaders voice their own ads, so that they can not pretend to dissociate themselves from the messages their minions spew.

But ultimately it’s not going to change unless we change the culture of politics: the culture that encourages people to believe it is a fine and good thing to devote their talents to destroying other people’s reputations. As Frank Graves, the Ekos pollster Liberal lobbyist Brian Klunder [Graves was retweeting him] put it on Twitter,

I’m sick of frat house nature of war rooms – thinking it fun to try to ruin lives and careers. People need to grow up.

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  • KCM

    The culture war started long before Graves. I've no idea who really started it[ other then it began in the US] Certainly both sides have their grievances and grudges. You said, i said. It's a great shame it has become a political club regardless of who wields it.

    • Ariadne

      Why there are Canadians attribute many ills of the world to the Americans is just so irrational. It is like Islamic countries blaming everything on the Jews. Don't you think Canadians are smarter than those people?

      • KCM

        Not just blaming the US irrationally. But the reality is many of out trends, politcla aand otherwise, good and bad, originate with our Southern Cousins.

        • Ariadne

          By reading many past negative comments from suppose to be gentler and enlightened Canadians, they make Fox News and Americans more classy and polite in comparison. It is becoming embarrassing and delusional.

          Originate from US? Do you have concrete proof on this? There are always bad segments of society no matter how heavenly a place is. One might mistakenly conclude that US has it in spades, but that is a very misguided and erroneous thinking. US has over 300 million people compared that to Canada's just 34 million people, of course they will sound noisier and boisterous than we do. In short everything will be amplified due to their numbers. With our lesser population here in Canada, governing should be easier and quieter in comparison than there down south. There are many other countries to look up as good example for bad behavior, why focus on US is just beyond acceptable.

          As for political scene, those countries which suffer no boisterous debates or vocal attacks, are usually under those theocratic and authoritarian regimes – as there are just no political contest happening.

          Is the US system perfect? Of course not, not even by a long shot, but nor are WE! Having said that, both the Southern and Northern cousins are a lot better than many countries.

          We Canadians should stop this childish demonization of US. We are suppose to be more mature and rational than this. It's like two brothers/sisters trying to point at each other "He/she did it first!" The bad news is; it is usually Canadians who are doing many of the pointing.

          • KCM

            You misunderstand me. I'm by no means anti-US in a default sense. I really don't expect them to be perfect at all. Why would i? We're not perfect ourselves. In addition they have an awsome responsibility as the leader of the western world, they don't have the luxury of all the second guessing that secondary or middle power like us have. And i did say good and bad. Don't know why you assume i only meant the negative alone. As for evidence…er maybe cuz we live right next door to em. Like to make the case that our trends, cultural and otherwise, originate elsewhere? Europe is probably a distant second…nowhere near as influential as it was even a few decades ago.

            "By reading many past negative comments from suppose to be gentler and enlightened Canadians, they make Fox News and Americans more classy and polite in comparison. It is becoming embarrassing and delusional."

            Different strokes for different folks, but IMO, that pov is just plain silly. Many of us are too damn smug for our own good yes! But at least we aint insane!

  • Judge Roy Bean

    The gnashing of teeth, the wringing of hands, the tritting of teeth. Of course it was all A-OK when the heroes of the media, the Liberals reigned for so many years. Put the shoe on the office foot and SOMETHING NEEDS TO B E DONE. Hypocrisy is and will forever more be the hallmark of the left. My but this is fun. How long before Stevie dumps gun control??

    • KCM

      Oh you guys are catching up fast. Remember thing are closer then they may appear in the mirror.

  • Whitey228

    Sadly, even if you take away public funding, this same thing will continue as freedom to spend money trumps freedom of speech any day. The Conservative party coffers are pretty full and the other parties do not have the economic engine that the Conservative party has. If you take away public funding, the attack ads will continue, but they will only be used by the Conservatives.

    Often the attack ad has been questioned as to whether or not it has value. Clearly it worked for the Conservatives and not for the Liberals as most Canadians who voted against the Liberals said that they could not trust Ignatieff.

    • Ariadne

      People did not vote for Ignatief or Liberals in this election because of their leftist spending platform. That was the dumbest platform ever made by them. There was no show of centrist Liberals at all in this election. Their platform did not reflect nor address the economic difficulty we are facing at this time. Voting for the Liberals knowing their platform as campaigned by Iggy at each stop, would have been like handing blank cheques to a party with spending addiction. To think that Liberals touted themselves as intelligent and brilliant, none of them are smart enough to consider that we are facing the following:

      – Middle of world recession where most European nanny states going bankrupt or facing economic collapse
      - When our Universal health care is in life support and financially unsustainable
      - When our largest trading partner the US (buyer of most our goods) is in a financial meltdown
      - When the election coincided with TAXATION DEADLINE, where every day while doing tax preparation is a constant reminder how much government spending costs us.

      In short, the Liberal’s most self touted intelligence/brilliance was a no show in that campaign. To blame it on something else is an insult on voters’ intellect. Ah, but then that is what the Liberals are most noted for!

  • http://twitter.com/matwilson6 @matwilson6

    Does Coyne know how ignorant he is?

    http://ahabit.com/mandate

    i doubt it !

    • http://ragingranter.blogspot.com Raging_Ranter

      And you linking to the same nonsensical blog repeatedly is not ignorant how?

  • http://www.xtras-online.co.uk/hair-extensions/clip-in-ponytails/ Clip on ponytails

    I greatly appreciate the professional approach. These are pieces of very useful information, which is very useful for me in the future. Thanks.

  • Phil_King

    My concern is that not only have we justified negative tactics and anti-democratic behaviour by electing a conservative majority in this election, and thus propogating more of the same, but that it represents just how little regard people have for Canadian democracy at all.

    As though we simply CAN'T expect any better, and thus have given up hoping for better.

    And while I recognize that people voted in large numbers for the NDP based on their positive messaging, it drove enough people to vote FOR Harper that he actually got a majority.

    40% is a significant number of voters for a single party to gain in a five way split afterall, and unless the NDP suddenly moves further right, or unless another competitive party rises closer to the center, you're looking at multiple conservative majorities in the future.

    • KCM

      Precisely my worry. It is possible to argue the polarization has already begun, mostly to the CPCs advantage, by driving blue libs into the arms of Harper once it became apparent the NDP surge couldn't be turned back. Hard to see how this will not continue unless either the libs roar back as a radical centrist party[ NDP or cons need to screw up bad first] or the dippers become more of a pan social democratic party, killing the libs in the process. Either way the right wins[ unless the libs come back and the dippers return to their home on the left] since the centre of Canadian politics will get pulled right to the detriment of social democratic ideals and policies. Hope Jack's listening.

  • Kerry

    pathetic, Andrew. you picked the Liberals – you lost. and now witgh the "conservatives are mean" bs.

    i hope business suffers as a result.

    • Phil_King

      Wow, bitter much?

      Allow me to paraphrase your comment: "I don't like what you have to say Andrew, so I hope you burn in hell"

      Nice. Real nice.

      Sheesh.

  • Aaron Ralph

    It's funny how easy it is to misdirect "eminent" media figures. And political opponents. And the natural instincts of the twittering media types to malign Conservatives and defend Liberals. We saw this all through the campaign, and pre-campaign, and see it again here now.

    Let me explain. You don't actually need to do something to get value from doing it. Let's say you're in a competitive campaign (for anything, local council, school board, corner office, etc.) and you and your opponent have relatively limited, finite resources. You want the opponent to waste those resources on activities which won't help him/her so you can gain an advantage. Here's an example of what might be done: 1. ID a small cluster of people close to your opponent 2. micro-target this small group with a communication (brochure, brown envelope, email, robo-sounding phone call, etc.) 3. you want them to believe EVERYONE is getting this communication, and because nearly everyone your opponent talked to received it, that is accomplished 4. then your opponent is tied up in figuring out a response, using his/her limited resources of time and brainpower to respond to something that basically no one knows about 5. or fretting about it, or making claims about it after the fact as Glen Pearson is doing (does he seriously believe such a mass attack was undertaken against him, if at all?) 6. such tactics work best as the deadline approaches and resources are strained and the opportunity to respond is limited but in Pearson's case I suspect little or nothing was actually done and he's just making excuses

    But it's interesting to see Coyne acting surprised that Liberal tactics were used on them. It was a defensive tactic, largely. It helped blunt the daily vicious attacks and claims made by the Liberals, their brown envelope drops, and anti-Harper character assassination as it rolled out. No mention was made that Iggy isn't married (which I first heard on Cross-Country Check-Up) or that he was a bad professor, or parent, or kicked his dog. His haughtiness and arrogance was always on display and the Liberals were apparently oblivious to it. Anyone seeing Ignatieff in the debates for the first time was repulsed, and that's why the Liberal vote went down. Two loser leaders in a row, losing 800,000 votes each time and they blame the Conservatives?

    As others here have noted, they had a loose-lipped leader and a party that put power before everything else. I, for one, believed they had the right idea when they convened the Montreal Thinkers' Conference in 2010. But, in the months before, it became clear it would be a failure as they first banned their own MPs from attending and failed to use it to change their policy outlook — they didn't choose "thinkers" who would help shed light on them, but ones from whom they were unlikely to receive planks. It was a gabfest not a political cauldron. It fed the narrative that Iggy was an out-of-touch academic.

    Iggy in the debate looked like Iggy in the Conservative ads. Jack in the NDP ads looked like a much better alternative.

  • http://profiles.google.com/renardrouge1 red fox

    “I’m sick of frat house nature of war rooms. Me too ,thats why I don’t subscribe to anything the media party produces these days.

  • http://profiles.google.com/renardrouge1 red fox

    “I’m sick of frat house nature of war rooms. Me too ,thats why I don’t subscribe to anything the media party produces these days.

  • http://profiles.google.com/celinemdion Celine Dion

    http://www.winnipegfreepress.com/local/ndp-wants-a-recount-in-winnipeg-north-121374674.html?device=mobile

    An Elections Canada spokesman said a member of the riding or any of the parties can request a recount.

    http://www.nationalpost.com/story.html?id=4736786

    Recount ordered in Ontario riding puts third Tory win in jeopardy

    Elections Canada has ordered a judicial recount of votes in a Northern Ontario riding, putting a third Conservative election victory in jeopardy. Tory candidate Jay Aspin ousted Liberal incumbent Anthony Rota from his Nipissing-Timiskaming riding by just 17 votes in Monday’s vote. Elections Canada on Tuesday also ordered recounts in the Quebec riding of Montmagny-L’Islet-Kamouraska-Riviere-duLoup and the Toronto area riding of Etobicoke Centre. In Etobicoke, Conservative Ted Opitz took the seat from Liberal incumbent Borys Wrzesnewskyj by 25 votes, while in Quebec, New Democrat Francois Lapointe initially lost by 110 votes to Conservative Bernard Genereux. A first recount showed more than 100 votes were awarded mistakenly to the Green party.

    Question ,what if the CBC “accident” seemed to have skewd an NDP or Liberal win, then what ?

    Howls upon howls of complaints from the cons , as voters stayed home or change vote ! So what gives with the utter silence in the case where the Cons win ? Spread his next idea ,have fun trying even o complain, I am getting a huge run around. !!

    Join the flood , Demand Elections Canada do a re vote at CBC expense , as some voter switched or stayed home do to the breached release of poll data ,

    While some Twitter users were risking punishment online, it was Canada’s national broadcaster, the CBC that seemed to have breached section 329 publicly.

    At 9 p.m. EST, CBC Newsworld began airing results from Atlantic Canada in Ontario 30 minutes before polls closed there. Residents in the Prairies also reported seeing CBC results early on Twitter

    Can voters ask for redress due to any proven infractions

    905 area made the break for Harper , so did the above skew the results as some stayed home or changed a vote

    1-8662048448, press #2 8004636868

    7053273503 for elections Canada ,commissionersoffice@elections.ca

  • http://profiles.google.com/celinemdion Celine Dion

    http://www.winnipegfreepress.com/local/ndp-wants-a-recount-in-winnipeg-north-121374674.html?device=mobile

    An Elections Canada spokesman said a member of the riding or any of the parties can request a recount.

    http://www.nationalpost.com/story.html?id=4736786

    Recount ordered in Ontario riding puts third Tory win in jeopardy

    Elections Canada has ordered a judicial recount of votes in a Northern Ontario riding, putting a third Conservative election victory in jeopardy. Tory candidate Jay Aspin ousted Liberal incumbent Anthony Rota from his Nipissing-Timiskaming riding by just 17 votes in Monday’s vote. Elections Canada on Tuesday also ordered recounts in the Quebec riding of Montmagny-L’Islet-Kamouraska-Riviere-duLoup and the Toronto area riding of Etobicoke Centre. In Etobicoke, Conservative Ted Opitz took the seat from Liberal incumbent Borys Wrzesnewskyj by 25 votes, while in Quebec, New Democrat Francois Lapointe initially lost by 110 votes to Conservative Bernard Genereux. A first recount showed more than 100 votes were awarded mistakenly to the Green party.

    Question ,what if the CBC “accident” seemed to have skewd an NDP or Liberal win, then what ?

    Howls upon howls of complaints from the cons , as voters stayed home or change vote ! So what gives with the utter silence in the case where the Cons win ? Spread his next idea ,have fun trying even o complain, I am getting a huge run around. !!

    Join the flood , Demand Elections Canada do a re vote at CBC expense , as some voter switched or stayed home do to the breached release of poll data ,

    While some Twitter users were risking punishment online, it was Canada’s national broadcaster, the CBC that seemed to have breached section 329 publicly.

    At 9 p.m. EST, CBC Newsworld began airing results from Atlantic Canada in Ontario 30 minutes before polls closed there. Residents in the Prairies also reported seeing CBC results early on Twitter

    Can voters ask for redress due to any proven infractions

    905 area made the break for Harper , so did the above skew the results as some stayed home or changed a vote

    1-8662048448, press #2 8004636868

    7053273503 for elections Canada ,commissionersoffice@elections.ca

  • http://www.facebook.com/people/Michele-MacKay/100000916646124 Michele MacKay

    Ironically, far from being a malicious political schemer, Ignatieff was too much the gentlemanly academic to have any success in the political arena against a Karl Rovian opponent. The Liberals should pick a scrappy leader who can duke it out with the likes of Harper next time.

  • http://www.facebook.com/people/Michele-MacKay/100000916646124 Michele MacKay

    Ironically, far from being a malicious political schemer, Ignatieff was too much the gentlemanly academic to have any success in the political arena against a Karl Rovian opponent. The Liberals should pick a scrappy leader who can duke it out with the likes of Harper next time.

  • Anonymous

    Check out the last segment of the May 17 issue of Steve Paikin’s The Agenda for some information from departing MPs about political parties.

    You might have to select the “Alison Loat” tab on the tvo site.

    The parties and the back room pollsters and strategists need to be crimped, financially.

  • http://profiles.google.com/patrick.melanie Patrick Moore

    He paid to cover up someone else’s crime. That’s not noble – it’s criminal.

  • http://profiles.google.com/patrick.melanie Patrick Moore

    He paid to cover up someone else’s crime. That’s not noble – it’s criminal.

  • Crit_Reasoning

    There are things we can do, consistent with freedom of speech, to prevent this in future. We can take away the public funds that subsidize this garbage.

    This wouldn't prevent much. Parties that are good at raising money from their base would still be able to pay for attack ads. And what's a good way to fire up the base so they donate more money? Why, advertising, of course. Thus you run the risk of a self-perpetuating cycle for parties that are successful at raising funds. Meanwhile, cash-strapped parties that suck at fundraising would be effectively muted.

  • madeyoulook

    I don't care. Kill all these subsidies anyways. At least then it isn't MY money they've pilfered to behave this way.

  • Crit_Reasoning

    Oh, I totally agree that the subsidies should end. I'm just pointing out that killing the subsidies might have unintended consequences.

  • OriginalEmily1

    All of it is 'your' money….the salaries, the offices, the travel……

    So let corporations go back to funding political parties….that'll really clean things up.

  • Oakvillevoter

    The Liberals ran negative bads against stockwell day in 2000 & made fun of his religious beliefs by having warren kinsella appear with barney the dinosaur on national tv.

    Can you imagine the uproar if the tories ran negative ads against those with muslim or hindu beliefs?

    The fact remains that the Liberals & NDP made a strategic error in defeating the government this spring on the ethics issues.

    They should have waited until the Auditor general issued her report on G8 spending.

  • David_M.

    Mr. Coyne, I'm afraid they enjoy it too much and it probably pays too much as well.
    Mr. Pearson's blog post that you pointed out drives it home. The question is how can you either malign or undermine this candidate…and then do it.

  • ChrisInOtt

    Only a small difference between an appearance on a news show for a ten-minute interview during an election versus bringing to bear multi-million dollar marketing machine outside of writ period for years sans cesse.

  • KeithBram

    "negative bads" – nice Freudian slip! ;-)

  • Crit_Reasoning

    I don't think that corporations should fund political parties, either. I think that citizens should contribute, within the limits of donation caps that make it impossible for individual donors to have much influence.

    Ideally, I'd prefer a totally non-subsidized version of the current system, with caps that are somewhat higher to compensate for the loss of the per-vote subsidy and the tax credit.

  • trudohh8tr

    For once I agree with OE.

  • s_c_f

    Yes, I think that's what I'd want too.

  • Thwim

    But you point it out yourself.. we do that, and they get into a cycle of simply chasing those who they can get money out of, which means their resources and attention goes to those folks and not to the folks who are too poor to chip in the extra $100 bucks — which when you think about it, are probably the people who most need the attention of government to help them out of their situation.

  • Hedges

    Do the caps really need to be higher at all?

    And why not have an overall cap as well as an individual cap.

    How mych money does a party really need to operate? What is the minimum? At what point do marginal dollars stop funding positive activities and start funding the negative activities?

  • Iccyh

    To quote another post on this thread:

    Parties that are good at raising money from their base would still be able to pay for attack ads. And what's a good way to fire up the base so they donate more money? Why, advertising, of course. Thus you run the risk of a self-perpetuating cycle for parties that are successful at raising funds. Meanwhile, cash-strapped parties that suck at fundraising would be effectively muted.

    This strikes me as an excellent argument for not accentuating the effects that removing the subsidy may have. Anyway, I suspect this'll lead to more polarization, as playing to the base in order to drum up funds becomes more and more important; things are more likely to get worse.

  • Andrew (not PorC)

    Spending limits should be cut by about half to 60% for campaigns (they clearly have too much money to work with). I might also like to see caps on how much money a political party can accept in donations. If the idea is a level playing ground, allowing parties to wildly outspend their opponents is not in the interest of democracy, unless democracy is about converting dollars to votes (and more dollars).

  • OriginalEmily1

    Which is very short-sighted of you both.

  • s_c_f

    Pearson? Not exactly a great reference or source for ethical matters at this moment…
    http://ipolitics.ca/2011/05/01/liberal-mp-on-hook…
    http://www.lfpress.com/news/london/2011/05/06/181…

    Pearson hid from police and parliament the fact that a staffer was stealing public money. Apparently he thought it was better that none of the public knew about it and paid for it himself. Another Liberal/NDP misdeed that the media somehow didn't get out until after the election.

  • excanuck

    Mr Coyne, you have a most selective memory. And do you not think the rancid Canadian press has contributed hugely to the guttersnipe political discourse in the country? If not, then read and think about some of the garbage, to use your qualifier, produced by your own magazine's so-called journalists.

  • Iccyh

    Most of the money that paid for those ads came from Conservative partisans, many of whom may well see Michael Ignatieff as exactly the person he's portrayed to be in the ads, if not worse. With the elimination of public funding, it is hard to complain that the Conservatives are spending public dollars in a way that is detrimental to democracy.

    And, it is interesting that Graves is mentioned (though he isn't who provided the quote in the blog post, that appears to instead be Brian Klunder) as he's now receiving threating calls at home. The most likely candidates for these kind of actions vs. Graves would be rabidly partisan Conservatives who took things too far.

    Pardon me for not being optimistic about the prospects for change on this front given that the Conservatives have been rewarded with a majority.

    For Conservative partisans: Other parties can't really stand on the high ground, but that isn't an excuse for consistently damaging political discourse; pointing fingers instead of accepting responsibility just leads to a rush to the bottom and the Conservatives definitely bear some responsibility here.

  • David_M.

    Oh I know. 'Glen Pearson not just an “opportunist” and a “schemer,” but a “malicious human being,” a “bad man”'.
    Hope you got paid for that post S.

  • s_c_f

    I never claimed he was malicious, but he participated in unethical behaviour. He did return the money, but he failed to notify the public or the police.

    I don't take lessons on ethics from the likes of Pearson.

  • David_M.

    I appologize for the offense.

  • OriginalEmily1

    Yes, rotten and evil to the core…and paid for it out of his own pocket.

  • http://ragingranter.blogspot.com Raging_Ranter

    And you're certain Graves is receiving those death threats from Conservatives? Seems they have much less to be bitter about than others.

  • Iccyh

    If I were certain, I'd have said so instead of saying "most likely candidates". It is entirely possible that others may be responsible, but if you look at the groups most upset with pollsters (and with Graves specifically) then I'd say that some are definitely more likely than others…

    Also, I didn't say "death threats". I know nothing of this besides what Graves tweeted, and he didn't appear to say "death threats".

  • http://ragingranter.blogspot.com Raging_Ranter

    The base may not be as stupid as you think. I quit donating to the Conservative party in 2007 when they decided they had enough money to run childish attack ads on Dion in between elections. And that's precisely what I told them when they phoned asking for donations. "You've clearly got more money than you know what to do with."

  • Crit_Reasoning

    I think the best approach is to wean the parties off the subsidy gradually, by reducing the subsidy every year for the next four years. This gives all parties time to adjust.

  • http://ragingranter.blogspot.com Raging_Ranter

    Sorry. I replaced "threatening phone calls" with "death threats" for some strange reason. Posting too damned much these days. It's time for another break. A looonnnngggg break.

  • Iccyh

    I've been thinking the same thing the past few days about my own posting.

    It'll be too bad if you go, though, things are definitely more interesting and enjoyable with you around (even if we disagree).

  • Iccyh

    Let's hope most Conservatives (and most Canadians, for that matter) are like you.

  • http://ragingranter.blogspot.com Raging_Ranter

    Many are. Many aren't. Rabid partisans are the minority I believe. In any party. If they weren't, party support would not fluctuate so much from one election to the next. The rabid partisans do, however, get a disproportionate share of the attention.

  • http://ragingranter.blogspot.com Raging_Ranter

    That's nice to hear. It is reasonable commenters like you that make it worthwhile to exchange views here. However, I find myself too willing to crawl into the gutter with some of the less reasonable ones. It's a weakness that can only be cured via hiatus. :)

  • Iccyh

    I'd rather the country went entirely in the opposite direction and weaned the parties off donations. That way, instead of going to their base for funds they'd be obliged to go to voters.

  • Crit_Reasoning

    I think an overall cap is undemocratic. Political parties are a fundamental component of our democracy. Why should we be in the business of denying Canadians the right to contribute $50 (or even $1000) to a political party they support, just because some artificial limit has been reached?

  • Richard_S_Argent

    I totally agree. Up the per vote subsidy and ban all donations.

  • http://ragingranter.blogspot.com Raging_Ranter

    The problem is, how would a new party like Reform or Green ever get off the ground if they weren't allowed to raise money? They'd have to wait until they got some votes before getting a subsidy. And how do they organize and run candidates and attract votes if they don't have money and are not allowed to raise funds?

    Donations are capped at a very modest amount in Canada. I do not believe the donation limits as they stand right now pose any sort of threat to corrupt democracy.

  • Iccyh

    Every so often, I see something I really want to respond to and I just can't resist, and I get sucked back in all over again.

    For me, the issue I have posting here is that so many people don't actually take the time to reply. I'll write put some effort into writing something, only to see it get thumbs up or down but not for anyone to reply. I wonder sometimes about the commenters who stick around and continuously manage to be reasonable and thoughtful: how do they find the time and not managed to get depressed? :P

  • Iccyh

    Why up the subsidy?

    Reduce it and set a low cap on the total payout, with another lower cap on advertising; cripple the parties financially and force them to communicate through action rather than through ads.

  • Jenn_

    Up the vote subsidy, keep the donations (perhaps a 50% tax credit instead of the 75% or whatever it is up to $400) and get rid of the 60% back on expenes! How much you spend on expenses has nothing to do with supporters and voters–at least once you get over the 10% of the vote thing, which has always struck me as patently unfair, since you spend the expense (or don't)before you can know. In other words, that is the subsidy that most aids attack ads and that most leaves opponents silent. Which of course then affects the vote subsidy and the donations.

  • Crit_Reasoning

    I don't share your desire to "cripple the parties financially". To me, the whole concept of financially crippling political parties is undemocratic.

  • Iccyh

    I have really, really conflicted feelings about the way our parties here in Canada are run (and about parties in general, given what I've seen and experienced elsewhere).

    On the one hand, I have a huge deal of respect for the belief that people should be allowed to do what they want and that should include donating to parties, and that parties should be free from excessive, specific regulation as that could have a whole host of really negative outcomes. In fact, I think that there is a fairly solid argument to make that we're already seeing some of these outcomes in things like the "In & Out" mess: unclear rules have put both the Conservatives and Elections Canada in a bad position.

    On the other hand, parties are beginning to behave more and more like businesses (with party members as their shareholders and the electorate as their potential customers) and this is having some very negative effects. Not only are we moving towards permanent fundraising and advertising, but in a way that is similar to how businesses answer to their shareholders (or rather, how limited shareholder influence actually is), parties aren't accountable to their members on a day-to-day basis and often are only indirectly held responsible. The party executives and party leaders have incredible amounts of power and they really aren't accountable to anyone for the periods between conventions.

    While I'd agree with the statement that "parties are necessary in our democracy", I don't necessarily view them as democratic institutions as they behave in ways that are, frankly, anti-democratic on a regular basis. They exist for their own interests and are not very accountable, which run entirely contrary to the principles of democracy.

    One of the few ways I can resolve this internal conflict is to suggest a solution which cuts their funding and limits advertising dramatically while letting parties and their members sort out all on their own how they operate and what kind of structure they should have. It isn't an ideal solution by any stretch, I'll admit.

  • MTB

    How so? No party is being discriminated against. If all we had was televised debates, free-time political announcements, party web sites, and the media, citizens would have to just…you know…take responsibility for getting to know the parties through less toxic means.

  • http://ragingranter.blogspot.com Raging_Ranter

    Yes. We've seen what it does to the Liberals. Besides, how would a new movement like Reform ever start up if they couldn't raise money?

  • MTB

    (and I'd add that sometimes I think we could do without the media….fun as it is to participate in these forums)

  • s_c_f

    Parties and candidates should have the right to tell people about themselves without restriction. If I want to tell you why I should be elected, I should be allowed to do so. Since it's impossible to have 30 million conversations, parties need to spend to get the word out. They should not be restricted with some kind of artificial limit that prevents them from doing so.

    Not only that, the act of governing is one long continuous act of providing the incumbent exposure. To deny the opposition from promoting themselves to counter the government's exposure would provide the incumbent a massive advantage.

  • MTB

    I agree. I dearly wish the journailsm profession would take a long hard look at itself and its toxic relationship with the PR profession – not just in politics, but especially there. Don't you people realize that every spin-doctored non-answer, every vacuous accusation levelled against an opponent, every calculated decision not to do an interview or answer more than five questions. …. every one of these decisions is made by people whose sole job it is to study how best to get one's message out through the media? And the message the media sends to these people is "garbage allegations will be rewarded by being published," "spin-doctored non-answers to questions will be given the same number of column inches as genuine answers, so no need to be honest," and – wait for it – "we're so consumed with PR strategy and gaffes that it pays to focus your attention on running a "good campaign" rather than talking about the issues."

  • http://wakinguponplanetx.blogspot.com Candace

    Bingo! Look at the faux outrage over Brousseau getting elected without campaigning. Gee. Was the fact that the NDP were running phantom candidates ever explored DURING the election? Sure, we heard about the vacation in Vegas, but no one in the press followed up to see if she were the only one not campaigning. No one. Would that have made a difference in Quebec? Who knows?

    Instead we were treated to column upon column about Terry Melewski getting (justifiably) shouted down when he was essentially heckling the Prime Minister. Who was, still, the Prime Minister at the time.

    THAT was important to the media.

    Mr. Coyne, I bought the paper version of your magazine to get the story on the election in one fell swoop. I will likely do that next election, assuming Macleans is still around. Keep Wherry doing what he does best (whine and attack the CPC for every little tiny perceived mis-step) and this magazine & forum may not survive the coming draught of election speculation.

  • Iccyh

    To add to this a little:

    Parties don't exist to get elected, parties exist to ensure the success of the party in perpetuity.

    This is almost explicitly acknowledged by the Conservatives, from what I've read. I think there is a strong case to be made that this was the case with the Liberals as well, and that one main reason why they've fallen is because they thought perpetual success was something they'd accomplished and could therefore stop working. I've not read enough about the NDP, but their actions at the provincial level suggest that they believe the same thing.

  • Thwim

    Just a nit. Parties aren't necessary in our democracy. But they may well be inevitable.

  • Crit_Reasoning

    Personally, my time is limited, and I'm not always able to respond as much as I'd like because I'm too busy with other stuff. Sometimes I just thumb a reply up and respectfully let it stand on its own, as the natural end to the thread—the final word.

  • Iccyh

    That last post was intended as praise for the patience that you and other commenters show in the face of disappointing responses, not as any kind of a criticism.

  • Crit_Reasoning

    I didn't read it as any kind of criticism. I'm just expanding, clumsily, on my commenting philosophy.

    I get a lot of enjoyment out of sharing my views with fellow interested and engaged citizens. I do this because it's fun. I'm not too worried if I invest time in a comment that gets ignored and thumbed down, because such is life. It's important to approach things philosophically and be patient with people.

    By the way, I should mention that I really enjoy reading your comments, despite the fact that you're from Edmonton and I'm from your superior neighbour to the south. ;-)

  • Andrew (not PorC)

    Unfortunately, parties seem to be slaves to their tiny cores of paymasters. And the rest of us are screwed, being a captive market for our cozy little oligarchy. What are we gonna do, vote Green?

  • KCM

    Limit the contributions of rabid partisans…problem fixed. A simple non multiple choice questionaire should do it, or we don't take your money[ choke gag cough] ie., what is the unladen air speed of a conservative swallow over say a liberal one…no feed back though..or they're bound to ask African or European?

  • JGCM

    This is what i like to read/hear. I hope you're right and, based on this election, I think you might just be. Thanks for promoting democracy the way it should be.
    Sincerely,
    Guy who voted liberal (one of the few, it seems)

  • Andrew (not PorC)

    The incumbent usually has a massive fundraising advantage, too, and for fairly natural reasons. Elections without spending limits also serve to entrench the incumbent.

    Sounds like damned if you do, damned if you don't.

  • KeithBram

    "Parties and candidates should have the right to tell people about themselves without restriction."

    Sounds good in theory, but as we've seen over the past decade, what this really translates into is the party with the most money spending it on vicious attack ads between elections, rather than selling their own platforms. First it was the Liberals, then the Conservatives.

    I'm in favour of banning advertising altogether between elections (party websites excepted as they are more than just advertising).

  • Iccyh

    Despite having my own hesitations about trumpeting the benefits of Edmonton, I can never take Calgarians seriously when they claim superiority:

    At least I can drive around Edmonton and figure out where I am, Calgary is just a gigantic mess.

  • Un Canadien errant

    As for the matter of personal donation caps, I don't think upping them is a very good move. Or, upping them too much. The thing is, not everyone has enough slack in his budget to shed 1000$ like that ca, use they "believe in a cause". If you make the cap too high, you effectively give a disproportionate influence to well-off donators, who are the only ones likely to have such money at their disposal. That's what I like about the current system: no matter your level of income, your vote has an influence on your favorite party's resources, and if you want to give, it's still affordable (not for all, but for many).

  • http://ragingranter.blogspot.com Raging_Ranter

    Given that Youtube and various other means of web-publishing and broadcasting are almost free, I don't think the negativity is going to be eliminated that way either.

  • Hedges

    I'm not so convinced that political parties have all that much to do with democracy, per se.

    For example, would you make the case that civic elctions, where (in general) there are no parties, are undemocratic? I would argue that in practice civic politics are at least as democratic than provincial or federal politics, if not more so.

    I suppose that more than arguing against financial support of political activities I'm actually arguing against financial support of political parties.

    Setting aside the infringement of my "right" to make a donation to a political party for a moment, exactly what benefit does Canadian society get from giving the 5 major political parties about $100 million total?**

    **That total is my recollection from the Wiki article that someone eles linked to within the last few days.

  • MTB

    I have to partly disagree with you there, Canadace. A leader's refusal to take questions and the hostility of his supporters to such demands for accountability are a matter of public interest. They inform voters of how this party intends to deal with those Canadians who do not vote for them. However, I agree that an exploration of candidate credentials anytime a newcomer stands to beat an incumbant is valid — so long as matters like age and perceived social status are not the impetus for the investigation. After all, who's to say a lawyer is going to make a good MP either?

  • KCM

    Here's my 5 cents[ receipt please] I agree with CR. A limit on donations, it could be argued prevents a party from growing ie., undemocratic. To follow up on your point above. Seems to me it's important to keep the individual limits down. And try and keep a preponderance of small donors over larger ones. That way at least there is an incentive for parties to listen to the little guy too.[ so i don't support rasing ind limits]. My fear in any case is that the parties are simply going to use the little guys as a kind of reverse fire brigade: "C'mon chaps! The dastardly ? are at the gates – we implore you give – or we all die, sort of thing.] The CPC have already mastered this art.__ Chase votes not $__. I'd like to see some empirical evidence that per vote subs are emasculating the more dependent parties.__This may be moot in any case if what Mendes argues is true. It is a constitutional matter. Something that Harper has overlooked for political reasons, or another case of him not getting our system. I doubt it though since he was around when the Chretien deal went down

  • KCM

    I was going to say do what i heard Israel does – ban all advertising…
    [ why not polling too - howls of outrage in the macleans waroom.." Fascist bastard...someone get him off the blog!"]
    … during the writ period. New media would presumably make that a nightmarishly difficult task?

  • Hedges

    Hmmmm. I'm still having very mixed feelings.

    On the not peripheral, but somewhat side question of parties and democracy – do you really believe that the existance of parties is actually a fundamental part of democracy?

    Seems to me that democracy, at its root, "just" means that citizens, collectively, have ultimate control over the government – parties are very much an after thought, and if parties are causing more grief than benefit, we should not automatically feel that democracy is in any way under threat if we attempt to curtail the power of the parties. And money and power are linked.

    And how much money do parties really need to provide whatever benefits they bring to the table?

  • KeithBram

    "What are we gonna do, vote Green? "

    Though it seems ridiculous now, if the NDP suck as Her Majesty's Loyal Opposition and the Liberals can't get it together, a lot more people may start viewing them as a viable alternative. Especially if May doesn't prove to be as big a fool as many currently think she is.

    (Not an endorsement or a prediction; just thinking "aloud")

  • KeithBram

    True. Strictly speaking, we could have an entire houseof independents who voted strictly on an issue-by-issue basis. But that could make it very hard to set a direction for the government to follow – and how would they select ministers for the various departments? the need to effectively organize to get anything accomplished would almost necessarily lead to the formation of like-minded coalitions of MPs, which in all likelihood become formalized groups…

    Nonetheless, I definitely would like to see a greater degree of autonomy for our MPs; more freedom to vote their conscience. A greater degree of independence would force the party elite to listen more closely to the rank and file MPs. Too many of them these days are benchwarmers despite their best efforts.

  • KeithBram

    :…the donation limits as they stand right now pose any sort of threat to corrupt democracy."

    But what about honest democracy? LOL!

  • KeithBram

    I'm more in favour of banning ads between elections; let 'em use ads as part of the way they reach people during the campaign. I do like the suggestion made upthread to force the actual candidate running the ad to do an American-style "I'm So-and-so and I endorse this message", in the (probably pointles) hope that it will reduce the venality of recent attack ads.

    I've long been on record as supporting a ban of publishing poll result during the writ period, precisely because it would force reporters to actually discuss policy or behaviour in order to fill inches / broadcast time now filled analyzing the tea leaves.

  • http://ragingranter.blogspot.com Raging_Ranter

    Without official polls, there would be endless "leaks" of unofficial polls, resulting in even more obsession with polls. Or at least that is one possible scenario.

  • KCM

    Agree with everuthing you say. Except…i'm curious why Isael went that way. It seems counterintuitive. Let em at it during the writ period. There is a chance i've got it wrong and Isael agrees with us.

  • KCM

    You're in luck. I live in one of only two jurisdictions where there are no parties – NWT. The other being Nunavut??
    I'm no expert. But i did hear an interesting debate on CBC north involving our local mla Jane Groenewegan [ you could email her if you're really interested] who definitely likes our system. The liberal mp C.Bennet came here as part of her reform of democracy shstick and claimed the acrimony was worse if anything here then Ottawa…Jane disagreed quite strongly, as did the guest from Nunavut[ the losing lib candidate in this election] The conventional wisdom holds that this system wouldn't hold up in a place where everybody doesn't know each other well, the way they do up North.
    My amateur view rests mainly on a couple of thoughts: that it would be a lot easier for lobbyists with deep pockets to corrupt one person then a whole party.

  • KCM

    In addition it seems to me human nature being what it is that sans parties individuals would sooner or later start to form their own cliques and alliances in any case. Must stress i have no evidence for these opinions. And i do like the way things work here in principle. You should look it up[i'll put a link in if i have time] The whole of the leg forms one caucus from which they elect the govt and the premier[ going from memory here] and then the rest of the cacus acts as the opposition. It's a very curious system indeed.

  • ColdStanding

    Bench warming is a condition of their obtaining a party franchise. They get to ride the national level promotion focused on the leader, in exchange they have to do what they are whipped/told to do.

  • http://ragingranter.blogspot.com Raging_Ranter

    I too wish for more backbencher independence. But the US has exactly that, which means that the allegedly independent members of Congress are owned individually, instead of as a group. Campaign finance legislation might somewhat alleviate that, but I'm not sure by how much.

  • http://twitter.com/matwilson6 @matwilson6

    I think he has some good points though !

    http://ahabit.com/mandate

    Sorry Coyne, I prejudged you. That's not a bad message, but the media needs to be better too -that's all I am saying.

    GOOD ARTICLE -IT'S ONE OF YOUR BETTER ONES !

  • KeithBram

    And isn't that a sad commentary on the state of our democracy! But all too true.

  • http://ragingranter.blogspot.com Raging_Ranter

    If you steal money, and I secretly pay it back to cover for you, then we've both broken the law.

  • http://ragingranter.blogspot.com Raging_Ranter

    I'm not sure what you're saying. Do even small donations corrupt democracy? I doubt that.

  • http://ragingranter.blogspot.com Raging_Ranter

    Yet your foot remains planted firmly in your mouth from the above comment. Live and learn I guess.

  • KCM

    Yeah but no one would know for sure which polls were reliable, which were pure fantasy. How much n would that be? Come to think of it. That's sorta what happens now. Still like to know why Israel went this route though.

  • http://ragingranter.blogspot.com Raging_Ranter

    Actually, we've seen that the incumbent advantage is often much more fickle than is often believed. Kim Campbell – 1993 – being an obvious example. John Turner – 1984 being another.

  • KeithBram

    I was just having fun with the (I assume) unintentional double meaning of your comment as worded. Read your comment again; it can be taken to say that corrupt democracies are not threatened by the current donation limits, so I facetiously asked about the impact of the spending limits on honest ones.

    I thought I was being funny and clever, but if my joke required explaining I guess I'd have to say I failed. There's a reason I never tried my hand at stand-up…

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