"That's kind of the sentiment we're getting at"

by Andrew Coyne on Friday, May 6, 2011 8:48pm - 308 Comments

When people in politics talk about what they do — when they boast about it, as they do almost compulsively — they really have no idea how loathsome they sound:

Halfway through the 2011 campaign, a Conservative war room operative sat down in an Ottawa pub to discuss the party’s entire strategy against Ignatieff.

“They say that we try to portray Ignatieff in our ads and so on as a weak and flailing professor,” the war room staffer said. “No, that’s how we portrayed Dion. Dion was weak, you know, Dion was ‘not a leader.’ We’ve never said Michael Ignatieff isn’t a leader. We’ve never called him weak. And we’ve never called him a flip-flopper. Even when he changes his mind, we don’t say he’s a flip-flopper. Michael Ignatieff, in our narrative, is a political opportunist who is calculating, who will do and say anything to get elected.

“He’s a schemer. When he says one thing and then he changes his mind the next week, it’s not because he’s indecisive and a flip-flopper. It’s because he’s an opportunist who will say different things to different people. I don’t think we’ve even used the phrase, even internally, ‘He’s a malicious human being.’ But that’s kind of the sentiment we’re getting at. With Dion, we were trying to portray him as weak. You can’t trust him to lead us out of the economic recovery because he’s a weak man. With Ignatieff, it’s ‘He’s a bad man,’ right? He’s someone you don’t want your daughter to marry, right?”

The “strategy” of the Conservative party in this election was to spend millions of dollars — your money and mine, most of it — to portray the leader of the Liberal party as not just an “opportunist” and a “schemer,” but a “malicious human being,” a “bad man”. This is the same man for whom the Prime Minister in his election night victory speech claimed to have only the highest regard.

I don’t want to weep too many tears for the Liberals. They did much the same to Conservative leaders in the past — recall the ridicule of Stockwell Day’s religious beliefs in 2000, the fear campaigns of ’04 and ’06, of which the late campaign’s evocation of Stephen Harper’s desire for “absolute power” was a pale echo. But I can’t recall anything on this scale, or this vicious.

There are things we can do, consistent with freedom of speech, to prevent this in future. We can take away the public funds that subsidize this garbage. And we can require that party leaders voice their own ads, so that they can not pretend to dissociate themselves from the messages their minions spew.

But ultimately it’s not going to change unless we change the culture of politics: the culture that encourages people to believe it is a fine and good thing to devote their talents to destroying other people’s reputations. As Frank Graves, the Ekos pollster Liberal lobbyist Brian Klunder [Graves was retweeting him] put it on Twitter,

I’m sick of frat house nature of war rooms – thinking it fun to try to ruin lives and careers. People need to grow up.

Bookmark and Share
  • http://twitter.com/slavitch @slavitch

    "I’m sick of frat house nature of war rooms – thinking it fun to try to ruin lives and careers. People need to grow up."

    Well, good luck with that. That frat house nature can be found in almost every low rise office building in every office park in this country. The truly horrible aspect of this isn't that these people are monstrous, it's that they're normal.

    • Claudia Lemire

      I agree 100%

    • surely96

      We have to remember that the leader sets the tone in all organizations, especially the government because that is the way we will be perceived by our own citizens but also on the international stage. I think we are already viewed differently , more like Americans because of the toxic atmosphere the Conservatives with Harper as their leader have brought to the government in our country.

      • Bluescot

        Blaming the conservatives now for everything you dislike about Canadian politics?
        Chretien, of course, was beyond this? Chretien went after people in his own party.
        Political strategy is given by advisors. Harper is not the mean-spirited control freak
        the liberals have always portrayed. Chretien was more so. Ignatieff said terrible things
        about this country in several videos while at Harvard. I consider several of the attack ads
        to be truthful. You are just a Harper-hater rambling with the old 90s phraseology.

    • http://ragingranter.blogspot.com Raging_Ranter

      So true. Human nature is ugly. To the core.

    • MTB

      Where in heavens name do you work? Please tell me so I can make sure I never send a resume there.

  • Bakerman

    The idea to have party leaders voice their own national ads is brilliant. Are there other jurisdictions that do this? Seems like a simple change that could have a big impact.

    • s_c_f

      They do it in the USA, it was not Coyne's idea, in the USA they have the party leader say at the end of this message, "I'm X and I endorse this message", whether X is Obama, McCain, or somebody else.

      • http://ragingranter.blogspot.com Raging_Ranter

        And that would be the single most effective means of preventing the ads from crossing a certain line. No leader wants to be directly associated with the really negative attacks. However, that would leave the problem of third party advertisers. They could go negative, and not being attached to any party, there'd be no disincentive to be vicious. Granted, third party ads rarely are. But that too could change.

        • KeithBram

          I could be wrong (I haven't checked anywhere; relying on an increasingly faulty memory), but aren't third-party ads banned during an election?

          • Poker Face

            Not banned, just limited to 150k spent nationally, and I think 3k in funds allowed to be spent in a single riding.

          • http://ragingranter.blogspot.com Raging_Ranter

            Restricted, but not banned. Numerous PSAC and other government unions advertised against the Conservatives this election.

    • shouldIsellyourwheat

      How easily people fall into adocating the abandonment of free speech.

      The essence of the fundamental human right to free speech is to protect objectionable political speech.

      The attack ads against Dion and Ignatieff would not work, unless there is a mustard seed of truth in them. The attack ads against Harper didn't work, because there was no mustard seed of truth.

      The Liberals and Dion and Ignatieff just never chose to respond to the substance of the attack. They chose to be offended rather than respond. Look at Layton's attack during the English debate about attendance. There was a great answer to that attack, but Ignatieff was offended by the challenge, rather than obliterate it with a response. It was the same with the ads. The content that the Conservatives put in the Ignatieff ads was all stuff that Liberals themselves brought up in the 2006 leadership campaign, which Ignatieff lost. Ignatieff just refused to ever give simple answers to those concerns.

      When you are out of the country for 35 years, and the first thing you do when you come back is declare Quebec a nation, well, golly gee, for people who have lived through patriation, Meech, Charlottetown, and two Quebec referenda, well you damn well sound like someone who is just visiting, and who hasn't come back for you.

      • Iccyh

        Of all of the posts you could have picked to make reply about free speech you picked that one?

        I don't think anyone is saying that attacks should be banned, I think the point of what Mr. Coyne is saying (assuming it is the original blog posting you're addressing) is that deliberately setting out to paint a decent guy as deficient and having that be one of the main strategies used by a campaign is deplorable. Where in what has been said is anything that would restrict free speech?

  • s_c_f

    Unfortunately, from what I've seen and what I've read from Wells, the Liberals really did want power over all else, they were scheming and calculating. Attacks ads don't work unless there is at least a semblance of truth.

    Reading Wells' first chapter about the election. It really stands out, just how power-craving they were specifically in the last couple of years. They were thinking about taking power first, coming up with (bad) strategy second, then coming up with the reasons for it third, and actual policies came fourth.

    As for Ignatieff, he might not have been the primary driving force behind the thirst for power, but he was the leader, and he also went along with it. As their leader, he was calculating, he was an opportunist, and he was saying pretty well anything to get elected, just like the Conservative strategist was saying, and I say this as someone who did not see a single one of those attack ads. Could he have done things differently? Possibly, but I'm not so sure that could have happened with the Liberal party the way they are now.

    What also makes it a vulnerability for Ignatieff was the fact that he was outside Canada for 34 years, so he really was an unknown in Canada until just a few years ago. Leaders must promote their own good qualities in order to protect themself. If they are unknown, then they need to hold themselves to a high standard of behaviour – they cannot scheme and fling mud, because they are more vulnerable than their target.

    • Dave

      A political party wanting power?

      This is supposed to offend my sensibilities or something?

      • s_c_f

        Well, that's what Coyne, and the Conservative strategist, is saying. Apparently it is supposed to offend your sensibilities.

        "Michael Ignatieff, in our narrative, is a political opportunist who is calculating, who will do and say anything to get elected. "

        “He’s a schemer. When he says one thing and then he changes his mind the next week, it’s not because he’s indecisive and a flip-flopper. It’s because he’s an opportunist who will say different things to different people."

        Are your sensibilities offended now?

        • Feel free to take the arrogant mantle from those libs…
          I kinda got the impression Coyne was commenting on the how, as in, being pathetically boastful, rather than the mere idea of wanting power.
          Surely the Conservatives years ago were doing almost anything to get power.

          • KeithBram

            Surely the Conservatives this past election were doing almost anything to get power.

        • guest

          Wow, if you think that's what Coyne is saying, you've _really_ missed the point of this post.

          • s_c_f

            I don't think you're following the conversation.

    • Jan

      How is it that you did not, in your words, see a single attack ad?

      • s_c_f

        I wasn't in Canada during the election campaign. I follow politics too much to even bother with them on the internet.

        • Jan

          They were all over the internet, I don't know how you follow politics and miss them.

          • http://wakinguponplanetx.blogspot.com Candace

            You don't click on the links. Very easy to do, actually.

          • s_c_f

            Exactly.

          • Jan

            Credibility fail.

          • trudohh8tr

            "Crdibility fail"? Which junior high teacher is letting their students on the internet unsupervised?

      • herringchoker

        I managed to go through the election seeing only one ad, and only hearing one radio ad. Mostly I listen to the CBC and, as for television, I have kids. Apparently the parties don't advertise on YTV, Teletoon and Treehouse, at least not yet.

        • http://accidentaldeliberations.blogspot.com The Jurist

          Whoa, unexploited niche. Presumably this will change.

  • OriginalEmily1

    Well….what country's media was it that let them get away with it?

    • derek

      And what country's voters figured it was no big deal.

      I have a theory. The Conservatives have to give something to their base without scaring away the middle. So they kick the Liberals in the gonads once in a while. The country cheers.

      • OriginalEmily1

        Canadians have no idea what goes on…the media in this country is extraordinarily secretive.

        • Awesome! Now you types can take the arrogant label and wear it.

        • W.B.

          It's funny how the media are now telling us all the stuff that went on during the campaign. They could have told us that stuff DURING the campaign if they had the guts.

          • OriginalEmily1

            Yes, a constant useless uproar of 'When is the election? Is this it? What do the polls say?' ahead of time….silence during the actual campaign….and then something like a confession during the endless post-mortems about what they knew but didn't tell us. Even then, there is much we aren't told.

        • OriginalEmily1

          Try to be serious here

          Doesn't it click with you that the Libs lost? No conditioning is involved.

        • KeithBram

          "…the worst media of any serious country anywhere."

          I guess that means you either don't watch the American channels, or don't take them seriously as a country.

          I can't comment on other countries, but given a choice between the US media and ours, I'll take ours any day.

          • Selena

            CRAP knows they can be as lying, vicious and hypocritical as they want. They know they have their base in their back pocket. So with their own group of enablers in hand, they went after the Lowest Common Denominator of the RoC. There's enough of the greedy, uncaring and/or uninformed to make the difference.

            No doubt many will be whining 2 years from now, only they'll blame all politicians and conveniently forget their own roles in this debacle in the making.

  • BGLong

    Well, the crusty old crank with the potty mouth who I think is wrong about so many
    things is partially right about one thing …

    http://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/why-the-go…

  • http://twitter.com/Catelli_NQU Catelli

    There has to be a way where Elections Canada can be enabled to police campaign statements (official or otherwise) for falsehoods, misleading statements and other such crap. I don't think it has so much to do with funding, you don't money to lie, you just money to propagate the lie. With the Internet, the cost of lie dispersal drops dramatically. If EC finds that the Liberals have uttered 15 falsehoods about the other parties/leaders then the punishment is that other parties can use that number in their ads. Incentive to keep it clean.

    • s_c_f

      What you're describing is a threat to democracy. Truth is in the eye of the beholder. Telling candidates what they can or cannot say is stifling to freedom of speech and democratic freedom.

      • http://twitter.com/Catelli_NQU Catelli

        I'm not telling them what they can and cannot say. I'm advocating for a mechanism that publicly judges and punishes falsehoods after they have been publicly uttered or promoted. If we can keep the entire process in the public eye we can mitigate censorship or freedom of expression issues.

        In any event, there are rules about what can and cannot be uttered in the House of Commons, if that restriction is acceptable when MPs are talking to each other, surely something similar can be used when MPs are talking to us.

        • http://ragingranter.blogspot.com Raging_Ranter

          Falsehoods are publicly judged, by the voters.

          • Andrew (not PorC)

            The public makes terrible judges then–the offenders have a 100% recidivism rate.

          • http://ragingranter.blogspot.com Raging_Ranter

            I never claimed that the public was a good judge of anything. But I don't know of a superior way of judging these things. Ultimately, the electorate decides, for better or worse, who is going to win.

          • KeithBram

            There's a big difference between honest policy differences and blatant lies about one's opponents or about the Canadian political system itself. Blatant lies designed to sway voters should result in some concrete form of punishment.

            During the course of the election itself, there may not be time for a proper evaluation, but parties or members of the public should be able to protest parties' false claims for after-election hearings, with punishments ranging from partial or full refusal of reimbursements of electoral spending to subsidy losses and even subsequent election spending reductions, depending on the severity of the offence.

            The publicity at the time of an adverse ruling, coupled with the likely frequent reminders next election, might go a long way to improving honesty. And few parties would want to cede advantage to an opponent by risking a smaller election spending ceiling than that available to their opponents.

      • Thwim

        You can behold gravity as not affecting you all you want.. go jump off a bridge and see what happens. Personally, I just think they should really lower the bar for slander/libel, and let it get done that way — make it slander if you attempt to tell what someone else plans to do, unless you have evidence for it.

        Just visiting? See you in court.
        Soldiers in our streets? Let's go see a judge.
        Raise corporate taxes? That's fine.. it's right in there in the proposed budget.
        Define marriage as only being between a man and a woman? Sure, it's there in their latest policy documents.

        Basically, stop them from playing with their crystal balls and have them stick to what the other guys have actually said.

        • MTB

          I'm pretty sure some of that stuff is covered by our defamation laws now. Perhaps politicians just need to make use of them. After all, the "fair comment" defence, fails automatically if there is malicious intent behind the words. I can't think of anything more malicious than those attack ads.

          • s_c_f

            In fact, Harper did take the opposition to court at one time (for good reason), and of course was demonized for doing so, by the same people who lament attack ads.

          • Thwim

            I'd argue strongly against that "for good reason".

            He took them to court to stop them from speaking about what he'd done. Note that's a lot different from making speculation about what he'd do.

          • Andrew (not PorC)

            His case wasn't obvious. Truthfulness is a defense in defamation, and the evidence I've seen is consistent with 'consideration' being extended in exchange for a vote.

        • http://ragingranter.blogspot.com Raging_Ranter

          That's called libel chill, and it would be a disaster. I didn't like what the Tories did to Dion a couple years ago with their frivolous law suits, and what you're proposing is that everybody behave that way and worse.

          • Thwim

            Yes. Chill people from committing libel/slander. I don't see what the problem with that is.

            Unless you're saying you like it when they commit slander.

          • http://ragingranter.blogspot.com Raging_Ranter

            I'm afraid I can't agree that libel chill can ever be a positive. It favours those with more resources to fund court cases for one thing. (Like the cash-flush Tories vs. the nearly broke Dion Liberals a couple years ago.) You are confusing my wariness of libel chill with support for libel. Deliberately I suspect.

          • Thwim

            True, I was taking a bit of a pot-shot there, but that's because what you're arguing is silly. You're actually arguing against requiring election campaigns to have documented evidence of what they say about someone else — because it might restrict what they say.

            Except that's EXACTLY the point! To restrict people from saying something they don't have evidence for.

            Think about it, you really are arguing that the threat of being sued for lying shouldn't apply. The only reason that libel cases are so expensive and so chilling is that there are a variety of ways that they can be applied and defended against typically.

            I'm saying ditch all those. Ditch all those "presumption of truth" defences, ditch all the "potential damages even if true" arguments, and tie it to a single criteria for political campaigns: "You said this. Got documented evidence for it? Yes? Case closed. No? Case closed." Boom. Done.

            Make it a defined penalty. 5K to the other party per offense.

            It's quick, it requires no argument from either side. And yes.. it does provide chill.. if you're making false statements. If you've got the documented evidence, there's no chill at all.

    • Just looking…

      Why not pass a law that allows parties to promote only their ideas/platforms in their ads and not talk about their opponents. If your platform is so much better that the other guys' platforms, you should not need to attack your opponent to convince people to vote for you.
      Just a thought…

      • http://ragingranter.blogspot.com Raging_Ranter

        Not possible. Pointing out a weakness in your opponent or platform is legitimate. Extremely negative attack ads cross the line of legitimacy, but who can we possibly trust to make impartial judgements on what is allowed and what isn't? I believe we're better off just holding our nose than attempting to control what is said and how.

        • MTB

          No naming opponents in ads. Only the party?

          • http://ragingranter.blogspot.com Raging_Ranter

            What if he's an independent and he's a nutcase?

        • KeithBram

          I'll give you half a thumb on that one; I agree with the first half but not the second. I think much of the problem is that we've been holding our noses so long we're often not even aware we're doing it. And so they think they can make even bigger stinks with impunity.

  • Leo

    Does this mean Frank no longer thinks "culture wars" are a good thing??

    "Frank Graves of Ekos Research, in agreement with the analysis, has told the Grits that the wedge politics of the Conservatives provide them with an opportunity to stake out a stark alternative. Stop worrying about the West, he’s told them. No need to fear polarizing the debate. It’s what worked for Mr. Chrétien against Preston Manning and Stockwell Day.

    In his advice, Mr. Graves could hardly have been more blunt. “I told them that they should invoke a culture war. Cosmopolitanism versus parochialism, secularism versus moralism, Obama versus Palin, tolerance versus racism and homophobia, democracy versus autocracy. If the cranky old men in Alberta don’t like it, too bad. Go south and vote for Palin.”

    • OriginalEmily1

      He had the right idea…it IS a culture war.

      • Niceguy

        Started by you and your kind…but WE'RE gonna finish it…

    • Blue

      Would Graves be sick of frat house antics if the Liberals had won 167 seats and the Conseraties had 34 ?

      • Leo

        He would be grinning, ear to ear the way Jason Kenney was Monday night, lol!!!

        • OriginalEmily1

          Enough with the propaganda folks…the election is over.

          Graves polls showed the same thing as everyone elses at the end

          • http://ragingranter.blogspot.com Raging_Ranter

            Yes, tell us we're in a culture war, then tell us to knock it off with the "propaganda". You've turned illogic into an art form.

          • OriginalEmily1

            That's your parochial thinking kicking in. The 'culture war' is going on all over the world, and doesn't involve just your local little political party.

          • http://ragingranter.blogspot.com Raging_Ranter

            I guess I'm just not "worldly" enough to compete with your obviously superior intellect. But you knew that already, as I am part of the 42% of the country who you've labeled functionally illiterate.

          • OriginalEmily1

            Well, water seeks it's own level, so you'd know best on that score.

            However, the figure is from StatsCan

          • Selena

            Would you like a tinfoil hat?

          • http://ragingranter.blogspot.com Raging_Ranter

            If you've read Emily's posts elsewhere, you'd know exactly what I was talking about.

    • http://ragingranter.blogspot.com Raging_Ranter

      He's sick of frat house antics because they're no longer working for his side. He'll embrace them again when they start succeeding again.

    • Niceguy

      You really need to stop reminding the Lieberal of their hypocracy…it makes them sad…lmao…

  • s_c_f

    If Maclean's magazine were so averse to this type of politics, they would not be quoting and publishing (on a semi-regular basis) Scott Reid, former adviser to Paul Martin, who is a fierce proponent of this type of politics and one of the worst offenders I have ever witnessed.

    • http://ragingranter.blogspot.com Raging_Ranter

      Which is why he was fired by them in 2006. And even the nasty boys running the Conservative campaign found their morals in late April, when they canned Muttard over the idiotic attempt to portray Ignatieff as actually participating in the US war in Iraq, in a US army uniform holding a gun no less. Mind you, they probably tossed him out of defensiveness more than ethics. Given how many others in the Tory war room were upset over his firing, that would seem to be the case. Nonetheless, obviously someone made the right choice.

  • Mike T.

    I wish only to point out once again that Stockwell Day had every opportunity to explain how his religious beliefs would affect his political actions, and tended to make evasive unsettling answers.

    • Mike514

      Regardless, I think Coyne’s point is that it shouldn’t have been done by WK in the first place.

    • Mike T.

      Nonsense. Creationism efforts in the U.S. have showed how this issue can easily have a political dimension. Plus it raises issues of the critical thinking skills of a man later placed in charge of the department of public safety! Remember, it wasn't his christianity that was the problem, it was that it led him to the scientific conclusion that dinosaurs co-existed with mankind.

      Stockwell Day owed Canadians answers, and of course in turn we owed him a fair hearing.

      • OriginalEmily1

        Absolutely! Separation of church and state is basic.

        • http://ragingranter.blogspot.com Raging_Ranter

          It's also a uniquely American concept.

          • OriginalEmily1

            Actually the British started it.

          • http://ragingranter.blogspot.com Raging_Ranter

            Not much was made of it here until recently. God even snuck into the preamble of the Charter – in 1982.

          • OriginalEmily1

            Wouldn't now. Times change.

          • MTB

            Actually, they didn't. The British have a state religion – Anglicanism – and the supreme governor of the church is the Queen. Canada adopted separation of church and state by placing freedom of religion (and the resulting freedom from religion) in the constitution. Regardless of whoever came up with the idea, however, I think it's rather important to our society.

          • OriginalEmily1

            Actually they did.

            Catholic monarchs burnt protestants at the stake

            Protestant monarchs burnt catholics at the stake

            Elizabeth I stopped that….and allowed everyone their private religious beliefs no matter the belief of the monarch.

          • MTB

            They have freedom of belief, but that doesn't mean they don't have a state religion. They do.

          • Yanni

            Elizabeth I killed every priest that wasn't trained in England (in a monarch approved seminary), in other words everyone who was Catholic.

            Elizabeth I did not have religious freedom.

          • http://ragingranter.blogspot.com Raging_Ranter

            But she meant well.

          • OriginalEmily1

            Yes, it was the start of separation of chuch and state…never perfect at the beginning, but it was the beginning nonetheless.

          • http://ragingranter.blogspot.com Raging_Ranter

            Of course. A few killings is perfectly understandable for such a noble concept.

          • OriginalEmily1

            Yes, it is. A concept ahead of it's time…but it made an enormous difference in the world.

            Should we have given up on the idea of freedom of religion because it wasn't perfect from day one?

            Many countries, including the US, still haven't managed it.

          • http://ragingranter.blogspot.com Raging_Ranter

            I'm thinking that if a monarch orders all priests who do not preach the state religion to be killed, that this probably disqualifies her as the originator of the separation of church and state.

          • OriginalEmily1

            Anglicans are priests.

          • KeithBram

            Anglicans have priests. My father is a priest; I'm nowhere close. But we're both Anglican. :-)

          • http://ragingranter.blogspot.com Raging_Ranter

            An important distinction. I was about to make the same correction. My mom was an Anglican. But never a priest. So far as I know. :)

          • AJR79

            We've had this conversation before Emily. Could you please point out when the British came up with the concept of church/state separation?

            Before you answer with something about Elizabeth I let me remind you that not only was she both head of the state AND the church, she also was a proponent of the divine"right to rule" idea that was in vogue at the time.

            The truth is that "secularism" wasn't even a word until 50 years after Jefferson coined the term "separation of church and state" in his letter to the Danbury Baptists. Your problem is that your anti-American bias does not permit you to give credit where it is due.

            You hold tight to your revisonist history if you want, but you should at least make an attempt at backing up your claim by pointing to the moment in history when you think the Brits came up with the idea. My guess is that you won't be able to find any such moment, as to this day the monarch is STILL the head of both chuch and state in Britian.
            (even thou they have followed the Americans lead and now have a de facto secular society)

          • OriginalEmily1

            I've already said so many times….right on here in fact.

            And yes, it began with Elizabeth I who stopped the burning at the stake of people who didn't follow her religion…..her older sister was known for it and was called Bloody Mary for a reason.

            Perhaps you could read up on secularism…it's a very old concept and has changed meaning many times….did you know that at one time christians were called atheists because they did not believe in the gods?

            http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Secularism

            I know you like attacking me, but don't pretend the Americans invented something when they didn't.

            American society today is far from secular….and they had tremendous religious violence long after their constitution was signed. Many states today don't allow atheists to hold office.

          • AJR79

            You have a pesecution problem if you read my post to you as an attack. I asked you a question, and even had the courtesy to say please. What part of my post did you consider an attack?

            I give credit to Elizabeth I for many things, and think she was a great monarch. She was not what you think she was. Thou less fanatical then bloody Mary, she was a devout protestant and believed in the divine right to rule. She also executed Catholics, thou not at the stake. Since you enjoy looking at wikipedia (I do as well), take a gander at what they say about her:
            http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elizabeth_I_of_Engla…

            "One of her first moves as queen was to support the establishment of an English Protestant church, of which she became the Supreme Governor. This Elizabethan Religious Settlement held firm throughout her reign and later evolved into today's Church of England."

            cont. below

          • AJR79

            How is the esablishment of a state run church a move towards separation of church and state? It seems to me that Elizabeth I went in the exact opposite direction, melding church and state in a way that endures to this day. Ending religious persecution has nothing to do with church/state separation. The historical record will always show that the first nation to be founded on secular principles is America. It will always remain so. Jefferson was and is a hero to freethinkrs around the world. It's a shame that anyone takes credit from him, and hands it to a monarch who in no way thought chuch and state should be separate (the exact opposite in fact). That is why I try to show you the truth. You beliefs do a disservice not only to Jeffersons memory, but to your own understanding of the history of freethought.

          • http://ragingranter.blogspot.com Raging_Ranter

            Apparently she thinks the act of persecuting and killing religious minorities represents the beginning of the separation of church and state, and the advent of secular society. Albeit a very "imperfect" beginning. It is a rather odd assertion to make. :)

            People don't like to hear it, but the US, while they've regressed somewhat in recent years, was the pioneer in this regard. The Quakers and numerous other religious minorities came to the US precisely because they were persecuted in Britain and expected the same treatment in her colonies, like Canada.

            Much more recently, Britain and Canada were turning away Jewish refugees from Nazi Germany at a time when the US was welcoming them. Here in Ottawa, we just this week honoured a former prominent mayor who, among other things, lobbied to ensure Jewish refugees were not allowed to settle here.

            While we might today take more seriously the separation of church and state than our American neighbours, we certainly were not on the right side of history while this concept was being developed.

          • AJR79

            To be fair to Emily, she was saying that Elizabeth I ended religious persecution and killing in Britian.

            There is even a grain of truth to that (thou it's not entirely true). Liz I did do much to bring about peace between Catholics and Protestants.

            To say that that was the start of secularism is still just as baffling. As I note in my comment above, Elizabeth I had a large role in establishing the Church of England. That's hardly something a secularist would want on their resume.

          • http://ragingranter.blogspot.com Raging_Ranter

            Just watched The King's Speech tonight. Not a hint of secularism in 1930s Britain. Not even a trace. :) Society might well have been moving towards secularism at the time, but certainly not the British Crown and government.

          • OriginalEmily1

            I will answer you both at the same time.

            This is actually a thread about Ignatieff, but both of you have managed to drag me into some nonsense about the US inventing secularism and the separation of church and state.

            Elizabeth I became monarch right after her father Henry had taken political control of the church and all it's goods, and after her sister Bloody Mary had made religious killing commonplace.

            The major division at the time was between the protestants and catholics…..so the anglican church was meant to be a church that appealed to both, and kept protestants and catholics together….it effectively cut out the political control of England by the pope.

            Because of this, the burnings of one by the other ceased. It was a remarkable advance for the times.

            The US however was no paradise of freedom as protestants killed catholics and both of them attacked other ….now splintered….religions.

            The US also turned away Jews from Nazi Germany.
            http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MS_St._Louis

          • http://ragingranter.blogspot.com Raging_Ranter

            Nobody dragged you anywhere. You brought up the separation of church and state. Don't get upset when you offer an opinion and someone challenges it. This is typical of the game you play. You offer a throw-away platitude about something, and when someone challenges it, you accuse them of going off topic. Grow up.

          • OriginalEmily1

            No, actually I didn't. This sub-thread started about Stockwell Day and his religion.

            So the discussion was about the separation of church and state….something you promptly attributed to Americans, and I disagreed.

            Which led to your usual personal attacks.

    • http://ragingranter.blogspot.com Raging_Ranter

      It was, and is, considered a no-go area in Canadian politics. You can't talk about your religious beliefs. Period. He'd have been roasted for going into detail about matters of conscience.

      • Andrew (not PorC)

        He could have gone on record about matters of science, rather than conscience. And the age of the earth being ~4 billion vs 6,000 is a reasonable indication how immune someone is to reason and a preponderance of evidence.

        • http://ragingranter.blogspot.com Raging_Ranter

          Yes, he jumped on a pile of grenades when he said that. Evidence that he was way, way out of his league.

      • Mike T.

        A reasonable respectful debate could have been had on both sides. Like the Iggy thing, I am not upset they noted he lived out of the country, obviously he did. What bothered me was that it was presented as a bad thing, full stop, with no intent of going further and discussing why this was a bad thing. There was a better debate about Iggy's "Americanization" or what have you during the Lib leadership race than there was during the 2011 campaign.

  • http://ragingranter.blogspot.com Raging_Ranter

    Ignatieff's reputation and career were not "destroyed". People don't loathe him with nearly the same intensity that they do Harper. If Liberals didn't have the collective attention span of a cocker spaniel puppy, they'd keep him as leader and rebuild under him. How many kicks at the can did Harper need before winning a majority? Ignatieff was weakened by Harper's attacks, but not destroyed. He knew the destruction was coming however. And he knew that it would come from his own. He wisely decided to step aside rather than spend the next 4 years digging knives out of his own back. I'm thinking his old room mate is carrying one of the bigger knives, but that's just idle speculation.

    • Mike T.

      If Liberals didn't have the collective attention span of a cocker spaniel puppy, they'd keep him as leader and rebuild under him

      ****

      If he'd won 30 more seats or so and taken his own then the "see! he wasn't in it for you!" line might have some validity.

      • http://ragingranter.blogspot.com Raging_Ranter

        I don't see the point you're trying to make. Then again, I rarely do.

    • KCM

      What was that you said? I'm a liberal and i deeply resent whatever it was you were attempting to er make er…oh look…it's time for my walk…i'll take this up with you some other time…what was…

      • http://ragingranter.blogspot.com Raging_Ranter

        I said that…. Holy crap! The game's on!! Gotta go.

  • Andre

    Because nit-picking is always productive…

    " You can’t trust him to lead us out of the economic recovery because he’s a weak man."

    It wasn't until much after the 2008 election that Harper admitted that was a recession going on therefore it's hard to believe that this particular narrative even existed.

    • http://ragingranter.blogspot.com Raging_Ranter

      Much of the bragging by that clown strategist seems almost a flight of fancy. I wonder how well the low brow ads even worked. If they were a turn-off for me, a committed (for now) Conservative, how must they have sounded to an undecided voter? These sleazy operatives blowing their own horns are perhaps getting too caught up in the game, and taking too much credit.

      • hosertohoosier

        In January 2007, Liberal support ranged from 32-37% in three polls, while Tory support ranged from 31-35%. Following the "not a leader" ads. By late February, Liberal support was in the mid to high 20s in most major polls. Only a single poll between then and the 2008 election had Dion above 34% support.

        Fast forward to April, 2009. As Harper's coalition crisis bump receded, the Liberals came to lead the Tories in the polls once again. Liberal support across 7 polls ranged from 32-37%, while Tory support ranged from 29-33%. In mid-May, the Conservatives launched the just visiting ads. By late June, Liberal support was down to the low 30s. The attack ads intensified as a Fall election seemingly loomed, driving Ignatieff down to the mid-high 20s. Apart from a few blips (eg. the second prorogation) Ignatieff did not really recover. By the way, that includes his supposedly successful summer tour.

        • Andrew (not PorC)

          Indeed. People are being too optimistic in thinking that intelligence or reasonableness are an entirely effective defense by voters against hundreds of exposures to negative themes about an individual.

          • Ariadne

            Attributing the dip in the polling of liberals to negative ads is misleading. The election coincided with tax deadline, and with Liberals making more spending promises than the NDP, it dinged them badly as people were preparing their tax returns. Listening to those promises, while looking at the amount payable section of one's tax return, was quite sobering. As you might have noticed the liberal's dipping in the poll followed closely to that of the looming tax deadline

          • Andrew (not PorC)

            I was referring to what hoser was talking about: the initial character assasination ads after each Dion and Ignatieff became leaders. I suppose we'll see what the Tories do when the Liberals choose their next leader. My optimistic side would like to believe that we won't hear every five minutes for two or three years how that person is conniving, malicious, unpatriotic, stupid and inept. My realistic side knows that this is too much to hope for.

            On the other hand, I expect Harper to go relatively easy on the NDP.

          • Ariadne

            My apology for posting my comment in the wrong place.

          • KeithBram

            I've seen that comment before, but I fail to be convinced.

        • http://ragingranter.blogspot.com Raging_Ranter

          There were other things going on at that time too. I don't think you can attribute all the movement in the polls to the ads.

  • hosertohoosier

    Some posters above have suggested that the solutions Mr. Coyne offers are unlikely to work – and they are right (and I would add that their being implemented requires the heroic assumption that the same governments that win with negative messages will unilaterally give up using them). I would go further. Negative messages, meanness and savagery are vital cornerstones of our democracy. Negative voting – ie. voting "against" somebody – is an entirely reasonable practice. Indeed, Mr. Coyne's endorsement of Michael Ignatieff in the last election was based on a negative message that Ignatieff had put forth (that Harper was an affront to democracy).

    It is not the maliciousness of political parties that drives negative ads, but the voracious appetites of the public for them. To proscribe negative messages is to deny people a legitimate avenue of information about the consequences of their vote. If ads are fraudulent, there are means of recourse (eg. the Tory yes yes yes ad, and the Liberal misquote of Harper). Living in a democracy means accepting the wisdom of one's fellow man, for better or for worse. And indeed, when negative ads are incorrect or truly wrong-hearted, they tend to backfire like the face ad, or like "soldiers with guns".

    People like to wax nostalgically about the "golden age" of discourse. When one looks back, it is hard to find such a moment. Macdonald won repeated majorities by accusing his opponents of being closet annexationists – at least the present crop of Tory ads only hint at this. And as far as negative ads ruining lives – I'm not sure I'd call being hired by U of T two days after losing an election a "ruined life". Indeed, if you think negative advertising is problematic, the hurt feelings of politicians is probably the most insignificant reason for reform I can think of.

    • Iccyh

      I love this argument, but I suspect that may just be the contrarian in me.

      There is one part of this that makes me very wary, though that has to do mainly with the specifics of this last election:
      The negative ads against Ignatieff ran for a very extended time outside the election period. By doing this, the Tories effectively used their superior financial position to determine the course of the discussion about Michael Ignatieff. While this is certainly within the rules as they're written now, perhaps we should change the rules.

      • http://ragingranter.blogspot.com Raging_Ranter

        I would not be at all disturbed to see election advertising banned outside of the writ period.

        • Yanni

          Sure, but there would still be election advertising on the sly. Especially with the governing party using the media arm of the bureaucracy to promote new programs or tax incentives. So why bother?

          • http://ragingranter.blogspot.com Raging_Ranter

            Yes, the Conservatives have turned that into an art form. The sickening tax credit ads put out each year by the CRA are revolting. "You earned it. So claim it." Oddly enough, they'll mention credits on those ads that were brought in as much as 5 years ago, but not more than that. Hmmm. Why would they be emphasizing old, but not really old credits? Of course, it's to highlight the measures introduced by the Conservatives, while excluding measures brought in by the Liberals.

          • KeithBram

            "So why bother?"

            Well, at least with a ban we should see the end of the relentless onslaught of attack ads between elections. As Ranting Rager points out, getting rid of the "see how good weare at bribing you with your own money" ads would likely continue unabated.

    • s_c_f

      Well argued, and I think you're right. They're necessary. Here's the proof:

      Coyne argues that the attack ads were an assassination of his Ignatieff's character, and thus should not be a part of our culture. Suppose they were true (ie Ignatieff really is that bad, or that the any party at any time had a leader that bad). Suppose we had a culture or a set of regulations that prevented presenting such attack ads. Then the negative behaviour of said leader would essentially go unreported. And that would be worse than anything we have today.

      Therefore, the only real protections that could help are those laws already in place against libel or slander.

      • KCM

        Suppose covers a multitude of sins rather nicely and very conveniently now doesn't it?

    • http://ragingranter.blogspot.com Raging_Ranter

      That's the Warren Kinsella argument in a nutshell. It is impossible to get rid of negative ads. There might well be legitimate messages in them. Although having the word 'VENDU!' fly across the screen in an attack on Stephane Dion was clearly unsportsmanlike.

      • Iccyh

        The thing I like best about this argument is that it incorporates the need to call out advertising that goes too far into it; there is no inconsistency between being supportive of negative ads in principle and thinking that some go too far.

        • http://ragingranter.blogspot.com Raging_Ranter

          And who gets to judge that? What assembly of experts could we possibly expect to rule impartially on such things? Only the voters can make that judgement. As imperfect and flawed as that is. We really need to be careful that our solution isn't worse than the problem. From everything I've seen posted in this thread, all the solutions have the potential to be much, much worse. Eliminating the per-vote subsidy won't cure it either, but at least if people get too disgusted, they can withhold money. They can't withhold an automatic subsidy – not until they get a chance to vote.

          • Iccyh

            I agree that attempting to regulate it would be idiocy, but there's definitely a need for the media and for civic minded individuals to call out politicians when they play dirty.

            As for the rest, I'd say we've covered that ground pretty well, heh.

          • http://ragingranter.blogspot.com Raging_Ranter

            Yes. Not to get the last word in or anything, but I would point out that the Tories crossed the line in 1993, with the infamous Chretien face ad, and they paid a huge price for it. Deservedly so. The Liberals committed a lesser faux pas in 2006 when they leaked an unreleased ad warning us to be afraid of our own soldiers – whom they had just committed to a very dangerous mission in Afghanistan. Don't assume the electorate cannot find its moral compass when it matters. They've shown at least twice that they can.

          • Iccyh

            I entirely agree and suspect we're on the page on these points.

    • john g

      Excellent post as always h2h.

      I liken it somewhat to the tabloids and paparazzi stalking of famous people. Yes it's awful. Yes it's degrading. Yes it insults the intelligence of many people. But it will continue as long the tabloids continue to make handfuls of money from people whose intelligence it doesn't insult; who continue to buy that kind of crap at the grocery checkout. Personally I believe that's the audience that both parties target with negative advertising.

      Negative advertising has been so extremely effective for both parties, particularly over the last 10 years, that I unfortunately don't see it going away any time soon. Negative advertising is primarily what stopped Harper in 2004, to some extent what beat Martin in 2006, and to a large extent what contributed to the defeats of Dion and Ignatieff in the most recent two elections. The Conservatives have been particularly masterful at choosing negative advertising themes that were so effective because both Dion and Ignatieff have essentially lived up them. I can't even begin to imagine the effort and money they must spend on opinion research and focus group testing of this stuff.

      • s_c_f

        because both Dion and Ignatieff have essentially lived up them

        That's the key. They must have an element of truth. If not, they can be damaging to the one producing the ad. But if there is an element of truth, they will be effective. And as you point it below, they cannot be over-the-top as well.

    • john g

      Further to this…some thoughts on negative advertising from Tony Blair, also clipped from Wells' piece that Coyne linked to. Keep in mind that in an interview when he first became PM, Harper indicated Blair as the world leader who at the time most impressed him.

      The Conservative staffer’s laudable effort to specify the precise nature of this sustained assault on the character of a national party leader brought to mind a passage from former British prime minister Tony Blair’s 2010 memoir, A Journey. Blair explains how he did away with a succession of Tory opponents.

      “So I defined [John] Major as weak; [William] Hague as better at jokes than judgment; [Michael] Howard as an opportunist; [David] Cameron as a flip-flop, not knowing where he wanted to go,” Blair writes.

      “Expressed like that, these attacks seem flat, rather mundane almost, and not exactly inspiring—but that’s their appeal. Any one of those charges, if it comes to be believed, is actually fatal. Yes, it’s not like calling your opponent a liar, or a fraud, or a villain, or a hypocrite, but the middle-ground-floating voter kind of shrugs their shoulders at those claims. They don’t chime. They’re too over the top, too heavy, and they represent an insult, not an argument. Whereas the lesser charge, because it’s more accurate and precisely because it’s more low-key, can stick. And if it does, that’s that. Because in each case, it means they’re not a good leader. So game over.”

    • KCM

      "Mr. Coyne's endorsement of Michael Ignatieff in the last election was based on a negative message that Ignatieff had put forth (that Harper was an affront to democracy).

      It is not the maliciousness of political parties that drives negative ads, but the voracious appetites of the public for them."

      Both of those points are highly debatable. Ineed they undermine your whole piece IMO. First off. AC likely made up his own mind and came to conclusions which impelled him reluctantly to vote liberal based on his view of the tories behaviour in Parliament and a lot of related evidence, not merely Ignatieff's messaging.
      As to the second. Polls consistently show Canadians reject NA.

  • Max

    Liberals carried all the wet soggy wood from the Conservs raining on their parade and did so unflinchingly uncomplainingly and with all the requisite nerve of a school chum determined not be deterred from their straight 'A' path by a school yard bully.

    Thats fine if you like rooting for an underdog by nature. If you (heh heh) believe in fairness, equality and substance over l'image/mirage.

    The NDP on the other hand have all the fire. They don't want to toast the toes of the Conservs or put their feet to the fire, they want to burn them. Whole!

    If the NDP succeeds as a whole as a good solid party in Opposition, they need to keep the same people who voted for them at the next time round, and the Liberals need to appeal to the people with voter apathy, regenerate enthusiasm in election voting and the Conservs (haw haw) need to stay the same.

    This is the only way things can ever change. Its if they stay the same. The French have always known this anyway.

    Oh and one more thing: the NDP have to demonstrate that they know the Harperites are chasing economic rainbows and riding unicorns and getting budget advice from faeries thanks to the clout like power of the Liberals, and the Liberals will have the NDP to thank for being a fiery opposition, astute and logical with fine moral sense….and Harper will just grin.

    Knowing the space between them is all he needs to rule. For now there is no turning back. Everything depends on the economy and pay checks and little else it seems. If it suffers, the Libs and P'ers will wrestle for each Conserv looking to change political stripes as well as try to reach people who did not vote.

    Just btw, anyone check the numbers on voter turnout including students?

  • http://ragingranter.blogspot.com Raging_Ranter

    Some of you are suggesting that we do the converse of what Andrew proposes – that is, to ban all donations and have the parties rely only on per-vote subsidies. This is horribly flawed in one respect; it would forever ruin the chances of a new party entering Canadian politics. The Reform Party and the Green Party never would have gotten off the ground under such a voter subsidy regime. If a party needs to attract votes in an election before qualifying for a per-vote subsidy, then we are effectively freezing out all newcomers.

    • Vince Clortho

      Yup, its not like we have had a problem with creating new parties in the last 20 years. (Reform, Alliance, Bloc, Greens)

      Probably more new parties reaching parliament in the last 20 years than any other Western Democracy. And most of them started under the old syestm. Subsidies definitely reward the current players and not encourage the future players. It is true in the economic world and it is true in the political world.

    • Iccyh

      ….so add a limited exemption for new parties.

      Fair point, but it seems to me this could be dealt with really easily.

      • http://ragingranter.blogspot.com Raging_Ranter

        Think about it. At what point to you impose that limit? When they get 2% of the vote? 5%? So parties with almost zero support are allowed to solicit donations, but not those who have a little bit of support? Or parties less than X years old? I don't think such a serious flaw can be fixed with a minor tweak.

        • Iccyh

          I think you're overstating how big a flaw this really is, it isn't like the "donations are necessary for new parties" narrative you're implying even holds in all cases.

          My understanding of how things went with the Greens is that they had exceedingly little support and organization until they ran candidates in every riding and managed to claim the minimum percentage required to qualify for the subsidy simply by being on the ballot everywhere.

          Off the top of my head, I'd say base it on the number of candidates a party has put up for election with a really low ceiling for how much could be solicited in donations. That'd push new parties to use their limited donations to run a full slate nationally and to let the electorate decide. Of course, if something like this were to actually be legislated I'd hope more serious thought would be put into the matter, but it isn't like there is any kind of a shortage of possible solutions to this.

          • http://ragingranter.blogspot.com Raging_Ranter

            And that turns elections themselves into fund-raising activities, does it not? Running a full slate of candidates with the specific goal of qualifying for subsidies, so you can run a more focused campaign next time? I'm having trouble seeing how this could possibly result in a superior outcome.

          • Iccyh

            Really? I'd love to hear about the positive aspects of news parties built by donations and the negatives of new parties that are built via subsidy by running candidates nationally.

            I understand the principled objection to elections as fund raisers (even if I don't buy it), but that's an objection to subsidies generally rather than an issue with new parties specifically.

            Anyway, to reply to the general point:
            When you build via donations, you have to appeal only to your party base. When you build via subsidy, there are direct incentives to making broad appeals to the electorate and to increasing voter turnout.

          • http://ragingranter.blogspot.com Raging_Ranter

            I'll address your point specifically. You do have to appeal to your base. Absolutely. But, given that donations are strictly limited per individual, you must also work to broaden your base. A narrow base of wealthy benefactors does nothing for you if they're only allowed to give $1500 per year (or whatever the current limit is). The very act of broadening your base is what allows you to reach out to more people, to sell your message, and perhaps most importantly, to encourage reciprocal participation in the process.

            Participating in democracy is about so much more than just voting once every for years. Fund raising, with limits placed on donor size to limit undue influence from powerful sources, is a vital part of this process. I am not at all confident that this can be replaced. How, for example, can you be sure you even know what motivates your base if you don't know what motivates them to write that $50 cheque? Polling and focus groups can only go so far.

          • s_c_f

            You're right. If a party starts with a group of 10 people, it's not going far if that group is limited to $1000 each. People should have the freedom to spend their own money on the things they believe in.

            I simply don't buy the argument that people should not be allowed to spend too much because they'll have undue influence. That's only true in a world of corruption and kickbacks.

          • Iccyh

            …and appointments and Senate seats.

          • s_c_f

            Well yes. In fact I think I contradicted myself a little due to Raging's strong arguments, since I agreed with Crit earlier that raised caps would be ideal, and you've brought me back towards that position.

            I suppose that means I am somewhat ambivalent to the caps issue and the undue influence issue. I am not averse to the current system of caps on donations, but I think the caps should be higher.

            However, the one issue I feel strongly about is party subsidies. And I am especially strongly opposed to the vote subsidy, because it ties a legitimate and beneficial act of voting, which should not be tied to anything else, to the act of handing over tax dollars to parties, which is NOT in any way the proper use of taxpayer money. There are also all sorts of distortions in that subsidy, such as the act of favouring the incumbent, and the act of subsidizing parties today based on their performance prior to the last election.

            I am also opposed to the party subsidies that occur in all other forms. Taxes should not be used to fund parties, I feel it is wrong.

          • Iccyh

            I respect your position and actually agree with much of it. The issue I have is that I don't think moving to a donations-only environment removes the distortions (I suspect it may emphasize them in some cases) you list while it also changes the relationship between parties and party membership by increasing the pressure on members to donate, and may increase polarization by giving parties incentive to play to their base.

            On reflection, I suppose it isn't necessarily donations that I am opposed to, perhaps it is instead the effect of money on politics in general. In another comment, I'd proposed eliminating donations and having a low cap on the maximum subsidy payout, but I can't see any reason why it couldn't be the other way around: remove the subsidy and cap the maximum amount of money a party can collect in donations.

          • s_c_f

            Crit Reasoning pointed out a flaw in a max cap on donations. It could prevent an individual from making any donation at all (because the cap has been reached). If an individual wants to contribute, he should be allowed to, especially when everyone is lamenting the lack of engagement by the voters. Rejecting someone's donation is not a way to engage someone.

            Thinking about it some more, I don't think there should be an overall cap, just an individual cap, whether it's per vote or per individual (and I've already described why I think that the vote subsidy is wrong, so that makes it per individual).

            If a party has a large number of individuals that wish to contribute, then the party should be able to reap the benefits.

          • Iccyh

            Possibly excepting the last sentence, everything in your first paragraph is also true in a subsidy situation only more so. Votes are limited, so parties must work to reach out and engage more voters.

            With regards to that last sentence and the second paragraph:
            As I've mentioned elsewhere, I have very mixed views of political parties. I view them as unaccountable and opaque, even though I think they are necessary. I am unconvinced that party leadership want their membership participating in party business, and I am unconvinced that anyone should ever donate to a political party accordingly. I have a hard time being sympathetic to the idea that donations are a necessary and useful part of the political process given the issues I have with parties.

            Even were parties to be more accountable and transparent, I still would have difficulty being convinced that fund-raising should be one of the primary forms of engagement between parties and their members, which it would almost certainly be. I would also not be easily convinced that money should be a necessary part of party participation.

          • http://ragingranter.blogspot.com Raging_Ranter

            As for parties, if you want to see what life would be like with no parties, take a look at your local city council. Any city council. The only thing worse for democracy than a party system is a system that does not allow parties.

          • Iccyh

            I'll link to my other post, as much of what I'd like to say in reply is already contained there.

            Parties being necessary doesn't make parties as they are now "good".

    • Ariadne

      Encouraging dependency on government political subsidies will make politicians deaf and blind on the real concerns of the constituents they serve. It leads to greater risks of MPs developing tunnel vision on party's ascendancy or positioning concerns instead of their real purpose in being there.

      Subsidies also encourages negative attack ads as a fast and easy means of bringing an opponent down instead of formulating sound policies which would resonate more with the voters they are trying to woo. Afterall it is easier to waste err spend money when it is easily available. If political subsidies continue, voters will become just an afterthought – as a ballot ticker during Election Day and completely ignored the morning after. Let politicians earn their hefty salaries, benefits, and pensions by pounding their feet and opening their ears to one grass root supporter at a time. I believe this will lead to closer relationship/trust formed between MPs and constituents as oppose to party subsidies. Politicians should monetarily depend entirely on grass roots donations.

  • Dot

    AC – you are a far more interesting writer to me when you tackle these types of issues – instead of the polling/horserace/strategy PPG vortex you have increasingly gotten caught up in the foreseaable past. Well done.

    Belatedly, congrats on your column on who you were voting for (my sentiments completely). I still think someone should look a bit closer at what happened to the Blue-Greens (esp in Ontario) – a group that Preston Manning has spoken about in the past (in Alberta politics) and that I can identify with as well.

    • http://ragingranter.blogspot.com Raging_Ranter

      What are Blue-Greens? I'm afraid I'm not familiar with that term. Is that conservative environmentalists? If that's the case, I'd likely be one of them, though I reject the term "environmentalist" as it has become too loaded and too associated with the activist left wing. I prefer to think of myself as a 'conservationist'. I would dearly love to see more focus on common sense, achievable conservation and anti-pollution goals, rather than the mega-project "green energy" cluster-pucks that have come to symbolize the environmental policies of all parties.

      • Dot

        There was a good interview here in Macleans I think, a few years ago (2007?) with Manning. I don't have time to search, but give it a try. He has made reference to this elsewhere, in interviews. He also focuses, as you do, on the "conservationist" aspect.

  • JSC

    I’m fine with limiting Free Speech.
    Like in the argument that you can’t shout FIRE! in a crowded Theater.
    I’m sick of being Lied too, whether it be by Politicians, Businesses or Advertisers.
    Laws and Penalties against Lying would have my support.

    • http://ragingranter.blogspot.com Raging_Ranter

      And that would be great until said laws were used to quell legitimate debate or opinion. Then suddenly we'd be wishing we had done nothing of the sort. Sick of being lied to? Do what I do. Stop watching TV or listening to the radio or reading the papers.

      The Internet has been a real boon in that respect. If something outrageous or momentous happens, you'll hear about it. And the Internet allows you burrow into the heart of a matter while filtering out the propaganda and lies and screeching and other assorted noise.

      True, some folks have used the Internet to surround themselves with like-minded zealots and partisan hacks, and becoming even more narrow-minded and ignorant in the process. Which is why I no longer blog for the Blogging Tories, and rarely ever read or post comments there anymore. (Note: There are some good and reasonable BT bloggers, as there are with other parties. I'm not tarring them all with the same brush. ) An echo chamber is something I do not need. I prefer to be challenged and to challenge in return. The alternative is group-think and ignorance.

      • Mike T.

        We've done an excellent job with defamation and hate speech. There's every indication an impartial body could come up with a workable test and apply it. The biggest issue is speed – getting a full hearing on any issue can take a long time, even the speediest hearings would take far longer than an election campaign.

        • http://ragingranter.blogspot.com Raging_Ranter

          I would be more afraid of said "impartial body" than the worst negative ads the pols could offer up. Much more afraid.

          • Mike T.

            Theoretical concerns aside, I have never seen anyone who says hate speech laws are a danger to freedom of speech generally demonstrate a single example of misidentified hate speech (some try to name boisson, but even that was overturned on appeal). We're obviously capable of setting rules for fair discourse in political advertising. But we probably can't do so quickly and effectively enough to have it matter in a campaign setting.

      • JSC

        “Sick of being lied to? Do what I do. Stop watching TV or listening to the radio or reading the papers.”

        I like that idea. I use to live like that years ago when I lived in the Far North. I completely missed the Falklands War. Since paying attention to world & national events and the media, I’ve come to really think very negatively about humans in general.

        • http://ragingranter.blogspot.com Raging_Ranter

          Not without good reason. Media is infotainment, not information. A famous economist (last name of Simon I think) said this about the media:

          We don't consumer information. Information consumes us.

          That is not to say the media should be ignored completely and forever. But I prefer to scan the Internet in the days and months and even years after an event happens, when cooler heads can prevail and more of the story becomes clear. So many media sensations ("Vaccine crisis" anyone?) turn out to be such a complete fabrication, it is just insulting.

  • Guest

    Thank you for pointing out the implications of what what was the most devastating part of that article.

  • keith c

    lame column coyne. Ignatieff IS an opportunist. The "bad man" stuff is just hyperbole. These operatives are selling Coke vs. Pepsi and it's such a big deal when they sound like the Mad Men characters when doing it?

  • Twisted_Mentat

    I'm rather perturbed by Paul Wells' inability to break this story while it mattered – during the election campaign. I'm a self-defining Red Tory and maybe I'm a bit of an idealist at heart but… hell, when someone admits to you they're constructing a narrative ("Michael Ignatieff, in our narrative, is a political opportunist…") shouldn't that raise some mental red flags!? Here they are, telling you that that they've been carefully constructing this negative narrative (especially so it doesn't overlap with the Dion smears) and Paul Wells and the Maclean's editors deem it necessary to sit on it until after the election is over!?

    We've moved out of the realm of supposition on this, folks – the talking heads and "power panels" previously could only speculate and imply that such thoughts motivated those in the Conservative war room. But here it is, in black and white; in one's and zero's; for all who read Maclean's to see. Did Paul Wells not publish this out of some kind of fear that he might influence the outcome of the election? It just seems bizarre; was it not merely months ago that the collective bubble was scratching its head at the intensified Conservative attack ads?

    Astounding that Wells waited until now to release this quote. Astounding.

    • Iccyh

      I recall seeing or hearing a statement to the effect that interviews were granted on the condition that they wouldn't be published until after the election. If so, Wells' and Maclean's hands were tied.

      • http://ragingranter.blogspot.com Raging_Ranter

        Exactly. They never would have been so candid with him if he would have gone out and published it the next day. This is standard fare. I remember reading in Trudeau's biography how he tricked the NDP into rejecting his budget and triggering an election in 1974 (or thereabouts). Up until then, the NDP had supported Trudeau's minority. Trudeau deliberately inserted a poison pill into the budget to get his election; an election he could then blame on the Opposition. He got his majority as a result. Sound familiar? You can bet that Liberals strategists NEVER would have admitted to this on the campaign trail. Backroom strategizing has been going on forever. We should be relieved that in fact we do eventually learn about it at all. We certainly aren't going to hear about it as it happens.

        • KCM

          Good points all. But a moralist like me has to point out that the two cases you cite arn't entirely analogous. Trudeau didn't run a Broadbent is evil and malicious AA campaign at the same time.[ memories fuzzy. It was Ed wasn't it?] Not just trying to be partisan; who knows how far PET might have been willing to go had he been boxed in to the extent H was by having no real natural allies in a minority P. But nevertheless things are as they are and nothing else. Harper has essentially broken new moral ground here with Dion and Ignatieff, even if the liberals gave him the plough. It remains a worry for me at least. I'm with the likes of Coyne and Russell. There has been little real price paid or meaningful consequences for SH's strategic use of disrepect for process in the last parliament in particular, and throughout his whole minority tenure. I think your right that the public has taken note in its own way and still reserves the ultimate right to punish him at a more appropriate time. For me at least that's a pretty ephemeral reed to cling to.

          • KCM

            ephemeral…transitory or brief…learn something new every day. Slender would have worked just fine. G.O. would not have been best pleased.

  • bergkamp

    "But I can’t recall anything on this scale, or this vicious."

    Libs leaking info about Layton's late night visit to brothel that was being investigated for underage prostitutes was at least as vicious as anything Cons did and it didn't cost them anything, either. Negative tactics are expensive or cheap, depending.

    Also find it curious how many journos and other citizens think pols are Brahmins who can't be questioned and deserve total privacy while demanding private citizens answer the most private of questions in census.

    What you call vicious or loathsome, Coyne, is considered to be uncomfortable truth by many others. Voters discriminate between what they find acceptable/non-acceptable, '93 Chretien ad is an example of public actually being repulsed, but people across parties have been receptive to Con ads pointing out Iggy's time abroad and why did he return. I know many believe that Cons have great mind control abilities through their ads but they really don't.

    Msm is meant to "Comfort the afflicted, and afflict the comfortable" but they seem to have completely forgotten that. Now journos think their job is to protect pols from the raging hoi polloi, they have completely abandoned one of their main functions.

    • s_c_f

      Now journos think their job is to protect pols from the raging hoi polloi

      Only when it's a Liberal professor. When it's someone they don't like, they don't mind the character assassination. The character assassinations of Manning, Day and Harper far exceed anything done to Ignatieff, in part because the media were participating in it when it was a Conservative. Even this campaign, a large slice of the journalists out there (a couple of them write for Maclean's) were doing their outright best to attack the characters of politicians, primarily Conservative politicians.

      • Mike T.

        no.

        • Bill D. Cat

          yes.

        • http://ragingranter.blogspot.com Raging_Ranter

          Yes.

        • bergkamp

          No.

          • KCM

            Maybe.

          • Leo

            Yes.

            Manning changes his hair style, gets rid of his glasses. oh, and the pitch of his voice when he got going. Yep, nice personal attacks on a truly decent man.

          • KCM

            No

            …what were we talking about anyway? I haven't read the top of the thread yet. Just jump'n on the ole bandwagon for the hell of it.

  • danR

    This story underscores my repeated point that there is no Conservative/Harper 'hidden agenda'. Their strategists have openly shared with reporters their intentions. Perhaps this is the reason for Stockwell's leaving. He has been portrayed, not without reason, as a backward fundamentalist with absolutist moral imperatives, or ignorant flat-earth beliefs, and the geography of the Niagara.

    But perhaps he left in the realization that this once (in its own way) very upright and principled party has hardly a meaningful vestige of its previous religious conservatism, or any moral or ethical framework in any way whatsoever. Not that it's 'immoral' or 'unethical', but amoral, mechanically pragmatist, non-ethical.

    Within the Harper mind-set, he did not 'lie' about Guergis' knowledge of the reasons for dismissal.

    He simply made statements that would be effective in removing an optics-problem for the Conservatives, as well as someone who was no longer an effective fellow-termite in the efficient running of the Government of Harper. Nothing 'immoral' about that, nothing defamatory against her.

    I imagine Harper and the other party members were scratching their collective cogwheels in puzzlement: "Why doesn't she understand she is malfunctioning, cannot recalibrate; do a diagnostic self-check, and therefore delete herself?'
    .

    • MTB

      Thanks for my morning laugh. That was terrific.

    • http://ragingranter.blogspot.com Raging_Ranter

      Before the media and Opposition started holding her up as a victim of Conservative malice, they were screaming for her resignation. That included a completely false story about an alleged "meltdown" and verbal abuse of airline employees in Charlottetown. The media and the Opposition feasted at the still-living carcass of her political career precisely until they realized that the Conservatives themselves had joined them at the dinner table. If you're wondering why nobody outside the media paid much attention to Guergis during the campaign, and why her riding did not show up en mass to vote for her, it's because they have longer memories than you give them credit for.

  • Leo

    JMHO but this was the start of the 'nasty' stuff. Manning was ridiculed when he got rid of the glasses, changed his hair style and of course, the pitch of his voice. He is one of the most decent men I have had the pleasure listening to.

  • Mike T.

    Kay should have named names if he was going to try to change it into a Liberal smear 48 hours before voting. Anything is possible of course, still…

    • http://ragingranter.blogspot.com Raging_Ranter

      Journalists have a long standing practice of not naming names if the source wishes to remain anonymous. In fact, they've been known to go to jail to protect sources. It's a fundamental principle of journalism in fact. While they also have an obligation to limit their use of "unnamed sources" – an obligation few live up to these days – they certainly are not in the habit of exposing those informants who wish not to be named, and for good reason.

  • Katherine

    It would improve political advertising if we required the party leaders to say, in each ad, "I'm [insert name here] and I approve this message", like in US campaigns. They should take responsibility for the things they say.

    • http://ragingranter.blogspot.com Raging_Ranter

      Yes. It would. Because no one wants to be associated with the particularly nasty messages.

  • KCM

    Keep on plugging away at the moral stuff Andrew…somewhere…sometime it has to start sinking in or we are in deep doo doo, given all the tools and wonderful new toys all the parties have now. Whoever thought it was a good idea to let the nerds and the geeks run the show anyway? We've all seen the movies. Their sole motivation is to shaft the rest of us for making HS and JHS such a nightmare for them. Let the blue collar guys run the show i say. What's the worst we could do…insist the rewards roughly equate with the effort a person makes and equality of opportunity be more then buzz word/phrase…oh, and free beer for all of course.

From Macleans