John Geddes

John Geddes writes on politics and policy, with occasional reporting and comment on arts and culture.

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Criminals didn’t register guns, but registered guns figured in crime

by John Geddes on Thursday, October 27, 2011 10:45am - 137 Comments

Among the arguments against the long-gun registry, I think the most compelling, at least superficially, was the indignant assertion that gun owners are, by and large, law-abiding citizens who present no danger to society. I know that’s true. Why impose a registration requirement on them?

I’m inclined to respond with smart-alecky questions about similar impositions. Why audit taxpayers when most dutifully pay up? Why ask drivers to blow at those RIDE checks when most are sober? But I fear that many of those who hated the gun registry would miss my rhetorical point and heartily agree that random roadside breathalizers and routine CRA audits should be done away with next.

So let’s stick to the registry for a moment. Since criminals didn’t register, was the system useless? In 2009, Statistics Canada reported that in the previous five years police recovered 253 guns used in murders and, in fact, about a third were registered. Some had been stolen, some used by their owners, some were owned by the victim. In any case, registration records figured in the police investigations and trials.

Did registration help police in tracking down stolen guns that might end up being used in future crimes? Police chiefs certainly told us, to no avail, that it was a useful tool. Critics of the registry dismissed that claim. Yet Statistics Canada recorded 3,100 thefts and robberies in 2006 in which at least one firearm was stolen. Three-quarters were rifles or shotguns. None will be registered now. That will make it less likely owners will report the thefts (especially if, say, they neglected to store their guns properly), and far less likely police will figure out where criminals got those guns if they turn up later at crime scenes or in the arsenals of gangs.

But guns used by career criminals of that sort likely aren’t the biggest concern. So we turn to the saddening matter of suicides, accidents, and violence done by troubled individuals. In 2009, 515 firearms licences were refused and 2,085 licences were revoked, often by judges. Licences will still be required, thank goodness, after this week’s scrapping of the long-gun registry, but police and courts won’t know anymore exactly what guns are in the possession of people previously granted licences, but later deemed unfit to own a gun.

And that means people who succumb to mental health problems, or who have been convicted of crimes but are out on probation, or who threatened a spouse or neighbour, or who show suicidal tendencies. Providing courts and cops with a tool that helped get guns out of the homes of hundreds of Canadians who fall into these disparate categories might even have been worth asking law-abiding farmers and duck hunters to put up with a bit of inconvenience.

Tags: long gun registry

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Anonymous

All tools are at least of _some_ use. So what? That alone is insufficient justification. I can think of many things people are unfit to have. Again, so what?

“It might do some good” is the weakest and last refuge of a proponent of any policy.
Fubar

Enough!
The real debate here is whether Canadians are in favour of firearms, or not. The whole LGR, etc., etc., is just a smoke screen.
I believe that most of the pro-LGR crowd are for the abolition of firearms and are using this issue as a front.
Let’s have a real discussion on this and resolve it on a national level. Because I am sick of hearing all this BS on the LGR when it really makes no sense.
Firearms owners are already investigated, licensed, and charged. What more do you want? Of course the police always want more control. Does that make it right?
Let the LGR go, and stop trying to brand a large segment of the Canadian population as criminals.
Dingo 07

     It would seem from your article that I am not a “law-abiding citizen” just because I own firearms and am against the registry. I didn’t need a gun licence when I went Taliban hunting on behalf of this country, I don’t need a licence when I spend weeks in a field standing in the rain and mud simulating a war to protect the rights half of all the posters espouse to hold dear-does that make me a criminal? I enjoy a pastime that in years past kept food on the table. I enjoy a sport that keeps my skills current and enables me to not end up coming home on the highway of heroes-does that make me a criminal?
     The long gun registry was another money making scam set up to make all “the city folk” happy that the government was doing something about gun-crime. I have to dispute the numbers used in the article pointing out how many registered guns were used in the commision of crimes by their owners. Where did that information come from? Perhaps the association of Police chiefs? Any rank and file police officer will tell you, a check of the long gun registry, when used (a tedious check on the way to a crime scene), is purely for information purposes. They go to all reports with the expectation that a firearm could be present, especially in (oh my god) bigger cities. Heres news for all you liberal gadflies-real criminals don’t register their firearms. And as a note of contention, who besides in idiot uses a long gun to commit a stick up? Even using the authors numbers, only a THIRD of the guns recovered in crimes were registered-Some had been stolen, some used by their owners, some were owned by the victim. So what, how many of that number were used by the owner? Again, criminals don’t register their guns. Another note, for owners of restricted and prohibited firearms, they have always and will always require those firearms to be registered and will always be held to a higher standard in storing, transporting, and using those firearms (and only at an approved range). The government is not doing away with the requirement for gun owners to be licenced, they are doing away with the need for EACH AND EVERY long gun to be registered (under the liberals at $50-$80 a gun-plus $100 just for the licence to own a gun).
     It is probably enough to realize that the gun owners will still be required to get a licence.   And in order for that to happen, you have to take courses-the non-restricted Canada firearms course for long guns (and probably the hunter safety course), then if you want a restricted firearms licence (most pistols are included here) you have to take the course for that, then there is a test after each course (all paid for by the person). Prohibited licences (certain smaller pistols and some collector pieces) are almost impossible to get, as are concealed carry permits (extremely tight rules to qualify-unless you are a politician and decide to flaunt the rules) but they too require a course and test. When you apply for your licence, you must answer a questionnaire, get your spouse or even ex-spouse (don’t have an ex-spouse but what a horror that must be) to sign off that they approve, and then the police conduct a background check on you. And finally, if you want a restricted firearm, you are asked what you want to use it for. If the answer is anything other than useing it at a range then the sale will not be approved. In order to use it at an approved range, you must be a member of a gun club-and take their safety course as well as the federally mandated ATT (authority to transport) course which all cost more money. An awful lot of trouble to get a gun and commit a crime, also very time consuming.
     So, if I am a criminal for being a gun owner, I am a very safety concious criminal. All you poncy eggheads who act horrified that farmers and hunters no longer have to register each long gun they own, just remember-they are still licenced; and criminals don’t register their firearms because it takes too long. So leave the “law abiding citizens” alone and worry about real criminals.

Marvinmanley

Dingo (apt name)

If you think that just because my tax dollars funded the junket for you to engage in some fantasy trip to go and kill poor people in their homeland, think again. Your comments are further proof that armed forces are, at best, a necessary evil. And they need to be kept on a short leash.

Whatever the reasons you were over there, you sure as hell weren’t there to protect my rights. It wasn’t random chance that the US was attacked on September 11, it probably would have been much easier to attack Canada. The US was attacked because successive administrations have spent the past 50 years attacking third world countries, supporting right wing dictators and generally meddling in world affairs to support US corporate interests. Now, you and your fellow Harperites would like Canada to follow that model, even as the US shows signs of moving away from it.

You haven’t made Canada safer – far from it. You’ve made us a target of the poor and disaffected. You’ve made us seem even more like America’s poodle. Well done.

Anonymous

I do believe that you are an idiot. First you should be thanking Dingo and his buddies for putting themselves in harms way to protect this country. And further, it wasn’t Harper that took Canada into Afghanistan. It was your beloved Liberals.

Anonymous

THANK YOU JOHN GEDDES!! You should run for PM!

The Conservatives are trapped by foolish promises made years ago to the gun lobby (Canadian GunNutz) by Harper and his Reform buddies. Their souls have been bought by all the millions poured into the Conservative war-chest by these NRA clones. Too bad for Canada!

Deckardism

Funny how people who resist prejudice and harassment are a ‘lobby’ but other victims’ groups are ‘victims’ groups.’ With your comments YOU are the ‘gun lobby’ because you call your victims into action. Well done.
Anonymous

But the Liberals weren’t “trapped by foolish promises to establish a gun registry”.

Bernie37

Registering guns does no harm but it can do good. I vote to keep it.

Anonymous

Does no harm? At least not until the government’s notoriously porous bureaucracy is infiltrated by third-rate wannabes of organized gangs who use the information to decide where to find guns, and beat the owner(s) senseless, crippling or killing them.

Daily_split

Vision TV has refused to air this week’s episode of Daily Split featuring Edmonton Police Constable Randy Kuntz discussing how rank and file police officers feel about the Long Gun Registry, but you can view the show on our website http://www.dailysplit.com (click on the TV icon on the upper right hand corner of the home page).
Gundog

I can’t imagine someone stealing a $1000 or $1500 rifle and me not reporting it. Do people fail to report car theft because the meter was expired?
Anonymous

There are so many holes in John’s arguments I could drive a Mac truck through. I will make only three points, however. The numbers of thefts and robberies quoted may be insignificant or very significant; we have no idea without knowing the total numbers of thefts and robberies. Additionally, we know that owner registration statistics have been hacked and are available to criminals. That makes gun owners homes a target. I personally know gun owners who would not register for that very reason. The only other point I will make is that the FAC remains in place, and I’m sure I don’t know how the registry has any impact on wackos getting guns.

Come on John, you can do a lot better than this piece of tripe.
Anonymous

So we turn to the saddening matter of suicides, accidents, and violence done by troubled individuals. In 2009, 515 firearms licences were refused and 2,085 licences were revoked, often by judges. Licences will still be required, thank goodness, after this week’s scrapping of the long-gun registry, but police and courts won’t know anymore exactly what guns are in the possession of people previously granted licences, but later deemed unfit to own a gun.

It’s cute that you actually think it’s difficult for someone desperate enough to get their hands on a firearm to get their hands on a firearm. That it’s worth the billions (and the inept bureaucracy, oh, and the surrender of freedom) to keep this sick puppy.

Bottles of Tylenol pills. Those red plastic gasoline canisters, and matches. Nail guns. Kettles. Irons. Hot water heaters. Bridges, cliff edges and staircases. Rope. Lead pipes. Candlesticks. The Rideau Canal accessible to a Nissan Sentra and a bumper car SUV. If you REALLY care about the “saddening matter of suicides, accidents, and violence done by troubled individuals,” you are a hopeless loser if you decide you should care about ONE instrument of death, rather than care about the troubled individuals.
Fresh Blather

Cons…Soft on Crime
Anonymous

And as any law enforcement professional will tell you, the most dreaded call is to a domestic disturbance. Cops really liked knowing if there were firearms in the home to add to an already volatile situation — now they’ll just have to guess. The safest course would be to assume that the guy who’s been slapping his wife around is armed and dangerous.

http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=540300923 Laser Guy

“The safest course would be to assume that the guy who’s been slapping his wife around is armed and dangerous.”

Glad you finally understand!
Anonymous

And if the answer to the query came up negative, do you think they merrily walked in? No, they assumed the presence of firearms. That is the prudent position, and the only one necessary.

http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=540300923 Laser Guy

” None will be registered now. That will make it less likely owners will report the thefts”
What a load of hogwash! A full two thirds of the firearms in this country are not registered.
Millions of firearm owners have also simply said no to licensing themselves in order to posses their own previously legally obtained property. Someone not having a firearms license, and/or owning an unregistered firearm that is stolen, will likely just suck up the loss and not incriminate him or herself by reporting the theft. As long as the simple possession of a otherwise legally obtained firearm, as well as not having it registered on some government shopping list, is a crime. Don’t expect people to turn themselves in by reporting the theft. Why would they want to open themselves up to financially crippling court costs, job loss, and prison? Under these conditions, for most it’s a no brainer. they would just shut up, suck up the loss, and go on with their life..Under the old FAC system (that made no legal owner a criminal) which worked much better, stolen firearms would be reported immediately, be recorded in the CPIC system, and be in effect registered as stolen. The owner could then collect his insurance for the loss, and the police would know it was ‘out there’. The current system promotes crime by criminalizing the theft victim.
The Sooner the CPC realizes this, the sooner we can get back to the VERY effective FAC system that used to exist, and the sooner sanity will prevail in the case of firearms owned by target shooters, hunters, and collectors.
Frank

Good for Harper to get rid of this totally useless bureaucracy but the next question is what do we do with all of the chair warmers the Liberals hired to create this sack of rubbish.
Anonymous

“gun owners are, by and large, law-abiding citizens ”

Unless, that is a government were to make a law they had to abide to — like, say, register their guns — other than the general proviso to not shoot people with their guns.

When governments make such laws, gun-owning dudes lose all taste for abiding…
Szmin

To all those complaining about it being scrapped, has no one stopped to think about how much it is costing tax payers for a flawed system !?!?

People are quick to point fingers, however how many have registered guns and had to pay the ‘gros’ fee attached to it when it was no longer free? Many do not remember those days. As well, who has gone through the hassle to do it properly to only receive 3 – 6 papers in the mail for the same gun registered to yourself? If the system was better laid out from the beginning and the task was much easier we avid hunters would not care so much, but one you have to go through a lengthy process for ever single fire-arm to just have it screwed up on the other end, it is tedious and frustrating.