How Dutch women got to be the happiest in the world

Few Dutch women work full-time—does this mean they’re powerless, or simply smarter than the rest of us?

by Claire Ward on Friday, August 19, 2011 8:00am - 73 Comments
The feminism happiness axis

Photo by: Thomas Schlijper

Like many Dutch women, Marie-Louise van Haeren views herself as liberated. “Every woman in Holland can do whatever she wants with her life,” says Van Haeren, 52, who lives just outside of Rotterdam and rides her bicycle or the train to work three days a week at a police academy, where she counsels students. She has worked part-time her entire career, as have almost all of her friends—married or unmarried, kids or no kids—save one or two who logged more hours out of financial necessity. Van Haeren, who wasn’t married until last year and has no children, says she’s worked part-time “to have time to do things that matter to me, live the way I want. To stay mentally and physically healthy and happy.”

Many women in the Netherlands seem to share similar views, valuing independence over success in the workplace. In 2001, nearly 60 per cent of working Dutch women were employed part-time, compared to just 20 per cent of Canadian women. Today, the number is even higher, hovering around 75 per cent. Some, like Van Haeren, view this as progress, evidence of personal freedom and a commitment to a balanced lifestyle.

Others, however, view it as an alarming signal that women are no longer seeking equality in the workplace. Writer and economist Heleen Mees, for example, argues that the stereotypical Dutch woman has become complacent. “Even at the University of Amsterdam—the most progressive university we have—I had a 22-year-old student say, ‘Why is it your business if my wife wants to bake cookies?’ and the female students agreed with him! I was like, what’s happening here?”

Mees runs an organization called Women on Top that strives to push more Dutch women into ambitious career paths. Its slogan is “Out with the part-time feminism!” and it points to part-time work as a major factor in a lingering pay gap. Then there’s the matter of principle. “I think highly educated women have a moral obligation to take top positions, to set an example by their choices,” says Mees. “When women just stay at home or work part-time, they don’t reach the top, and they set bad examples for their daughters and daughters’ daughters.”

But Dutch women appear deaf to the siren call of the workplace. Asked whether they’d like to increase their hours, just four per cent said yes, compared to 25 per cent of French women. And while across the Channel, British media are heralding the resurgence of feminism—last weekend, some 500 women crowded into a feminist training camp, UK Feminista, to be trained in direct action and activism—in Holland, women like Van Haeren baldly proclaim no further need for the movement. “Feminism wasn’t necessary anymore by the time I grew up,” she says. “In my eyes, it was a thing of the past.”

The relationship between personal lifestyle choices and the socio-economic standing of women has been under the microscope in Holland ever since the publication of Dutch Women Don’t Get Depressed in 2008. Ellen de Bruin, who patterned her book after Mireille Guiliano’s bestseller French Women Don’t Get Fat, began by defining the stereotypical Dutch woman: naturally beautiful with a no-fuss sense of style, she rides her bike to fetch the groceries, has ample time with her kids and husband, takes art classes in the middle of the week, and spends leisurely afternoons drinking coffee with her friends. She loves to work part-time and does not earn as much as her husband, but she’s fine with that—he takes care of the bills. The book went on to note that Dutch women rank consistently low, compared to those in other Western countries, in terms of representation in top positions in business and government—and rank consistently near the top in terms of happiness and well-being. In fact, just about everyone in Holland seems pleased with the status quo; in 2009, the Netherlands ranked highest of all OECD countries in terms of overall well-being.

Understandably, the notion that there’s a correlation between women’s relative powerlessness and their happiness rubs people like Heleen Mees the wrong way. Yet others frame the correlation differently, arguing that Dutch women have smashed the vicious circle of guilt that traps other Western women, to embrace a progressive form of work-life balance.

Sarah Sands, of the U.K.’s Independent, writes, “Perhaps [Dutch women] are happy because they don’t feel guilty for falling short of perfection. We are torn to shreds between the American and the Mediterranean models of womanhood. On one hand, we are boardroom feminists expecting equality of expectation and outcome. On the other, we are matriarchs, wanting to run model kitchens and walk through meadows with bands of children.”

Or to put it another way: yes, the personal is political—but it’s also pretty personal, too, and happiness has to count for something. As Germaine Greer opined in a recent interview on CBC Radio’s Q, “I think you have to understand that the corporate world is not the only world, and if women are going to enjoy their working lives, they have to arrive at a different paradigm. Life in the corporation is not all that much fun.”

Van Haeren echoes these sentiments. “Dutch women do not aspire to top positions because they do not want to encourage the values of the business models of today’s world. It is a silent resistance movement,” she says. “Maybe this will turn out to be the fourth wave of feminism. Women protect the possibility that one day we’ll wake up to realize that life is not all about acquiring more material wealth, power, status. Many Dutch women that I know want to stay sane, happy, relaxed.”

Eline Duterloo, 48, agrees. “I think women just simply do not look for 100 per cent fulfillment in their work. Women see themselves in a lot of different roles that they find more important to them: being a good friend, a good daughter, a good mother, a good sister, a good wife. That is why they are not 100 per cent competitive, and so do not reach the top, because in their hearts they do not really care about it enough.” Duterloo has a husband (who works full-time) and three daughters, aged 21, 19, and 16; she recently started working full-time as legal counsel to a major American corporation after years of part-time work.

Author Ellen de Bruin is puzzled that “everybody seems to have an opinion about how Dutch women are leading their lives, and some say it’s enlightened and others say it’s old-fashioned. What I find funny is the point of view that somehow we have found the solution for this work-life imbalance. What’s important is that women in the Netherlands are free to choose whatever they want to do.”

Social structures, however, undoubtedly play a role in what choices are available. Generous social programs make it possible for a two-parent family to get by quite nicely on a single full-time income. And yet, a strain of social conservatism persists in Holland: daycare is expensive, and shops close at 6 p.m. on weekdays and are closed entirely on Sundays—less than conducive to the daily juggling of full-time work and raising a family.

Women aren’t alone in choosing to opt out of the full-time rat race. More men are working part-time than ever before, and society is beginning to reward fathers for pushing back against the system to make time for their families. Last year, Lof, a magazine for working mothers, awarded a “Working Dad Prize” to a man who fought his employer in court and won the right to work part-time. And this year, businessman Rutger Groot Wassink was acknowledged by the government with a “Modern Man Prize” for his work in co-founding a campaign that promotes “Papadag” (Daddy day)—a day off for working fathers to be with their kids.

It’s hard to argue that people who choose the lives they want, and opt for happiness rather than titles, are not empowered. (I grew up in the Netherlands with a Dutch mother and a Canadian father and came of age watching my female relatives—who hail from educated, middle-class families—repeatedly prioritize free time over career progress and money.) Nevertheless, Mees argues that striving for happiness is slowing down progress in the women’s movement. “Happiness is overrated. It’s defined as the absence of problems. But it’s good to have challenges in your life. I believe in another kind of strength that women should have.”

De Bruin disagrees. “I think that’s such a strange argument. I hear it all the time. At some point, happiness is everybody’s ultimate goal. Everybody is seeking a way to live their own life in the most satisfying manner.”

In 1986, Betty Friedan, author of The Feminine Mystique, came under fire when she told the New York Times, “What we need are real choices. And I don’t want to hear women saying one choice is more feminist than another.”

Perhaps women in the Netherlands have achieved that vision of real choices. Certainly, the prevailing cultural attitude seems to be that one choice—say, working part-time instead of striving for the corner office—isn’t better than another. Whatever this says about the current state of feminism, it is evidence of a certain type of independence: in Holland, it’s every woman for herself.

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  • souto mc

    “‘Why is it your business if my wife wants to bake cookies?’ and the
    female students agreed with him! I was like, what’s happening here?”

    This made me laugh.

    I’m a woman, I’m all for women equality in terms of women having equal access and opportunities as men do, being equal in the status of a citizen, with rights and obligations that are the same. But I don’t consider myself a feminist, because unavoidably you get a picture of a woman like Ms. Heleen Mees. What’s wrong with baking cookies? I love taking care of my home and family. There’s nothing more ridiculous than a woman freaking out because a man opened the door for her. It shows ignorance, and worse, really low self-esteem. To say that a woman highly educated who chooses to be there for her family is giving a bad example to her daughters is outright absurd. A woman can be a (good) influence anywhere she is – in a top position of a company or not. Chances are, that by not being overwhelmed by a crazy around-the-clock work schedule, she might be able to use her knowledge and influence a lot more efficiently than otherwise. Her priorities are, in my humble opinion, very misplaced.

    • Anonymous

      I’m flipping through my feminism 101 text book, and I don’t see anything about not being allowed to bake cookies or have doors opened for me. Where did you get the idea that feminism had anything to do with baking restrictions?

      • Anonymous

        Lots of women who want to be stay at home moms report being harassed and humiliated by feminist women who don’t consider that proper.

        • Anonymous

          The reverse it true also. Dr. Laura Schlessinger, somewhat ironically, built a career on it. It’s called the Mommy Wars, and it doesn’t prove any kind of point about feminism.

        • Anonymous

          The reverse it true also. Dr. Laura Schlessinger, somewhat ironically, built a career on it. It’s called the Mommy Wars, and it doesn’t prove any kind of point about feminism.

    • Joan

      Agree; this is the problem with “feminism”.

  • souto mc

    “‘Why is it your business if my wife wants to bake cookies?’ and the
    female students agreed with him! I was like, what’s happening here?”

    This made me laugh.

    I’m a woman, I’m all for women equality in terms of women having equal access and opportunities as men do, being equal in the status of a citizen, with rights and obligations that are the same. But I don’t consider myself a feminist, because unavoidably you get a picture of a woman like Ms. Heleen Mees. What’s wrong with baking cookies? I love taking care of my home and family. There’s nothing more ridiculous than a woman freaking out because a man opened the door for her. It shows ignorance, and worse, really low self-esteem. To say that a woman highly educated who chooses to be there for her family is giving a bad example to her daughters is outright absurd. A woman can be a (good) influence anywhere she is – in a top position of a company or not. Chances are, that by not being overwhelmed by a crazy around-the-clock work schedule, she might be able to use her knowledge and influence a lot more efficiently than otherwise. Her priorities are, in my humble opinion, very misplaced.

  • Anonymous

    The whole point of feminism was for women to have choices…that it wasn’t a lock-step march into a pre-determined role.

    The role is decided by the individual…but it must involve equality, legally and financially….and not be looked down on as inferior.

    • http://www.facebook.com/alex.skochinski Alex Skochinski

      Here here!

      Its all about self determination. “feminism” to me has often been trading a  predetermined gender role for another.

      • Anonymous

        Well  it’s all ‘predetermined’ culturally and has been for a couple of thousand years.  It’ll take time for us to move away from both those roles, and move on to something new.

  • Anonymous

    Sounds like Dutch women are hitting the final and most rewarding step in Maslow’s Hierarchy of Needs – Self-Actualization.   Fine place to be, good for them!!!

  • modster99

    “Even at the University of Amsterdam—the most progressive
    university we have—I had a 22-year-old student say, ‘Why is it your business if
    my wife wants to bake cookies?’ and the female students agreed with him! I was
    like, what’s happening here?”

    Then there’s the matter of principle. “I think highly
    educated women have a moral obligation to take top positions, to set an example
    by their choices,” says Mees. “When women just stay at home or work part-time,
    they don’t reach the top, and they set bad examples for their daughters and
    daughters’ daughters.”

     

    Wow – I guess in this ladies version of feminism, all women
    are equal and free, but they have to do what she wants, not what they might
    want. . .Why can she not see how diametrically opposed the two ideas are?

  • Anonymous

    Happiness is an inside job and how we find that happiness is an individual choice Ms Mees….”.Happiness is over rated” is the most ridiculous, seriously twisted thing I have heard in my life!  Happiness brings about balance and peace in the soul which leads to greater things than becoming president of a large company.  It is not our obligation to be full time working(outside the home)  mothers, it is our obligation to contribute to the world in the best way that we feel we can..and if that means staying home and baking cookies….then thats our choice.  Isn’t feminism about choices?

  • Anonymous

    Happiness is an inside job and how we find that happiness is an individual choice Ms Mees….”.Happiness is over rated” is the most ridiculous, seriously twisted thing I have heard in my life!  Happiness brings about balance and peace in the soul which leads to greater things than becoming president of a large company.  It is not our obligation to be full time working(outside the home)  mothers, it is our obligation to contribute to the world in the best way that we feel we can..and if that means staying home and baking cookies….then thats our choice.  Isn’t feminism about choices?

    • Anonymous

      Feminism is only about choices when a woman chooses Feminist-approved directions for her life. Feminism, especially second-wave feminism, has been about pushing women away from family life. “No woman should be authorized to stay at home and raise her children.
      Society should be totally different. Women should not have that choice,
      precisely because if there is such a choice, too many women will make
      that one.” -Simone De Beauvoir

      After decades of Feminism, women report increased unhappiness (link: http://www.nber.org/papers/w14969)

      The Feminist response? “Who said that feminism was about your happiness?” (link: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/pamela-haag-phd/feminism-happiness_b_830221.html)

      • Anonymous

        Your post reveals more about your ignorance of feminism than any response I could possibly offer.

    • Anonymous

      People who think that happiness is overrated are people who are bored, not happy. Or they believe that the natural state of humanity is conflict and war. 

  • Anonymous

    I suspect Dutch women’s choices have very little to do with feminism and everything to with a very generous social safety net, which allows women to make the choice to work part time.

    • Anonymous

      Where does the money for the “generous social safety net” come from?  It’s not as though governments have money trees.  They have to take the money from the private sector, in the Dutch case from what sound like single earner families.  So what sense does it make for a government middle man to tax the male earner heavily, take a cut for itself, then spend money so his wife can stay home?  Presumably the real explanation is that social costs are kept down by families remaining intact and raising their own children.  Therefore the government doesn’t have to tax as heavily to provide social programs that families provide themselves and a single earner can support his family and his wife’s choice to eschew full time paid work.  Perhaps Holland also does not need to employ a massive government bureaucracy to administer activities better handled by families?  The Dutch may well have figured out the lunacy of both parents on a career treadmill farming out their children to strangers to raise both during their marriage and post-divorce.  Confiscatory taxes for government provision of what families can deliver better make little sense.

    • Anonymous

      Where does the money for the “generous social safety net” come from?  It’s not as though governments have money trees.  They have to take the money from the private sector, in the Dutch case from what sound like single earner families.  So what sense does it make for a government middle man to tax the male earner heavily, take a cut for itself, then spend money so his wife can stay home?  Presumably the real explanation is that social costs are kept down by families remaining intact and raising their own children.  Therefore the government doesn’t have to tax as heavily to provide social programs that families provide themselves and a single earner can support his family and his wife’s choice to eschew full time paid work.  Perhaps Holland also does not need to employ a massive government bureaucracy to administer activities better handled by families?  The Dutch may well have figured out the lunacy of both parents on a career treadmill farming out their children to strangers to raise both during their marriage and post-divorce.  Confiscatory taxes for government provision of what families can deliver better make little sense.

      • Anonymous

        The Dutch are really a conservative, family-oriented people. They have realized that happy children grow into happy adults who in turn raise happy children. A higher percentage of them (about 60%) also go to church than other Europeans. 

        We Canadians need only look across the border to the United States to see that the mad pursuit of money and pleasure isn’t the be-all of existence. It’s hard to have any quality time with your children if both parents are working 40 hours or more, because you need to spend lots of quantity time with children to get any quality time. 

        • Anonymous

          And underneath it the mad pursuit of gadgets and gizmos and boats and trailers and a house that ten times bigger than they need. . . . and on and on. Having some Dutch ancestry, I believe that life can be simpler than we think.  Do all those women out there really need to be chained to a desk? Perhaps somewhere but most working women. to steal from Thoreau, ‘live lives of quiet desperation.’.   

        • Anonymous

          And underneath it the mad pursuit of gadgets and gizmos and boats and trailers and a house that ten times bigger than they need. . . . and on and on. Having some Dutch ancestry, I believe that life can be simpler than we think.  Do all those women out there really need to be chained to a desk? Perhaps somewhere but most working women. to steal from Thoreau, ‘live lives of quiet desperation.’.   

        • Utrecht Resident

          Sam’s claim that 60% of the Dutch go to church is incorrect. The actual figure for regular church-goers is under 20%. If you exclude the 6% who are Muslim, the number drops even more.  It is true that the Dutch are conservative, but they’re NOT overall religious. [I think the assumption that conservative and religious automatically go together is a North American viewpoint.]

        • Utrecht Resident

          Sam’s claim that 60% of the Dutch go to church is incorrect. The actual figure for regular church-goers is under 20%. If you exclude the 6% who are Muslim, the number drops even more.  It is true that the Dutch are conservative, but they’re NOT overall religious. [I think the assumption that conservative and religious automatically go together is a North American viewpoint.]

          • Dhusss

            …maybe if they count the number that are a member of a Church…

            Dutch parents used to register their children right after birth and the Church keeps counting you (and on you donations) forever. Or you must actively ‘unscribe’

          • Dhusss

            …maybe if they count the number that are a member of a Church…

            Dutch parents used to register their children right after birth and the Church keeps counting you (and on you donations) forever. Or you must actively ‘unscribe’

      • Anonymous

        That’s a lovely exercise in magical thinking but in fact the Dutch do have a generous social system, much more so than Canada, and yes, Virgina, it is based on corporate and personal taxes. Dutch families who use formal child care arrangements are entitled to a childcare allowance. Their child care act stipulates that the government, parents and employers must contribute to childcare costs, and this is partially funded by a levy on employers. They also provide healthcare and very low cost post-secondary education, and low cost housing – in many large Dutch cities, social housing can comprise up to 50% of the housing stock. (Incidentally, the subsidized housing rate in free-wheeling, uber-capitalist Hong Kong is a similar 48%). So it’s easy to extrapolate that living in cheap housing, with cheap childcare, and no heavy student loans to pay off could lead to women being able to spend more time with their families. If only our own government would figure that out.

      • Anonymous

        That’s a lovely exercise in magical thinking but in fact the Dutch do have a generous social system, much more so than Canada, and yes, Virgina, it is based on corporate and personal taxes. Dutch families who use formal child care arrangements are entitled to a childcare allowance. Their child care act stipulates that the government, parents and employers must contribute to childcare costs, and this is partially funded by a levy on employers. They also provide healthcare and very low cost post-secondary education, and low cost housing – in many large Dutch cities, social housing can comprise up to 50% of the housing stock. (Incidentally, the subsidized housing rate in free-wheeling, uber-capitalist Hong Kong is a similar 48%). So it’s easy to extrapolate that living in cheap housing, with cheap childcare, and no heavy student loans to pay off could lead to women being able to spend more time with their families. If only our own government would figure that out.

    • Anonymous

      I am a firm believer in the social safety net. If people could work part time while making enough to live on and not have to worry about whether the kids get off to school on time and eat right, we would all be better off. There’s a lot to be said for baking cookies. 

      The problem is, not enough people want to pay for good crèches. Well, you get what you pay for. If you don’t want to pay for anything, nothing is what you will get. 

  • Anonymous

    Love that these women are being so true to themselves and bringing balance and joy to their lives in ways that are meaningful to them. I could use more of their outlook in my insanely busy life!

  • Anonymous

    I have many Dutch cousins and travel to the Netherlands often.  The women do seem happier and less stressed that many of my friends at home.  They are more social and derive much pleasure  from their family relationships.  Their children are affectionate and well balanced and enjoy spending time with their parents.  Family time is a priority.  They don’t seem rushed but take time to enjoy each others company.  It looks pretty nice to me.  I guess happiness is not overrated afterall. 

  • Anonymous

    I have many Dutch cousins and travel to the Netherlands often.  The women do seem happier and less stressed that many of my friends at home.  They are more social and derive much pleasure  from their family relationships.  Their children are affectionate and well balanced and enjoy spending time with their parents.  Family time is a priority.  They don’t seem rushed but take time to enjoy each others company.  It looks pretty nice to me.  I guess happiness is not overrated afterall. 

  • http://pulse.yahoo.com/_W4HZORUWPW2PRLCHI2LX4Y3ZNQ Po Fingers

    The only way women will be happy is if a man is in charge: http://goo.gl/obiC

  • http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=1648321085 Jon Anthony

    We all have choices, I can’t believe how hard some people work nowadays. I am 33 years old and work only 5 hours a week and make more than average , because I thought outside the box. Anyone can do it ! http://website.ws/jonanthony

  • Anonymous

    My sister, who lives in California with her husband and two sons, is perfectly content to work part time as a registered nurse. Why not? Her husband is a millionaire working for a billionaire in Silicon Valley. She doesn’t need to climb the corporate ladder if she doesn’t want to, and not everybody wants to. My sister spends more time with the kids, gets to hang out with friends, and do more of what she wants to do. If everybody could work part time and do what they wanted without suffering too much of a financial burden, we would all be happier. There’s a lot to be said for happiness, you know.

  • http://twitter.com/logangraham Logan Graham

    I’m just a seventeen-year-old, so I’m looking for someone more learned than I to answer my question: is this a recent development? Fifty years ago, were stay-at-home wives seemingly more content than today?

    • Anonymous

      Ask Betty Friedan.

    • Claudia Lemire

      It is like today, some were, some weren’t! The great thing about today is that it is a choice!

  • http://twitter.com/rroscoe10 Robyn Roscoe

    To me, the breakthroughs and benefits of feminism have been the freedoms to choose. The fact that choices come with consequences is a reality. Happiness and self-fulfillment should be the goal for everyone – and to hear that someone else might want to decide what that should mean for me is more than insulting. 

  • http://twitter.com/rroscoe10 Robyn Roscoe

    To me, the breakthroughs and benefits of feminism have been the freedoms to choose. The fact that choices come with consequences is a reality. Happiness and self-fulfillment should be the goal for everyone – and to hear that someone else might want to decide what that should mean for me is more than insulting. 

  • Phil King

    For me this brings up a basic question I’ve had for sometime. How is it that since the 1900s we’ve increased productivity in real terms thousands of times over and yet somehow it often takes two incomes to sustain a modest lifestyle while raising children, when only 50 years ago one income was sufficient?

    Is it inflation or are the expectations of today really that much more onerous?

    • Anonymous

      In the 1900s, the middle class was much smaller. Unless they were well off, most women worked both inside and outside the home; they worked in factories, coal mines, did piece-work, took in laundry and sewing, or went into service – cleaning wealthy homes and taking care of wealthy children. Their own children were raised by extended family or caregivers, and went to work in their early teens, if not sooner. Most families did not expect to be able to educate their children or own their own home.

      50 years ago, during the post-war period, the middle class boomed as government invested heavily in housing and education (especially for war veterans), and with the economy on an upswing, there were plenty of secure, entry level jobs available. None of this is true today. The price of housing and education has soared, and, with more and more education required for most jobs (many of which are now part-time or contract), many young people carry student debt well into adulthood, forcing them to postpone starting their own families.

      In many ways the post-war nuclear family, in their respectable, modest bungalow affordably financed by dad while mom stayed home is the historical anomaly, not the norm many (especially those of a conservative bent) like to think it is.

      • Phil King

        Historical interpretations aside, what I’m essentially talking about is the radical increase of productivity (ie. work/person – inputs) over the past century and how so little of it seems to have benefited the average person in any notable fashion over the past fifty years or so. In fact despite this radical increase it seems like we’re losing ground in many ways. Perhaps it’s just a perception, but in either case I think it needs to be considered.

        I look at the many ways we’ve increased productivity, and I am at a loss to understand how it is that people still work as much if not more than they did 50 to 100 years ago. For example we’ve:

        1) Replaced human and animal power with machines, and mechanized many processes.

        2) Increased energy efficiency by many times ie the conversion of energy to things like useful work, process heat or chemical energy in the manufacture of materials.
         
        3) Improved infrastructure efficiencies with planes, railroads, highways, pipelines etc.

        4) Improved work practices and processes: scientific management, mass production, assembly lines, modern business enterprise
         
        5) Improved materials handling: bulk materials, palletization and containerization
         
        6) Developed scientific agriculture ie better fertilizers, GMO’s etc.
         
        7) Developed new materials that increase efficiencies in work as well as new processes for production and dematerialization.
         
        8) Essentially given birth to mass communication through computers, cell phones and the internet which includes aspects like mass data processing and informational uses not even conceived of a century ago.
         
        9) Developed broad and efficient public services like water supplies, household gas networks, home appliances and the like
         
        I’m sure this list could be expanded even, so how is it we’re losing ground?

        • Anonymous

          I think a large part of it is our expectations.  I don’t think we do have to work more than our parents and grandparents did.. if we’re willing to accept what they had at that time.  We’ve come to expect so much more though. We’ve got larger houses now, which have larger TVs and larger closets in them — that we need because we’ve got more clothes that are larger in size because we eat so much more.  Do we have less leisure time, or do we just fritter more of it away on things like making forum posts and watching whatever’s on that big TV at the time?

          I mean sure, a lot of the excess productivity has been collected in the pockets of the wealthiest, but we’re still by and large much better off than our ancestors were more than a generation ago for much less work.

          • Anonymous

            I’m not sure this is entirely accurate. After all things like big sreen
            tvs and other consumer goods have become cheaper and cheaper due to a
            reliance on cheap, foreign labour, but things like housing and education
            have become more and more expensive. For instance the cost of a
            university education in the 50′s, 60′s and 70′s, expressed in today’s
            dollars, is a fraction of what a student would pay today, and having
            that education has gone from a nicety to a neccesity. Same goes for
            housing – it eats up more and more of a family’s income, regardless of
            the size of the house. (Perhaps this is geographical. In Vancouver for
            example 92.5 per cent of the average familie’s pre-tax, income to pay
            the mortgage, taxes and utilities for an average bungalow. The national
            average is 43 per cent). So sure, we can afford more foreign made
            consumer goods, but we still have to work harder and longer to get an
            education, own property, or start a family.  And I’m not sure one less big screen tv will make much of a difference there.

          • Phil King

            That’s true. When I went to university most of it was paid for through grants I received from the federal government, whereas colleagues of mine only slightly a decade or so younger had to borrow their tuition and book fees.

            I have one young friend who did a masters in engineering and ended up $30K in debt at the end of it all despite working full time summers and part time during the school year, and he seems pretty frugal all in all.

            As a result he had to delay his first house purchase even further than he already would have because of the out of control housing costs.

          • Phil King

            That’s true. When I went to university most of it was paid for through grants I received from the federal government, whereas colleagues of mine only slightly a decade or so younger had to borrow their tuition and book fees.

            I have one young friend who did a masters in engineering and ended up $30K in debt at the end of it all despite working full time summers and part time during the school year, and he seems pretty frugal all in all.

            As a result he had to delay his first house purchase even further than he already would have because of the out of control housing costs.

          • Anonymous

            I don’t suppose you have any figures?  I mean, I don’t either, but my gut tells me that the actual cost of the university education hasn’t increased, but tuition now pays for so much more than that. 

            I mean, if we were to contain ourselves to what the university provided in the 50′s, 60′s, and 70′s, would it be more expensive? If we let a university forego being subscribed to all the various digital services that are now seen as pretty much requirements for a decent university, or if we cut the breadth of the course offerings back to those offered to our parents and grandparents? Or if they stopped doing the amounts of research into those esoteric areas that require very expensive equipment and experts drawn from an extremely small pool?

            I’m not saying any of these ideas are good ones, but I’m trying to show that a university education of the 50′s, 60′s, and 70′s was cheaper because there was less being offered and done.  Incidentally, I’m also not arguing that the cost to the student hasn’t risen beyond the extra gains.. our gov’t has definitely dropped the ball on that, but Phil’s original question was about the overall price.  So if you add up both gov’t and student contributions then and now, I think the difference isn’t really that great.. what’s shifted is the emphasis on who’s paying it.

            Same goes for housing. I don’t think it’s likely that much more expensive when you consider the additional size and amenities that folks want these days.  Sure, some areas are way overpriced, but it wasn’t long ago that you could pick up a house in Detroit for 600 bucks, or definitely in the 4 figures range. So that’s just geographical.

          • Anonymous

            I don’t suppose you have any figures?  I mean, I don’t either, but my gut tells me that the actual cost of the university education hasn’t increased, but tuition now pays for so much more than that. 

            I mean, if we were to contain ourselves to what the university provided in the 50′s, 60′s, and 70′s, would it be more expensive? If we let a university forego being subscribed to all the various digital services that are now seen as pretty much requirements for a decent university, or if we cut the breadth of the course offerings back to those offered to our parents and grandparents? Or if they stopped doing the amounts of research into those esoteric areas that require very expensive equipment and experts drawn from an extremely small pool?

            I’m not saying any of these ideas are good ones, but I’m trying to show that a university education of the 50′s, 60′s, and 70′s was cheaper because there was less being offered and done.  Incidentally, I’m also not arguing that the cost to the student hasn’t risen beyond the extra gains.. our gov’t has definitely dropped the ball on that, but Phil’s original question was about the overall price.  So if you add up both gov’t and student contributions then and now, I think the difference isn’t really that great.. what’s shifted is the emphasis on who’s paying it.

            Same goes for housing. I don’t think it’s likely that much more expensive when you consider the additional size and amenities that folks want these days.  Sure, some areas are way overpriced, but it wasn’t long ago that you could pick up a house in Detroit for 600 bucks, or definitely in the 4 figures range. So that’s just geographical.

          • Anonymous

            I don’t suppose you have any figures?  I mean, I don’t either, but my gut tells me that the actual cost of the university education hasn’t increased, but tuition now pays for so much more than that. 

            I mean, if we were to contain ourselves to what the university provided in the 50′s, 60′s, and 70′s, would it be more expensive? If we let a university forego being subscribed to all the various digital services that are now seen as pretty much requirements for a decent university, or if we cut the breadth of the course offerings back to those offered to our parents and grandparents? Or if they stopped doing the amounts of research into those esoteric areas that require very expensive equipment and experts drawn from an extremely small pool?

            I’m not saying any of these ideas are good ones, but I’m trying to show that a university education of the 50′s, 60′s, and 70′s was cheaper because there was less being offered and done.  Incidentally, I’m also not arguing that the cost to the student hasn’t risen beyond the extra gains.. our gov’t has definitely dropped the ball on that, but Phil’s original question was about the overall price.  So if you add up both gov’t and student contributions then and now, I think the difference isn’t really that great.. what’s shifted is the emphasis on who’s paying it.

            Same goes for housing. I don’t think it’s likely that much more expensive when you consider the additional size and amenities that folks want these days.  Sure, some areas are way overpriced, but it wasn’t long ago that you could pick up a house in Detroit for 600 bucks, or definitely in the 4 figures range. So that’s just geographical.

          • Anonymous

            Statistics Canada has a lot of numbers on their website for the last ten years, and here is some stuff I dug up which also uses Stats Can numbers:

            http://www.cfs-fcee.ca/html/english/research/factsheets/CFS-Fact%20Sheet-Tuition%20Fees.pdf (this is a bit out of date in the contemporary section because the provincial tuition freeze, at least in B.C. was long ago cancelled and fees here have doubled since 2001.)

            http://www.cbc.ca/news/business/story/2008/05/15/f-highereducation-tuitionfees.html

            You’re right that universities are charging more, but I don’t know how much of it is because of ‘frills’ or how much is because of technological advances (a medical degree in 1950 would be quite a different animal than a medical degree in 2011).

            But is does seem pretty clear that the burden of who pays for an education is increasingly falling on the student and his/her family, whereas in our post-war boom times, the government paid a larger share.

             

        • Anonymous

          I don’t know what you mean by historical interpretations but the facts are that since the post-war period, governments have provided less and less programs that reduce inequality – so more and more wealth than ever before is being created but it is concentrated in fewer and fewer hands, with less of that wealth benefiting the middle class.

          I suppose it’s similar to the robber barons of the 1900s like Andrew Carnegie and Charles Crocker etc. – they saw massive wealth from technological advancements like the steam engine and greater productivity from things like the factory system, but this did not translate into better living conditions for most people. It took social programs, government intervention, and the mass unionization of the workforce to ensure these benefits were spread.

          • Phil King

            Put that way I have to agree.

            Perhaps the lack of suffering that once brought people together in numbers has faded enough that it has allowed the more selfish aspects of human nature to come to the fore again?

          • Anonymous

            A good theory. Once everyone you know seems to be doing ok, it’s easy to forget how you got there.

          • Phil King

            Put that way I have to agree.

            Perhaps the lack of suffering that once brought people together in numbers has faded enough that it has allowed the more selfish aspects of human nature to come to the fore again?

        • Anonymous

          The amazing productivity growth has not nearly kept pace with the combined increases in inflation, taxation and expectations. Yes, we’re better off, despite the taxation and inflation. But we don’t feel like we are, due unrealistic to expectations. 

          The pressure we now feel to attain unrealistic material wealth and status symbols is identical to the pressure we once felt to meet our basic needs. Our brains and our bodies cannot tell the difference. The stress feels exactly the same, and is capable of causing exactly the same kind of misery and ill health. Even with a full belly and a closet full of clothes and an SUV in the garage. 

          Thus we see consumer debt levels exploding, leading to more stress, and the cycle continues. I fear there will be hell to pay down the road, and sooner rather than later. 

    • Anonymous

      Inflation. Expectations. Taxation. In that order. 

      Try paying a mortgage and raising two kids on one salary nowadays. I’ve got a friend who’s doing it – and starving. I swear he’s losing weight. Housing has more than doubled in cost in just the last ten years and we wonder if inflation is having an effect? 

      Expectations and the desire for instant gratification are far higher than they used to be. Everyone else’s kid has an iPod. Everyone else’s kid went to Disneyland for spring break. Everybody else’s kid is wearing brand name clothes, and getting $2000 in birthday gifts. Good luck limiting expectations. And those are just the kids’ expectations. I haven’t even touched on the ridiculous expectations of most alleged “adults” nowadays. 

      Finally, taxes are down slightly from a decade ago, but still a burden, and the tax system still does not recognize that sometimes two or more people are living on a single salary. We’re told this is coming, but I’m not holding my breath. 

  • Anonymous

    I think the Dutch women have it right. Women don’t have to be corporate tigers to get respect and kids benefit when both parents are not working full time. Part-time is the right balance between some work (to make life more interesting and make some money) but still have enough time to raise kids and run a household. Ultimately though people should do what works for them. Just because a woman decides not to work herself to death doesn’t mean she is weak.

    • http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=706551455 Denis LAPIERRE

      I like the choices that dutch society has made.   They have chosen time over material goods.   Canadians are working more hours than and much of that is because a society we have increased consumption.   This increase in consumption and the culture of the automobile has led to Canadians needing automobiles just to get around their neighbourhood.    If we reduced the size of our homes and our cars, we would not need as much income.  

      I think that the Dutch are more advanced as a society because of the choices that they have made.  The next step will be to give men the  choice to chose the right balance.

  • Anonymous

    I am a Feminist – yet I choose to stay home with my children. I work only when my husband needs help with his business, and I am valued for my contribution to our joint finances when I do so. Equally, my husband chooses to take time out with our children whenever he can, and puts the needs of his children above the needs of his business.  My question is – in what way are my career choices a bad example to future generations of women?  Does valuing my children’s needs above my own potential ambitions make me less equal to my husband? No way! Conversely, does my husband choosing to value his children’s needs over pure profit make him less of a man, or less ambitious? No – absolutely not! The answer is that the world is a changed place.  Modern Feminists understand that “female equality” does not equal “female domination”. Men and women equally want the chance to enjoy raising their children, and to enjoy quality of life.  Men or women who blindly pursue the corporate or academic ladder to the exclusion of all else really have achieved equality in one area – stupidity!  

    • souto mc

      I clicked “Liked” in the absence of a “Really Like it” button. I couldn’t have said it better.

    • http://pulse.yahoo.com/_3OTK7D2T4XFIAOCRNFHDSRJOXE Eddie

      At least one feminist (modern or not, i don’t know) does not understand or accept the choice or distinction.

  • modster99

    This cannot be true. If nothing else, western culture has proven that the key to happiness was finding worth in your work, making lots of money, and achieving as high a status as you can.

    Just look at all the smiling faces. . .

  • modster99

    This cannot be true. If nothing else, western culture has proven that the key to happiness was finding worth in your work, making lots of money, and achieving as high a status as you can.

    Just look at all the smiling faces. . .

  • http://pulse.yahoo.com/_3OTK7D2T4XFIAOCRNFHDSRJOXE Eddie

    Just because some women can’t figure out this whole “happiness” concept, doesn’t mean all women should cast it aside. I am ever so glad that Dutch women have found their balance and are H-A-P-P-Y!! 
    Hey Feminists…leave them women ALONE!!

  • http://www.facebook.com/people/Lisa-Wollmann-Delorme/100000489784982 Lisa Wollmann Delorme

    Hey people.  Ever heard of “Happy wife, Happy life.”
    It’s about choice.  Simple as that.

  • http://www.facebook.com/shreyasanghani Shreya S

    First reactions: First of all, how is this national ‘happiness’ measured? How can something like this be generalized? Second, I’m pulled two ways by this. On the one hand, I completely agree with the fact that the pay gap needs to be pushed to be completely equal. On the other, I don’t want the women’s movement to be co-opted into the idiotic march of progress type corporate globalization structure. A woman CEO does not necessarily a liberated woman make. Here is the thing — is it really a “choice” if a woman behaves in the way that she has been socialized into behaving? Here is where the really interesting bit of the debate comes in — although the ideal for me would be to have an egalitarian society where neo-liberal corporatization isn’t the standard by which success is gauged, as long as we have this, it is imperative that all women of all classes and all colours (and all people of all classes and all colours) receive equal pay for equal work, with special conditions like maternity taken into account. 
     It ends on this faux-positive note, leaves me wanting more. I think this is a complex situation with many aspects to it, a clean little standard web-magazine article isn’t going to be able to be very conclusive about this. I find it funny that people assume they know what ALL women want. A part of me thinks EVERYONE should find work-life balance, whatever that means. Another part of me thinks that as long as it’s ONLY a section of society, namely the female one, that is co-opted into this little box, things are still pretty asymmetrical, even in Holland. :)

    The first few comments by people on this article are truly depressing. Reminds me of the Sally Vickers talk at the Edinburgh Book Festival. Somehow there’s the popular notion of the feminist as the kind of woman who hates men and the idea of romantic love. I’d like to say I am a feminist, and I love men and I crave and seek companionship just as much as the next person. Please don’t dehumanize me for speaking out about my beliefs!

    Also: all these people are singing praises about nothing being wrong with family time. “Her husband is a millionaire, she doesn’t want to climb the corporate ladder…etc.” My point is that if she had not married him and simply been his lover or girlfriend many people would not hesitate to call her a gold-digger, yet another neat little degrading category to put women into. The heterosexual norm of the marriage has lent a whole new aura of sanctity to her living off of her husband’s earnings. Now if a MAN had been doing the same thing – a wave of Dutch men, for instance, then his masculinity and abilities would be called into question. Would there be sunny and happy articles about how liberated the Dutch man actually is because he’s finding family time? I agree, we should all have close relationships we enjoy but this should be free and unrestricted to BOTH men and women – BOTH should get to spend family time and raise children, and BOTH should have a hand in supporting the family in whatever way it needs to be supported. But here again is the fundamental unit of the patriarchal nation-state – the family, and the narrow ways in which it is defined. If you can show me a family unit whose basic premise is egalitarian, and not the implicit sexual control of the family members lower in the hierarchy – in short a non-hierarchical family unit – with no ‘head of the family’ or ‘primary continual breadwinner’ – a family where these roles are easily switchable whenever desired/required — then I will say that the situation consists of choice, equality and awareness. Until then, I remain skeptical.

    Personally, the last thing I want to do is make money my priority in life and focus on making bundles of it. But does that mean I’m going to think it’s ok for those women in professions where they should be paid and treated equally to be discriminated against because they have vaginas? No way! And it’s a way more all-pervasive attitude than obvious, glaring discriminations like that. The stud/slut dichotomy? Representations of female sexuality? It’s a whole system of objectification.

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